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jcwat101
Research Professional
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Posted: Wed May 23rd, 2007 16:14 |
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We don't have quite as much experience with titanium dioxide, but there have been at least a couple of people that feel it works as well. My impression is that it may not be as good in some ways as zinc oxide (may show up more on the skin for a given concentration).
Some web sites claim that titanium dioxide is not as safe as zinc oxide, but I don't think this is proven. Most of the the web sites that made negative comments about titanium dioxide were selling zinc oxide sunscreens. I guess you will have to weigh your options and decide for yourself.
Joyce Waterhouse
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20 yrs with CFS/FM/Lyme/IBS, food sensitivities; 1,25D/25D 8/04:64/11 1/05:22/6 9/05:1,25D=12 10/06:22/8, 4/07:25/<4 chewed Ben. 40mg q8h; Mod. P2: 2/23/05, P2: 4/06; P3: 1/1/07
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Juanita
Member in Phase 2
| Joined: | Thu May 3rd, 2007 |
| Location: | Alberta Canada |
| Posts: | 242 |
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Posted: Wed May 23rd, 2007 17:13 |
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Pam asked: Is there a specific reason to use zinc oxide? Should I return these products?
Here is a link to Sunscreen Overview. There is a lot of good information about zinc versus titanium dioxide, whether to use both or one, if Ketoconazole cream is better, what products pass muster, etc. Happy reading! http://www.marshallprotocol.com/forum2/7758.html
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MCS, CFS, FM, CS, DH, stroke neuro, seizures, skin ca, IBS, eczema, irregular heartbeat| NoIR avoid light and D| Sept 21/07 25D-40.8ng/ml| May 7, 07 1,25D-35.8pg/ml
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sallee
inactive member
| Joined: | Sat Sep 10th, 2005 |
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| Posts: | 18 |
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Posted: Fri May 25th, 2007 01:31 |
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I have tried two products recently.
The Blue Lizard Sensitive has both titanium dioxide (5%) and zinc oxide (10%). It goes on nongreasy, a little whitish, and has no smell that I can detect. Usually even fragrance free has some smell.
There is also a dry powder called Colorescience Sunforgettable. I haven't decided if I like it or not. It is expensive but you can get a trial package for about $5 online (I don't remember where though-sorry).
One more interesting thing. I recently bought a Coolibar top. They are using nanotechnology to infuse the clothing with titanium dioxide to make it UV protected. Here's a little quote I found on the research, not related to Coolibar directly but the whole concept. Even self-cleaning clothes!
"Backed by financial support from the Innovation and Technology Fund (ITF), PolyU textile scientists have successfully made use of nano-technology to develop a special fabric which can be made into self-cleaning clothes. Self-cleaning garment can achieve self-cleaning function via the Lotus NanoTM surface fabrication technology and the patent pending nano photocatalysis technology. In developing the special fabric at the "Nanotechnology Centre for Functional and Intelligent Textiles and Apparel", Prof. John Xin and his team combined the biomimic lotus leaf nanostructure and nano titanium dioxide coating for greater effectiveness.
The lotus leaf nanostructure and nano titanium dioxide coating built on fabric can defend and decompose stains, dirt, odours, bacteria, harmful gases, and highly water and oil repellent. Self-cleaning garment can effectively reduce the laundering process so as to protect the environment. The self-cleaning garment also possesses excellent UV protection property. The treatment has excellent durability towards washing and normal usage without sacrifices the soft hand and breathability of textile fabrics. The revolutionary breakthrough of the nano titanium dioxide was also reported in the internationally-renowned science magazine Nature (June 2004 issue)."
Sallee
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CFS/FMS, Benicar q4-8h since Aug'05, Aug '05 25D=37,125D=92; May'07 25D=12;
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Ozsandy
Member
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Posted: Mon May 28th, 2007 02:08 |
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Hi All,
Just been reading an article about a sunscreen that is sold in the U.K called "Soltan" it contains a product called Optisol which is an added ingredient that is also nano technology and in not so many words, renders the sunscreen safe to use.
Photostable UVA & UVB Filters.
It is available from "Boots" Chemist's in U.K.
There are several products, one is Soltan Extreme Lotion SPF 40. About $6.99 100ml.
Cheers
Sandy
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R/R Virus90, muscle/jnt pain,OA,whoop/cough as child,cough ever since ,dep past 15yrs, Hormonal/sleep dis,Tinnitus,H/fever,Sinnus/breathing probs Dtests April07 D1,25=40pg/ml 25D3=38ng/ml,Ben June07 q6hr-q8hr[night] Premarin0.3/Pro5% Norspan5mg
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jcwat101
Research Professional
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Posted: Mon May 28th, 2007 16:31 |
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I just did some searching and this is the nanoparticle ingredient in the Boots product that Sandy just mentioned. As far as I can tell, it would probably work alright. Any of you UK MPers who decide to try it can let us know if it seems to work as well as the zinc oxide sunscreens and in general, how you like it.
<<Optisol™ is a milder, longer lasting and innovative new form of titanium dioxide, a commonly used ingredient in sunscreens which acts to absorb UV light. A tiny amount of manganese is incorporated within the titanium dioxide, adding major benefits; the manganese absorbs extra UVA giving a higher level of protection and also acts to stop the formation of free radicals in the titanium dioxide. These effects give enhanced performance which is extremely photostable ensuring that the product's ability to protect isn't broken down by the sun.>>
I don't know how much of a problem free radicals are -- as I have mentioned, those web sites that sell zinc oxide products tend to put down titanium dioxide for this supposed free radical generation. But as I have also mentioned in the sunscreen Overview, both titanium dioxide and zinc oxide were considered safe according to a review of the literature by the Australian government:
Sunscreen Overview - ESSENTIAL INFORMATION ABOUT THE MP (Required Reading) - A
Joyce Waterhouse
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20 yrs with CFS/FM/Lyme/IBS, food sensitivities; 1,25D/25D 8/04:64/11 1/05:22/6 9/05:1,25D=12 10/06:22/8, 4/07:25/<4 chewed Ben. 40mg q8h; Mod. P2: 2/23/05, P2: 4/06; P3: 1/1/07
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Pundun
Health Professional
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Posted: Tue Jun 5th, 2007 21:03 |
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I thought someone in AUSTRALIA might like 4x tubes of ‘Green Screen’, one of the ZnO products recommended of the MP website. I tried this one & the Megan Gale one & had an allergic response to both. The only thing common in both is the ZnO, So I have gone back to using a common titanium dioxide product available in Australia which suits me fine. If it is less effective than the ZnO products, it really doesn’t matter to me that much, as I wear makeup on top on my face & gloves on my hands.
The reason I tried the Green Screen (by Kabana) was that I thought I might be allergic to the preservatives in the Megan Gale one. This one has no preservatives. I’m sure that there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. It is unscented. Inactive ingredients are: spring water,lanolin, shea butter, cocoa butter, jojoba oil, mango butter, natural Vit E, soy lecithin.
I’m happy to post it to anyone within Australia free of charge, if they would like it.
Pundun
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CFS. IBS, hypothyroid, rickettsia, 125D73, MP 1/07, ModPh2 4/07, 3AbxModPh2 6/07, Ph2, 9/07, Ph3 2/08, Noirs, limited outings covered up, low lux home, T3, Calcium, HRT, 25D10
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jcwat101
Research Professional
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Posted: Thu Jun 21st, 2007 17:17 |
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There has been a big study, apparently looking at sunscreen safety and effectiveness. Of course, their idea of effectiveness is not looking at the same issue as we are (vitamin D production), but is geared to prevention of sunburn and sun damage.
It is sort of interesting, though:
Skin Deep: Cosmetic Safety Database - Special Report
I looked at the moderately effective and very safe category and found one sunscreen I use -- the Kabana one. It would not be considered as effective because it doesn't have a lot of chemicals added to raise the SPF to a higher level (and I did not find SPF alone had any relationship to vitamin D production). But since I am not out in the sun a long time, that is fine.
I looked at the very effective and moderately safe category and found the Spectra 3 from Coppertone.
I suppose one could look at the few in their very safe and very effective category and any with zinc oxide (or titanium dioxide) would probably be O.K. on the MP, but they were not brands I'm familiar with, so I can't judge for myself, and some might be scented and might bother some people.
Anyway, theirs is just one assessment of risk and effectiveness, if some chose to look into it they can. I'm satisfied with the two I use.
Joyce Waterhouse
Last edited on Thu Jun 21st, 2007 18:35 by jcwat101
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20 yrs with CFS/FM/Lyme/IBS, food sensitivities; 1,25D/25D 8/04:64/11 1/05:22/6 9/05:1,25D=12 10/06:22/8, 4/07:25/<4 chewed Ben. 40mg q8h; Mod. P2: 2/23/05, P2: 4/06; P3: 1/1/07
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jcwat101
Research Professional
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Posted: Wed Jun 27th, 2007 14:01 |
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I have heard that Coppertone Spectra 3 is going to be discontinued in the next few months. Some people have already had trouble finding it for this reason.
Looking around on the web just now, I do see confirmation that it is being discontinued, but I did see that some places are still selling it, as I suppose they have some on hand.
This site is still selling it and even has it on sale, so if you want to stock up on it, before they are out, you can try ordering some:
Drugstore.com Spectra3
So, those using it may need to think about finding an alternative to replace it.
Joyce Waterhouse
Last edited on Wed Jun 27th, 2007 14:07 by jcwat101
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20 yrs with CFS/FM/Lyme/IBS, food sensitivities; 1,25D/25D 8/04:64/11 1/05:22/6 9/05:1,25D=12 10/06:22/8, 4/07:25/<4 chewed Ben. 40mg q8h; Mod. P2: 2/23/05, P2: 4/06; P3: 1/1/07
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Shadowfeet
Member in Phase 2
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Posted: Thu Dec 6th, 2007 04:16 |
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I have been using mineral make-up from "Everyday Minerals" for a while, because my skin reacts to any other type of make-up. This year they brought out a sunscreen product called "Natural Reflections" finishing powder. It is available in four different shades. This is the Light shade that I use: http://www.everydayminerals.com/g?t=finishingPowder&userSelectedColor=364&sizePicker=&formulaPicker=1
Since it is a powder, you will need a make-up brush to apply it. You don't use much, so it lasts a long time. The powder could also be added to a lotion to apply.
Ingredients: Mica (CI 77019), Zinc Oxide (CI 77947), Titanium Dioxide (CI 77891). May Contain: Iron Oxides (CI 77492, CI 77499, CI 77491).
More information about ingredients, including what the products don't contain: http://www.everydayminerals.com/g?t=viewDocument&incParam=ingredients
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CFS thyroiditis endometriosis 125D34 25D>7Dec07 Effexor Lyrica thyroxine clonazepam OCP NoIRs limited outings covered up Ph1Sep07 ModPh2Dec07 Ph2May08
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jcwat101
Research Professional
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Posted: Sat Mar 15th, 2008 02:01 |
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Knochen has a new recipe for making sunscreen with micronized zinc oxide that some people might want to try out:
http://www.geocities.com/knochen_mp/Sunscreen.html
Joyce Waterhouse
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20 yrs with CFS/FM/Lyme/IBS, food sensitivities; 1,25D/25D 8/04:64/11 1/05:22/6 9/05:1,25D=12 10/06:22/8, 4/07:25/<4 chewed Ben. 40mg q8h; Mod. P2: 2/23/05, P2: 4/06; P3: 1/1/07
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jcwat101
Research Professional
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Posted: Mon Mar 17th, 2008 19:35 |
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I wanted to mention, in case not everyone has seen it, that the Sunscreen Overview has been updated.
See: ***Sunscreen Overview -- Updated Feb. 24, 2008
The main new thing that has been added is an Addendum (see below), that discusses how sun reactions may change over time on the MP and be more delayed and thus harder to detect, though still quite significant. A little more has also been added about the Kabana sunscreen now using micronized zinc, rather than the smaller, more controversial nanoparticle zinc and their coming out with a tinted version.
I really recommend reading this Addendum carefully, especially if you are having trouble with tolerating your symptoms, as it may have a significant impact on your response to the MP. Especially those with organ involvement that is potentially life threatening, should pay attention to this issue.
Joyce Waterhouse
Addendum (Feb. 24, 2008)
Joyce Waterhouse
Some people find that the nature of their sun reaction may change over time. It is important to take this into consideration if you are not progressing adequately, if you are having excessive symptoms or if you have a more serious and long-standing medical condition. Here I give an example of how my own reaction has changed over time. There appears to be a wide variety of responses, so your reactions may differ.
I used to have immediate reactions starting in just a few minutes, including fatigue, weakness, an increase in heart rate and a shaky feeling. And I recovered within a few hours. Now, in contrast, my reaction to natural light exposure (even on a very cloudy day) starts about 30 hours after exposure, peaks two to three days later, and lasts almost 7 days after the exposure and the reaction more closely resembles my typical immunopathology symptoms. This delayed effect, of course, can make it much harder to figure out. For me, it took avoidance of natural light/sun for a while and then a brief re exposure (just 5 to 10 minutes) to reveal the role the sun was playing in my symptoms.
I also now find I notice a much more protective effect from a higher percentage zinc oxide, like Kabana's sunscreen (20%) than lower percentages (like many with 3-10% zinc oxide), and much less effect from other types of products discussed here (Helioplex and Ketoconazole). In fact, I do not find the ketoconazole protecting me at all from the type of reaction I have now. This is despite that fact that it used to protect me from the reactions I used to have.
So, if you think you are no longer having sun reactions, but are having a difficult time with symptoms or your progress, it may help to try to reduce your sun exposure and use a higher percentage zinc oxide sunscreen when you do have to go out to see if that helps your situation over time.
I should emphasize, though, that even the highest percentage zinc oxide sunscreen lets some solar radiation through and this can cause vitamin D production and symptoms. This will be especially significant if a larger area of skin is exposed or the exposure is longer. This is true even if in a car, the shade or in cloudy weather. It should be remembered that one can still get sunburned with sunscreen on even if it is a powerful sunscreen, if you are out long enough. The SPF factor really only means that it takes longer to get to that point than without the sunscreen.
So, avoidance of daytime natural light/sun exposure and, when you have to go out, the use of dark, tightly-woven clothing, hat and gloves, are by far the most protective approaches. Even the strongest sunscreen should not be considered as allowing adequate protection for many of the more sensitive people, but is something some people find helpful, particularly for brief exposures for areas like the face and when other options are unavailable.
Sunscreen use should not be seen as a replacement for sun avoidance measures, but only as a tool that sometimes helps when used in conjunction with sun avoidance measures.
Particularly for people with more serious conditions, I urge extra caution with regard to natural light/sun exposure -- for a few of the most sensitive, even 5 minutes or less of natural light may cause a significant reaction.
____________________
20 yrs with CFS/FM/Lyme/IBS, food sensitivities; 1,25D/25D 8/04:64/11 1/05:22/6 9/05:1,25D=12 10/06:22/8, 4/07:25/<4 chewed Ben. 40mg q8h; Mod. P2: 2/23/05, P2: 4/06; P3: 1/1/07
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Violet
Member
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Posted: Tue Mar 18th, 2008 00:01 |
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Shadowfeet wrote: I have been using mineral make-up from "Everyday Minerals" for a while, because my skin reacts to any other type of make-up. This year they brought out a sunscreen product called "Natural Reflections" finishing powder. It is available in four different shades. This is the Light shade that I use: http://www.everydayminerals.com/g?t=finishingPowder&userSelectedColor=364&sizePicker=&formulaPicker=1
Since it is a powder, you will need a make-up brush to apply it. You don't use much, so it lasts a long time. The powder could also be added to a lotion to apply.
Ingredients: Mica (CI 77019), Zinc Oxide (CI 77947), Titanium Dioxide (CI 77891). May Contain: Iron Oxides (CI 77492, CI 77499, CI 77491).
More information about ingredients, including what the products don't contain: http://www.everydayminerals.com/g?t=viewDocument&incParam=ingredientso you use the foundation and the finishing powder?
Do you use the foundation and the finishing powder, or is just the finishing powder enough? Their products are very reasonably priced. It seems as though it will balance out some of that white look the zinc oxide sunscreen causes. Do you have a problem with your makeup brushes getting gummed up from the sunscreen?
Thanks,
Violet
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Researching MP; Chronic Fatigue and Fibromyalgia, MCS and Multiple Food Sensitivities
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jcwat101
Research Professional
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Posted: Tue Mar 18th, 2008 00:23 |
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Violet,
I have never used these and the web site says they are not allowed to use SPF ratings, so I would not be confident in these products offering significant protection.
Using them over another, high % zinc oxide sunscreen would be O.K., though.
But, as far as the tint, in about a month, there will be a tinted Kabana sunscreen -- the tint is barely noticeable and is much better than the white, IMO. If one has time to wait an hour or two after putting the Kabana on before adding something else, I think it might work better, but I don't use makeup so don't know about that aspect.
There is also a Glycolix product that you could try, in the new sunscreen update, though I haven't tested it. It is 17% zinc oxide (the new Kabana version will be 25%).
Joyce Waterhouse
Last edited on Tue Mar 18th, 2008 00:27 by jcwat101
____________________
20 yrs with CFS/FM/Lyme/IBS, food sensitivities; 1,25D/25D 8/04:64/11 1/05:22/6 9/05:1,25D=12 10/06:22/8, 4/07:25/<4 chewed Ben. 40mg q8h; Mod. P2: 2/23/05, P2: 4/06; P3: 1/1/07
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Shadowfeet
Member in Phase 2
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Posted: Sat Mar 22nd, 2008 07:05 |
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Violet
Do you use the foundation and the finishing powder, or is just the finishing powder enough? Their products are very reasonably priced. It seems as though it will balance out some of that white look the zinc oxide sunscreen causes. Do you have a problem with your makeup brushes getting gummed up from the sunscreen?
Thanks,
Violet
Hi Violet,
I always use the sunscreen finishing powder, and sometimes use the foundation as well.
As Joyce mentioned, these products don't have an SPF rating, so you really need to use another zinc oxide sunscreen with them.
To avoid the make-up brushes getting gummed up, I put liquid sunscreen on after I have put the powder on - or I add some of the tinted powder to the liquid sunscreen and mix them together, which works quite well. I hope that helps you.
Mel (Shadowfeet)
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CFS thyroiditis endometriosis 125D34 25D>7Dec07 Effexor Lyrica thyroxine clonazepam OCP NoIRs limited outings covered up Ph1Sep07 ModPh2Dec07 Ph2May08
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Violet
Member
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Posted: Tue Mar 25th, 2008 13:57 |
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Thank you Joyce and Mel. Yes, I will use it along with my zinc oxide sunscreen. I'll try mixing it in, and if the sunscreen is too thick and that doesn't work, I think I'll try applying it with a cotton ball because the zinc oxide gets in the brush and the brush gets sticky. Mel, I just got my FREE samples from everyday minerals yesterday. It's a very good product, and it's very reasonable priced. Thanks for telling us about it.
Violet
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Researching MP; Chronic Fatigue and Fibromyalgia, MCS and Multiple Food Sensitivities
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jcwat101
Research Professional
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Posted: Wed Apr 9th, 2008 19:06 |
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I added a note in the Sunscreen Overview and will probably add more information as I acquire it, so you might want to check it now and then.
***Sunscreen Overview -- Updated Feb. 24, 2008
It is regarding the potential for using more than one coat of sunscreen when one has to be outside for a longer period of time. I have now used as many as 3 or 4 coats on a few occasions when I was going to be outside for several hours and it was very helpful. The product says it can be reapplied as needed (I use the Kabana to obtain the maximum protection -- it's 20% zinc oxide and new formula will be 25%). By applying it several hours apart (or at bedtime and in the morning), it avoids being too greasy. This could help with other zinc oxide sunscreens too, but the higher the % zinc oxide, the better.
I was recently on a trip where I was outside or in a car for more than 5 hours each day for several days in a row. Based on what I have learned from recent experiences, I could not have done at all well if I had only used one coat of Kabana on my face and neck. By wearing my hat and NoIR sunglasses and my gloves a lot of the time and the 4 coats of Kabana on my face, neck and hands, I did fine, however. This may not be true for everyone, as some are a lot more sensitive. People who are sicker should be especially careful, as the above thread says.
Joyce Waterhouse
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20 yrs with CFS/FM/Lyme/IBS, food sensitivities; 1,25D/25D 8/04:64/11 1/05:22/6 9/05:1,25D=12 10/06:22/8, 4/07:25/<4 chewed Ben. 40mg q8h; Mod. P2: 2/23/05, P2: 4/06; P3: 1/1/07
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arhayw
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Fri Apr 25th, 2008 23:23 |
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Here's another anecdote for the sunscreen files...
I've been using ZO moisturizer (TJ's and etc.) and then applying mineral makeup powder mixed with straight micronized ZO powder to my face. I'm estimating a 75+% ZO content overall. Wearing makeup is obnoxious to me, so in the past have only worn it when going out in the light, but wearing it at home will be a part of my routine for now too (blessed bother!! ) because it seems to help me tolerate sitting in front of the computer better. Makes quite a distinct difference, actually. Maybe this might help others...
Renee
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CFS FM hypothyroid 125D56 25D99 Ph1Jun04 25D30(Nov07)25D24(Mar08) Ph2Mar05 Ph3May06 abx brk Sep06 r/t KFTs Ph1Dec06 ModPh2Jul07 Ph1Jan08 25D37(Feb08) abx brk Feb08 r/t >sxs Cytomel Calcium NoIRs occ outings covered
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jcwat101
Research Professional
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Posted: Sat Apr 26th, 2008 03:09 |
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We generally only worry about light from the computer screen affecting the eyes and hence wear the NoIRS. We haven't thought that the light from the computer screen on the skin would have an effect, but you never know.
If anyone else notes something similar to what Renee has found, you could let me know.
Joyce Waterhouse
Last edited on Sat Apr 26th, 2008 03:11 by jcwat101
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20 yrs with CFS/FM/Lyme/IBS, food sensitivities; 1,25D/25D 8/04:64/11 1/05:22/6 9/05:1,25D=12 10/06:22/8, 4/07:25/<4 chewed Ben. 40mg q8h; Mod. P2: 2/23/05, P2: 4/06; P3: 1/1/07
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mndymplol
Member
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Posted: Sat Apr 26th, 2008 13:10 |
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Joyce
I have wondered about whether light contained in the flourescent spectrum could have some effect for a while. I have a skin condition caused DSAP so I have had to be careful and use the best sunscreen I could find for 20 + years. One thing about DSAP (it is a dysregulation in the keratinocytes' production of keratin) is that it is definitely affected by flourescent lights. Doctors are told not to try to diagnose this condition in the presence of flourescent light. I think that less is known about this than you guys know about Th1 and how light affects Vit. D production but this continues to roll around in my head and makes me wonder. I am truly hoping that when I am finally able to start the MP for myself I will find out that this is a Th1 disease also. I'll just have to wait and see.
Mindy
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Pre MP/ Mom of Caitiegirl(17)chronic headache, mental fog/
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jcwat101
Research Professional
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Posted: Sat Apr 26th, 2008 14:37 |
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Mindy,
Thanks -- that's interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if it is a Th1 disease. You might even see if some of the sunscreen strategies mentioned here work even better for you. Do you use one with a high % zinc oxide?
Joyce Waterhouse
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20 yrs with CFS/FM/Lyme/IBS, food sensitivities; 1,25D/25D 8/04:64/11 1/05:22/6 9/05:1,25D=12 10/06:22/8, 4/07:25/<4 chewed Ben. 40mg q8h; Mod. P2: 2/23/05, P2: 4/06; P3: 1/1/07
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