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tickbite
Member
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Posted: Tue Dec 18th, 2007 12:55 |
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GeorgeinRollaMO wrote: What IF "original sin" is being infected with CWD at or close to conception?
Thank goodness we aren't all sitting down at a table.hahaha.
i'm out! 
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"Lyme","CFS", Meningitis
Phase3 8-2-07, MP on hold 11/2007
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GeorgeinRollaMO
Advocate
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| Location: | Rolla, Missouri USA |
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Posted: Tue Dec 18th, 2007 13:55 |
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Trevor said, "In any case, Benicar is turning out to be provide good suppression of the immune system, and controls it adequately in all but the most seriously ill." in this thread on Dec. 17, at 19:55.
I thought that Benicar has been said to turn "on", not suppress, the immune system by displacing various substances from the VDR. 
Could you mean suppression of the herxing (IP) affects?
Could you please explain?
Wishing all wellness!!! 
Dark Vader...aka, George
P.S. I lived in Lubbock, TX for six months over Winter and Spring, when there would be a dust storm every week or two, it seemed. The cotton farmers would allow the soil to lay bare over the Winter, so the winds could really kick up the dust. Valley Fever remnant in the soup or stew, also???
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Borreliosis:7/14/04--125D=57,25D=61. Ben 9/1/04. Mino 10/5/04. 4/13/05--125D=58,25D=43. 8/17/05--125D=52,25D=36. April 06=125D=38,25D=29. 8/29/06--125D=37,25D=29. June 07 25D=23. Oct31'07,25D=19.
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Meg Mangin R.N.
Research Team
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Posted: Tue Dec 18th, 2007 14:20 |
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| Benicar has a number of actions on a variety of key immune receptors. Activating the VDR is just one key function and it occurs at relatively low doses. At higher doses Benicar affects other receptors which provide a degree of immunosuppression, and palliation (pain reduction and feeling-good). See How does Benicar work? Why is it superior to other ARBs?
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Reenie
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Posted: Tue Dec 18th, 2007 15:53 |
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George,
It's my understanding that it depends where your immune system is in functioning as to how the Benicar works too. I recall in my earlier days of the MP not being able to tell whether or not I had taken a Benicar because it didn't really matter as to the way I felt one way or another because I didn't get any palliative effects from it that I could feel or tell.
I recall others saying they got symptom relief from their dosing of Benicar which I can feel now.
As for Valley Fever, I was diagnosed with it in 1984 with the rash and fever and all of the other symptoms and have a scarred spot on my lung which has been identified as a calcified granuloma from the incident. At the time I was riding my bicycle outside in a new home construction part of town where lots of the soil had been disturbed stirring up the dust which was infected with the parasite.
Last edited on Tue Dec 18th, 2007 18:36 by Reenie
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Meg Mangin R.N.
Research Team
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Posted: Tue Dec 18th, 2007 16:08 |
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| "As we recover and the innate immune system becomes more active, 1,25-D will recommence its role as VDR agonist. At some point the immunosuppressive action of Benicar (and it's ability to reduce symptoms) becomes dominant over its role in activation of the VDR (which is so critically important at the start of treatment)." ..Trevor..
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Rico
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Posted: Tue Dec 18th, 2007 22:23 |
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Not trying to rock the boat in any way, just trying to understand...
I'm assuming that the palliative effects of Benicar at higher doses doesn't benefit everyone just because I've seen my wife have an easier time with it at lower doses. I know there are others in this boat too, although perhaps not the majority. Do you know why this is? Is it simply due to high bacteria load or something else?
Thanks.
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No diagnosis/some symptoms; wife with Sarc on MP; Olm 40mg q6h| avoid D| 1,25D=63 25D=32 (May 2006) 1,25D=44; 25D=10(Dec 2006)PhaseI(May06) PhaseII(Aug06) PhaseIII(Aug07)
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Meg Mangin R.N.
Research Team
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Posted: Tue Dec 18th, 2007 23:28 |
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| In order to determine why your wife had trouble with the recommended doses of Benicar, we will need more details about her situation. Was she diligently avoiding natural light to eliminate photosensitiity symptoms? Often folks who cannot tolerate immunopatholology when the Benicar blockade activates the VDR are trying to cope with the triple whammy of bacterial killing and hormonal fluctuation and amygdala stimulation due to natural light exposure. I seem to recall that might have been the case with your wife.
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Guss Wilkinson
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Wed Dec 19th, 2007 17:45 |
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| I have yet to see any archaeological evidence that humans lived anywhere near as long as 900-years…on the contrary, average life expectancy in pre-historic times up till a thousand or so years ago seems to be between 30-40 years.
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Dx Sarc May 2002 Stage 2. Estimate Sarc since 1987. Lungs, Joints, Kidneys & GI. Two failed Prednisone courses. (Started MP: Oct 2003 - D25...31ng/ml, 1-25D...76 pg/ml), Phase III since July 2004; BP 100/60. Feeling pretty good!
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Cold Feet
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Wed Dec 19th, 2007 23:59 |
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Interesting discussion. Dr. Marshall, you made some really interesting points; one intrigued me and the other confused me:
- I’ve been looking into the fibrosis issue (granulomas) for some time now, so I am interested about how fibrotic tissue is remodeling itself. Is this phenomenon (perhaps) a continuation of how colonies are evolving...and evading the immune system?
- Does Benicar suppress or stimulate “innate” immunity? Could it be that it does both?
Thanks.
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Lyme & Mycoplasma Pneumonia 2004 -Age 44| 6 Wks Doxy & 25 mG Atenolol STOPPED| 1,25D–42 25D-37| Phase 1 Oct. 06| Avoiding all D & Sun | NOIRs Everywhere | March 2007: 1,25D–30 | 25D-11
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Meg Mangin R.N.
Research Team
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Posted: Thu Dec 20th, 2007 00:25 |
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Please see Fibrosis and How does Benicar work?
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Claudia
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Fri Dec 21st, 2007 14:07 |
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| Thank you Gus, for the comment, which reminds us that this is a scientific forum. I do not think that the Bible - as inspirational as it may be - should be used as a source for our discussions here.
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MP Phase1 23Mar_06; Phase2 July 10_06; Phase3 Nov 4_06. Dx Thyroiditis (Thyroxine); arthritis; glaucoma; CFS (1988-92);Kidney & bladder probs. Feb06 1,25D=43.3; Aug07 1,25D=27.5; Feb06 25D=44; Aug07 25D=28; Nov07 25D=36; Mar08 25D=16.4
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Joyful
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Posted: Fri Dec 21st, 2007 23:40 |
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I just read the article referenced in this post:
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From: Walleyeguy
Date: 2007-12-20 05:33:26
Here is an interesting article linking bacteria in milk to Crohn's.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071210104002.htm
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And since I have used d-mannose for UTI symptoms, it really got my attention when I read:
Professor Jon Rhodes, from the University’s School of Clinical Sciences, explains: “Mycobacterium paratuberculosis has been found within Crohn’s disease tissue but there has been much controversy concerning its role in the disease. We have now shown that these Mycobacteria release a complex molecule containing a sugar, called mannose. This molecule prevents a type of white blood cells, called macrophages, from killing internalised E.Coli.” [University of Liverpool]
Is this researcher saying that the sugar (mannose) is disabling the macrophange's ability to "digest" the e. Coli?
Isnt' that what those photos of "intercellular" bacteria in Dr. Marshall's presentations are showing? "Undigested" (L-form) bacteria surviving in the macrophages?
If this researcher is understanding this process correctly, would the d-mannose powder people take for relief of UTI symptoms actually be another suppression of the innate immune system? ... removing symptoms by stopping the killing? ... leaving the pathogens free to multiply and proliferate?
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Lyme Babs Bart 125D50 Ph1Jul07 ModPh2Sep07 Ph2Feb08 cal/mag lysine hydroxyzine Valium NoIRs cover up low lux home 25D17 Jul08
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NorCalJim
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Sat Dec 22nd, 2007 05:43 |
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Well this certainly does give support to the often cited FAQ on avoiding supplements: http://www.marshallprotocol.com/forum32/1078.html
As to whether ingested mannose can have the same effect I have no idea. To me though, it does beg the question as to whether any of the other related compounds like the sugar alcohols commonly found in sugar-free chocolates etc. may be metabolizing into compounds that could be immunosuppressive...
NorCalJim
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Ankylosing spondylitis Ph1Mar07 Ph2Jun07 Ph3Nov07, no other meds or supps 25D18 (May07) 25D16 (Feb08) NoIRs in/out cover up out
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Joyful
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Posted: Sat Dec 22nd, 2007 05:54 |
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It also causes me to go back to some musings I often have about the timing of when chronic disease became 'epidemic' worldwide.
I have read the documentation of Dr. Price (dentist) who found that as long as a people group did not have access to "modern foods" they were completely healthy. Good bone structure (no crowded teeth). No cavities. Easy going dispositions. Morally sound (low crime). And no degenerative diseases such as heart disease, diabeties, cancer, etc.
As soon as they gained access to processed sugar, flour, etc. they became just like the "rest of us" with all the same diseases.
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Lyme Babs Bart 125D50 Ph1Jul07 ModPh2Sep07 Ph2Feb08 cal/mag lysine hydroxyzine Valium NoIRs cover up low lux home 25D17 Jul08
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Joyful
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Posted: Thu Dec 27th, 2007 23:45 |
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Hi again.
Anyone have any more thoughts on the subject of sugar's role in facilitating the entrenchment of Th1 pathogens?
Here is one small study's observation:
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Digestion 1980;20(5):323-6.
Increased sugar consumption in Crohn's disease.
Mayberry JF, Rhodes J, Newcombe RG.
120 patients with Crohn's disease, 100 with ulcerative colitis and controls matched for age and sex were interviewed by questionnaire. Questions related to current and past sugar and milk intake and consumption of some breakfast cereals. Patients with Crohn's disease ate significantly more sugar than either controls or patients with ulcerative colitis at the time of interview. Their use of sugar had changed little since the onset of symptoms.
PMID: 7390057 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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Last edited on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 00:21 by Dr Trevor Marshall
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Lyme Babs Bart 125D50 Ph1Jul07 ModPh2Sep07 Ph2Feb08 cal/mag lysine hydroxyzine Valium NoIRs cover up low lux home 25D17 Jul08
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Fri Dec 28th, 2007 00:23 |
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Joyful,
I edited out all that rubbish about "phagocytic index" and sugar and vitamin C and stuff that you found on some random Internet site. I just don't even want to bother people's brains with that trash.
No offense to you - I am sure you meant well. But my answer to your question should by now be obvious
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Joyful
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Posted: Fri Dec 28th, 2007 00:33 |
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Thank you for the helpful reply Dr. Marshall.
This is exactly what I was hoping for. Your perspective.
It is so hard to sort out the rubbish from the valuables!
Understanding is what I would love to get to.
The d-mannose relieves the UTI symptoms, but I'm just trying to determine if it is relief due to preventing immune response. If so, I will consider it as something only to use when under great distress, or not at all.
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Lyme Babs Bart 125D50 Ph1Jul07 ModPh2Sep07 Ph2Feb08 cal/mag lysine hydroxyzine Valium NoIRs cover up low lux home 25D17 Jul08
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Claudia
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Fri Dec 28th, 2007 02:10 |
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Not surprizing; sugar is so bad for us, there's hardly anything it won't make worse (except cookies... darn!)
Interestingly, one of the authors (Newcombe) has also studied the possible effectiveness of vitamin D supplementation against bone fractures in the elderly and - also no surprize - found it does not work:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17473911
CONCLUSION: Supplementation with four-monthly 100,000 IU of oral vitamin D(2) is not sufficient to affect fracture incidence among older people living in institutional care.
The frustrating thing, if you read the wording carefully, he seems to have concluded that the amount they used in the study simply wasn't enough...
grrr
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MP Phase1 23Mar_06; Phase2 July 10_06; Phase3 Nov 4_06. Dx Thyroiditis (Thyroxine); arthritis; glaucoma; CFS (1988-92);Kidney & bladder probs. Feb06 1,25D=43.3; Aug07 1,25D=27.5; Feb06 25D=44; Aug07 25D=28; Nov07 25D=36; Mar08 25D=16.4
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Fri Dec 28th, 2007 03:22 |
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Claudia,
Yes, "when in doubt, hit it with a nuclear bomb" seems to be the way that clinical medicine does studies these days.
That is one of the problems we have had getting through to the sarc pulmonologists - their nuclear bombs haven't worked so they are sure that safe ARBs and antibiotics certainly can't work
Joyful, stay away from ALL sugars, including D-mannose.
..Trevor..
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Joyful
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Posted: Fri Dec 28th, 2007 05:54 |
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Joyful, stay away from ALL sugars, including D-mannose.
Got it.
Not real happy about it, but got it.
Denial now broken.
Now moving into bargaining...
"Even raisins?" asks my dear counter-productive self.
(With a twist of 'whine' added in towards the end.)
I know with my rational mind that a low carb diet is recommended.
Just struggling with the reality/difficulty working on this area.
Thanks.
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Lyme Babs Bart 125D50 Ph1Jul07 ModPh2Sep07 Ph2Feb08 cal/mag lysine hydroxyzine Valium NoIRs cover up low lux home 25D17 Jul08
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