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Rico
Member in Phase 3
| Joined: | Wed May 31st, 2006 |
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| Posts: | 248 |
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Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 02:07 |
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Rural India? Do they have a diet rich in Vitamin D?
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No diagnosis/some symptoms; wife with Sarc on MP; Olm 40mg q6h| avoid D| 1,25D=63 25D=32 (May 2006) 1,25D=44; 25D=10(Dec 2006)PhaseI(May06) PhaseII(Aug06) PhaseIII(Aug07)
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 02:25 |
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So important is fishing to the economy, that there are still international disputes over territory:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3089/is_n2_v52/ai_10826785
http://www.developments.org.uk/articles/india-after-the-tsunami/
http://www.hinduonnet.com/2004/12/01/stories/2004120105431200.htm
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lhebel
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| Joined: | Mon Sep 3rd, 2007 |
| Location: | Oxford, Georgia USA |
| Posts: | 7 |
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Posted: Mon Sep 1st, 2008 19:56 |
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Hello Dr Marshall,
Two months in and you have improved my life already. Why did I have to think it to death?
Just curious, has anyone far along on the MP re-tested their 1,25d while not on Benicar? I wonder what their newly non-dysregulated vitamin d levels look like.
Warm regards,
Lee
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CFS, 5/08 d25 28, d 1,25 42, began self directed MP 6/26/08, avoiding d and light.
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 00:06 |
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Lee,
It is not a good idea to stop the Benicar while the body still has bacteria being killed, as Benicar is needed to protect the kidneys, heart, and other organs. It would not be ethical for us to gather data as you suggest
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lhebel
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| Joined: | Mon Sep 3rd, 2007 |
| Location: | Oxford, Georgia USA |
| Posts: | 7 |
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Posted: Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 17:40 |
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Hi Dr Marshall,
Thanks for the reply.
I guess where I was going with this was more specific to the early adopters like yourself and Meg. I have read the site for about a year and I felt from the tone of your posts that you were for all intents and purposes healed and no longer taking Benicar. I don't know about anyone else though.
I suppose I am looking for things that might be measurable that would indicate improvement from baseline. I would guess that yours and probably most late stage participants would show, most importantly, re-regulated vitamin d and an improvement in a host of other blood numbers as well including thyroid function, blood pressure, cholesterol, triglycerides etc.
Sincerely,
Lee
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CFS, 5/08 d25 28, d 1,25 42, began self directed MP 6/26/08, avoiding d and light.
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 18:29 |
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Lee,
Meg and I are traveling all over the world, meeting with the top thinkers, and having a ball.
Where exactly did you want to go with your life?
(sorry to be sarcastic, but you really need to focus on whether you want a new life, or you want a nice printout on a piece of paper)
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eClaire
Member in Phase 2
| Joined: | Mon Sep 25th, 2006 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 566 |
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Posted: Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 22:23 |
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Dr. Marshall, I want a new life and don't at all care about the print out (however, if we are getting well, then there are some tests where we might expect improvement--e.g., lung x-rays, bone scans...I don't think it is too much to ask what you expect along those lines or also what the experience has been of some of the early adopters if there is enough information about that...although that might be a question for the lifestyles section where folk who are near well can report their experiences).
However, I do want to have some idea about whether or not I will be living with or without Benicar 24/7. (Lee's questions raises this issue for me.)
I'm seeing myself doing an abx cleanup about once or twice a year. And I'm thinking that once well, my organs should be doing fine, and if I wanted, I should be able to take Benicar once a day and not feel any affect like a "healthy" person. I'm actually thinking that Benicar once a day might help keep the doctor away.
Is my thinking cap on right as to this being a reasonable possibility or not? (Even living without Benicar at that point?)
Claire
Last edited on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 22:29 by eClaire
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CFS FMS MCS COPD hypermobility IBS/GERD osteoporosis 125D48 25D8 Ph1Dec06 ModPh2Jun07 NoIRs limited outings covered up low lux home abx brk 3/2-5/25/08; Temazepam 9/26/08; Ph2Oct29
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lhebel
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| Location: | Oxford, Georgia USA |
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 02:40 |
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Hello Dr Marshall,
Thanks for the reply.
Where do I want to go? I want to travel the world with you and Meg!
But seriously, why the derisive answer to a politely asked simple question? I was under the impression this was a thread about vitamin d in healed persons, no? It seemed reasonable to me to wonder what improvement a 1,25d test might reveal after some time on your protocol. After all, the d metabolites test is the only test you feel is necessary to reveal th1 inflammatory disease so wouldn't it be useful to retest at some point? The MDs I have seen rely on measurable data to gauge improvement and aren't these the same MDs you are working so hard to get on board with your discovery?
It is obvious you are not in this for the money and from the bottom of my heart I appreciate that you have shared your discovery with the world. But, if you don't have the data or don't want to share the data for some reason then just say so.
I am a successful businessman living a happy, full but a little unwell life working toward improvement. Is it unusual to make a part time hobby out of the study of ones ailments? Didn't you "dig in" to your own because you are ultimately the only one responsible for your health?
Sincerely,
Lee
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CFS, 5/08 d25 28, d 1,25 42, began self directed MP 6/26/08, avoiding d and light.
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 03:08 |
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Lee,
But you didn't just ask about 25-D, you asked about other (and somewhat irrelevant) markers
My 25-D did rise to 8ng/ml about 9 mos ago but then fell back below 7 ng/ml. Too early to draw conclusions.
The only definite conclusion I have drawn at this point is that the human body can operate properly for two decades (in my case, I stopped Vit D and light back in 1986) without exogenous Vit D. This is in line with what the Biology predicts. So I don't sweat it anymore. Time to enjoy life....
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 03:13 |
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Claire,
Please take another look at the video of the presentation I made at UCLA about aging. You seem to be fixated on "health" yet what I was explaining there was that all humans, even ones that think they are "healthy," carry the metagenomic microbiota which definitely causes the diseases of aging, and most probably causes many processes of aging.
http://vimeo.com/1268542
Frankly, if I am leading an active, fun-filled life in a couple of decades time, as I expect to be, the thing furthest from my mind will be whether I am on 24/7 Benicar or whatever...
Take a listen to Susan Andorn on the LAX 2006 Recovery DVD. She is starting out on her new life in her 70's, and having a ball...
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Rico
Member in Phase 3
| Joined: | Wed May 31st, 2006 |
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 12:27 |
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My 25-D did rise to 8ng/ml about 9 mos ago but then fell back below 7 ng/ml. Too early to draw conclusions.
The only definite conclusion I have drawn at this point is that the human body can operate properly for two decades (in my case, I stopped Vit D and light back in 1986) without exogenous Vit D. |
Trevor, do you continue to avoid all foods naturally containing Vitamin D (e.g., egg yolks, mushrooms, fish), eat these in moderation or whenever you want?
Last edited on Thu Sep 4th, 2008 12:27 by Rico
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No diagnosis/some symptoms; wife with Sarc on MP; Olm 40mg q6h| avoid D| 1,25D=63 25D=32 (May 2006) 1,25D=44; 25D=10(Dec 2006)PhaseI(May06) PhaseII(Aug06) PhaseIII(Aug07)
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 15:18 |
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I eat anything in moderation. Except chocolates and mousse. No moderation there
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ginariggio
Member in Phase 1
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 18:03 |
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I notice that a lot of us tend to worry excessively about the dietary rules. I think many of us are used to doing that sort of thing because of past (ineffective) "autoimmune disease" treatments we may have tried that were focused heavily on diet and supplements. I DO think that it would be nice to have markers that tell us "when we are healed", but in all honesty, it appears as though a truly healthy mind and body would naturally gravitate towards just enjoying life instead of over-thinking the details of it. Also, I think what it means to be healed or healthy is a fuzzy concept anyway and "getting healthy" continues on a gradient throughout the MP patient's life so "knowing" when you are healed may be a very personal thing.
With all the different things we have tried to get ahead of our disease in the past, the MP is the first thing that actually targets the real problem and has a well-explained mechanism that you can count on. The diet is such a tiny part of that picture. It has been my understanding (and correct me if I'm wrong here) that once you get things going, the bacteria will still die, regardless of what you eat, because of the medications/re-activation of the immune system. As long as you aren't downing daily piles of 25-D supplements, fish, fish oil, the "UV zapped" mushrooms, etc, I would assume that the occasional egg yolk (which I think contains about 18IU of D) will not do much to hinder the healing process. I have always kept in mind that the dietary rules are pretty flexible.
Healthy people SHOULD be able to eat anything in moderation.
I've also heard patients discussing the possibility that 25-D supplements (as in, something you'd take as a pill and not a food) are much more immunosuppressive than what you get from food. This was great news to me because supplements are expensive, take up too much space in the bathroom, and i hate buying them. =)
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dx: Ulcerative Colitis 5/2003, 3/15/08: 25D-9 & 125D-66, pre-ph1, prednisone(60mg) since 6/13/08 -- on a break from treatment post-hospitalization.
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Joyful
Board Staff
| Joined: | Sat Jun 9th, 2007 |
| Location: | West Coast, USA |
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 18:28 |
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Gina wrote:
I've also heard patients discussing the possibility that 25-D supplements (as in, something you'd take as a pill and not a food) are much more immunosuppressive than what you get from food.
Yes, some have discussed this, but it's important to point out that up to now, there isn't any explanation for why that might be and IF it is even true. So, for now, it's important to go on the understanding that avoiding D in foods is a key part of following the protocol. 
I know that most reading here know this, but for the ones who don't here goes:
An occassional food item with a low amount of D (large meatloaf with 1 whole egg in it, or unfortified cheese) does not seem to cause D levels to skyrocket, but while on the Marshall Protocol it is a key to success to completely avoid the foods with high D levels (like most seafood) all the time.
Last edited on Thu Sep 4th, 2008 18:33 by Joyful
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Lyme Babs? Bart? | 125D50 Ph1Jul07 ModPh2Sep07 Ph2Feb08 Ph3Aug08 | cal/mag lysine hydroxyzine valium | rarely leave house NoIRs cover up low lux home | 25D15 Oct08
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 20:33 |
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Gina said:Healthy people SHOULD be able to eat anything in moderation
No, from an evolutionary point of view, this is a non-sequitur. It is in fact likely that the diet (and environment) of Homo sapiens contributed to the evolution of the Th1 microbiota. We know that is especially so during the last half-century.
There are a lot of unanswered questions about why cardiovascular disease, for example, was virtually unknown in Japan before its 'westernization' after the second world war.
It is best not to make generalizations based on pragma as we used to understand things. As we start to explore the processes which limit the lifespan of mankind to 100 years (or so) we will be better able to figure out he contributions of food and environment. IMO, at this point in time, Vit D containing foods are highly suspect in the evolutionary chain of events.
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Rico
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 22:57 |
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But Japanese are known to eat a lot of fish...which contains D...
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No diagnosis/some symptoms; wife with Sarc on MP; Olm 40mg q6h| avoid D| 1,25D=63 25D=32 (May 2006) 1,25D=44; 25D=10(Dec 2006)PhaseI(May06) PhaseII(Aug06) PhaseIII(Aug07)
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 23:30 |
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Exactly my point - we just don't know any of the answers yet, IMO. Give it another decade and much more will be figured out...
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Rico
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Fri Sep 5th, 2008 00:05 |
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Sorry, Trevor, I must have lost you.
You said that cardiovascular disease, for example, was virtually unknown in Japan before its 'westernization' after the second world war. I'm guessing you were implying that perhaps introduction of some western bad habits (e.g., Vitamin D supplementation) may have contributed to cardiovascular problems being introduced there after the war.
You also said "Vit D containing foods are highly suspect in the evolutionary chain of events", implying that Vit D containing foods like fish may have contributed to Th1 microbiota - well, weren't the Japanese eating plenty of fish prior to the war and living without much cardiovascular disease? If so, then Vitamin D containing foods (naturally, not fortified) can't be all that bad.
Did I miss your point?
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No diagnosis/some symptoms; wife with Sarc on MP; Olm 40mg q6h| avoid D| 1,25D=63 25D=32 (May 2006) 1,25D=44; 25D=10(Dec 2006)PhaseI(May06) PhaseII(Aug06) PhaseIII(Aug07)
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Fri Sep 5th, 2008 00:25 |
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Rico,
When a problem is imponderable, it is imponderable. Brilliant scientists like Paul Ewald spend their whole life puzzling over anomalies like this.
http://bacteriality.com/2008/02/11/ewald/
Where you have 'lost me' is that you are trying to fit data into our current view of the world. When it doesn't fit, it doesn't fit. Whether there are two points which don't fit, or one point, doesn't really matter. Just one misfit means you have to go back to the drawing boards and re-think your whole hypothesis.
I am comfortable with that. It is how I was trained to practice science. When the data don't fit your model you must assume that the whole model is wrong, and start the examination from that point.
So in this particular case it is pretty clear that there are forces at work beyond those I have described in my model of chronic disease. Each possibility must be explored separately. That's why I said that it will take another decade for us to get a good idea of exactly what the parameters might be, at a population level, and what the dynamics might be
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Cass A
Member
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Posted: Fri Sep 5th, 2008 09:29 |
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Here here!!
This is where the rubber meets the road in science--can you have the humility to look for an entirely new model when the contrary facts you're facing are so clear?
Most people try to fudge their way around this type of situation and make "reasonable" explanations why it is that way instead of confronting the reality that there is something else, fundamentally, going on.
I'm so grateful that the MP gives us a workable solution while the search is made for the underlying situations regarding L-form bacteria and their evolution. The MP is a truly great discovery, and recognizing that it opens doors to further knowledge rather than being the end-point of understanding of chronic disease is enlivening.
Best,
Cass A
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Res/Pre MP; dx Lyme, tinnitus, hearing loss, low body temp.; I take many vits, minerals, herbs, enzymes; D tests May 07: 1,25D=33 & 25D=16; avoiding light & D; NoIRs in use
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