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Wojta
Member in Phase 2
| Joined: | Mon Jan 21st, 2008 |
| Location: | Czech Republic |
| Posts: | 63 |
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Posted: Mon Jul 7th, 2008 11:02 |
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Hi,
I just came in my mind to a simple question.
If 25D is low in a sick person due to excessive conversion to 1,25D because of Th1 inflammation, I assume that after that person starts MP, his/her 25D value should start going up as he is getting rid of CWD bacterias.
Since prof.Marshall states that the body is generating its own vitamin D without any dietary sources, I guess that in a person on MP should be observed increasing levels of 25D as Th1 inflammation goes away.
How is it possible to keep 25D low by avoiding diet. supplements/sunlight, if body is said to be generating its own 25D? Isn's also increasing level of 25D while keeping the same diet sign of cure?
Or is it 1,25D which is created naturally by the body?
Thanks.
Wojta.Last edited on Mon Jul 7th, 2008 11:26 by Wojta
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Lyme since summer 2007, 1,25D = 43.9pg/ml, 25D: 10.8ng/ml on 27Feb 2008, 8.7ng/ml on Jul 15 2008, Xyzal 5mg qd, covered up outside, NoIRs, no direct sunlight
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Knochen
Member Advocate
| Joined: | Thu Feb 23rd, 2006 |
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Posted: Mon Jul 7th, 2008 15:30 |
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Try this link
http://www.marshallprotocol.com/forum32/2019.html
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Reiter's Syndrome 25+ yrs, fatigue, joints, muscles, migraine, brainfog| 25D 6 ng/ml |Benicar May06|Ph1 June06|Ph 2 Sept06|Ph 3 Jan 07|NoIRs K-Cream Zinc Oxide cream - Always covered!
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Wojta
Member in Phase 2
| Joined: | Mon Jan 21st, 2008 |
| Location: | Czech Republic |
| Posts: | 63 |
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Posted: Tue Jul 8th, 2008 15:07 |
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Thanks,
at least I can see my considerations were going the right way.
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Lyme since summer 2007, 1,25D = 43.9pg/ml, 25D: 10.8ng/ml on 27Feb 2008, 8.7ng/ml on Jul 15 2008, Xyzal 5mg qd, covered up outside, NoIRs, no direct sunlight
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Tue Jul 8th, 2008 17:09 |
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Endogenous 25-D production will not start to rise until the bacteria have been largely eliminated, which will be in the final few years of MP immunopathology. The production is down-regulated throughout most of the healing trajectory.
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Over-Heated in PHX
Member in Phase 2
| Joined: | Sun Oct 22nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Arizona USA |
| Posts: | 86 |
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Posted: Tue Jul 8th, 2008 20:39 |
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Hi Dr. Marshall,
That's fascinating! May I ask, when our bodies begin to produce the endogenous D-25, will it act as a steroid, help control pain, and give us more muscle strength?
Thanks!
Still,  ver-Heated in PHX
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Lyme Babesia hypothyroid OSA OA FM Morgellon's Uterine Fibroids Depression/Anxiety 125D61 25D16 Ph2Jan08| Daily: Levothroid; Loratadine| NoIRs 2% outdoor - computer lowest setting - low lux home, homebound, limited outings covered up &Keto
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Rico
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Tue Jul 8th, 2008 22:39 |
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Trevor, what should the 25-D level rise to once the bacteria have been eliminated? What about the 1,25-D level?
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No diagnosis/some symptoms; wife with Sarc on MP; Olm 40mg q6h| avoid D| 1,25D=63 25D=32 (May 2006) 1,25D=44; 25D=10(Dec 2006)PhaseI(May06) PhaseII(Aug06) PhaseIII(Aug07)
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Tue Jul 8th, 2008 23:24 |
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The body produces endogenous 25-D as is necessary for function, most notably activation of the VDR and transcription of the genes for which is is responsible.
25-D will eventually settle around 20 ng/ml.
OHP, your muscles will recover long before your body will stop down-regulating 25-D production.
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Over-Heated in PHX
Member in Phase 2
| Joined: | Sun Oct 22nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Arizona USA |
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Posted: Tue Jul 8th, 2008 23:50 |
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Thanks for the encouragement, Dr. Marshall !! It's good to know that my muscles/energy will return.
& I just love knowing that there is a D-test result that will be undeniable proof for all the world to see!
Still, H in PHX
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Lyme Babesia hypothyroid OSA OA FM Morgellon's Uterine Fibroids Depression/Anxiety 125D61 25D16 Ph2Jan08| Daily: Levothroid; Loratadine| NoIRs 2% outdoor - computer lowest setting - low lux home, homebound, limited outings covered up &Keto
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P.Bear R.N.
Research Team
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Posted: Wed Jul 9th, 2008 07:19 |
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http://www.ams.ac.ir/aim/08114/007.htm
This population study might reflect normal 25-D levels in healthy people that don't supplement. Iranian men ingest no pork and get very little dietary D and tend to get adequate sun exposure and the mean 25-D level was 35nmols/L or about 14ng/ml. Although the 520 men tested were reported as healthy they did not test for 1,25-D so some of the men may have had elevations and TH1 inflammation that would tend to down regulate the 25-D levels and skew mean a bit lower that a true healthy norm.
I found it interesting that a Belgium lab range for normal 25-D was 12-30ng/ml, while in the US it seems the ranges are never based upon population studies but upon the recommendations of "experts" such as:
Vieth R. Why the optimal requirement for vitamin D3 is probably much higher than what is officially recommended for adults. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2004;89-90:575-579.
Holick MF, Siris ES, Binkley N, et al. Prevalence of vitamin D inadequacy among postmenopausal North American women receiving osteoporosis therapy. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2005;90:3215-3224.
Quest diagnostics states: Though there is lack of consensus regarding an optimal serum level, most experts consider a
25(OH)D level of ³30 ng/mL adequate. ( Above papers cited)
It is no wonder the madness of telling people to consume more "vitamin" D continues in clinical medicine; all the while ignoring what a real normal healthy level is.
best, P.B.
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Nothing contained in this site is or should be considered, or used as a substitute for, medical advice, diagnosis or treatment by your physician.
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John McDonald
Member Advocate
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Posted: Fri Jul 11th, 2008 21:14 |
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The body produces endogenous 25-D ... for ... activation of the VDR
Am I neuro herxing? I thought 25D was a VDR antagonist?
Last edited on Fri Jul 11th, 2008 21:27 by John McDonald
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RA 125D38, MP 9/05 Ph2 12/05 Ph3 09/06, Oct07 2510, NoIRs lite exp r/t work covered up
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P.Bear R.N.
Research Team
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Posted: Fri Jul 11th, 2008 21:36 |
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John, No neuro herx. You are of course absolutely right. Dr Marshall I presumed meant that the body in health produced all the 25-D it needed to convert to 1,25-D to activate the VDR.
best, P.B.
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Nothing contained in this site is or should be considered, or used as a substitute for, medical advice, diagnosis or treatment by your physician.
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Fri Jul 11th, 2008 22:11 |
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Exogenous Vitamin D is immunosuppressive. From outside the body. The body regulates and generates exactly the amount it needs as a precursor for 1,25-D production.
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Phil Schoner
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 14:46 |
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On this point of 25D levels and 1,25D levels, I find I often loose sight of the fact that 25D levels are expressed in units that are 1,000 times higher than 1,25D levels. (Micro grams vs pico grams, I believe) Therefore, if you have 25D of "40" and 1,25D of "60" your true ratio of these metabolites is 40,000/60.
Since it takes one 25D to produce one 1,25D in your body, it makes one wonder how the 25D level can be depleted significantly by the conversion to 1,25D, given that there are so many more of them.
I'm sure there is a good explanation.
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Phil Schoner, MP Support Spouse
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John McDonald
Member Advocate
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 17:23 |
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| Phil - I wondered aloud about that a couple years ago and someone, one of the moderators I think, reminded me that the half-life of 1,25 is around 6 hours. So to elevate 1,25 D and keep it elevated the body must burn through quite a lot of 25D in a year. I've heard too many figures for the half life of 25D to know what to believe, but it is somewhere around 2 or 3 months. If we accept 2 months then the difference in burn rate is something like 240 times faster for 1,25D. But if the way that 25D is reduced is by conversion to 1,25D then the half life of 25D certainly must be affected by the accelerated production of 1,25D so it may be much, much faster than that in truly sick people.
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RA 125D38, MP 9/05 Ph2 12/05 Ph3 09/06, Oct07 2510, NoIRs lite exp r/t work covered up
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 20:56 |
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I have been deprecating the concept of vigorous conversion for several years.
If you look at Figure 1 from my Bioessay you will see exactly what happens. When the VDR is blocked by the pathogens, the enzymes to break down 1,25-D are not transcribed (particularly CYP24), so 1,25-D can rise to abnoemal levels. Additionally the transcription of CYP27A1 is blocked by Vitamin D, 25-D and 1,25-D causing the hydroxylation of Vitamin-D to 25-D to be down-regulated.
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John McDonald
Member Advocate
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 21:43 |
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I guess I was looking out the window and I see your point. I started to respond to Phil with a much longer note but I realized that it wasn't after-all like radioactive decay or unchecked bacterial growth as the term half-life suggests. It depends heavily on the exact method of regulation. So clearly the half-lives of 25D and 1,25D and all other active biochemicals isn't strictly a half-life in the sense of pure exponential math. They are measures of biologic regulation. I reckon researchers must have derived the 6 hour half life by introducing exogenous 1,25D and measuring it's decay without, as usual, ever questioning why and how it decays. Then too, our measured serum levels of 25D must also be the result of some bio-regulation whether healthy or 'dis-regulated', but regulated nevertheless. I'm sorry Phil. I was speaking out of school.
Edited for spelling.
Last edited on Thu Jul 17th, 2008 22:08 by John McDonald
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RA 125D38, MP 9/05 Ph2 12/05 Ph3 09/06, Oct07 2510, NoIRs lite exp r/t work covered up
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 22:32 |
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John, part of my PhD thesis research was estimating the number of "compartments" or number of exponential components, in Insulin and Glucose regulation. If I remember, my software blew up at above about 6 compartments. Disease is characterized by complex inter-relationships 
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John McDonald
Member Advocate
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 22:44 |
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| I had a hearty laugh from that, thank you. As the joke goes, I had a ranch so large it took all day to drive across it and the response is that I had an old car like that too, but in this case I used to have software and computers like that. Imagine how that old box you were running that on would have groaned if you tried running your current molecular modeling on it. Unless you got your PhD last year you would have better luck running that old insulin model on your Iphone. But I understand your point. It is implicit on your D metabolites foil. Lots of complexities in bio-regulation. Last edited on Thu Jul 17th, 2008 22:45 by John McDonald
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RA 125D38, MP 9/05 Ph2 12/05 Ph3 09/06, Oct07 2510, NoIRs lite exp r/t work covered up
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Rico
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 01:12 |
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| Exogenous Vitamin D is immunosuppressive. From outside the body. The body regulates and generates exactly the amount it needs as a precursor for 1,25-D production. |
So, what does that say about "healthy" people (especially those who've recovered from the MP) eating foods naturally containing Vitamin D (e.g., fish, eggs)? Did you mean exogenous to mean supplementary? What about inuit peoples who have lived off fish for so long?
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No diagnosis/some symptoms; wife with Sarc on MP; Olm 40mg q6h| avoid D| 1,25D=63 25D=32 (May 2006) 1,25D=44; 25D=10(Dec 2006)PhaseI(May06) PhaseII(Aug06) PhaseIII(Aug07)
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 01:58 |
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Rico,
I say:
"Eating a diet containing Vit D usually does not do enough harm to be a problem. Eating a diet rich in Vit D is likely to worsen health. As an example, even though there may be many other factors involved, I note that the Scandinavian countries, heavily dependent on seafood in their diets, have traditionally suffered a higher rate of sarcoidosis."
I also note that Jonathan Hutchinson, who in the 19th century was the first to document sarcoidosis, traveled to rural India, where higher incidence of sarcoidosis had been documented.
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