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Aussie Barb
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| Joined: | Thu Jul 22nd, 2004 |
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Posted: Sat Feb 19th, 2005 00:43 |
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How To Identify Immunopathology (Herx, IP)
The Phase One Guideline states: Immunopathology is an increase in your present Th1 inflammation symptoms, or a return of previous Th1 inflammation symptoms, that is caused by cytokines and endotoxins being released from the dying bacteria. Your immune system reaction will be unique to your systemic Th1 inflammatory involvement.
The following is only a partial list of possible immunopathology symptoms: fatigue, muscle weakness, rash, headache, photosensitivity, pain anywhere, numbness, nausea, diarrhea, constipation, ringing in the ears, toothache, sinus congestion, nasal stuffiness, fever/chills, flu-like bodyache, cough, irritability, depression, sleep disturbances and ‘brain-fog.’
Any symptom, including abnormal lab results, that correlates with MP therapy is probably due to immunopathology.
The increase in symptoms due to immunopathology typically begins 1-24 hrs after the minocycline dose and usually dissipates 12-24 hrs before your next antibiotic dose. Many patients find that the reaction is strongest on the second day.
Immunopathology symptoms are varied, some are unexpected
Immunopathology symptoms are your disease symptoms revisited. The immune system reaction also reveals areas of inflammation still subclinical (hidden). You can assume (until proven otherwise) that any symptom you now have while on the MP, is due to an immune system reaction. Although these symptoms may be similar to your disease, unlike disease symptoms, they are a sign that something is being accomplished-killing of the intracellular bactera. Look at them as a welcome challenge and expect to one day be the victor over your disease.
Many have expectations of which symptoms they can expect to count as immune system reactions and that anything outside of that is unexpected and therefore not immunopathology. However, there will be many and varied symptoms appear as you progress thru the MP. Some of the symptoms that appear as immunopathology may be familiar symptoms, some of them will be most unexpected. You may be alarmed but there is no cause for alarm.
Dramatic waxing and waning of immunopathology does not always happen. An increase in symptoms may be constant.
If extra Benicar reduces a symptom, you can be sure it is due to immunopathology but lack of response to Benicar does not rule out immunopathology. Palliative medication may reduce symptoms of immunopathology also.
Neurological immunpathology (click here) that affects the brain can be difficult to recognize. These symptoms include apathy (flatnesss, sluggishness, no incentive), feeling paralyzed by misery, anxiety and depression.
Immunopathology is often mistaken for allergies or infection.
Immunopathology vs. disease progression
In folks on the MP, most, if not all, symptoms are due to Th1 inflammation. The MP unavoidedly exacerbates these symptoms, some of which will have previously been subclinical. MPers can correctly attribute any or all symptoms as being due to immunopathology and not a progression of the disease. After all, how can the disease progress the CWD that caused it are being killing? ..Trevor..
Most disease symptoms progress slowly. Immunopathology symptoms usually flare quickly.
Benicar and antibiotics do not directly cause symptoms
Immunopathology symptoms are not a 'side effect' of the MP medications. Dr Marshall says: "All of those symptoms are caused by the disease, not directly by Benicar or the other antibacterial drugs. The symptoms can be treated as immunopathology, and the meds adjusted if necessary."
Immunopathology is to be expected
The Marshall Protocol is a curative therapy and it is normal to feel worse before symptoms resolve. Remembering that fact will help you (and your family) manage the MP, both physically and mentally.
If you are feeling worse, you are killing bacteria and the MP is doing what it is supposed to do. Remember this is temporary. You will come out of this dark tunnel to see better scenery at the other end.
Most find it easier to have managed discomfort when there is the determined choice and purpose of moving forward to healing and health with MP.
"Based on everything I know about the way the bacteria have parasitized the immune system, and the way they affect the body's molecular chemistry, I am sad to say that it seems 'no pain, no gain.'
I suspect we will find some palliative techniques as time goes by, especially for pain, but the starting point is relatively unpalatable, I am afraid. This is, of course, one of the reasons why nobody has been able to develop a therapy until now. Until you understand the pathogenesis, there is no way that "no pain, no gain" makes any sense. But when you understand how the bugs are wreaking their havoc - it all becomes crystal clear." ..Trevor..
Using lab tests to track immunopathology
-With chronically ill patients, it is common to disassociate from one's feelings and therefore it can be difficult to determine the sometimes subtle shifts associated with Herx reactions. As the old saying goes "I've been down so long, it is beginning to look like up. My use of lab tests is to help determine pace of therapy especially if degree of Herx reaction is difficult for patient to interpret. ~Greg Blaney, MD
The goal is tolerable immunopathology
The MP goal is to achieve and maintain tolerable immunopathology (physically, mentally, and emotionally) by adjustment of medications dosing and schedule, combined with the essential aspects of diligently avoiding sun/lights and vitamin D.
Those who have had to bear strong disease symptoms, may have more difficulty defining the line between tolerable and intolerable immunopathology symptoms.
Managing immunopathology
Phase One is the training ground to learn how to manage immunopathology...a time for feeling and finding whatever medication schedule works best for you and adjusting MP meds to achieve tolerable immunopathology.
If you are having problems, see My immune response/symptoms are too strong. What should I do? and compare this information with your current experience. This will help you to gain valuable experience to identify your symptoms at the first step in to achieving and maintaining tolerable symptoms at all times.
If you are concerned about any symptoms, do not hesitate to contact your Doctor
Immunopathology is part of a long journey of recovery
"It doesn't matter how long it takes. You have started on a lengthy jourrney, and the extra pain of speeding beyond a comfortable pace will not yield a comparable reduction in the length of the journey."
If you do not seem to be experiencing any immune system reactions, this FAQ may provide some insight Why isn't the MP working? What am I doing wrong?
Last edited on Sat Dec 22nd, 2007 14:20 by Meg Mangin R.N.
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Barb: Dx Inflammatory Disease Endocrine Imbalance 2003| 24+ years not Dx| ABCofMP
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Meg Mangin R.N.
Research Team
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Posted: Fri Dec 30th, 2005 01:49 |
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(filelink)
New symptoms due to immunopathology
The MP can't create new inflammation because it can't make bacteria appear where there weren't any bacteria before. When we get new symptoms that we haven't had before, surely it's because the MP is exposing more bacteria in places we didn't realise we had them.
Now, if we didn't do the MP, these hidden bacteria would not remain hidden for ever. Eventually they would multiply to the point where they would reveal themselves in new symptoms. So, if one stops the MP prematurely, not only will the 'new' symptoms remain and worsen, but also further new symptoms will gradually develop, just as they would have done if one had never done any MP.
For example, I was not aware of any heart trouble with my sarc. But on Phase 1 of the MP I had a couple of scary episodes that felt like heart pain. If I hadn't been on the MP, the bacteria affecting my heart would be freely multiplying year by year until the time that my heart might be seriously weakened and I would be in grave danger.
What I'm saying (rather long-windedly!) is, if you stop the MP, you don't go into a stationary state exactly the same as you are now - you continue to deteriorate. You don't tread water, you drown. ~Julia
Anxiety regarding new symptoms
The symptoms you've asked about have been reported by others on the MP. The exact molecular mechanism for them is obscure and a topic best left to the scientists. The simple explanation is that Th1 inflammation during the disease process and during immunopathology affects a wide variety of biochemical processes.
Dr Marshall says: "All of those symptoms are caused by the disease. Your organs will be weak, that is caused by the inflammatory disease. If you are typical of the folks who come looking to the MP for relief, then you have a body which is very ill. It is systemically ill, there will be no part of it that has totally escaped damage. The biggest issue, IMO, is trying to micromanage the healing process.
Wanting to know specifically why certain symptoms occur is micromanaging. We do not have the resources to provide detailed explanations nor are they necessary to your recovery. Please be patient with the protocol....in time you will forget you ever had these symptoms.  ~Meg
-I've been driving myself crazy wanting to slip every symptom into a neat little category -- Herx, Hormone Readjustment, Old Symptom Revisited. Today I think I will try something different: breathe, just let things BE and have faith that 'this too will pass'. ~Desert Marie
See:
Will immunopathology increase eye inflammation?
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Aussie Barb
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| Joined: | Thu Jul 22nd, 2004 |
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Posted: Sat Mar 4th, 2006 06:04 |
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Members relate their experiences with immunopathology
With neuro immunopathology:
-I have nooooooooo incentive but yet I don't feel depressed.
-I just feel like my brain has shut down.
-Also, I am having more difficulty finding the right words
-Been having trouble sleeping lately.
-Sometimes (when I talk faster than my brain is working) I stutter. I never used to stutter and have always been a good speaker. -sometimes I will stop what I'm saying mid-sentence because I forget what I was saying or the effort of completing the sentence or thought (by finding the right words and putting things in the right sequence) just seems too exhausting. I often will start talking and then say "oh never mind." This irritates people after a while.
-It is my observation and experience that the Herx is one of the most
difficult things for people to understand. When symptoms "act up" they get the jitters - understandably, due to the years of disease and being so symptomatic. Many feel they are getting worse... But when the symptoms do occur as they do with Herx - I have witnessed that symptoms begin to fade and then never re-appear...
Herx is an on going process of healing and very much a part of the Marshall Protocol. It takes time - patience - and great deal of perseverance - to ride this out. For many who have been on the MP for a long period of time - the valley and mountain feelings have been plentiful. But the end result is so worth the journey. ~Ms Dale
-Chance events or environmental factors may complicate correct analysis of immunopathology. Suppose my reading of symptoms should take into account that herx produces base symptoms plus vulnerabilities. Intensification of symptoms out of proportion to the usual herx pattern may result when chance events or environmental factors act on the vulnerability to potentiate herx signal. Thus complicating time series analysis greatly and leading to incorrect interpretation of signals.~tgritton
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Barb: Dx Inflammatory Disease Endocrine Imbalance 2003| 24+ years not Dx| ABCofMP
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Aussie Barb
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Posted: Fri Mar 10th, 2006 13:40 |
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Back pain can be immunopathology
see Back pain link in PAIN CONTROL thread
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Barb: Dx Inflammatory Disease Endocrine Imbalance 2003| 24+ years not Dx| ABCofMP
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Aussie Barb
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Posted: Tue Oct 24th, 2006 01:39 |
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How to lessen incapacity caused by immunopathology
Immunopathology is a combination of innate and adaptive immune responses and associated symptoms as well as symptoms related to detoxification. One can help lessen the incapacity experienced due to these immune system reactions by:
-Minimizing exposure to other sources of toxins, including airborne chemicals and pollutants, food containing additives or other chemicals, unnecessary meds, poor water etc.
-Maximizing quality of food, water and air
-Avoiding unnecessary stress
-Resting during day especially if having sleep problems
-Keeping a perspective that symptoms, though unpleasant, are rarely life threatening and will diminish with time
-Remember the bacteria do influence your thinking.....encouraging self-sabotaging activities.
Attitude greatly influences the intensity of immunpathology
We know that the attitude of the person greatly influences the intensity of the reactions. If the patient does not react with fear and uncertainty, then their ability to cope increases and allows them to progress further. Remember, most of the symptoms experienced is a reflection of the body's reaction to the increased toxic load and amped up detoxification and elimination process and not a deterioration.
I often use the analogy of a broken leg. Because the patient is confident that they will heal, they tolerate the pain and limitations well. But if they are uncertain about recovery, every symptom has the potential of increasing anxiety and stress which only aggravates the problem.
In my experience, one must expect an aggravation of symptoms during the early phases of the MP, that is phase 1 & 2.
So, if someone cannot handle the immune system reactions, then they should re-evaluate whether this is the right time to correct this disease or not.
It is vital in my opinion that anyone with a complex and chronic condition, no matter what label is attached to it, and is interested in approaching it from the Th1 paradigm, have a knowledgeable and interested supervising physician.
One can tolerate significant symptoms if one is reassured that they will pass. I have found that by 'proving' (doing it myself) the MP, I am able to, confidently, not only reassure but to also even predict the type of reactions patients can expect.
I also can state the improvements that I have witnessed personally as well as with other patients. I can also reassure them that the meds and dosages used are extremely safe, especially in comparison to more traditional therapies.
The bottom line is that for one to have the reactions you allude to, on the meds that you are taking, must mean that you are experiencing immunopathology, that you are reducing your bacterial load, that you are experiencing an amping up of pre-existing symptoms including psychological and should improve markedly once you have completed enough of the therapy.
Sickness means loss of function
When patients describe how ‘sick’ they are, they 99% of the time are talking about symptoms.
(However) Loss of function, either determined by clinical or laboratory findings or the capacity to perform physical or mental tasks, is the determinant of ‘sickness’.
This difference allows me to allay patients’ anxieties while they proceed through the ‘healing crisis’ that the MP provokes and also alerts me to possible problems which could be interfering with the therapy.
With chronically ill patients, it is common to disassociate from one's feelings and therefore can be difficult to determine the sometimes subtle shifts associated with Herx reactions. As the old saying goes "I've been down so long, it is beginning to look like up."
"I truly believe that Th1 patients no matter what their diagnosis is react similarly. The biggest problem is that people equate symptoms to disease. Symptoms are a reflection of the body’s innate response to correct imbalance and to eliminate toxins. (For example)The symptoms of food poisoning is very unpleasant but are extremely effective in rapidly eliminating toxins.
My mantra with my MP patients is ‘Great, you are effectively eliminating the bugs and their toxins and with such as safe therapy (no IVs etc) and it will pass’. I think every practitioner using the MP should do it so they can confidently reassure their patients and/or anticipate the reactions that they will likely experience.
I also, during follow up, identify the positive changes that have occurred but which are often ignored by the tendency of patients to focus on their symptoms."
"Herx reactions are caused by release of toxins and the apoptosis (die off) of infected cells. People with effective detoxification and elimination systems may not experience significant aggravation of symptoms. Some of my patients just experience gradual improvement in health. Others experience mild loss of stamina, periodic night sweats or emotional swings.
I would suggest evaluating present condition with that which was present prior to starting the MP. Most patients with a diagnosis of borrelia have significant physical or cognitive loss and have received other therapies prior to them starting the MP. Some of these therapies can result in delayed or reduced Herx reactions.
Finally, if the major complaint is neurological, improvement is often seen only after a number of months on phase 3."
Greg Blaney, MD
"I preferred to label all my symptoms as being due to immunopathology as a means of maintaining a positive attitude that they would go away. And what do you know, they did." ~Meg Mangin R.N.
Develop a positive attitude
You should write that good stuff down, as well as the bad things that happen. You'll forget what it was like in the beginning, you honestly will, and having a written record to look back on is the way to go.
That being said, you are going to have ups and downs on the MP - you will feel worse sometimes. It's part of the healing! But you'll also have days where you feel like your old self again, and that is where you are eventually headed. However, if you keep allowing all the negative thoughts to intrude, you are going to have a hard time keeping up with the MP. You need to come up with some ways to derail those negative thoughts. Really, it's as important as any other part of the protocol.
Somethng you should consider is the effect the worry and stress has on your body chemistry. In a word: Cortisol. You produce it when you are under stress. It's immunosuppressive, as you might suspect. Frankly, I think the bugs may take an active role in causing you to have stressful and negative thoughts just so you will produce more cortisol. After all, it creates a more favorable environment for them, doesn't it? The strains of Th1 that managed to create this effect had an advantage over those that didn't, so there is a good evolutionary reason for them having this capability. Parasites do influence the host, that's well documented.
The bottom line is that YOU have to short circuit the behavior, or you are just playing into the bugs' hands. You say, "This is just the way I am" Well, you've had these bugs for a long time, and they have probably had a major influence on "who you are". So get mad at 'em for messing with you and do something else. It's not easy, but it can be done. I'm the original "I'm-having-a-bad-day-please-don't-spoil-it..." kid, so I know how hard it can be to change. But if you expect to succeed, you'll need to do all you can to help yourself. Remember, you are more highly evolved than the bugs and can outwit them. 
If at all possible, try to be almost idiotically happy about the littlest things as often as possible. Overdo it. It actually works. It's like wagging the dog's tail. He gets happy even though it shouldn't work that way. Say you look at, I dunno, a box of tissues and think about how neatly folded they all are in there in the box and the cool machine that folded them up and the long and amazing trail that resulted in them belonging to you (all for an amazingly low price) and say "Yay!" like a little kid and clap your hands with glee. You will stimulate the chemicals in your body that happen when you have "real" joy. Parts of your brain can't distiguish between simulated and real, and you can trick them into a good state. A movie can make you laugh, even though it's just colored lights and vibrated air, right? Your brain doesn't care how you get there, but you have to get there! Laughter really is good medicine. And if you can't find enough things to laugh and say "Yay!" at in this world, you aren't looking very hard.
Conversely, when you find yourself having a negative thought, step on it right away. It's your enemy, it's trying to make you sicker. Treat it accordingly. Tell it "NO". Then "get happy". Get in the habit of that and it will get easier with time. And if you find that it feels good to wallow in misery and stress, that should tell you that something is getting a benefit from it. And I wonder what that something might be? Hmmm. Could it be.... BUGS??
You are fighting a war on numerous fronts here, and you can't neglect any of them. Taking care of your mental state is just as important as the pills. Stop looking for reasons why you shouldn't be on the MP. Set yourself up to win and your chances for rapid recovery will be vastly improved.
Congrats on the new herxing- embrace it. It's your new friend, even if it does tend to eat crakers in bed and make you uncomfortable.
All together now... "Yay for the internet and pixels and stuff!!" <childish clapping> See? I know you are smiling over there!!
~Knochen
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Barb: Dx Inflammatory Disease Endocrine Imbalance 2003| 24+ years not Dx| ABCofMP
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Meg Mangin R.N.
Research Team
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Posted: Wed Jan 10th, 2007 20:44 |
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(filelink)
You need to feel worse before you feel better
The hardest concept for people to grasp is that of the immunopathology reaction – the fact that a rise in intensity of symptoms is not a sign that the disease process is advancing, but a reflection that the immune system is active and killing bacteria. We have been hardwired to equate symptoms with disease, but what many people do not realize is that all disease symptoms are the result of an immune system response.
If a person gets infected with a virus, the rise in symptoms they display is not caused by the virus, but the response of the immune system to the virus. Once on the MP, some patients report intense exacerbation of symptoms, severe lightheadedness, or profound fatigue, and are convinced that they are getting sicker. I have to assure them that what they are feeling is the natural result of their immune systems dealing with toxins, cellular debris and the remains of dead bacteria. Europeans are usually more open to the idea, but North Americans have really been brainwashed to equate symptoms with disease.
In cases where people have trouble grasping this concept, the biggest hurdle is to get them through the first phase of the treatment when the immunopathology is often strongest. If I have any dropouts, they come from this group – the people who can’t intellectually grasp the idea that they need to feel worse before they get better. ~Greg Blaney, MD
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