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wrotek
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Posted: Mon Apr 30th, 2007 14:35 |
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Greg found this really interesting study 
Caffeine decreases vitamin D receptor protein expression and 1,25(OH)2D3 stimulated alkaline phosphatase activity in human osteoblast cells.
http://tinyurl.com/2dzdn7
"Caffeine dose dependently decreased the 1,25(OH)(2)D(3) induced VDR expression and at concentrations of 1 and 10mM, VDR expression was decreased by about 50-70%, respectively."Last edited on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 14:35 by wrotek
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Lyme reflux chronic pain fatigue depression 125D36 Ph1Sep05 Ph2Oct06 Ph3Apr07 homebound in low lux NoIRs 25D<7 Oct06
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scooker48
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Posted: Mon Apr 30th, 2007 15:43 |
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Wow, and Thank you.
The levels of caffeine quoted in this study would translate to how many cups of weak green tea? Steeped 15 seconds?
Sherry
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Necrotizing granulomas biopsy 10/88; Dx 12/04 Sarcoid liver spleen. 2/2/05: VitD 25/VitD125 62. 04/07/08 D25 <7.0 L, Liver function normal 4/08; Wear NoIRs outside & for computer screen time. No K creme used.
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wrotek
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Posted: Mon Apr 30th, 2007 16:36 |
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Good question, how much coffees too.
Here is full text http://tinyurl.com/ytdreo
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wrotek
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Posted: Tue May 1st, 2007 22:05 |
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| I am very curious, how much CGA is in tea ? Last edited on Tue May 1st, 2007 23:09 by wrotek
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jcwat101
Research Professional
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Posted: Tue May 1st, 2007 22:43 |
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I can't tell you the amounts. I just know that when I made strong tea (soaking one bag for several minutes) it seemed to react almost as strongly as some coffee we got from a donut place. I'm sure different teas and coffees differ and would give a range of values. And weak tea (only steeped about 15 seconds) was less reactive, but still way up there.
Joyce
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20 yrs with CFS/FM/Lyme/IBS, food sensitivities; 1,25D/25D 8/04:64/11 1/05:22/6 9/05:1,25D=12 10/06:22/8, 4/07:25/<4 chewed Ben. 40mg q8h; Mod. P2: 2/23/05, P2: 4/06; P3: 1/1/07
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I love trees
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Posted: Wed May 2nd, 2007 13:07 |
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Reverting way back up to the study on caffeine/alkaline phosphatase/bone status: Aren't there too many variables in peoples' status relative to 1,25 D levels, alkaline phosphatase level and maybe even VDR genotype, to take anything concrete from the study to use upon ourselves? I would think they'd be starting with subjects who had 'normal' levels in those areas.
I'm wondering if, like so many studies, what means one thing for one individual, may mean something entirely different for another. As a very primary and somewhat unrelated example, but to explain my slant on this: I used to take a lot of vitamins/supplements, because I'd read this or that study that said, a particular vitamin was good for this or that part of the bodily system. After years of taking these supplements, and then having some testing done, I found that I'd gotten myself out of balance in many areas, with too much of this or too little of that in my system, and it was causing material results in my body. In other words, the studies I was reading only applied to people who had certain base chemistries, presumably 'normal' or average ones, and my chemistry was not normal or average. (Possibly because I had Th1 disease through the whole time.) So I was taking a lot of things that were making my situation worse, and vice versa, not taking things I really needed.
Healthy people need certain levels of 1,25 D and alkaline phosphatase, but if you're not starting out with healthy levels, how does that affect what you carry away from the study?
Maybe I'm missing something here, but I found the abstract inconclusive for me, especially when I read the long version.
If you see something wrong with my reasoning, let me know, I'd really like to fully understand the abstract and its meaning for us.
Carol
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Lyme/MS/Osteoporosis/IBS/WPW/Chronic hives - probios,mag.,silymarin. Oct06:125D=60,25D=26 /NoIRs /11-2-06 Benicar / avoiding light, D /using zinc oxide cream.
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Wed May 2nd, 2007 13:56 |
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Joyce,
Thanks for collating this list of foods. Not all of us have a reaction to foods, but when I was ill, I remember that the foods which used to give me the worst migraines are roughly in the same positions on your list (at the top) as I remember I used to rank them.
I don't know whether these foods would affect bug-killing in any way, in any case I remember that I wasn't so worried about long-term prognosis when lying on the bed for 24 hours wating for a paralytic migraine to ease
Once you eat a balanced diet, with a moderation of Vit-D-supplement-free cheese or yoghurt, a moderation of greens and fruits, and a moderation of other proteins, you should be able to avoid the ups-and-downs that excesses can cause.
The body can make many things by itself. Certainly the human body can make all the Vitamin D it needs by itself, and no supplementation is necessary, or desirable. But a healthy body needs a good balanced diet, with everything in moderation.
As to "How Much?" the answer is fairly simple. If you can go for 24 hours without feeling the need for more of something, then you are probably not addicted to it. If you absolutely have to have 3 coffees a day to avoid withdrawal, then you have a problem. One a day is fine. Two might be OK. Similar for juicing. If you can allow your digestion to settle 24 hours between cups then you probably are not having too much, and haven't developed a dependency (remember not to replace the coffee with pomegranate, for example, the effects of CA would be cumulative across all food intake).
Last edited on Fri May 4th, 2007 06:14 by Dr Trevor Marshall
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norman
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Posted: Thu May 3rd, 2007 12:47 |
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Joyce,
It seems that if we eliminate everything with vitamin D and Chlorogenic Acid, there isn't much left to eat - at least in terms of any generally recognized well balanced diet.  It seems now that fish green leafy vegetables, berries and a fair amount of fruits are now not recommended here. It seems ( no offense really) that we might make a list of foods that we can eat. It's SOOO frustrating!
My belly aching aside, I'm wondering what effects you and others are noticing when ingesting too much c. acid? I'm trying to understand what this c.acid is doing. Is it giving people bad side effects ? If so, what types of affects so I can see if I am being affected ? Also, it seems that this acid could be a reason why some are not seeing faster results with the MP, is that what is being suggested?
As for my progress, it seems to be very slow now, but was QUICK and fairly dramatic for the first 6 months ( not just about 2 years into it) , but then things tapered off after 6 mos to a year. Even then my D levels were high - initially 68/32. The last test was 27/ less than 5 , and my diet hasn't changed except for eating less D and staying out of the sun. So I guess I am wondering how much importance we have to place in this vs vitamin D levels and other dietary considerations. I'm just wondering where the powers that be feel this fits into the overall treatment.
Thanks....hope I worded so as to be inquisitive, but fair.
Last edited on Thu May 3rd, 2007 13:24 by norman
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Sarc| Ph3 approx 6/1,Acne/ increase skin lesions, anxiety/depression /High IgG and Iga for C. Pneumoniae,last d= 10
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Jacko
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Posted: Thu May 3rd, 2007 16:14 |
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Isn't decreased VDR expression always a bad thing, regardless of person?
If this is so, then I wonder why lithocholic acid (LCA), a potent VDR ligand, still induces colon cancer, despite the increased immunity.
http://www.oncolink.com/resources/article.cfm?c=3&s=8&ss=23&id=8406&month=05&year=2002
Could someone knowledgeable comment on LCA because a high-fat diet increases it and they say in this article that high-fat diet should be avoided because of that.
Also, I vaguely recall reading something like apples having 1/5th or 1/10th the amount of chlorogenic acid compared to coffee so it should be a minor problem. But maybe it isn't.Last edited on Thu May 3rd, 2007 16:49 by Jacko
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Soon Ph1| Dx asperger,probably CFS| Freegan 01-06| 02/07 NoD/Lite| NoIRs 03/07| Meds-Risperdal 3mg iv,Deprenyl 10mg| Supps-Phenylalanine, minerals w/0.5mg Kelp,B-vit w/o folate
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Meg Mangin R.N.
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Posted: Thu May 3rd, 2007 22:39 |
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Norman,
Joyce said,
Due to my extremely high sensitivity, I am going much farther in avoidance, at least temporarily, than most people would need to. At present, I limit myself to the foods without any chlorogenic acid. Most people on the MP would probably only need to avoid getting a very large amount of chlorogenic acid. My thought is that people who are advancing very well on the MP may not need to change their diet at all.
Rarely would someone need to alter their diet this extremely. Moderation is the key to consumption. Please see Chlorogenic Acid.
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Thu May 3rd, 2007 22:49 |
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Jacko,
I suspect that study is flawed. For a start, they didn't measure (or consider) the PXR receptor. That imperils just about everything they did, and all they concluded. Sometime I will get around to taking a closer look.
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Sedona
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Posted: Fri May 4th, 2007 00:50 |
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Well...Thank You
I was doing just fine on the phase 3 abx when one morning my husband was making his morning coffee using the expresso machine - he has this coffee ritual. I don't know why but I saw him mixing his elixir with absolute ecstasy and thought why not so I asked him to make me a cup. He looked at me with this 'are you sure about this' look on his face and I thought it can't do any harm. I only drink tea and I stay away from the green - I already had some bad reactions from the green.
Well holly cow! I had symptoms soon afterwards and I mean really bad. that was three weeks ago. As the symptoms waned I have been sleeping like a baby though. The coffee was delicious; was it worth it? Nope. All this at the tail end of the abx too. Now I know why - thanks!
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Sedona: Neural/Lung Sarc/ biopsy 9/96| Feb06 avoid light comm Ph1| 1,25D=60 25D=27 Nov06| Ph2 05/06| Ph3 11/06 |4/9/08 25,D=7 1,25D=54| homebound low lux NoIRs| mucinex cont. oxygen|
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wrotek
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Posted: Fri Dec 7th, 2007 07:52 |
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I have found a very large(involving 1,514 men and 1,528 women = 3000 people!), interesting study about positive association between coffee drinking and inflammatory markers .
An abstract (and full version ) http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/80/4/862
And here is the same study different article with nice comparison table between coffee drinking and inflammatory markers http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/80/4/862
Coffee mostly increases Interleuking 6 production.
This quote is from full version of the article
In the present work, we report a positive association between coffee consumption and IL-6 concentrations. It could be hypothesized that coffee increases IL-6 synthesis, which then affects CRP and SAAproduction in the liver.TNFis also involved in the acute-phase protein synthesis, but it was suggested that only IL-6 can stimulate synthesis of all acute-phase proteins involved in the inflammatory response—namely CRP, SAA, fibrinogen, and others (23). So coffee increases directly IL-6 and then the rest happens
Now it starts to be interesting.
When i was reading about Interleukin-6 http://www.thefutureforum.com/EmergingRiskMarker/Interleukin6.aspx
i have found this, just at the end of the article in "Perspective Treatments section"
Statins have been shown to reduce IL-6 levels in patients with familial and non-familial hypercholesterolaemia, and in individuals with obesity (Int J Cardiol 2001;77:247-53; Arterioscler Thromb Vasc Biol 2002;22:1194-9; Clin Chem 2002;48:877-83; Atherosclerosis 2003;169:283-91; Horm Metab Res 2003;35:479-85). These studies all used simvastatin or atorvastatin. However, atorvastatin did not reduce IL-6 levels in patients in the MIRACL trial, all of whom sustained a recent acute coronary syndrome (Circulation 2003;108:1560-6).
Patients recovering from an acute coronary syndrome have shown a reduction in IL-6 levels in response to cyclo-oxygenase-2 inhibition (rofecoxib; Chest 2004;125:1610-5). In addition, the angiotensin receptor blocker irbesartan, has been shown to reduce IL-6 levels in patients with CAD, who have undergone angioplasty (J Am Coll Cardiol 2004;44:362-8). In poorly controlled diabetics, improvements in glycaemic control also appear to reduce plasma IL-6 levels (Diabet Med 2003;20:930-4).
Both simvastatin ( atorvastatin did not reduce IL-6 levels)and irbesartan have been associated with a deacrease in IL-6 production and identified as a VDR agonist by Dr Marshall, which can be read in here http://curemyth1.org/view_topic.php?id=39&forum_id=2&highlight=simvastatin
Is it probable then, that inflammatory markers increase resulting from coffee consumption, is from chlorogenic acid content and it's antagonistic properties on a VDR ?
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Lyme reflux chronic pain fatigue depression 125D36 Ph1Sep05 Ph2Oct06 Ph3Apr07 homebound in low lux NoIRs 25D<7 Oct06
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wrotek
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Posted: Fri Dec 7th, 2007 07:57 |
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Sedona, do You have any reactions like these after black or green tea ?
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mercuryspice
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Posted: Fri Dec 7th, 2007 08:15 |
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hi,
does drinking coffee make the MP not work?
thanks
lisa
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Fri Dec 7th, 2007 08:42 |
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Lisa,
Being addicted to coffee generally indicates a physical need for its immunosuppressive properties, which will slow the ability of the MP to restore your immune system.
The paper just cited by Wrotek says that amounts under 100ml a day should have little effect. I guess that's about one smallish cup.
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Fri Dec 7th, 2007 08:49 |
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Wrotek asked "Is it probable then, that inflammatory markers increase resulting from coffee consumption, is from chlorogenic acid content and it's antagonistic properties on a VDR ?"
The answer is not simple. The human immune system consists of many inter-dependent activities, and when the innate immune response is inhibited, whether by Th1 disease or by a drug (eg Chlorogenic Acid) then a cascade of actions will occur downstream amongst the cytokines. In the past I have taken the position that this immune cascade is imponderable, and have focused on the innate immune defect, which has turned out to be solvable. Once the VDR is restored to competence, the rest of the immune system also returns to balance.
What I mean by "I have taken the position that this immune cascade is imponderable" is that I consider it a waste of time to concentrate on the Trees, instead of standing back and observing the Forest.
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wrotek
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Posted: Fri Dec 7th, 2007 09:03 |
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I see.
Dr Marshall do You think these two compounds may have some VDR activity ?
http://www.food-info.net/uk/products/coffee/kahweol.htm
Their shapes are somehow similar to steroids i think.
Last edited on Fri Dec 7th, 2007 09:03 by wrotek
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Lyme reflux chronic pain fatigue depression 125D36 Ph1Sep05 Ph2Oct06 Ph3Apr07 homebound in low lux NoIRs 25D<7 Oct06
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Fri Dec 7th, 2007 09:04 |
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They look too rigid.
But the only way to be sure is to run the computations, and I am too busy to do that right now.
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wrotek
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Posted: Fri Dec 7th, 2007 09:08 |
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I wish i knew how to run computations Btw it would be nice to start a global project (like SETI) to search for VDR ligands
Dr Marshall is there any plug and play computation software ?
Last edited on Fri Dec 7th, 2007 09:09 by wrotek
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Lyme reflux chronic pain fatigue depression 125D36 Ph1Sep05 Ph2Oct06 Ph3Apr07 homebound in low lux NoIRs 25D<7 Oct06
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