 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
Aunt Diana
Advocate
|
Posted: Mon Jan 8th, 2007 00:21 |
|
My brother, the doctor just sent me this "clipping" and wanted me to find out what the folks at the Marshall Protocol had to say about this condition.
"The presentation of osteomalacia in adults is usually more insidious. Bone pain and muscle weakness are common complaints, and may be overlooked as indicators of vitamin D deficiency. It is estimated in the US and Europe that >40% of the population over the age of 50 are Vitamin D deficient. Although the standard lower limit of the normal range for 25 (OH)D is 10 ng/ml, several studies suggest the cutoff should be 20 ng/ml. Defects in skeletal mineralization may accompany these disturbances in vitamin D and mineral metabolism.
Pain in the hips may result in antalgic gait. Muscle weakness is often associated with osteomalacia but is difficult to distinguish from hesitancy to move because of skeletal pain. Proximal muscle weakness may mimic that of primary muscle disorders and contribute to the waddling gait. Many factors including secondary hyperparathyroidisn, hypophospatemia, and vitamin D deficiency, contribute to myopathy. Fractures of the involved bones may occur with minimal trauma. When the ribs are involved, severe deformities may develop in the thorax, and the collapse of the vertebral bodies may produce loss of height." (taken from Harrison's Textbook of Medicine-- one of the pre-eminent texts in Internal Medicine).
I told him I would respond after I had heard back from moderators. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Please see:
Most researchers fail to consider the alternate hypothesis about vitamin D.
When it comes to vitamin D, the current medical climate of consensus is hostile to new ideas.
Research touting vitamin D's benefits is often biased, methodically weak, and ultimately misleading.
Understanding Scientific Studies
The dairy and supplement industries are intent on heavily promoting vitamin D.
The media is neither well-informed nor objective about vitamin D.
Last edited on Fri Nov 9th, 2007 18:44 by Meg Mangin R.N.
____________________
Lyme 1987, neuro cardio fatigue achiness brain fog depression, anxiety. Pacemaker, D.1,25 32; D <5; 12/07 <6, Oxycodone, lorazapam, benedryl, zantac, colase, Noirs, cover-up or avoid sun, house <30lux. Feb 08 Phase 3. 6/08 D <4, D1,25 21
|
jrfoutin
Member Advocate
| Joined: | Tue Aug 9th, 2005 |
| Location: | Oregon USA |
| Posts: | 3845 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Jan 8th, 2007 02:28 |
|
Aunt Diana,
I love this one because there are so many beautiful answers galore.
First of all, this study only looks at 25D. (Major whoops.) 1,25D and bacteria pathogenesis are critical to understand what is really going on.
Second of all he hasn't seen some presentations that are absolutely essential to understand the study above has flaws:
- Karolinska poster handout is a simple overview of the players, described with molecular genomics.
- The science DVD should be studied by every doctor now practicing medicine. There is a right-click Transcript available with 21 full color pages of slides and discussion in print that goes with the AAEM presentation and allows for non-linear access of the presentation, and is great for references. Transcript isn't as good as Dr Marshall describing science on the video, but it is a good companion study guide.
- LAX 2006 Conference. If your brother doesn't have a copy of the LAX conference DVD then do get one for your brother. Joyce Waterhouse's beautiful presentation on D given at the LAX 2006 conference really answers your question directly in several areas. You can send your brother this link of the PDF download.
The larger pdfs (AAEM transcript is about 7MB, Waterhouse transcript is 1.5MB) are a suggested right click the link and "save target as" to download to computer before opening so delivery and open is sure.
I also have a list of D references to help (see private PM to you). It is always fun to go through a long list of compatible references and this annotated bibliography is significant. --Janet
VITAMIN D Tutorial
____________________
Sarcoidosis 125D61, MP10/05 ModP2 12/05 Ph2 6/06 Ph3 10/06, NoIRs limited outings covered, 2/08 25D6.2
|
tgritton
Member in Phase 3
|
Posted: Mon Jan 29th, 2007 15:23 |
|
Article mentions in passing
“ ... omega-3 fatty acids are poised to become the oat bran of 2007, as food scientists micro-encapsulate fish oil and algae oil and blast them into such formerly all-terrestrial foods as bread and tortillas, milk and yogurt and cheese, ....”
IMO an interesting article, explaining how a combination of special interest politics, poor science and careless journalism are contributing to a mindset, 'nutritionism', leading to a degraded food supply, unhealthy eating habits and more foods MPers will want to avoid.Last edited on Mon Jan 29th, 2007 22:33 by tgritton
____________________
Lyme arrhythmia 125D76 25D39 Benicar Nov05 ModPh1May06 ModPh2Oct06 Ph2Jun07 Ph3Dec07 25D4(Jun08) 0Meds 0Supps Lite90%<30lx NoIRs 2layer clothes glove hat ZnO
|
Russ
Member in Phase 3
| Joined: | Sat Mar 25th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 203 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Jan 29th, 2007 18:11 |
|
| do you have a link for the article?
____________________
Lyme/Borrelia, Connective Tissue Disease | May '06: 1-25D=59 25D=30 | Jul '06: Phase 1 | Aug '06 25D=16 | Oct '06 25D=6 | Nov '06: Phase 2 | Jul '07: Phase 3 | covering up & wearing NOIRs | no other meds or supplements
|
Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
|
Posted: Mon Jan 29th, 2007 18:19 |
|
Russ, I Googled for a phrase from the article and Google came up with a NY Times link, which was too long to put here
You can also find it in this paper, I assume the articles are the same:
http://tinyurl.com/2tvgv3
|
tgritton
Member in Phase 3
|
Posted: Mon Jan 29th, 2007 18:31 |
|
| Yes, is the same article. Last edited on Mon Jan 29th, 2007 18:35 by tgritton
____________________
Lyme arrhythmia 125D76 25D39 Benicar Nov05 ModPh1May06 ModPh2Oct06 Ph2Jun07 Ph3Dec07 25D4(Jun08) 0Meds 0Supps Lite90%<30lx NoIRs 2layer clothes glove hat ZnO
|
Russ
Member in Phase 3
| Joined: | Sat Mar 25th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 203 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Jan 29th, 2007 18:33 |
|
| Thanks!
____________________
Lyme/Borrelia, Connective Tissue Disease | May '06: 1-25D=59 25D=30 | Jul '06: Phase 1 | Aug '06 25D=16 | Oct '06 25D=6 | Nov '06: Phase 2 | Jul '07: Phase 3 | covering up & wearing NOIRs | no other meds or supplements
|
Aunt Diana
Advocate
|
Posted: Mon Jan 29th, 2007 21:05 |
|
How frustrating and depressing!!! I had a boss who used to say "the masses are asses" and I think she had a point.
Hope my language doesn't upset anyone...I mean donkeys.
____________________
Lyme 1987, neuro cardio fatigue achiness brain fog depression, anxiety. Pacemaker, D.1,25 32; D <5; 12/07 <6, Oxycodone, lorazapam, benedryl, zantac, colase, Noirs, cover-up or avoid sun, house <30lux. Feb 08 Phase 3. 6/08 D <4, D1,25 21
|
karin
Member
| Joined: | Tue Mar 28th, 2006 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 17 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Feb 17th, 2007 17:24 |
|
We all know there is so much hype about the "mircale benefits" of D in the news now. I have not fallen for the hype. I understand that it is a precursor to a steroid hormone; and I agree with the MP that we should avoid steroid hormones/immune suppressors in order to keep the immune sytem strong and fighting bacteria.
However, I have come across a recent article which "claims" D is antimicrobial!! http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20061111/bob9.asp
I think this is crazy, but I am interested as to what Marshall and others on board would have to say about this claim. Please let me know. Thanks ~Karin
____________________
Karin-- RA 18 months, researching MP, taking Minocycline
|
bananaboat
Member
| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Utah USA |
| Posts: | 22 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Feb 17th, 2007 17:48 |
|
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but the article talks about how the active form of Vitamin D, 1,25-D, increases cathelicidins and beta-defensin which are antimicrobial -- they help recognize foreign invaderes. This is true and occurs because of the binding of 1,25-D to the Vitamin D Receptor, which in turn has been shown to be involved in these antimicrobial actions. And in healthy people where 1,25-D levels are regulated, that is fine.
But when Vitamin D and 1,25-D are not properly regulated as in Th1 diseases, elevated 1,25-D causes problems probably not observed in most studies which include healthy and sick people. These problems occur independent of 1,25-D's binding to the Vitamin D receptor: 1,25-D interferes with hormones, it supresses immune function, and it inhibits destruction of bacteria -- I guess the opposite of what it would do in healthy people? Perhaps a moderator can help us know if that is a correct explanation.
____________________
Researching MP, dx RA 5/06, taking multi-vitamins & fish oil occasionally, also have brother with fibromyalgia, sister with IBS, & brother with migraines
|
xtian1
Banned
|
Posted: Sat Feb 17th, 2007 17:54 |
|
Yes, there is a rheumatologist who had patients on low dose multiple antibotic therapy for many years and now is in the process of switching his CFS, MS, RA patients to high dose D therapy.
He does his own cultures and claims these doses have antimicrobial properties and are producing herxes and improvements in his patients.
Chris
____________________
PRE MP: CFS, Chl Pneumonaie + Symptoms since 95 ACE:30 D,25:41. D,1,25:69(6/04) D,25:35 D,1,25:87(11/04) D,25:25 D,1,25:45(6/05) D,25: 23 D1,25:48 D,25: 25 D 1,25: 54 (4/07)
|
Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
|
Posted: Sat Feb 17th, 2007 18:09 |
|
Chris,
There are lots of silly rheumatologists in this world - their patients are still suffering.
The mistakes the rheumatologist is making are legion. Let me list the obvious ones
1. Assuming that what happens in culture is what happens in the body
2. Omitting to notice that Vitamin D supplements in his patients actually suppress the ability of the immune system to do its job
3. Not keeping a good log of the long-term progress (actually the relapse) of his patients
4. Trying to understand the body's DNA transcription without a knowledge of molecular biology and the genome
Incidentally, the article in Science News was, I believe, specifically released in reaction to my presentation at the AAEM the previous month. The article was written by a writer who writes a lot of articles for the Vitamin D lobby - do a quick Google search and you will find many more. The sole purpose of that article was to confuse people, IMO.
Bananaboat is roughly correct, but the actual situation is actually far more complex. It would take page after page of complex stuff to write it all out, and I have no time to do that right now.
..Trevor..
|
xtian1
Banned
|
Posted: Sat Feb 17th, 2007 18:42 |
|
I am not agreeing with his therapy. Just thought it was interesting that there are two very opposite camps. I think it is palliative relief and certainly am not jumping on board.
Best in health.
Chris
____________________
PRE MP: CFS, Chl Pneumonaie + Symptoms since 95 ACE:30 D,25:41. D,1,25:69(6/04) D,25:35 D,1,25:87(11/04) D,25:25 D,1,25:45(6/05) D,25: 23 D1,25:48 D,25: 25 D 1,25: 54 (4/07)
|
Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
|
Posted: Sat Feb 17th, 2007 18:48 |
|
Yes, two camps - right and wrong. Knowledge and ignorance.
Sorry to be so outspoken, but there is one Pubmed paper a day being published about the steroidal DNA transcription actions of the Vitamin D receptor.
Look at them: http://tinyurl.com/2xf2rq
Reading the new abstracts keeps me busy enough, and I have to read some of the full texts as well To try and simplify the science down to a sound-bite is stupidity.
|
gulfvet
Banned
|
Posted: Sat Feb 17th, 2007 19:10 |
|
I " Imagine" he is just a pawn for the food supplement lobby.
His hypothesis is based on con gesture why was his ward so deficient in vit d to begin with?
Imagine a day without Ethereal BS
____________________
tick bite and rash in 86 sick ever since, I have had every SYSTEMIC problem assoc. with Th1 except brain shut off. Avoiding D & sun/light 01/07 benadryl occasionaly/started benicar 02/07/07
|
migsies
Member in Phase 3
|
Posted: Sat Feb 17th, 2007 20:18 |
|
I suspect that if the science of immuno-competence were as simple as described in the paper there wouldn't be so many people coming to the MP with elevated 1,25D levels yet so critically ill. Furthermore, I would bet that many MP members have previoulsy tried just about everything, including masses of supplements (with "vitamin" D), to no avail. Clearly, the science is more nuanced and much more complex than portrayed. Sadly, many people will continue to suffer as a result of this half-baked science.
____________________
Sarcoidosis FM Lyme babesia 25D>7(Feb07) Ph1Aug05 Ph2Oct05 Ph3 Jun06 Valium Lyrica Ambien NoIRs limited outings covered Phase I 8/05, II 10/05, III 6/06.
|
eClaire
Member in Phase 2
| Joined: | Mon Sep 25th, 2006 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 520 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Feb 17th, 2007 22:18 |
|
Additionally, what is the effect of an immunosuppressant? When I received steroid shots for a chemical exposure--to suppress my body's response to it--my allergies were suppressed for months following.
Also, even though there were many years where I was not taking any supplements, drugs, or even eating high amounts of Vit D, I never had a cold (indeed, I've never had one in my life), and I rarely, like every 10 years, had a virus. And yet, I was sick, sick since childhood, and getting sicker all the time.
I am sure I am not the only person with this experience. In fact, my brother (okay, I know this isn't fair because we're genetically related) came down with AIDS and was told he had to live in fear of cold and virus germs. Wrong. Other than the last virus that sent him spiraling (a rarity for him--a virus that is), he found he was as immune to colds and viruses after developing AIDS (but not immune to the bacterial infections raging in his body) as he was before--except of course for the AIDS virus, which not everyone gets if they are exposed to it (think it could have something to do with previous bacterial load and how well the innate immune system is functioning?).
Thank you Bananaboat for another brief, clear, and helpful summary even though as Dr. Marshall says, "It's more complicated than that."
P.S. You would laugh at the talk of the doc doing cultures if it weren't so sad.
Last edited on Sat Feb 17th, 2007 22:22 by eClaire
____________________
CFS FMS MCS COPD hypermobility IBS/GERD osteoporosis 125D48 25D8 Ph1Dec06 ModPh2Jun07 NoIRs limited outings covered up low lux home abx brk 3/2/08 to 5/25/08
|
Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
|
Posted: Sun Feb 18th, 2007 01:44 |
|
eClaire,
At our LAX2006 conference I gave a short presentation on the links between Th1 and HIV and Th1 (its a circular process) and Alan Cantwell related his experiences. If AIDS has touched your family, I think you really need to listen to what we both had to say...
|
Joy
Member
| Joined: | Mon Aug 1st, 2005 |
| Location: | Seattle Area, USA |
| Posts: | 250 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Feb 18th, 2007 03:38 |
|
This Science News article about the supposed antimicrobial properties of D was reprinted in Our Toxic Times last month. That's a monthly publication for the chemically sensitive, published nationally. It annoyed me so much to see it in a magazine devoted to thousands of very sick people that I wrote a response to the editor, which I think she is going to print next month. People can read that response below, in my thread Letter to Our Toxic Times. If you have the time, people might want to fashion their own responses when they see this article in publications, and send them off to the editors of wherever it gets printed.
Sorry about your brother, Claire, that must be so hard for your family.
____________________
CFS, FM, MCS, RA, Uveitis, Neuropathy, MGUS, porphyria, low thyroid.
Non-MP Meds: Armour Thyroid, Lotemax steroid eye drop (3/day). Milk thistle, lutein, calcium, probiotics. NoIRs, gloves, hat.
Began Ph 1 9/06, Phase 2 1/07. 25D: 32,17,5,4,4
|
eClaire
Member in Phase 2
| Joined: | Mon Sep 25th, 2006 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 520 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Feb 18th, 2007 04:42 |
|
Thank you Trevor. Unfortunately, my brother died from congestive heart failure a year and a half ago at 53 (that is, he died of the infection he got in his lungs after he was revived and they put shunts into his heart to give him the opportunity to rest and let his heart heal) before I learned about the MP. Once I read the MP, I knew the treatment would have benefitted him as well. As I meet others with AIDS, I will direct them here to those links.
Thank you Joy. It has been hard; I adored my brother. My mother had two kids and both of them ended up seriously ill, and her husband died (my father) when he was 57. She is now ill with Th1 illness (has had some symptoms most of her life, but was never brought down by them and felt very hardy until about 6 years ago), but she would never do the MP (we've talked about it). As far as close relatives go, my mom and I are it in the U.S., and knowing that we are sick and here without family close by is hard on my relatives in N. Ireland and Scotland. Oh well. ClaireLast edited on Sun Feb 18th, 2007 04:43 by eClaire
____________________
CFS FMS MCS COPD hypermobility IBS/GERD osteoporosis 125D48 25D8 Ph1Dec06 ModPh2Jun07 NoIRs limited outings covered up low lux home abx brk 3/2/08 to 5/25/08
|
Current time is 07:21 | Page: 1 2 3 4 5   |
|
|
|
|
