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eClaire
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Posted: Wed Apr 22nd, 2009 20:32 |
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I haven't been following this discussion in a while and I am wondering if the advice that maybe one small coffee a day is out, is the idea that I can use one apple a day as a palliative out as well. (Same chemical I believe.) I only eat 0 to 2 apples a week, but if going through a really terrible time, I might eat more. I usually only eat what I need (e.g., 1/3 of an apple if that is all that is needed).
So far an apple is the only thing I've found (aside from icing for pain) as an all round sx palliative.
Thanks for the clarification.
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38mo on MP; CFS FMS MCS COPD hypermob. IBS/GERD osteopor.; 125D48 25D<4;
NoIRs during most daylight outings & covered up; home w/o NoIRs
Ph1.Dec06 * ModPh2.Jun07 * AbxBrk.Mar-May08 * Ph2.Oct-Nov08 * Ph1.Jan2009
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Kas
Member in Phase 2
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Posted: Wed Apr 22nd, 2009 21:14 |
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Hi Claire,
Apples are a source of quercetin, so perhaps that is why you are finding it palliative. Have you tried taking quercetin caps ( around 250 ml) at a time? I find them to be very helpful for certain IP's.
I have cut coffee back to one weak cup of the instant stuff once every week or two weeks, as I find it sometimes helps with my IP's and it gives me the lift I need, but I often go without any for weeks at a time. I use about a small teaspoon of coffee and add some almond ( no D added) organic milk. It's a good treat once in a while!
Feel better.
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Sarc Dx by splenectomy 03- Lungs, lymph nodes, liver. Non MP meds: natural progesterone cream three weeks a month; cal/mag; probiotics; milk thistle daily; cranberry caps prn; quercetin prn.Noirs outdoors and under flourescent work lights, Spectra 3 cream
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eClaire
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 00:21 |
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Quercetin itself (the caps) has caused pretty severe rebound IP and so I've been nervous about trying it again. Apples have worked from the beginning; I stumbled onto that before we started talking about it here. I thought that apple skins (and most pears) also had Chlorogenic Acid, which is why I posted this here. Thanks for the information KAS.
Claire
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38mo on MP; CFS FMS MCS COPD hypermob. IBS/GERD osteopor.; 125D48 25D<4;
NoIRs during most daylight outings & covered up; home w/o NoIRs
Ph1.Dec06 * ModPh2.Jun07 * AbxBrk.Mar-May08 * Ph2.Oct-Nov08 * Ph1.Jan2009
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jcwat101
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 04:48 |
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I want say that if you need a little palliation, and you find it works for you, a little apple would be O.K. Tea also has chlorogenic acid and we haven't ruled that out. But I would keep it to a low level and suggest that antibiotic and other adjustments are preferable for managing the IP level than other methods (like chlorogenic acid containing substances). My own experience indicates pear does not have a significant amount of chlorogenic acid.
Joyce Waterhouse
Last edited on Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 04:50 by jcwat101
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20 yrs with CFS/FM/Lyme/IBS, food sensitivities; 1,25D/25D 8/04:64/11 http://SynergyHN.com
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eClaire
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 05:32 |
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| Thanks Joyce. I do try to keep apple ingestion to a minimum and change abx instead (and at the same time, not throw every apple out of the house...I try to keep three on hand in case I get a strong IP that needs palliation...before a decrease in abx can help). So sometimes I enjoy an apple when I don't need it for palliation. I rarely drink tea (never coffee), and I tend to drink it for pleasure very weak when I do, as apples are the real deal when it comes to palliation for me. Thanks again, Claire
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38mo on MP; CFS FMS MCS COPD hypermob. IBS/GERD osteopor.; 125D48 25D<4;
NoIRs during most daylight outings & covered up; home w/o NoIRs
Ph1.Dec06 * ModPh2.Jun07 * AbxBrk.Mar-May08 * Ph2.Oct-Nov08 * Ph1.Jan2009
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garyv
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 15:29 |
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Like CelticLadee noted early in this thread, I eat an apple every day in the a.m. (that plus a few frozen sour cherries from my orchard is my sole breakfast/lunch), and I do not notice any palliative effects at all.
However, I DO PEEL my apples (and have for well over a decade) for 2 reasons other than their potential chlorogenic acid content:- They are not organic (although I do pick them myself at an orchard in the mts.)
- Apple skin is a "harsh" fiber (like that in raw celery, broccoli, cauliflower, carrots and other root veggies) which can irritate the ileocecal valve in many with a sensitive gut (most all of us here?) and put stress on the gall bladder, thereby causing weakened fat absorption which decreases cell membrane strength and innate immunity in general.
This last tidbit I learned from a book by Jonn Matsen, N.D. (republished as "Eating Alive") and found the truth of it through my own experience. It's also worth noting here that one of the significant improvements at my 10-month mark on the MP was improved fat digestion (smaller, more frequent and sinking, rather than floating, stools).
Matsen also says when the ileocecal valve is irritated by sharp cutting fiber such as that in apple peel and wheat bran, this compromises it's function of preventing microbes in the colon from getting into the small intestine where their waste products (and CWD forms?) can potentially be absorbed.
It would be interesting to find out, Clair, whether the palliation you note is derived from the apple itself or from the skin. As we all know, palliation from certain substances (like Vitamin D and sunshine) may not be desirable in the long term.
I have also found that avoiding all nightshade vegetables (tomatoes, potatoes, peppers, eggplant, tobacco) may be critical in reducing the inflammatory symptoms that many of us experience as immunopathology (I'll be posting about that in another thread).
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DxOsteoporosis/osteoarthritis/Raynauds/paresthesia/tinnitus 1,25D69 Ph1Mar08 Ph3Jan09 25D31(Jan10) no meds or NOIRs, covered in direct sunlight only
"Fear not the path of truth for the lack of people walking on it.” –Arabic proverb
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 16:09 |
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Matsen also says when the ileocecal valve is irritated by sharp cutting fiber such as that in apple peel and wheat bran, this compromises it's function of preventing microbes in the colon from getting into the small intestine where their waste products (and CWD forms?) can potentially be absorbed.
What rubbish. Why do scientists try to simplify complex systemic behavior to this level? All cells are porous to L-forms. Infected immune cells travel throughout the body. Macro concepts such as advanced by Matsen have no role to play in modern Medicine.
As for apples,
if I remember correctly, the Chlorogenic Acid is in a layer beneath the skin, to prevent entry to the fruit by pathogens.
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garyv
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 16:39 |
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Dr. Marshall, forgive me if I misled. Matsen said nothing about L-forms; that was my own ignorant editorial (parenthetical) speculation.
I doubt very much if Matsen knows anything at all about L-forms. In any case, the book I was referencing was published 22 years ago.
His observation on ileocecal valve functioning, however, I found to be true in my own experience, and my digestive function took a giant leap forward when I eliminated scratchy fiber from my diet. After all, we're not exactly designed by Nature to eat a lot of cellulose like cows and sheep, are we? 
Having had years of rather severe gut problems behind me now (ongoing from about age 25 to 45), I found out just how debilitating and discouraging they can be. As I've said before, my gut immunopathology has been minimal since going on the MP nearly 14 months ago (and for a decade prior), while kidney/anemia/muscle herxing continue unabated into at least the 10th month now.
So IMHO elucidation of certain food and gut function issues may be helpful to those who are still experiencing significant gut immunopathology.
Just trying to "pay it forward."
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DxOsteoporosis/osteoarthritis/Raynauds/paresthesia/tinnitus 1,25D69 Ph1Mar08 Ph3Jan09 25D31(Jan10) no meds or NOIRs, covered in direct sunlight only
"Fear not the path of truth for the lack of people walking on it.” –Arabic proverb
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 16:46 |
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Gary,
I know it might sound reasonable for you to think in terms of "scratchy" fibre, but I will guarantee that the scratchyness of the fibre in your diet has little or nothing to do with reflux of bacterial species from the colon to the intestine.
Our whole understanding of GI tract science has changed within the last several years, especially with the understanding that innate immunity is active, more so than adaptive immunity (as was previously believed).
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Lottis
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Posted: Wed Nov 25th, 2009 16:11 |
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In 1995, NASA’s Dr. David Noever and his fellow researchers at the Marshall Space Flight Center studied the webs spun by common house spiders (Araneus diadematus) dosed with several drugs, including LSD, marijuana, benzedrine, chloral hydrate and caffeine. The more toxic the drug, the less organized the web the spider created.
The spider on marijuana drifted off before finishing the job. The spider on benzedrine, an upper, worked energetically but without much planning. The spider dosed with chloral hydrate, a sedative, soon fell asleep. To the surprise of Dr. Noever et al, caffeine did the most damage of all the substances tested. The spider dosed with it proved incapable of creating even a single organized cell, and its web showed no sign of the “hub and spokes” pattern fundamental to conventional web design... http://caffeineweb.com/ .....go to the end of the page
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HTN,LVH,CHF,arrhythmia,hypercholesterol,IBS? fibromyalgia?salivarystones,gallstones,ect...|15feb-07 init. 1,25D 37,5,|25-D 7,8(latest 15/2-07)| Ph1 29/7-08| Palliativ Meds. at the present; |Zoloft|NoIR's|covered up|disabled|
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Sunset
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Posted: Wed Nov 25th, 2009 20:49 |
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What an interesting article Lottis. Oh, the poor spider on caffeine!  I've never been able to tolerate caffeine since the time I was a child. Even in small amounts it makes me feel very anxious!
I was reading a quote written by Roland R. Griffiths, Ph.D, The Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine on this same webpage that you posted. He states that "It has been noted that caffeine intoxication can occur in someone who has been using caffeine for many years with no prior apparent problems."
This makes me think that perhaps Th1 illness is involved here. It seems to me like there's a tipping point; that a person's particular bacterial load or even the status of his immune system is involved. For example, could one trigger be an excess intake of Vit D followed by suppressed immune function. This could lead to the accumulation of pathogens in the liver which in turn could lead to a decreased clearance of caffeine in the body.
I wonder if a caffeine clearance test could be useful in determining the likelihood of whether or not an individual is reaching that "tipping point" before the development of the symptoms of Th1 illness?
Best regards,
Sunset 
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FM, CFS, migr HA, low adrenal, RBC coinfection 11/07 1,25D70, 25D48, 7/08 25-D 21;11/08 25-D 22; 2/09 25-D 15.6; 7/09 25-D 11; 10/09 25-D 5ng/mL. olmesart 40mg+20mg SL, T4 25mcg QAM, T3 7.5mcg BID. NoIRs/limit lite exp
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Thu Nov 26th, 2009 04:10 |
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Oh, if only medicine could be as simple as "liver clearance," then the chelation proponents would have been able to effect a cure, rather than just a temporary palliation.
The precise operation of the human metabolism is infinitely more complex than any of us can ever hope to comprehend... The more we understand, the more we realize we don't know...
In 1978 my early medical research colleagues booked me into hospital to be weaned off a plethora of medicinal drugs, including strong, fresh-brewed coffee, upon all of which I had become dependent for palliation. Today I can drink coffee without any effect whatsoever - it's just another drink (although it does smell good )
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eClaire
Member in Phase 2
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Posted: Thu Nov 26th, 2009 16:43 |
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Dr. Marshall you give me hope that one day I'll be able to enjoy the great treat of coffee. It wasn't until about two months before starting the MP that I discovered coffee was good! I'd always tried it with cream, thinking I could not tolerate it black. I don't know how people tolerate it with cream!!! I discovered that black coffee w/ just a tiny bit of sugar (or agave) tastes like liquid chocolate to me and what a treat that would be if I could have it once a day!
In thinking about early signs for TH1, I am thinking we may already have one in the form of allergies of any sort. Family history would be a good early detector as well. I mean, if family members are dropping from disease at an early age, then it is probably likely that the children of such people are well on their way to being sick. At any rate, that makes sense to me.
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38mo on MP; CFS FMS MCS COPD hypermob. IBS/GERD osteopor.; 125D48 25D<4;
NoIRs during most daylight outings & covered up; home w/o NoIRs
Ph1.Dec06 * ModPh2.Jun07 * AbxBrk.Mar-May08 * Ph2.Oct-Nov08 * Ph1.Jan2009
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Thu Nov 26th, 2009 20:13 |
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Indeed, as Amy just wrote:
http://www.aacijournal.com/content/5/1/8/comments#384657
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scooker48
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Sat Nov 28th, 2009 17:32 |
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Recently I consumed a very small amount of coffee for no more than five days, and then went to my routine bimonthly visit to the MP doctor.
My blood pressure systolic number jumped to 140; I don't recall what the diastolic was. My MP doctor asked me to monitor it twice a day, and said she would be "forced to take action" if it didn't come down.
I d/c the coffee and my blood pressure is now 90/65 for the last week.
The MP journey is long and quite fascinating, no?
Sherry
P.S. Hot water with small amounts of half & half flavored with vanilla is a suitable substitute.
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Necrotizing granulomas biopsy 10/88; Dx 12/04 Sarcoid liver spleen. 2/2/05: VitD 25/VitD125 62. 11/7/09 D25 at 6, Liver function normal 4/08; Wear NoIRs outside. No K creme used. 5/09 Liver and kidneys normal. ACE still high at 113 on 11/7/09.
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Tue Dec 8th, 2009 14:25 |
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A new paper is out - summarized at: http://bit.ly/5KTctp
"Coffee May Lower Risk of Aggressive Prostate Cancer"
"Dr. Wilson, who presented study findings at the American Association for Cancer Research Frontiers in Cancer Prevention Research Conference in Houston, said caffeine is not the key factor in this association"
hmmm...
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eClaire
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Posted: Tue Dec 8th, 2009 14:36 |
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What I'd like to see is those stats in a particular age group of men who are then followed for the next 20 years to see what, if any other, conditions they develop eventually.
Claire
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38mo on MP; CFS FMS MCS COPD hypermob. IBS/GERD osteopor.; 125D48 25D<4;
NoIRs during most daylight outings & covered up; home w/o NoIRs
Ph1.Dec06 * ModPh2.Jun07 * AbxBrk.Mar-May08 * Ph2.Oct-Nov08 * Ph1.Jan2009
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Cynthia Schnitz
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Tue Dec 8th, 2009 16:43 |
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| Perhaps of some interest, I am having a couple of cups of coffee in the morning, and occasionally a one or 2 more a little later. Have noticed that my herxing is a little more obvious in the later part of the day and during the night. Since I seem to be over the hump in terms of being slowed down by the MP, and my significant other is scheduled to go on the MP in January, his education to get him over his skepticism being a prime mover in my urge to moved rapidly thru the early part of the MP, I am quite happy with this slowed rate of progress on the MP. Cynthia
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Ph1 10/08, Ph2 12/08, Ph3 6/09, 125/25D 47/43 preMP, 25D14 12/09, Estradiol .75mg, Calcium anomaly(gone?), Spondylitis, early Diverticulosis, early Macular Degeneration(AMD), Type II Diabetes (unconfirmed,PreDiabetes?), returning sense smell
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Joyful
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Posted: Wed Dec 9th, 2009 03:55 |
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Just as another data point here: A couple of times I have had a cup of decaf coffee when eating out. Each time I have felt a break from some symptoms for a couple of hours after.
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