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The Marshall Protocol Study Site > MEMBER DISCUSSION > Public Questions and Discussion > Stronger immune system delays Th1 disease or speeds it up ?


Stronger immune system delays Th1 disease or speeds it up ?
 Moderated by: Dr Trevor Marshall  

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LeAnne
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 Posted: Fri Jun 24th, 2005 22:47

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I'm sorry to keep bothering you about this topic, but I want to make sure my interpretation of the cwd bacteria article is correct. It sometimes take me awhile comprehending, but once I get it, I get it. Anyway, The cwd bacteria can "hide" within the phagocytes, and in sarcoidosis it can cause granulomas. Nothing in our immune system could prevent the faulty response, because of the way these bacteria are formed and the way they operate. So, regardless if a person eats properly, eliminates properly, and the cells in their body are being nourished properly, these tiny bacteria are going to do their job the way they intend to do it, regardless of what we try to do. Taking the proper measures by using Dr Marshall's Protocol are the only way to fight it. Is what I'm interpreting correct?

LeAnne

Last edited on Fri Jun 24th, 2005 22:49 by LeAnne



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Dr Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Fri Jun 24th, 2005 22:51

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LeAnne,
Yes, that is correct. The bacteria are living inside the cytoplasm of the very cells which are tasked with digesting them. A very clever (and efficient) adaptation which effectively renders obsolete the normal immune recognition and signalling processes.

LeAnne
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 Posted: Fri Jun 24th, 2005 23:00

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Thanks, I've finally got it. :D:D:D

LeAnne



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LeAnne
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 Posted: Fri Jun 24th, 2005 23:08

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If there is a familial link to the bacteria, is there a way to test your family or children for these bacteria, before they cause a vitamin d disregulation? I believe my mother and sisters have these bacteria. I have children and don't want them to suffer from this.

LeAnne



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wrotek
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 Posted: Fri Jun 24th, 2005 23:09

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I feel like donkey walking after carrot put at the end of fishing-rod knowing cure wich i can`t use



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DaveW
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 Posted: Fri Jun 24th, 2005 23:15

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Dear Dr Marshall,

When the CWD first enter the body in their alternate (larger cell walled) form, could one peron's immune sytem perhaps be more adept at killing them off than another's (depending on genetic predisposition, or perhaps dependent on the nature and particular sequence of past pathogens their immune system has encountered)?

I assume that this could potentially explain why all folks are probably exposed to these bacteria, but that only a percentage have the bacteria infiltrate and colonize phagocytes, and thereby develop chronic Th1 disease.  

Am I out in left field here?

Thank-you for any response you care to provide.

Regards,

- DaveW

 



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LeAnne
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 Posted: Fri Jun 24th, 2005 23:18

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wrotek,

Nutrition, and eating right are still important for your body to fight other things. It just doesn't work for these bacteria.

LeAnne



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 Posted: Sat Jun 25th, 2005 04:19

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LeAnne,

Please see this FAQ:

Some of my family members appear to have Th1 inflammatory symptoms.What should they do?

Best,

Meg

desiree
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 Posted: Sat Jun 25th, 2005 07:49

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No, Twinkies are hot dog shaped yellow cakes filled with icing. The chocolate one's are called ho hos I believe. I'll send you a box when your cured.

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 Posted: Sat Jun 25th, 2005 09:07

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Photo of Twinkies for wrotek

The same bakeries that makes Twinkies also makes the chocolate cupcakes with cream filling that Margo described. I gave them all up for my health, but thanks for memories you brought back, desiree. So many people stopped eating Twinkies and other goodies that the bakery filed for bankruptcy protection last year.

I also gave up some very expensive food supplements that I used to take.. that were developed to help the immune system function better. I began taking them before I was diagnosed, on the advice of a nutritionist. They didn't keep me from getting worse, but my finances improved when I stopped taking them. :shock:

Belinda

wrotek
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 Posted: Sat Jun 25th, 2005 10:20

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Nice cookies ,we don`t have them in Poland.

Is there anything that stops or delays this bugs spreading ?
Anything that kills them in a body ?



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LeAnne
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 Posted: Sat Jun 25th, 2005 13:36

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Your immune system kills the bacteria. An elevated 1,25 D causes a faulty immune response. Avoiding the sun and vitamin d foods will help lower this hormone, and thus helping the immune system function better. However, these bacteria can hide from the immune system. It is unrealistic to stay indoors your whole life and never eat foods with vitamin d. The bacteria feed off of angiotensin 2 which your body automatically produces. The only way to get rid of the bacteria is though the MARSHALL PROTOCOL.

LeAnne



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desiree
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 Posted: Sat Jun 25th, 2005 17:40

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Thanks Belinda for the Twinkie visual. I had one (ok 3) last night for medical purposes of course. When my herx gets too bad I feed the spirochetes (they like sugar according to Dr.Marshall) rather than kill them so I don't have to deal with so many cytokines and dead spirochete debris.

Reenie
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 Posted: Sun Jun 26th, 2005 00:45

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Hey Desiree,

Does eating sugar seem to decrease your herx, via feeding the bacteria??? :shock:

Maybe this is why some people herx more or less due to diet... hmmm.... (Reenie ponders)

BTW, this may have something to do with why the chronically ill w/sxs of fatigue crave sweets... ??? (I know there's lots more scientific hormonal and emotional reasons, but this may be part of it)

DaveW
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 Posted: Sun Jun 26th, 2005 04:35

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Desiree and Renee,

I support that observation! I know I go after food (especially sweets) to reduce herx. Problem is, it only works in the short run! (so a person can find themselves eating almost constantly).

I also think that my choice of foods, or the decision; "what do I feel like today?", has evolved into a guess of what I think will result in the least herx.

I am starting to suspect that over the years I have learned a number of ways to (unconsciously) reduce herx, as part of an unconscious development of coping mechanisms to deal with the disease.

For example, I am most comfy in the summer with nothing on but a pair of shorts (indoors). I thought that clothing just made me uncomfortable. Now I realize that the real reason is that any clothing makes me warmer and increases the herx. I unconsciously try to keep myself cool to avoid excessive herx.

I suspect I may be tricking myself in other ways too... but I just haven't been smart enough to figure myself out yet!

Regards,
- DaveW

Last edited on Sun Jun 26th, 2005 04:46 by DaveW



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 Posted: Sun Jun 26th, 2005 10:14

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Hi all,

Just wanted to shed my light on the last pbservations about managing herx with sugars.

I think that this should be the wrong way to go.

Why?

Giving the beasties sugars makes them hide again so they do NOT get killed, make more 1,25D, making it possible for them to jump from one phagocyte/immune cell to the other.

In other words: you are slowing down the killing.

If you would manage the herx in the ways described/prescribed by the MP, by using the meds/abx to manage herx, you do NOT stop the killing, so the road to health is shorter.

On the other hand we know that these bacteria are slow growing, so using sugars won't result in MORE CWDBs IMO.

Concluding: sugars will speed the killing down, but the end-result will be the same, you will just have a longer road ahead of you.

However, it doesn't feel right, feeding these critters and making them survive longer. It feels as if one could move on to higher levels of abx because of an unreal feeling of having a low herx, which could result in an untollerable herx once the killing really hits her/him.

Maybe Trevor can shed his light on this subject? I recall Trevor saying in the 30th of Lyme: "... you want to stay away from SUGARS, you do NOT want to FEED them"

Sincerely, Frans

Last edited on Sun Jun 26th, 2005 10:15 by Frans



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desiree
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 Posted: Sun Jun 26th, 2005 13:31

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Renee and Dave,

I was kinda kidding about my Twinkie therapy. I mean I did eat the Twinkies but not for "medicinal purposes". Although, you guys have got me thinking and maybe I should pay more attention to my body and how it is affected by certain things such as Twinkies,heat (like Dave I try to avoid it), stress, etc.

Frans,

You mention that "giving the Beasties sugar makes them hide again so they do NOT get killed..." Isn't it possible that feeding the spirochetes makes them come out of their hiding places to get a bite to eat (of Twinkies) and MORE susceptible to getting killed by the immune system and/or antibiotics?

Maybe we should ask Dr.Marshall if pulsing Twinkies would be a beneficial addition to the Marshall Protocol.

Desiree

Linda J
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 Posted: Sun Jun 26th, 2005 15:34

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Several things here. I have been under the impression that the more sugar one eats, the worse herxing can be. And I thought that was one of the reasons they were recommending a low carb diet. You can read about the recommendations for a low carb diet here: http://www.marshallprotocol.com/forum2/2434.html


A second thing is that sugar does grow candida, and there is a real possibility that if you start eating lots of sugar before you are well enough to tolerate it, you could end up with candida problems, on top of all the rest of your problems. It will just delay getting well.

Sugar tends to have an addictive effect; the more you eat, the more you want to eat. Sugar stimulates appetite, and weight gain, and increases the risks of developing low blood sugar from rapid blood sugar fluctuations, and metabolic syndrome x. I know that many people with Th1 illnesses struggle with hypoglycemia and insulin resistance already.

I know people would like an excuse to indulge themselves, and they feel half starved on a low carbohydrate diet where their favorite foods are restricted. But it is better to stick to the diet recommendations as they are, and adjust herxing with the Benicar/mino dosing recommendations, rather than trying to find loopholes to allow you to eat junk food.

When I first read the comments about eating Twinkies, the thought occured to me that if it gets out in the general publication that Dr. Marshall is recommending Twinkies as a part of the Marshall Protocol, it will hurt his credibility. People will start refering to the Marshall Protocol as the Twinkie protocol, or some other demeaning nickname.

I’d hate to see that happen. There are already people out there that are trying to find reasons to tear down the Marshall Protocol, and I hate to see them find easy fuel.



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Margo
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 Posted: Sun Jun 26th, 2005 17:05

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I always thought twinkies were chocolate. Ah well. I could almost never convince my mother to buy them.

Margo



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 Posted: Sun Jun 26th, 2005 18:25

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Linda,

This discussion has evolved based on speculation by various members. No one on the Research Team has stated that anyone should eat food high in concentrated sweets (like Twinkies) to control their Herxheimer reactions. That is a gross oversimplification of how CWD reproduce.

I'd like to respectfully ask that we try to limit our discussion to scientific facts regarding Th1 inflammatory diseases and implementing the Marshall Protocol. It is confusing to people new to the website when 'armchair scientists' try to explain complicated issues. Let's please leave that to Dr. Marshall.

Best,

Meg


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