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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Tue Jul 8th, 2008 03:30 |
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(This topic is dedicated to a certain member of Australia's scientific intelligentsia who recently was reported to make the following ill-informed statement to an Australian member: "I am sorry to say that there is no evidence even for cell wall-less bugs elsewhere in the body in chronic fatigue patients. They would have DNA and that is not there in CFS by PCR assays. You will have made your gut flora tetracycline resistant by selection. The bugs can then be spread elsewhere and even E coli is a hazard to you and other people if you do get an infection needing tetracyclines. Especially likely are urinary infections. We just had a young Indian newly wed in the hospital with this and there is a 20% mortality with even simple infections now.")
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You know, Medicine, and even much of the Biological Sciences, are still living in the proverbial stone-age, while researchers (like myself) use in-silico analysis and sheer deductive reasoning to leap mountains in mankind's knowledge of exactly how bacteria live, how they survive antibiotics, how they survive boiling water, and the vacuum of space, to come back to a vegetative form when placed in an hospitable environment.
At the "Understanding Aging" conference, Adam Arkin, of the Lawrence Berkeley Labs (the folk who brought you the human genome) explained the work he is now doing on deciphering Bacterial genomes, especially focusing on how each gene and protein works.
 I took a video of his presentation, and it is available for streaming from our website at URL
http://curemyth1.org/flash/adam_arkin.html
You will need to upgrade to the latest Adobe Flash Player (you need at least 9.0.115, which was released in December 2007). You will also need a fairly fast computer, as the detail in his slides requires a lot more than YouTube can convey...
The presentation can alternatively be downloaded (100 megabytes) from http://curemyth1.org/flash/UABBA-session1.mp4 and played locally, if you prefer. It is in H.264 format, if you don't know what that is then it is best not to bother with the download, and stick with the Flash presentation
Here is a key slide, one depicting many of the proteins which determine whether a bacterium transitions to the L-form (he calls them 'spores') or not:
Click on the slide for a full-size version, taken from the full-resolution video.
Now, let the discussion begin...
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Russ
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Wed Jul 9th, 2008 14:28 |
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| Whenever I hear about how bacteria can survive in all kinds of the harshest conditions it makes them seem invincible. If they can survive antibiotics and all these other things, you'd think they could survive the immune system's anti-microbial peptides too. Is there something more to the MP - other than activating the anti-microbial peptides via the VDR - that allows us to get rid of them once and for all? Are we "tricking" them by pulsing the antibiotics and maybe getting them to "let their guard down"? Or are the anti-microbial peptides just so highly evolved that though bacteria can survive the antibiotics we manufacture in pill form, they can't survive the ones our immune system has evolved to produce?
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Lyme, MCS | Phase 1: Jul '06 | Phase 2: Nov '06 | Phase 3: Jul '07 | 25D: 5 ng/ml (Oct '09)
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Wed Jul 9th, 2008 19:13 |
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The immune system destroys pathogens by a process of phagocytosis, where the macrophages engulf the pathogen and then digest it by breaking its DNA up into fragments. At that point it is no longer a viable organism.
The Th1 microbiota has developed a mechanism to avoid phagocytosis, and live inside the same cytoplasm that would normally digest the individual organisms.
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tickbite
Member in Phase 2/3
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Posted: Wed Jul 9th, 2008 22:39 |
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"pole to pole oscillations 5-20 mins" reminds me of my control systems class. I really didn't like that much math. I guess that picture above is just a generalized scenario. I suppose eventually you could isolate key proteins "inputs" and know how they will form L-forms for a given microbiota. I bet right now, just proving their existence is more important. Open the flood gates!
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"Lyme","CFS", Meningitis
Phase3 8-2-07, MP on hold 11/2007
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Thu Jul 10th, 2008 02:23 |
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I think Alan was concentrating on the Control theory as that was the theme of the conference, and he was the first speaker His colleagues have been isolating the individual proteins, as I chatted with them about this last year during the Metagenomics conference. You might like to review these for more detail:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18324309
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18573177
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tickbite
Member in Phase 2/3
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Posted: Thu Jul 10th, 2008 18:28 |
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I opened up a can of worms for myself. It really is biomolecular control systems They used Matlab to do the 10 distinct cell history plots. Good program.
"It has also been suggested that pathogenic bacteria use cross-talk encoded memory to balance the demands of immune avoidance with a sequential, compartment to compartment infection lifecycle"
Interesting.....
"If cells could use a memory of past conditions to ‘predict’ future conditions, and delay sporulation, an expensive process, if the environment is likely to improve or accelerate sporulation if the starvation period is likely to be long, they might improve their odds for long-term survival."
Most impressive.....
Indeed, 'memory' would add to the evolutionary game repertoire. They are smarter than I thought. Thanks for the lesson.
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"Lyme","CFS", Meningitis
Phase3 8-2-07, MP on hold 11/2007
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Thu Jul 10th, 2008 18:55 |
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Greg,
Well, at least the ones that have survived for millions (+) of years are very smart indeed.
It is always possible that other species are no longer around because their repertoire was less effective
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Ruth Goold
Health Professional
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Posted: Fri Jul 11th, 2008 19:59 |
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Trevor,
Death from virulent strains of flu (Spanish flu, bird flu) is believed to result from the 'cytokine storm' they produce in humans. As we restore immune function are we becoming more susceptible to these pathogens? I remember a report indicating that it was young 'healthy' adults who suffered the highest mortality in the Spanish flu pandemic,
Ruth
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03/02/07 Ph 1 MP; 2001: Pulmonary sarc; 01/04/07: 125 D=110pmol/L(45.8 pg/ml)| 25D=20.8 ng/ml: 04/07 19.2: 07/07 11?: 09/07 16.5: 11/07 <10.0: 01/08 <10.0: 05/08 10 ng/ml. Ca. Elocom (ears). diphenhydramine 25 mg. Adidas EE glasses outside. NoIRs
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Fri Jul 11th, 2008 20:45 |
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Ruth,
We are now starting to understand a lot more about the way that viruses work. Most co-opt human genes to perform necessary functions, such as replication, etc. For example, Bird Flu was recently found to require 6 host genes, of which only two were available in human beings:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18615016
One of these discoveries is particularly interesting, the HIV virus, which co-opts the VDR and leaves the host without an innate immune system:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17556530
Most of what you will read in the clinical literature about epidemics is incorrect. Indeed, discoveries like those above have shaken the specialty of Infectious Diseases to its core.
Indeed, Andrew Noymer has made a persuasive case that deaths from the Spanish Flu were primarily a result of co-morbidity with Tuberculosis:
http://www.demog.berkeley.edu/~andrew/1918/PDR_1918_flu.pdf
So I wouldn't be too concerned about "cytokine storms" being given as cause of death from these epidemics. And I am totally unconcerned that restoring a human being to health might make them more susceptible to viral or bacterial infection.
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eClaire
Member in Phase 2
| Joined: | Mon Sep 25th, 2006 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 773 |
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Posted: Sat Jul 12th, 2008 11:32 |
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Given the intellectual level of this discussion, I am nearly afraid to ask, "So, there's no point in my boiling my tap water?" My brother had HIV and his doctors had told him to drink boiled tap water, not bottled or straight from the tap. I figured it wouldn't be such a bad idea for me to do the same given the state of my health.
Claire
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34mo on MP; CFS FMS MCS COPD hypermob. IBS/GERD osteopor.; 125D48 25D<4;
NoIRs during most daylight outings & covered up; home w/o NoIRs
Ph1.Dec06 * ModPh2.Jun07 * AbxBrk.Mar-May08 * Ph2.Oct-Nov08 * Ph1.Jan2009
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tickbite
Member in Phase 2/3
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Posted: Sat Jul 12th, 2008 20:00 |
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Unless you live in an area where you cannot get clean, fresh drinking water, there's no point. Personally, I go and get filtered water from the Culligan filling station in Walmart. Otherwise, I think the reference to HIV up top suggests that the MP may be one day the cornerstone to recovery from AIDS/HIV. Gotta have a functioning VDR. In other words, you have to have a functioning innate immune system just as those who are doing the MP. Microbes are everywhere, it's part of the natural world.
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"Lyme","CFS", Meningitis
Phase3 8-2-07, MP on hold 11/2007
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Freddie Ash
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Sat Jul 12th, 2008 21:07 |
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HI ALL
This is Fred in WV. I think, if I understand the MP correct, that when our immune system is working, we should not be catching any or very little bugs that our own immune system will not kill before the bugs can get a hold on us and make us sick.
Remember, we are all in this together and I am pulling for us.
Your friend in Sarcoidosis
Freddie
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Freddie: dx-sarc 2/82 lymph; skin, eyes, joints, esophagus, intestines, spleen, heart,lungs-meds digitek, L-thyroxine, nexium, furosemide, nattokinase36mg,eat cinnamon w/meals,25D-7; 125-D43
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eClaire
Member in Phase 2
| Joined: | Mon Sep 25th, 2006 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 773 |
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Posted: Sun Jul 13th, 2008 00:16 |
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Well, I can filter the water through my refrigerator system or through the tap, and so I guess I will move to that system of extra filtration (used to have one on the tap in the old house and when I bought a new system it wouldn't fit with my new faucet and I was never well enough to get the problem straightened out...think I could manage it now).
Well, of course, given what we know about the MP, it makes sense that people who have had an STD and strong antibiotics and have taken steroids are more likely to "catch" HIV and develop AIDS, then those who haven't. My brother never took "steroids," but he did get an STD that was antibiotic resistant (supposedly) and took abx for it, and he was seriously addicted to whole milk from a young age (hmmm...let me see if there is a seco-steroid connection there). I wish he had just held on a few more years; he could have started the MP with me. As it was, I was following in his footsteps with Th1 illness of my own (diagnosed as CFS) and believe that before starting the MP I probably had about 6 months to 2 years to live. Given all of my heart IPR since starting the MP (my brother died of congestive heart failure and an infection that overtook his lungs), I believe the MP saved my life in the last year.
Claire
Last edited on Sun Jul 13th, 2008 00:19 by eClaire
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34mo on MP; CFS FMS MCS COPD hypermob. IBS/GERD osteopor.; 125D48 25D<4;
NoIRs during most daylight outings & covered up; home w/o NoIRs
Ph1.Dec06 * ModPh2.Jun07 * AbxBrk.Mar-May08 * Ph2.Oct-Nov08 * Ph1.Jan2009
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Sun Jul 13th, 2008 00:50 |
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eClaire wrote: Well, of course, given what we know about the MP, it makes sense that people who have had an STD and strong antibiotics and have taken steroids are more likely to "catch" HIV and develop AIDS, then those who haven't.
Claire
No Claire, that is totally wrong.
Our data shows that after the MP, and while folk are in Phases 2/3 of the MP, they are far less likely to succumb to any bacterial or viral disease (or indeed, cancer) than the general population.
It is not possible to draw any generalizations for folk who are not on the MP, although if they are stil on steroids that does place them at higher risk of recurrent or new infection. In this category I include those who are taking Vitamin D supplements.
As for using filters - forget it - there are no filters small enough to catch the L-forms which are making you ill
Last edited on Sun Jul 13th, 2008 00:52 by Dr Trevor Marshall
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eClaire
Member in Phase 2
| Joined: | Mon Sep 25th, 2006 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 773 |
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Posted: Sun Jul 13th, 2008 01:40 |
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| Thanks for correctly that as totally wrong, as I was just repeating what I read about HIV/AIDS risk factors. Thanks also for clarifying the need to a filter. If I put one in, it will be about the taste of the water. Claire
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34mo on MP; CFS FMS MCS COPD hypermob. IBS/GERD osteopor.; 125D48 25D<4;
NoIRs during most daylight outings & covered up; home w/o NoIRs
Ph1.Dec06 * ModPh2.Jun07 * AbxBrk.Mar-May08 * Ph2.Oct-Nov08 * Ph1.Jan2009
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garyv
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Mon Jul 14th, 2008 21:15 |
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If you MP pros will indulge a newbie, I would like to offer the opinion that, even with a disabled VDR, the human immune function can still deal fairly effectively with the standard (non-CWD) bacteria/viruses responsible for seasonal flus and colds.
I say this because 20 years ago, at the age of 35, I began to suffer bouts of severe fatigue/low energy paired with abdominal cramping, bloating and general discomfort. I also continued to experience, as I had for my entire life, sinus infections at least twice/year with congestion/drainage lasting about 2 weeks/episode, often moving to throat and bronchial passages before ending.
As I began shifting my diet, first to unprocessed foods and then to Paleolithic-style (no grains/dairy) eating, my abdominal symptoms and seasonal infections gradually abated. I can now say I have had no colds or flus or digestive problems whatsoever for the past 6 years while my energy level made a corresponding increase to that which I enjoyed in my 20’s.
HOWEVER, what I have recently recognized, after encountering Dr. Marshall’s work, as my Th1 issues, which include osteoporosis, Raynaud’s, paresthesia, leg/foot cramps and tinnitus, continued on through the dietary changes undiminished. In the past year I also experienced a re-emergence of osteoarthritis (hips), which I previously experienced 10 years ago but put to rest at that time by quitting white potatoes (the final change I made in moving to a 100% Paleo diet).
Since my mother and grandmother and only sibling (sister) also have a plethora of Th1 symptoms, I believe I’ve been CWD-infected for my entire life. But, it seems to have been my metabolically inappropriate eating that pushed me over into susceptibility to 100+ infections of the standard sort over the years. And, of course, the antibiotics I was given for those no doubt exacerbated my original CWD infection and enabled it to manifest sooner than it might have otherwise.
My arthritis experience seems to indicate that certain Th1 symptoms can be mitigated, or at least postponed for a time, by a metabolically appropriate diet, but eventually, as the CWD bacteria proliferate and the VDR becomes evermore disabled, Th1 disease comes to the fore in various ways, as determined by lifestyle and genetic inheritance.
Does this “thesis” make sense? Has anyone else out there in MP-land experimented with a Paleo diet?
Curiously,
garyv (5 months into Phase 1)
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DxOsteoporosis/osteoarthritis/Raynauds/paresthesia/tinnitus 1,25D69 Ph1Mar08 Ph3Jan09 25D44(Apr09) no meds or light avoidance, covered in direct sunlight only
"Fear not the path of truth for the lack of people walking on it.” –Arabic proverb
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Mon Jul 14th, 2008 23:23 |
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GaryV,
You are incorrect. Your GI tract problems are due to the Th1 pathogens, indeed, they probably started to populate your body tissues from the gut.
The Th1 pathogens cause a cytokine release which unbalances the other parts of the immune system. For example, giving rise to the antibodies which have been called "autoimmune."
Your diet may have helped with the GI symptoms, and even with the rate of spread of the pathogens, but ultimately the microbiota will win, no matter what you eat. These bugs have been around Homo sapiens at least since the Neolithic period.
With a disabled VDR the human immune system cannot function, nor can its cancer defenses. Full stop. There is no doubt...
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garyv
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 00:31 |
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Thank you, Dr. Marshall, for your most helpful reply. I can certainly see where the CWD pathogens could be the responsible agents for my gut issues, which I may indeed have only put into a temporary "remission" of sorts with my dietary restrictions. It still seems, however, that the increase in vitality and apparent immunity from colds and flus that I also experienced might be due to an unburdening, if you will, of my immune system from having to deal with antigenic breakdown products of metabolically inappropriate foods.
It's also occurred to me that such dietary restrictions may be helpful in mitigating immunopathology as I proceed through the MP. I guess time will tell!
A final thought: It's most interesting that you mentioned Neolithic times as the period of genesis of the CWD pathogens, since that is also the period when man began eating grains and dairy products that had never before been available to him. Might this confluence signify some form of symbiotic relationship?
With gratitude,
Gary in Virgina
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DxOsteoporosis/osteoarthritis/Raynauds/paresthesia/tinnitus 1,25D69 Ph1Mar08 Ph3Jan09 25D44(Apr09) no meds or light avoidance, covered in direct sunlight only
"Fear not the path of truth for the lack of people walking on it.” –Arabic proverb
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dymi
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 20:27 |
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I would like to ask maybe stupid question. But could someone tell me what are the little moving dots on the life blood analysis (visible only in dark field). Naessens calls them somatides. They seem to be in every life blood picture including Andys Write's famous video. I would like to know the MP point of view.
for example this video:
http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=Py-hutc5ZNM
Thx. Petr
Last edited on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 20:42 by dymi
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Lyme neuro joint/neck pain 125D62 Ph1Jan08 no non-MP meds 25D13(Apr08) NoIRs covered up outside low lux
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 21:24 |
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Petr,
These artifacts are not what are making you ill.
Anybody can set themself up as an expert on YouTube. But nobody else has dared to encourage their "successes" and "failures" to freely communicate over the Internet. Focus on results, not on personalities or vague promises.
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