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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 21:12 |
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than why when changing thier diet and excersing they are healthy again and all the High BP gone, High Choleterol Gone, Diabetes gone, thyroid problems gone
This is pure fiction, Shandy. The studies actually show that diet and exercise show no benefit in obesity or disease.
As you say, understanding medical journals is not for the uninitiated. It is so easy to get the incorrect impression from all those long words... Anyway, there is a section in our new paper which cites those lifestyle-intervention studies, and describes the pathogenesis in more detail. Coming soon to a computer near you...
See also Understanding Scientific Studies
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shandym
Member
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Posted: Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 21:23 |
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I will read that when it hits!! Thank you for the reply
I was just curious becaus Iam HUGE fan of the "biggest Loser" I dont know if you have ever watched it, but basically it is a show where very obese peolple go to a camp, Excerise llike CRAZY everyday and have MAJOR lifestlye changes'diet etc. Anyway, they Lose TONS of weight and are monitored through the whole process by doctors and they always at the beginning he show tell you what is going on in their obese bodies and it's never good, some have fatty liver, High BP, High choleterol, Diabetes ETC. and at the end of the show when they lose all the weight from hours of training and diet changes, all thier Ailments are tested and are presumed to be healed by this lifestyle change. They really do lose hundreds of pounds and go on to be "healthy".
Why is it then that these people lose So much weight just by excersice and diet change?
Shandy
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FM like Pain, disequalibrium,vertigo, constant dizziness, palpitations, tachycardia, visual disturbances,headpressure/headpain 125D29, 25D7, MP 11/07, TUMS, Valium, NoIRs, limited outings covered up
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 21:34 |
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I would have no idea what effect the crash dieting would have on disease. I can tell you that Mario Lanza died at age 38 in a weight-loss clinic, during a crash weight-loss attempt (a blood clot moved from his leg to his heart). Doctors were supervising that program, too...
It all comes down to what the doctors diagnose, and the metrics they use in that diagnosis. And Shandy, you have already accumulated plenty of experience with how effective the metrics used by your own physicians have been, haven't you?
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Freddie Ash
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 21:46 |
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HI SANDY & DR MARSHALL
This is Fred in WV. My 2 cents worth on this subject, but a study not too long ago came out about how exercised helped heart disease & diabetics. They took blood before they exercised and after they exercised and found that the inflammation was lower after they exercised. So by exercising lowers the inflammation and that in turn helps with all the TH1 diseases when we reduce the inflammation in our bodies. We have been told and even books written on how the inflammation kills us. Also they reduced the inflammation with the diet by not eating sugars and ect. Just my though on this type of thing.
Remember, we are all in this together and I am pulling for us.
Your friend in Sarcoidosis
Freddei
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Freddie: dx-sarc 2/82 lymph; skin, eyes, joints, esophagus, intestines, spleen, heart,lungs-meds digitek, L-thyroxine, nexium, furosemide, nattokinase36mg,eat cinnamon w/meals,25D-7; 125-D43
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 22:12 |
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Freddie, it is not so easy as measuring inflammation. You can suppress the inflammation by merely giving the people milk to drink as they are exercising. The Vitamin D in the milk is enough of a steroid to suppress the immune system.
When talking about chronic disease, like obesity and 'autoimmune' diseases, one cannot do a simple "before" and "after" measurement.
One also has to measure "after 1 week," "after 1 month," "after 1 year," after 1 decade," etc. The failure to do long-term follow-up is why the cause of these chronic diseases has eluded Medicine (up until now).
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Caitiegirl
Member in Phase 2
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Posted: Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 21:03 |
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| I think the new direction among some of the diet/exercise gurus is that too much exercise has been shown to increase inflammation. Perricone's new book describes this. Of course this is also the man who tells us to eat salmon for breakfast. Something I allowed my daughter to do because it was so highly touted by so many in the medical professsion. Looking back this was the beginning of so many of our problems. Add in a few (not even every day) vitamin supplements and we're having 5 or 6 seizures an hour. I can personally say that I am relieved to be off the diet/exercise guru merry-go-round. And as for the Biggest Loser- I think the way the show works is that if you don't lose weight you are eliminated from the competition. Kind of skews the data toward those with fewer health and inflammation issues. Just my opinion. Mindy
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Caitlin(18) lyme, seizures, myoclonus, dystonia, digestive, chronic headache, mental fog: 10/23/07 25D 36 1,25D 58, 1/12/09/5.7, 1/18/08 25D 9.9 Cut sun/D 9/26/07 Benicar 10/25/07, NoIRs 10/29/07
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shandym
Member
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Posted: Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 21:41 |
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Hi Mindy
I'm so sorry to hear of your daughters illness. She is very young to be going through such a tough time...I wish you and you family the best!
Dr. Marshall. I don't think while those patients were excersicing they were given milk, I think water would be more appropriate. But if milk was given...that is a pretty strange workout hydrator!
Hi Freddie! I have heard about that too, excerise being good for inflamation....who knows right!
As for the Biggest Loser and the people who get kicked off the show. Alot of times they are eliminated for losing TOO much weight and are voted off because of competitive reasons, also even if it were because they were not losing weight at the end of the show they do an update with the person who was voted off, and EVERY time they have lost the weight and are living a healthy lifestyle. I think there may have been one contestant that only lost about 60 lbs, but even that is a lot.
I just don't see how bacteria can be the cause of each situation. I see how sick and obese these contestants are when they start, and then for 3 months I watch them lose tons of weight and become healthy. It is actually very inspiring to watch. I think in some cases, some people just eat way too much, become inactive and "Gain Weight". The weight it seems is what starts the High Bp and other ailments and once the weight is off, those ailmenst do not exsist anymore.
I know in my case I have always been tiny.My highest weight before pregnancy was 135lbs, and my norm was 100 to 120. Around the time I became pregnant I started eating really badly and I gained about 15lbs. This was my highest at 135. When I became pregnant I gained 60 pounds and was very big. When I gave birth I lost 30 pounds IMMEDIATLEY. But, unfortunatley I became ill and was unable to excercise and gained it back. So I know if I was healthy after giving birth, I would have lost the weight and then some and kept it off just by eating a healthy diet and excersice. Thats what I always did and it kept me healthy until I became pregnant.
My dad never had high BP or diabetes until he gained a lot of weight. I see that in his case. My dad lost some weight and the BP went down with it. Then he gained it all back then some and here comes the High BP again. The diabetes has stayed because I guess on my dads side most have it.
Anyway, this is my non-scientific opinion.
Shandy
Last edited on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 21:42 by shandym
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FM like Pain, disequalibrium,vertigo, constant dizziness, palpitations, tachycardia, visual disturbances,headpressure/headpain 125D29, 25D7, MP 11/07, TUMS, Valium, NoIRs, limited outings covered up
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 23:18 |
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Shandy,
Anorexia Nervose is a Th1 disease. We have discussed that before (do a search of this forum, or the 2002-2004 SarcInfo forum). Indeed, one of my early papers discussed infertility in an Anorexic which we treated effectively (the infertility) with GnRH infusion in the early 1980s.
http://autoimmunityresearch.org/transcripts/Keogh_Ovulation_Induction.pdf
The Th1 pathogens both cause obesity, and they cause anorexia. In short, they make the body unable to find a healthy weight. That is exactly what I explained in my paper (which will be print-published late this month).
There is a lot more to human biology than one can observe with an untrained eye, or read about in the popular press, or on TV
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Freddie Ash
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Sun Jan 6th, 2008 04:16 |
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HI DR MARSHALL & SANDY
This is Fred in WV. I should have added to my above post about the ways of lowering the inflammation in our bodies. We must remember that these different ways that lowers the inflammation is only a bandaid for the problem, if we do not kill the bactiera that causes the inflammation it will only come back. That is what I tell people with these TH1 disease, like in my case we put in a pacemaker and had bypasses done but that was not the cause of the problem so they were only bandaids for the problems that I had. But with the Marshall Protocol it goes beond just the bandaid, it kills the bactiera that caused it in the first place. I tell people that is the difference in the Marshall Protocol and all the other things that they can have done.
Remember, we are all in this together and I am pulling for us.
Your friend in Sarcoidosis
Freddie
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Freddie: dx-sarc 2/82 lymph; skin, eyes, joints, esophagus, intestines, spleen, heart,lungs-meds digitek, L-thyroxine, nexium, furosemide, nattokinase36mg,eat cinnamon w/meals,25D-7; 125-D43
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vwitcher
Member in Phase 2/3
| Joined: | Thu Jan 18th, 2007 |
| Location: | Arkansas USA |
| Posts: | 47 |
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Posted: Sun Jan 6th, 2008 08:00 |
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Absolutely right, Freddie. It amazes me that every doctor I talk to speaks about inflammation as though it were a disease in itself, something to be removed.
In fact, it is only a symptom...it is our body's attempt to heal itself, just as a fever is. As I understand it, inflammation is actually our friend; but chronic inflammation (the result of ongoing and untreated disease) will eventually harm the body instead of healing it. Therefore, the object of the game is to heal the ongoing disease (fix the hole in the wall) instead of fooling the body into thinking there's no inflammation (painting over the hole in the wall); and the MP heals the disease instead of covering it up with steroids, etc. Am I correct?
"Question everything. Truth will prevail."
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5 yrs. very high BP,fatigue,headache,hrt palp, IBS,joint/muscle pain,muscle wasting,neuro sx,deaf one ear.Start D/light avoid 1/21/07.Start MP 2/23/07; Re-started 4/18/07. Mod Ph2 6/27/07; Ph3 7/25/07 q24h.NoIr's when outside.
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Jimbbb
Member
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Posted: Fri Jan 11th, 2008 00:42 |
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Vw,
About this quote from your reply:
instead of fooling the body into thinking there's no inflammation (painting over the hole in the wall);
I think a better analogy would be one of putting a pretty picture of a still life bowl of fruit over the hole in the wall. 
(is a lot easier than fixing the hole so that's why people do it (palliation instead of fix the problem).
____________________
Interested (healthy) bystander with distant cousin who has Chronic Lyme.
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vwitcher
Member in Phase 2/3
| Joined: | Thu Jan 18th, 2007 |
| Location: | Arkansas USA |
| Posts: | 47 |
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Posted: Sat Jan 12th, 2008 02:23 |
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| Absolutely right, Jim. We've all done it, haven't we (in our home AND in our body).
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5 yrs. very high BP,fatigue,headache,hrt palp, IBS,joint/muscle pain,muscle wasting,neuro sx,deaf one ear.Start D/light avoid 1/21/07.Start MP 2/23/07; Re-started 4/18/07. Mod Ph2 6/27/07; Ph3 7/25/07 q24h.NoIr's when outside.
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NickBowler
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Tue Apr 29th, 2008 13:06 |
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http://www.newscientist.com/channel/health/dn13789-blood-pressure-drug-could-help-you-slim.html?feedId=online-news_rss20
Here it is in black and white!
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Sarcoirodis CIDP, MP start 11/07, NoIRs, 02/08 25D-8, Ph3 since 07/08|
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Martin78
Member in Phase 1
| Joined: | Sun Jul 15th, 2007 |
| Location: | Oslo, Norway |
| Posts: | 194 |
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Offline
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Posted: Tue Apr 29th, 2008 19:00 |
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Hi Nick
I am confused; are you refering to Benicar?
I thought benicar was an ARB blocker, not an ACE inhabitor... What am I missing?
Thanks
BR
Martin
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Sjøgrens Syndrome|Fatigue|wt loss|itch|night sweats|pain|ancle|legs|ches|irritat|depr| hypercalcemia|initial 125D 98|Probe Apr08|Valium| 25D30 Jan15.09|Ph1 Jan15.09|visit my site: http://www.youngsjogrens.com
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NickBowler
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Tue Apr 29th, 2008 19:24 |
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Martin,
By inference only. The purpose of both ACE inhibitors and Angiotensin receptor blockers like Benicar are to limit the effects of Angiotensin II on blood pressure. What is unexpected until this report anyway is that there would be an effect on fat metabolism also.
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Sarcoirodis CIDP, MP start 11/07, NoIRs, 02/08 25D-8, Ph3 since 07/08|
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Tue Apr 29th, 2008 19:28 |
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Martin/Nick:
Here is the study to look at:
"Suppression of PPAR transactivation switches cell fate of bone marrow stem cells from adipocytes into osteoblasts"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17656564
So. Based on inflmmatory cytokines, or one of the Nuclear Receptors hit by both the statins and the ARBs, stem cells either strengthen bone, or add to fat. Hmm... I think that is pretty profound, somehow....
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Martin78
Member in Phase 1
| Joined: | Sun Jul 15th, 2007 |
| Location: | Oslo, Norway |
| Posts: | 194 |
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Posted: Tue Apr 29th, 2008 19:53 |
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Hmmm
After reading the abstract I recognize the PPAR Gamma from the BIO21 presentation, but think I will stick to my macro economics for the time being. Maybee later this summer (when my examn period is over) I'll try to get up to a level of understanding that I can actually participate in these discussions... but for now I think my mind is content 
But thanks for answering the both of you.
BR
Martin
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Sjøgrens Syndrome|Fatigue|wt loss|itch|night sweats|pain|ancle|legs|ches|irritat|depr| hypercalcemia|initial 125D 98|Probe Apr08|Valium| 25D30 Jan15.09|Ph1 Jan15.09|visit my site: http://www.youngsjogrens.com
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Ruth Goold
Health Professional
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Posted: Tue Apr 29th, 2008 23:15 |
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More info on these pathways and lipid metabolism (at least in mice) in an on-line publication in PNAS:
Mice lacking angiotensin-converting enzyme have increased energy expenditure, with reduced fat mass and improved glucose clearance.
by: Jayasooriya et al.
Abstract available at: http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/0802690105v1
Ruth
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03/02/07 Ph 1 MP; 2001: Pulmonary sarc; 01/04/07: 125 D=110pmol/L(45.8 pg/ml)| 25D=20.8 ng/ml: 04/07 19.2: 07/07 11?: 09/07 16.5: 11/07 <10.0: 01/08 <10.0: 05/08 10 ng/ml. Ca. Elocom (ears). diphenhydramine 25 mg. Adidas EE glasses outside. NoIRs
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tickbite
Member in Phase 2/3
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Posted: Wed Apr 30th, 2008 18:19 |
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Ruth,
I'm wondering if you might perhaps brainstorm why my metabolism is so high. I can eat like a horse for weeks straight and not gain an ounce. If I don't eat however, I tend to lose weight. I'm 6'2" and ~155 lbs dry.
thanks! 
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"Lyme","CFS", Meningitis
Phase3 8-2-07, MP on hold 11/2007
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Ames
Board Staff
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Posted: Wed Apr 30th, 2008 20:10 |
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Hi Greg,
I am also very thin. I wrote a Newsflash on Bacteriality that goes into greater detail about the paper Dr. Marshall just introduced a few posts above this one. The paper offers the best explanation I have yet heard about why some of us lose weight when we get infected with the Th1 pathogens.
Here's the link:
http://bacteriality.com/news/#cyto
Best,
Amy
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CFS/FMS/osteopenia/severe insomnia Non -MP meds: Gabitril (16 mg),Trazodone (150 mg),Tramadol (20 mg) for pain. Light: Noirs (outside and bright lights), thick layers, sunscreen
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