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Sallie Q
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Posted: Mon Jun 8th, 2009 06:35 |
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jlunn247 wrote: I believe our history for the last 20,000 years has been to avoid sun
and then go hunt at night
IMHO: dusk when the animals come down to the water hole to drink
quick kill for all the extended family, gut and throw in the campfire. have a singalong etc.....big breakfast at dawn and go to sleep all day (too full to move) 
rest of the week work on your broken tools while slower tribe members go out foraging for fruit and vegies
is there an anthropologist in the house to tell me what people were really doing when they just met our 'civilisation' ?
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20yrHotFlushSjogrensCFSb.cancer1990stress57-83 60%dysreg.vD 13.2 Sep08ph1 NoIRlowLux JanModPh2 May09Ph3 25DMay19ng/ml,Aug11.2
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Sallie Q
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Posted: Mon Jun 8th, 2009 06:40 |
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P.S.
on this continent more like 60,000 years 
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20yrHotFlushSjogrensCFSb.cancer1990stress57-83 60%dysreg.vD 13.2 Sep08ph1 NoIRlowLux JanModPh2 May09Ph3 25DMay19ng/ml,Aug11.2
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kenc
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Mon Jun 8th, 2009 21:48 |
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Sallie Q,
I'm not an anthropologist. So don't expect any answers on this question from me. However, I think I've gathered enough wisdom over the years to realize that scientists (and anthropologists) and just about everyone else tend to project their beliefs onto whatever they are studying. So, I would keep this in mind when reading about early humans from an anthropologist. You may find the book The Century of the Gene by EF Keller interesting. She describes how, until recently, the male view of hierarchy and dominance has determined the course of genetic research and has led to many fictions in this field. According to her even the concept of the gene is now on shaky ground. She's not a feminist. She is a physicist with an interest in molecular and mathematical biology. I think the truly objective scientist is a myth. It may be interesting to draw inferences from the past but I think the present state of our biology is all we can really count on.
KenLast edited on Mon Jun 8th, 2009 21:52 by kenc
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Crohn's Disease 1984, 24May05 1,25D=33 25D=8.4, 6Sep05 1,25D=29 25D=12, 11Jun07 25D=<10.4 1,25D=10, 15Sep07 1,25D=14.2 25D=16, 12Jul05 Phase1 + pred, 12Jul06 Phase2 + pred/dexa, 14Aug07 Phase2, prednisone, dexamethasone, testosterone, aspirin, levothyr
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Wojta
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Posted: Sun Jun 14th, 2009 20:51 |
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IMHO: dusk when the animals come down to the water hole to drink quick kill for all the extended family, gut and throw in the campfire. have a singalong etc.....big breakfast at dawn and go to sleep all day (too full to move)
I don't want to go far from the topic of the thread, but my opinion is that I can hardly believe pre-historic men were living mostly out of the daylight and hunting at night. Just comparing human's poor vision at night, poor hearing, weak smelling or heat detection abilities with many of the animal species makes me believe that we would become rather prey than hunters if we dared to hunt at dusk or night.
For the teenage pregnancy vs latitude graphics:
- I don't want to be the only one with different opinion once again, but to me the effect of climate on teenage pregnancies makes sense - sure that's not by less clothes worn during the day, but difference in behavior between south and north allows people to spend more time outside in warmer climate. While kids in the north have to spend the cold nights at home under survaillance of their parents whether they want or not, in the south they have many more options of getting out of the house at night, where as one can imagine they get much more privacy just from the dark of the night to do what they want  .
Also, the Florida state just confirms this - older population here lowers the teenage pregnancy ratios, which is still a bit elevated compared with norther states.
Unfortunately I am still missing a peace of the puzzle for cancer - Vit.D - latitude relation explanation  .
However, MP seems to be working for me, and that's what counts.
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Lyme, Feb08: 1,25D=43.9pg/ml, 25D=10.8ng/ml, 25D=8.7ng/ml on Jul 15 2008, Xyzal 5mg qd, covered up outside, NoIRs, no direct sunlight
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Joyful
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Posted: Mon Jun 15th, 2009 00:39 |
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Wojta,
Have you reviewed this page in the new MP knowledge base: Latitude studies on vitamin D and disease?
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Lyme?1980 Lyme/Babs/Bart?05 CFS?06 | Start 125D(50) 25D(32) Jun07 | Ph1Jul07 ModPh2Sep07 Ph2Feb08 Ph3Aug08 | Latest 25D(9) Apr09 | ABC of MP
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jlunn247
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Posted: Mon Jun 15th, 2009 01:03 |
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YUP ME TIRED MACS ARE BETTER.
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Sarc/lungs/joint pain TMJnerve pain 125D56 25D16 Ph1Mar07 ModPh2Jun07 Ph2Nov07 PHase3Feb08 albuterol
dark sunglasses hands & face exposed. Medium herx
mostly.june09
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jlunn247
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Posted: Mon Jun 15th, 2009 01:58 |
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HOW COME WE HUMANS HAVE DESTROYED THE WORLD
AND HAVE ONLY BEEN AROUND FOR A BRIEF MOMENT IN HISTORY?
IS THAT WHAT WE ARE HERE FOR ? PROBABLY.
THANKS FOR ALL THE FISH BYE.
Editors comment: what is 6x7?
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Sarc/lungs/joint pain TMJnerve pain 125D56 25D16 Ph1Mar07 ModPh2Jun07 Ph2Nov07 PHase3Feb08 albuterol
dark sunglasses hands & face exposed. Medium herx
mostly.june09
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TikBitten
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Posted: Mon Jun 15th, 2009 06:16 |
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Not sure how to respond to all of the above...but a question which continues to elude me on the nature of Vitamin D intake, however, is this...
"How does supplemental D3, cholecalciferol, differ from D3 produced in the skin or organs (i.e., kidney or liver) and/or down-regulated counter-parts?"
...and wondering, of course, how it varies metabollically inf the following states:
-> Individuals with functioning VDRs,
-> Individuals with compromised VDRs,
-> Individuals with highly suppressed VDRs
Hoping objective rather than anecdotal opinion prevails here,
TB
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Dx: Borreliosis/Neurborreliosis 8/05|25SecD=46 1,25SecD=62 10/07|25SecD and sun avoidance since 10/07|Using NoIRs since 3/08|25SecD=18 3/08|Ph1 3/08|25SecD=17 6/08|ModPh2 6/08|Ph2 9/08|Ph3 1/09|25SecD=13 3/09|25SecD=10 5/09|25SecD=11 7/09
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jlunn247
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Posted: Tue Jun 16th, 2009 00:14 |
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Who is the most wrong and in a position to dangerously affect the mp?
Besides ignorant mp ers.
I am not going to sit and be lectured by one more idiot doctor.
I have got a rope ready to string him up. A legal "rope" of course.
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Sarc/lungs/joint pain TMJnerve pain 125D56 25D16 Ph1Mar07 ModPh2Jun07 Ph2Nov07 PHase3Feb08 albuterol
dark sunglasses hands & face exposed. Medium herx
mostly.june09
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healingjason
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Tue Jun 16th, 2009 01:02 |
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There is a new study out about MS, supposed new genes causing MS and a role for vitamin D. Our local Melbourne media dutifully reported that a lack of vitamin D was likely a cause of MS, as promoted by the researchers. Here are a couple of links to the research done at the Uni of Melbourne.
June 15 2009
http://newsroom.melbourne.edu/news/n-67
I can't access the full text of the study but perhaps others can and can comment. Interesting to see if low levels of 25D were found in this MS study.
These people were also reported in March 2009 at
http://www.theage.com.au/national/vitamin-trial-bid-to-prevent-ms-20090318-915b.html
I think they believe that because more MS sufferers live in gloomy Tasmania compared to sunny Queensland then, circumstantially, a lack of vitamin D must be involved. I'm not sure that MS as a particular disease has been picked up in the knowledge base about latitudinal associations not meaning proof of effect insofar as vitamin D is concerned - I recall cancer is discussed.
John
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Dad of Jason, 12 yrs autistic boy. Chronic intra-cellular infection evident from abnormal urinary amino acids, as found by the Uni of Newcastle, Australia. Benicar 40 mg QW8H from 7 Apr 07. Phase 3 from 28 June 08. Covered up, sunscreen. 25D 10 (08/09).
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Aunt Diana
Moderator
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Posted: Tue Jun 16th, 2009 03:18 |
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It is interesting that the higher level of incidence of MS in Tasmania would lead researchers to conclude Vitamin D has something to do with it.
On the islands of Nantucket and Martha's Vineyard ( off the coast of Massachusetts) there is an unusually high incidence of MS. Of course, there is also a very high incidence of Lyme Disease. (The ticks are everywhere on those islands). This led me long ago to conclude that these diseases are one and the same. (I now realize that they are both TH1 illnesses...not necessarily the same but very similar)
And neither of them has anything to do with lack of Vitamin D...but more likely the presence of lyme disease carrying ticks. (Which of course the locals try to keep as quiet as possible since they depend on tourism for their livelihoods)
A history of Martha's Vineyard describes a population in the 1800s that had a high incidence of deafness...so every family (up til recent generations) had at least one deaf person. ( A common symptom of Lyme disease) They say that town hall meetings and community activities were all conducted in sign language...since it was the one common language to all.
This also came in handy when fishermen needed to communicate out at sea.
Researchers need to be a bit more open and a lot more curious. They all seem to have the same problem of starting out with a hypothesis that they want to prove and consequently leave a lot of possiblities just out there.
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Lyme 1987, neuro cardio fatigue achiness brain fog depression, anxiety. Pacemaker, D.1,25 32; D <5; 12/07 <6, hydrocodone, lorazapam, benedryl, zantac, colase, Noirs, cover-up or avoid sun, house <30lux. Feb 08 Phase 3. 6/08 D <4, D1,25
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jcwat101
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Posted: Tue Jun 16th, 2009 05:39 |
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TB,
I would say that the molecule formed in the skin vs. via ingestion is identical (that is assuming the D from ingestion is D3). What probably differs some is the dynamics of the production of various metabolites involved and the processing time etc... I don't think the answers are clearly known at this time to your questions, though.
The lack of knowledge regarding this was mentioned in a recent review where they were determining where more research was needed (Brannon et al 2008).
The only thing I know from my own experience is that I find that it takes about 14 -18 hours for me to start to experience effects from ingested D and takes more like 24 to 48 hours from sun derived D. And I find the effect lasts about 5 days unless I consume something like tea (high in CGA). This is different than my reaction at the beginning of the MP when my VDR was blocked.
Joyce Waterhouse
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20 yrs with CFS/FM/Lyme/IBS, food sensitivities; 1,25D/25D 8/04:64/11 http://SynergyHN.com
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TikBitten
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Tue Jun 16th, 2009 08:00 |
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Hello again,
I don't think the above posts were meant to address my previous question regarding D3 behavior across varying states of health, if so, my apologies.
In the paper I cited on June 5th (Veith) readily concluded vitamin D2 "Is not suitable for food or dietary supplementation." As far as I can see, and as far the MP study cohort should probably be concerned, this simply means one down (Vitamin D2) one to go, Vitamin D3. With regard to the rest of the article, Veith goes on to explain D3's direct effects on human VDR expression, which by just about anyone's definition categorizes D3 not as a vitamin but as an immune modulating compound. This is the reason as to why I asked for feedback on D3's relation to metabolic human states of health, it allows us to focus on the following:
1) If in healthy individuals Sec-1,25D (the secosteroid formally known as Vitamin 1,25D) is readily down-regulated to D3, absent systemic or acute infection, D3 remains high and 1,25D low. If this statement is in fact correct, the question begging to be asked is this:
"If there's no difference between synthetic D3 and endogenous D3 why do healthy individuals need it and, if so, what's the FDA's justification (aside from Ricketts??) for fortifying the food supply with it?" 2) If the biofilm and microbacterial implications of the MP are correct, individuals with suppressed VDR's must avoid it all together. So again, what's the ongoing justification for fortifying the food supply or supplements with it?
3) Finally, if the majority of the population according the NIH is contending with subclinical, yet ongoing microbacterial infection, and increasingly compromised VDR expression, why would they want to be exposed to it? Especially if supplemented forms of D3 are neither metabolically or chemically different from endogenous forms.
In short, if healthy individuals don't need, sick people can't have it and the jury's out on everyone in between why should the FDA continue to fortify the food supply with it? Especially, since according to Veith, this is actually an immunmodulating drug. It appears to me that, at best, D3 should be classified as a controlled substance, prescribed only by a physician and only for highly specific immune conditions!! But data on the chemical and/or metabolic differences between the two forms of D3 seems pertinent before further argument can be made or justified.
Hoping the topic advances,
TB
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Dx: Borreliosis/Neurborreliosis 8/05|25SecD=46 1,25SecD=62 10/07|25SecD and sun avoidance since 10/07|Using NoIRs since 3/08|25SecD=18 3/08|Ph1 3/08|25SecD=17 6/08|ModPh2 6/08|Ph2 9/08|Ph3 1/09|25SecD=13 3/09|25SecD=10 5/09|25SecD=11 7/09
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TikBitten
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Posted: Tue Jun 16th, 2009 09:03 |
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Joyce-
There are a numerous articles by Brannon, would you happen to have a specific link to that document?
tx,
TB
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Dx: Borreliosis/Neurborreliosis 8/05|25SecD=46 1,25SecD=62 10/07|25SecD and sun avoidance since 10/07|Using NoIRs since 3/08|25SecD=18 3/08|Ph1 3/08|25SecD=17 6/08|ModPh2 6/08|Ph2 9/08|Ph3 1/09|25SecD=13 3/09|25SecD=10 5/09|25SecD=11 7/09
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Freddie Ash
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Tue Jun 16th, 2009 13:42 |
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HI TIKBITTEN
This is Fred in WV. Tikbitten wroten, "...THIS IS ACTUALLY AN IMMUNMODULATING DRUG. IT APPEARS TO ME THAT, AT BEST, D3 SHOULD BE CLASSEFIED AS A CONTROLLED SUBSTANCE, PRESCRIBED ONLY BY PHYSICIAN AND ONLY FOR HIGHLY SPECIFIC IMMUNE CONDITIONS."
I made that type of statement some where at this site back when Dr Marshall first told us that it was a secosteroid. So I agree that it should on be a Rx from a doctor not just added to our food all the time. Look at all the obesity and it may be from all the "steroid vit-D" they are eating from all the food.
Remember, we are all in this together and I am pulling for us.
Your friend in Sarcoidosis
Freddie
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Freddie: dx-sarc 2/82 lymph; skin, eyes, joints, esophagus, intestines, spleen, heart,lungs-meds digitek, L-thyroxine, nexium, furosemide, nattokinase36mg,eat cinnamon w/meals,25D-7; 125-D43
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jcwat101
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Posted: Tue Jun 16th, 2009 16:28 |
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TB,
Here is the Brannon article abstract: http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/88/2/587S
They have a much more cautious and circumspect view of vitamin D -- recognizing that the current dogma advocated by some D enthusiasts has a lot of inadequacies and that dangers have not been sufficiently assessed.
Brannon is also on the Institute of Medicine committee that will be reviewing the evidence on vitamin D and calcium. The people on this committee don't include any of the big advocates (Cannell complained about this bitterly). I have sent them a number of articles (by ARF members, plus the Payne article on brain lesions). So, hopefully, they will be more open to our views.
Joyce Waterhouse
PS Another difference between supplemental and sun-derived D is that supplemental D can be increased indefinitely without limit, whereas, there is more limitation on what vitamin D most get from the sun (and that requires full body exposure on a daily basis for the maximum, which most don't do)
Last edited on Tue Jun 16th, 2009 16:40 by jcwat101
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20 yrs with CFS/FM/Lyme/IBS, food sensitivities; 1,25D/25D 8/04:64/11 http://SynergyHN.com
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Caitiegirl
Member in Phase 2
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Posted: Wed Jun 17th, 2009 01:16 |
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Joyce,
Pardon my denseness but do you mean that the body can't produce as much 1,25 D as it can get through suppementation because we wear clothes and aren't in the sun 24/7 or does the body actually down regulate production of 1,25 D once it has "enough"?
Mindy
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Caitlin(18) lyme, seizures, myoclonus, dystonia, digestive, chronic headache, mental fog: 10/23/07 25D 36 1,25D 58, 1/12/09/5.7, 1/18/08 25D 9.9 Cut sun/D 9/26/07 Benicar 10/25/07, NoIRs 10/29/07
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jcwat101
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Posted: Wed Jun 17th, 2009 04:13 |
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CG,
There is a limit to how much is produced in the skin. I can't recall the details of the mechanism but it is well-established. A given area of skin when exposed to the sun stops making more vitamin D after about 20 to 30 minutes (for Caucasians, longer for darker skin). So, once an area of skin has been exposed for that long, one has produced the maximum for that area of skin for that day. To increase the amount, one would need to do a larger area of skin and/or expose the skin every day. I remember once estimating that I produced about 400 IU by having my hands exposed to outdoor light for 20 minutes or longer (without zinc oxide sunscreen). It takes longer to produce that maximum if you have zinc oxide containing sunscreen on. But if you are out long enough, it will be like not having on any sunscreen (as a certain percentage of the light gets through).
Joyce Waterhouse
Last edited on Wed Jun 17th, 2009 04:22 by jcwat101
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20 yrs with CFS/FM/Lyme/IBS, food sensitivities; 1,25D/25D 8/04:64/11 http://SynergyHN.com
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Deedee
Member in Phase 2
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Posted: Wed Jun 17th, 2009 04:48 |
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That is interesting information on sun exposure. Thanks for the info.
It is my understanding from recent posts that it is now thought the most of the D is obtained through the diet. Is this right? I do not cloister myself from light, but I am always covered when I go outside, including the zinc and a hat, long sleeves, long pants and gloves when driving, plus of course the NOIRS. My D is 15. I am very careful not to consume D. I think it will be less the next time.
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Sarc in lymph nodes. D15. Modified Ph II; Mino/Clindy; Benicar 4X/day. Lipids high. 7/07 check-up: Normal PFTs/CXR improved; Quecentin/guaifensin if lymph nodes hurt. Began MP 8/08
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kenc
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Wed Jun 17th, 2009 08:44 |
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I wonder how 1,25D and 25D production from the sun are being measured. Are these measurements taken locally from the exposed skin or systemically by a blood sample? I keep thinking 1,25D and 25D production from the sun is mostly for local use, that is tissue repair from UV light damage. Does anyone know?
KenLast edited on Wed Jun 17th, 2009 08:45 by kenc
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Crohn's Disease 1984, 24May05 1,25D=33 25D=8.4, 6Sep05 1,25D=29 25D=12, 11Jun07 25D=<10.4 1,25D=10, 15Sep07 1,25D=14.2 25D=16, 12Jul05 Phase1 + pred, 12Jul06 Phase2 + pred/dexa, 14Aug07 Phase2, prednisone, dexamethasone, testosterone, aspirin, levothyr
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