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Moxie
Member in Phase 2/3
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Posted: Fri Oct 12th, 2007 16:21 |
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Toxoplasmosis is where I started on this long trek (25 year anniversary this month) of chronic ill health - scary little critters aren't they?
I don't binge eat anything and probably eat a lot less calories than most people and don't eat processed foods etc. This weight issue is something totally unrelated to food and exercise.
For instance, after about 18 months on MP, I lost over a period of time 10 kg without changing diet at all. Was very exciting time. Then after about 7 months, 5kg wandered back on again - no change in diet. After about another 4 months, an extra 5kg appeared.
That has not changed now for about 12 months. I seem to have a 'governor' on my weight. It never goes higher than 85kg and I effortlessly lose weight at some times for no particular reason and then effortlessly put it back again. Nothing to do with thyroid function or any other thing that we can put our finger on.
The one thing I know for sure is that we know about half a finger nail size of information on obesity. What a complex issue!!
Moxie
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CFS 25 years - FMS. Benicar 3 daily - Ph 2 16/5/05 - Ph 3 10/5/06 Metformin 500mg 1/2 bd. Vit D 45nmol/L (18ng/ml) 1,25 D 92pmol/L (38.3pg/ml)
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eClaire
Member in Phase 2
| Joined: | Mon Sep 25th, 2006 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 773 |
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Posted: Sat Oct 13th, 2007 01:07 |
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News article "Scientists explain chocolate craving" (has to do with the bacteria in one's gut, as may cravings for other foods, and has implications for obesity):
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071012/ap_on_he_me/diet_chocolate_craving
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34mo on MP; CFS FMS MCS COPD hypermob. IBS/GERD osteopor.; 125D48 25D<4;
NoIRs during most daylight outings & covered up; home w/o NoIRs
Ph1.Dec06 * ModPh2.Jun07 * AbxBrk.Mar-May08 * Ph2.Oct-Nov08 * Ph1.Jan2009
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Mainer53
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Posted: Sat Oct 13th, 2007 01:19 |
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On the website http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gut_flora#_ref-Schwiertz_1
under the heading Carbohydrate fermentation and absorption
they say that biotin and vitamin K (probably the rarer form that is in cheese)
are example of nutrients that intestinal flora help us out with.
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Sat Oct 13th, 2007 03:31 |
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Mainer,
I don't want to 'dump on you' for your first post  but Wikipedia is an environment where armchair 'scientists', most of whom have never been in a real research team in their lives, try to piece together knowledge from the fragments available on the Internet. A good researcher, on the other hand, knows that the best science has not been published before, or if it has, the correct conclusions were not drawn. A good researcher has to produce results, not just a good-looking web page based on other people's knowledge (papers).
We all have a slightly different GI tract flora, yet some of us are very sick, and some of us think we are well. Schwiertz is working from a hypothesis that flora are necessary for 'Health' but our insights show that there are other things far more important, a complete microbiota that Schwiertz hasn't even dreamed of. Nor has he taken it into account when interpreting his own research results.
I have still to see a study which definitively shows that a certain combination of gut flora are necessary for life, or even for Health. The body can adjust to whatever flora is present, to a greater or lesser extent. Sure, changing the gut flora changes one's nutritional intake, and also makes people feel better/worse, but that seem to be because the flora affects the ability of the innate immune system to do its job fighting other pathogens. Indeed, certain combinations of gut flora can be weakly immunosuppressive.
If I had to simplify the science for you, I would say - "All that glitters is not gold".
Moderator's note: See Understanding Scientific Studies
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Mainer53
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Posted: Sun Oct 14th, 2007 18:24 |
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I am intrigued by your reference to "a complete microbiota." Where can I find out more?
There are some excellent posts on this forum. I have just started reading about Cell Wall Deficient bacteria, vitamin A receptors and how they affect innate immune response.
Long ago, I read a book which developed a theory on Crohn's disease by a man named Colm O'Morain. He said that granuloma in that disease grow because phagocytes can't digest invaders. He says that phagocytes are a secondary defense and that the primary defense might be disabled by the bacteria. He gives reduced migration rates of neutrophils as the disabling mechanism. Others have linked Crohn's disease with the mycobacterium Paratuberculosis. A woman doing research in Africa thought that the flesh eating mycobacterium Boruli evades immune response by emitting fat based chemicals, which she isolated. I wish I could remember her name. It was from an article in Discover about 10 years ago. The idea was that mycobacteria are fat-based and their signalling is fat-based. Research has been conducted mainly on protein-based bacteria. Vitamin D is a fat based vitamin and I wonder if Crohn's disease, the way mycobacteria evade the immune system and the work being done on Th1 are all related.
I find Wikipedia useful as a reference for my electronics technology students. I recommend certain pages to them only after I have reviewed them myself. It is a darned good encyclopedia. I have also found it useful for bootstrapping me into the study of a new subject. I agree that it is not a forum for exchange of research information.
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Mainer53
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Posted: Sun Oct 14th, 2007 18:41 |
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The information I couldn't remember in the last post is on the website
http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/sn_arc99/7_17_99/bob1.htm
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Sun Oct 14th, 2007 19:10 |
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I find Wikipedia useful as a reference for my electronics technology students
Indeed, Wikipedia is largely written by electronics technology students. Those who have defaced my work there have been posting to wikipedia using sock usernames claiming to medical students, inter alia. But they are not what they claim to be, and therein lies the real failure of wikipedia - anonymity plays no useful part in science, whether in peer review or in wikis.
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tickbite
Member in Phase 2/3
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Posted: Sun Oct 14th, 2007 22:28 |
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Remember that one kid who got busted as he portrayed himself to be some crazy awesome PhD? He was elevated on Wikipedia as one of the top administrators. Then everyone found out he was just a kid, with no credentials at all and they removed him.
Ah, the internet...
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"Lyme","CFS", Meningitis
Phase3 8-2-07, MP on hold 11/2007
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Julia
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Mon Oct 15th, 2007 00:47 |
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It is a darned good encyclopedia
Each page of Wikipedia is only as good as the person who wrote it. That means it is a pot-luck of some excellent informative articles and some inaccurate rubbish. Anyone can edit it if they think they have better information than the writer, or just if they want to alter the information given. What an opportunity to purvey false or misleading or biassed information! An encyclopedia to be used with caution indeed.
Julia 
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Sarc/uveitis/hypercalcaemia/ankle osteoarthritis/eczema. MP May04. 25D Apr09:5.6. Life is good! Julia's story
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Mon Oct 15th, 2007 01:33 |
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It is a good encyclopedia. I use it a lot to clarify things I already know a bit about. But even common knowledge can be distorted on wikipedia, as you can read in this article, where major UK newspapers published false material in an obituary because it was contained in a wikipedia bio
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/10/03/wikipedia_obituary_cut_and_paste/
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Mon Oct 15th, 2007 02:12 |
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Incidentally, sorry to wander off-topic so much.
Well, it's not really off-topic, as the things that have been said about my work by the wikipedia editors have hurt me badly, from time to time. And every trace of our achievements have been erased from the Sarcoidosis and Vitamin D pages, in each case by an autocratic editor, or 'socks' thereof...
Anyway, let's get focus back onto MP-biology-related issues
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Joyful
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| Joined: | Sat Jun 9th, 2007 |
| Location: | Restville, Again |
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Posted: Mon Oct 15th, 2007 09:39 |
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Dr. Marshall,
Your good-natured response to these injuries to getting out such a liberating message for the healing of the chronically ill is the greatest proof of all that this science works. That is, the changes you, yourself have gone through.
It would be natural to respond with anger in frustration at how the petty actions of others have prevented the truth from getting out there. But here we are. Experiencing the validity of your findings first hand. And no one has been able to silence the message!
We are imagining a future where doctors can offer help and hope to those who--up to this day--are belittled for their "weight problems" or "mental illness" as if they could somehow just decide to "be well" without treating these underlying infections!
I stand with you with great hope that the tide is in fact already turning and many brilliant minds will be applying their efforts to unraveling the mysteries within this new field of understanding.
Thank you for standing firm and pressing on in the face of critics, naysayers, and "socks."
~Joyful~
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Lyme?1980 Lyme/Babs/Bart?05 CFS?06 | Start 125D(50) 25D(32) Jun07 | Ph1Jul07 ModPh2Sep07 Ph2Feb08 Ph3Aug08 | Latest 25D(9) Apr09 | ABC of MP
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benk
Member in Phase 3
| Joined: | Fri Dec 22nd, 2006 |
| Location: | San Clemente, USA |
| Posts: | 76 |
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Posted: Thu Oct 18th, 2007 22:03 |
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It should be pointed out that Wikipedia's conception of "truth" was exposed by the TV comedian Steven Colbert early this year. (M-F, 8 and 11 PM Commedy Channel, Colbert show.) Colbert announced that he was deeply distressed that a certain animal species (elephants, I think) was at the verge of extintion in a certain part of Africa, per Wikipedia. He urged his audience to write to Wikipedia asserting that the population of elephants was increasing. He explained to the vieweres that at Wikipedia the truth was what "was generally accepted or believed," as reflected by popular vote. Weeks later, he proudly announced that now the Wikipedia had the elephant population booming, and that therefore he had "rescued a species from extintion."
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Lyme 125D77 Ph1Dec06 Avodart Cr picolinate vit B12 NoIRs low lux home fully covered if outdoors Ph3Feb07 25D8Mar08
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benk
Member in Phase 3
| Joined: | Fri Dec 22nd, 2006 |
| Location: | San Clemente, USA |
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Posted: Thu Oct 18th, 2007 22:05 |
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Correction to above: Sowtimes are 8:30 and 11:30 PM
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Lyme 125D77 Ph1Dec06 Avodart Cr picolinate vit B12 NoIRs low lux home fully covered if outdoors Ph3Feb07 25D8Mar08
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Stuart Greene
Member
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Posted: Fri Oct 19th, 2007 21:45 |
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In terms of obesity, I just came across an intersting paper which can be found at: http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/reprint/01-0584fjev1
"1α,25-Dihydroxyvitamin D3 modulates human adipocyte metabolism via nongenomic action"
It shows that suppression of renal 1α,25-Dihydroxyvitamin D3 leads to increased lipolysis, inhibited lipogenesis and reduced obesity (at least in mice). So here's another link in the chain connecting vitamin D receptor activity to metabolism and issues of weight and obesity.
It's really clear that VDR resarch is the biological "motherload" for many of the most pressing health challenges.
Concerning the Gordon video, it's wonderful stuff! I am fond of saying that the immune system really doesn't exist. It's not that we don't have an array of wonderful and amazing systems for innate and acquired protection, it's just that no living thing on Earth is truly immune from its neighbors. What we're all trying to do is maintain our biological integrity in the face of a world teeming with countless other living things that are trying to do the same.
In fact, this absence of "immunity" per se is one of the greatest non-Darwinian drivers of evolution - through the lateral transfer of genetic experience from one organism to another.
Part of this happens through the development of the types of comensal relationships described in this wonderful video...and part happens through the incorporation of independently evolved genetic experience into our own cells.
Most biologists, for example, now accept that our mitochondria are the devolved and streamlined remnants of the earliest oxygen breathing bacteria that appeared after the Earth's "oxygen catastrophe" about 1.6 billion years ago. Lynn Margulis and Dorian Sagan write wonderfully about this type of lateral genetic exchange. My own work hypothesizes that there is actually a third and even more subtle type of biological transfer of acquired experience in addition to comensal symbiosis and lateral genetic integration and it relates directly to the underlying stability of the interior mammalian ecosystem, including what takes place in the gut. I'll write more if anyone is interested.
I have a little more about this at http://immunecology.wordpress.com/2007/03/10/immunity-ecology-immunecology/ but I don't yet have a post up about ambimorphic pleomorphism and provolution - the really cool and interesting stuff I'm working on.
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Phase 1 | CFS/ME with neuro, severe inflam, chronic/recurrent viral & bacterial/pseudomonas infects. | July’07 25D = 18 ng/ml | Aug'07 1,25D = 39 pg/ml | 8/18/07 Benicar 40mg q8h | 8/20/27 Mino 100mg q2d
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tickbite
Member in Phase 2/3
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Posted: Sat Oct 20th, 2007 18:25 |
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| Nice little blog Stuart. By all means, expound!
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"Lyme","CFS", Meningitis
Phase3 8-2-07, MP on hold 11/2007
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Frans
Member in Phase 2
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Posted: Sat Oct 20th, 2007 20:10 |
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Stuart Greene wrote: "1α,25-Dihydroxyvitamin D3 modulates human adipocyte metabolism via nongenomic action"
... suppression of renal 1α,25-Dihydroxyvitamin D3 leads to ... and reduced obesity (at least in mice).
To summarize: higher 1,25D leads to obesity via non-genomic action ?
Perhaps this is not entirely true? If 1,25D is high enough to bind other receptors implicated in lipid metabolism (like the PPAR's), shutting them off, it still is genomic action I would think ?
Sincerely, Frans
PS Someone send them the DVD with Trevor's presentation at the FDA and point out the similarities in affinities for these particular receptors of 1,25D and prednisone?
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Burn-out/nervous breakdown Jan01 125D 48 25D8.48 Ph1Nov06 ModPh2Jan07 Ph2Apr08 Cipramil Seroquel NoIRs lite exp r/t work cover up 25D3.9(Oct07)
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Sat Oct 20th, 2007 21:45 |
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All the key actions of Vitamin D are genomic (i.e. due to transcription and transrepression of genes by the VDR). There are some non-genomic actions, but these researchers are not smart enough to have figured them out. Here is what I wrote about "non-genomic actions" in a recent paper I put together:Historically, Vitamin D has been associated solely with bone formation and calcemia, yet physicians are now being told that Vitamin D closely regulates genes associated with diseases ranging from cancers to multiple sclerosis. In reaction, some have seized upon a putative “non-genomic” activity of Vitamin-D, visualizing “non-genomic” vs. “genomic” actions, “physicians” vs. “biologists,” “practical” vs. “theoretical” - a subconscious rejection of molecular discovery...
The calcium flux itself is a function of proteins which are produced by VDR genomic actions. But heck, this is a 2001 paper, let's cut them a little slack for not being totally up-to-date with 2007 science
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NickBowler
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Sat Oct 27th, 2007 17:39 |
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Hi, I saw a cool colour chart recently that showed how obesity in the USA was not homogenously distributed, but rather much more prevalent in certain areas, with some real 'hotspots'. There is an Indian scientist who has been championing the idea of an 'obesity virus' for many years. Here is some links to the subject:
http://www.accessexcellence.org/WN/SUA09/obesity497.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6956543.stm
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Sarcoirodis CIDP, MP start 11/07, NoIRs, 02/08 25D-8, Ph3 since 07/08|
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Sat Oct 27th, 2007 18:00 |
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But UK experts said the idea of obesity as an infectious illness was unlikely
Sigh. So much for the insightful reporting of today's Beeb...
You might also like to review Reuters item this week:
http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSN2264401920071022
"An estimated two-thirds of Americans are overweight and a third of these are obese"
Let's see: 2/3 x 1/3 = ??? far too hard to work out... sigh... where's the calculator... 22%
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