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healingjason
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Sat Oct 10th, 2009 04:14 |
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Hogan wrote: John,
...We treated her with the antibiotics (Amoxicillin). At first her symptoms got much worse. ...As her mother I know differently and know that the bacteria probably just switched to l form.
...Below is an excerpt Grace wrote for a friend of mine who treats Autistic children with PANDAS.
The main things that I was doing were:
1. Licking poles- because I had to know what everything tasted, felt like and looked like.
2. The beach was difficult for me because there was so much going on there. The sand was my biggest problem because it is rough but smooth and tiny and it’s everywhere.
3. I felt like a message was coming from my brain telling me and urging me to touch or lick things and I didn’t notice it. I just had no control over myself and my actions. It seemed completely normal to me. Most times I tried to be normal and myself but when there were things that had a lot of texture and colors I had know what they felt like and tasted like etc. ...Even when I was sick and they were trying to figure out what was going on I was still aware of my surroundings and what people were saying, what was going on, everything you are aware of I was aware of too.
Thanks Karen for these insights.
My Jason likes (this is understating it, he seems compelled) to taste, lick and touch things as a way of literally 'coming to grips' with the world around him. I have thought about it as dog-like in that he is trying to understand the things around him by using the simple tools or senses he has available to him. Without language I think he needs to more directly 'feel' the world and the things in it.
Some would call Jason's abnormal need to taste, touch and feels things as symptomatic of a condition called 'sensory integration dysfunction' which I have touched on from time to time on the AUTISM thread.
I have never had Jason tested for PANDAS strep and I will explore this a bit further in case it is this that is driving his autism. It would be great if you could elaborate on how many ASD children you know of who have PANDAS and whether their medicos consider it is the PANDAS strep that is driving their ASD?
I would expect most MPers would see strep throat as a co-infection and that L-form pathogens are causal for most cases of ASD. Also, I understand amoxicillin to be contraindicated for treating ASD as this would cause more bacteria to change into more virulent l-forms.
Indeed, perhaps wrongly, I have understood penicillin therapy for an ear infection to have precipitated my son's rapid descent into autism when he was unwittingly over-prescribed amoxicillin at just 20 months of age. I would be reluctant to commence a course of amoxicillin before I have exhausted the potential for the MP to work for Jason. I think it more likely that his pathogenic metagenomic microbiota are not the streptococci that cause PANDAS but are other microorganisms which, one day, may be shown to cause ASD and to be treatable with the MP which does not include using penicillin.
However, I have an open mind and if I feel I have tried the MP for long enough then I would need to consider whether PANDAS strep might be relevant. I am therefore very interested if you can enlighten us all on how many PANDAS sufferers have ASD and which comes first.
I have this understanding, correct me if I am wrong, that most cases of PANDAS occur in children at ages greater than when most toddlers regress into autism before age 3 years. In other words, some other pathogens have got to them first before strep throat arrives on the scene. I note your daughter caught her strep throat at an age much older than when most children are diagnosed with ASD.
John
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Dad of Jason, 12 yrs autistic boy. Chronic intra-cellular infection evident from abnormal urinary amino acids, as found by the Uni of Newcastle, Australia. Benicar 40 mg QW8H from 7 Apr 07. Phase 3 from 28 June 08. Covered up, sunscreen. 25D 10 (08/09).
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Hogan
Member in Phase 3
| Joined: | Sun Mar 16th, 2008 |
| Location: | Pennsylvania USA |
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Posted: Sat Oct 10th, 2009 05:52 |
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It would be great if you could elaborate on how many ASD children you know of who have PANDAS and whether their medicos consider it is the PANDAS strep that is driving their ASD?
John,
I am not sure out of her practice how many of the children she treats have both conditions. There seems to be quite a few because she is always calling me to send her a new copy of the letter. From speaking with her I get the feeling most of her PANDAS Autistic kids were exposed to Beta strep during birth. She does not believe that Strep causes Autism but does believe that Vit D has a lot to do with it. I will say that many of her autistic kids struggle with all varieties of strep as well as other pathogens and she believes they are coinfections.
She has been treating autistic kids for about 15 years with a very unique approach which I won't elaborate here partly because it is too hard to explain and sounds too science fiction and this is not the place to discuss. However, although she could always improve the kids she could never cure them. After we met and I started researching the MP I was convinced it was the missing link for her and her autistic kids. She recently told me of a story of two identical twins she is treating one which is severely autistic and one who is only mildly ADHD but otherwise appears normal. They are teenagers now and their case was always a mystery to her. The child with severe autism has normal loads of heavy metals in his system and the one who is only mildly ADHD has severe loads. It always confused her why the one with lower loads was the autistic one and the other was not as most of the time she saw a high correlation with heavy metals and autisim. After our discussion she had the mother of the twins test the boys d levels. The boy with the high heavy metals but only mild ADHD had what is considered a more normal D125 value but the autistic boy had a very high D125 value. To her this was the misslng link she had been looking for. So I believe the MP is the right course for you to take for Jason. Time will tell if there is other issues involved with ASD but at least my friend is convinced that the VDR and vitamin D are a huge part of the equation.
Regarding Grace's case and PANDAS. She started getting strep at about one year of age. Her PANDAS didn't get diagnosed until 7 but there were signs all along I just didn't know what I was looking at. We only treated her with amoxicillian because at the time it appeared to be the cure and is the recommended choice for strep. It may have just caused the bacteria to change form but I don't care because at least it gave her back to me and at that point I had no other choice. Either way she will be cured with the MP in the next few years but we are taking one child at a time.
If you want to PM me I can give you more information on my friend and her unique approach for dealing with ASD.
Karen
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CFS and FM diagnosed 1990, bad relapse after florquinoline 2007. Chronic lung congestion and infections, Dec 2007, 1,25D=69 25D=26, June 08 D25 18.2., Sep 08 d1,25 = 24, 25D = 17, 04/09, 25D = 14, 06/09 11, 09/09 9 (ZRT) and 14 quest, 10/09 8
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healingjason
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Mon Oct 12th, 2009 04:02 |
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Hogan wrote:
Regarding Grace's case and PANDAS. She started getting strep at about one year of age. Her PANDAS didn't get diagnosed until 7 but there were signs all along I just didn't know what I was looking at. We only treated her with amoxicilin because at the time it appeared to be the cure and is the recommended choice for strep. It may have just caused the bacteria to change form but I don't care because at least it gave her back to me and at that point I had no other choice. Either way she will be cured with the MP in the next few years but we are taking one child at a time.
Our discussion got me thinking about the concept of a PANDAS disease state.
I gather we MPers do not believe in the idea of ‘auto immune’ disease in the sense of an overactive immune system body mistakenly destroying heath cells manifesting in disease symptoms like those observed in PANDAS sufferers. I think the idea behind the PANDAS disease concept is that an excessive immune response in some children to strep throat bacteria somehow causes the immune system to target healthy brain cells when the strep bugs are present.
I presume we MPers would we see the PANDAS disease symptoms as being caused by pathogens living in brain cells and by an immune system struggling to destroy these pathogens because of VDR incompetence. PANDAS is just another Th1 inflammatory disease with a pathogenesis that has nothing to do with an ‘auto immune’ response to certain species of streptococci and that the best way to overcome such a disease state would be to treat it with the MP which I gather is now happening for Grace.
I find it puzzling that amoxicillin can cause PANDAS symptoms to subside as such a treatment protocol would be seemingly contradicted according to MP principles and would be more likely to lead to the development of more pathogenic L-forms and a more profound disease state. I do not know how amoxicillin is given and for how long. I gather it is given to ‘calm down’ the immune system which starts to go awry when strep throat symptoms are present and that it is given from time to time when PANDAS symptoms emerge in association with a sore throat. Perhaps the MP would lead to the permanent elimination of PANDAS symptoms and there would be no need for amoxicillin to be given to treat later episodes which might the risk the causation of more profound neurological symptoms as bacteria develop into L-forms.
Seems like the amoxicillin worked well for Grace.
Moderators might like to transfer this discussion to another thread or a new thread dealing with PANDAS.
I will PM you Karen on the heavy metals stuff as soon as I can
John
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Dad of Jason, 12 yrs autistic boy. Chronic intra-cellular infection evident from abnormal urinary amino acids, as found by the Uni of Newcastle, Australia. Benicar 40 mg QW8H from 7 Apr 07. Phase 3 from 28 June 08. Covered up, sunscreen. 25D 10 (08/09).
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Mon Oct 12th, 2009 04:13 |
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Many antibiotics suppress the innate immune system. When used in a human being. they behave quite differently from in a petrie dish. Some are routinely used as immune suppressants in chronic disease, Rocephin, Amoxycillin, Minocyline are all in that category. Mino is only effective for us because of the sub-inhibitory dosing we use in the MP.
As for autoantibodies, they result from an overactive adaptive immune system. When the bacteria get inside the phagocytes there is a cytokine release signaling to B cells (and T cells) that something is wrong. The plethora of antibodies which are subsequently generated include some that attack human proteins, as well as target pathogens.
At the Autoimmunity conference in Singapore a number of autoantibodies were identified that are known to be primarily targeted at specific pathogens. There is just a little "collateral damage" 
Just about all antibodies are "polyspecific" - they attack more than one target. Indeed, it is very difficult for drug companies to make monoclonal antibodies which target only a few (hopefully only one) target. Amy's presentation in Beijing discussed this issue in some detail:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGe9UTQJdHM
I hope that helps
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TikBitten
Member in Phase 3
| Joined: | Thu Mar 13th, 2008 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 62 |
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Posted: Mon Oct 12th, 2009 06:47 |
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Hello all-
About 6-8 weeks ago a link was posted in one of our discussion groups on the topic of childhood ear infections. Specifically, a European doctor that resorted to using syringes of "good" bacteria to combat the biofilming "bad" bacteria by injecting them into the outer ear of his patients. The net of it was the children he treated resolved and returned to general states of being happy and healthy.
CAN'T seem to find it, anyone know where this link is hiding out on the MP website?
Thanks much,
TB
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Neurborreliosis 8/05|25SecD=46 1,25SecD=62 10/07|Avoid Sun & 25SecD since 10/07|Started NoIRs 3/08|25SecD=18 3/08|Ph1 3/08|25SecD=17 6/08|ModPh2 6/08|Ph2 9/08|Stopped NoIRs Fall 08|Ph3 1/09|25SecD=13 3/09|25SecD=10 5/09|25SecD=11 7/09|25SecD=15 9/09
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terrylmcc
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Mon Oct 12th, 2009 21:11 |
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HI all,
Was watching Dr OZ today. He had 3 morbidly obese women on his show. And took them all over to what he calls the "Truth Tube". all 3 weighed between 260 and 300 lbs. The comment that got me today was when he was explaining that all 3 of them have low vitamin D. He said that fat stores vitamin D. And steals the vitamin D from our body. I was floored. Anyone on the MP here would know the real reason. But now he's telling them all they need more vitamin D. Ugh
Maybe it will be on Youtube somewhere? Best Terry
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Sarcoidosis/lung &cutanious biopsy. uveitis Ph1,Jan07 ModPh2,Apr07 Ph2, Dec07 Ph3,Feb08 NoIRs avoid lite exposure, 25 D 6/08 = 5, 25D 3-09 4.
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thelymelight
Member in Phase 1
| Joined: | Fri Nov 4th, 2005 |
| Location: | Ontario Canada |
| Posts: | 192 |
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Posted: Sat Oct 17th, 2009 20:46 |
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Here is an article that appeared in the October issue of the Toronto area health magazine called "Vitality"
Dr. Zolton Rona (who is actually a very reputable complimentary M.D. in Toronto) discusses alternatives you can take in place of the flu & H1N1 vaccines. Interestingly, he & others recommend high doses of Vitamin D, which they state is a natural antibiotic, that works against every type of microbe (viruses, bacteria, fungi and parasites).
Here is the article in full: http://www.vitalitymagazine.com/oct09_pg32feat
I always get confused when I read articles about the many benefits of taking Vitamin D…This is what I would like to know: “Is what these experts and Endocrinologists stipulate and recommend about Vitamin D “accurate” for individuals who don’t have a TH1 inflammatory conditions…but not accurate for those of us with Th1 diseases?
and "If Endocrinologists whose specialize in bones etc, suggest Vitamin D is so good for us for reversing different diseases….How come they don’t know about or agree with Dr. Marshall's work which states the opposite?"
"Surely if Endocrinologists such as Dr. Veith in Toronto, who recommend Vitamin D for reversing all sorts of disorders, they must have (or there must be out there) research or studies that show or prove, taking Vitamin D is good for certain people?"
So I don’t understand how there can be such opposite opinions on this subject…..Can anyone explain this to me?
Here are some quotes from the article:
On the other hand, vitamin D appears to be far more important. Vitamin D has strong antibiotic properties and some studies indicate that optimal blood levels will prevent the flu far better than those toxic flu shots.
Ever wonder why some people are more prone to colds and flus? One study indicates that the incidence of upper respiratory tract infections is inversely correlated with vitamin D blood levels. The lower the vitamin D blood level, the higher the likelihood of infection. This confirms an observation that I have made on numerous occasions with my private practice patients. Each year I see the infection rates rise during the winter as vitamin D levels plummet, and each summer the exact opposite occurs.
I have definitely found that those of my patients who have 25 (OH) vitamin D levels of 175 nmol/L or higher get few, if any, colds or flus during the winter. I have also found that I need to bump up the supplement recommendations to 10,000 IU of vitamin D3 per day in both the winter and summer to achieve such levels in the majority of the people that supplement with vitamin D.
HIGH DOSE VITAMIN D THERAPY
You might be shocked to know that there are many physicians in both Canada and the United States who prescribe as much as 50,000 IU of vitamin D daily as a treatment for a long list of chronic diseases.
I first learned about high dose vitamin D therapy from one of Dr. Norm Shealy’s newsletters (http://www.normshealy.com). Dr. Shealy is the author of several books and the founder of the American Holistic Medical Association.
As Dr. Shealy relates, “Recently I had the good fortune to spend a couple of hours with Dr. Joe Prendergast, an endocrinologist / diabetologist (http://www.uncommondoctor.com; http://www.endocrinemetabolic.com). He has managed over 1500 diabetic patients, and in the last decade not one of his patients has had a stroke or heart attack. Only one has even been hospitalized! His secret – 50,000 units of Vitamin D3 daily. Dr. Joe further reports:
· Reversal of advanced coronary disease
• Reversal of advanced lung disease, avoiding a lung transplant
• Cure of multiple sclerosis
• Cure of amyotrophic lateral sclerosis
• Regression of rheumatoid arthritis
• Improvement in allergies
• Control of many cancers including prostate, breast, colon, brain
tumours, leukemia, myeloma, etc
• Reversal of osteoporosis
• Prevention of influenza
• Cure of depression and many other mental disorders
• Cure of Hashimoto’s Thyroiditis
Dr. John Cannell, head of the Vitamin D Council, recommends such high doses for quickly getting rid of a cold or flu, but has not advocated such high doses for regular daily use. One of the problems with taking such high doses of vitamin D is the effect it may have on calcium, namely the deposition of calcium in the arteries and organs. Apparently, this is not such a problem if you aren’t also taking high calcium doses as a supplement. In any event, if any reader decides to do this, make sure that blood tests are done every three months to check calcium levels. One thing you don’t want is kidney stones or hardening of the arteries.
Dr. John Cannell, MD, suggests high-dose vitamin D (50,000 IU) be consumed for three days at the first sign of a cold or the flu. If you have an infection, the truth is you need more vitamin D. That’s a given. In other words, vitamin D acts as a natural antibiotic. It works against every type of microbe (viruses, bacteria, fungi and parasites).
Vitamin D deficiency is common during the winter months, especially in countries far north of the equator. Vitamin D acts as an immune system modulator, preventing excessive production of inflammatory cytokines and increasing macrophage (a type of white cell) activity. Vitamin D also stimulates the production of potent anti-microbial peptides in other white blood cells and in epithelial cells lining the respiratory tract, protecting the lungs from infection.
Vitamin D is not a vitamin, but a steroid hormone precursor, which has profound effects on innate immunity.
- The only blood test to determine vitamin D adequacy is a 25-hydroxy-vitamin D, not the 1,25-di-hydroxy-vitamin D test many physicians now order.
- The mechanism of action of vitamin D in infection, dramatically increasing the body’s production of broad-spectrum natural antibiotics (anti-microbial peptides or AMP), suggests pharmaceutical doses of vitamin D (1,000 IU per pound of body weight per day for several days) will effectively treat not only influenza and the common cold, but help treat a host of other seasonal infections, including meningitis, septicemia, and pneumonia, in both children and adults.
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Lyme, Babesia,19+ yrs, neuro-psych-cogni|Sept08-125D/30.42; 25D/8.40; Feb09/10.40; Jul09/5.60 Feb08~Olmesartan, Feb09~Ph1. Low lux-some areas of home. MEDS: Cipralex 10mg, weaned Hydrocortisone. Cal/Mag 150mg each.
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ChrisMavo
Member in Phase 2
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Posted: Sat Oct 17th, 2009 21:15 |
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Dear lymelight,
I just read your post.. and I too have been confused by such arguments for the benefits of vitamin D! It seems there is not a day that does not go by where I do not see an article or some Dr on a show touting it's myriad benefits. And many of my family and friends think I am nuts to LOWER my vitamin D levels on the MP. And it HAS given me pause to consider whether they could be correct ...
BUT.. then I realize that for YEARS I took at least 6,000 IU"s of vitamin D every day... and large doses of pharmaceutical grade Omega-3 fish oil ... along with high doses of all kinds of so-called healthy supplements (vit C, minerals, CoQ10, etc.)! And after all that ... I STILL GOT ALS! So when I read Dr Marshall's alternative theory of how too much vitamin 25D actually suppresses the bodies innate immune system... I was convinced he was correct the more I studied it!
I would guess that some of the claims of vitamin D "preventing" someone from catching the flu or a cold, is actually just the suppression of that person's immune response to the infection. They do not get the typical symptoms of the cold/flu.. but the infection is still there.... probably transforming into L-form, or cell wall deficient bacteria to make them sick years later, as they pop their vitamin D capsules!
It is hard for most people to accept the fact that so many alleged EXPERTS can be so wrong. But, if they were right, how could I have gotten ALS while taking high doses of vitamin D like the "experts" advised me? And, furthermore, how is the MP having such fantastic clinical results these past years by LOWERING vitamin D levels! I think the verdict is in on Dr Marshall's breakthrough discovery.. vitamin D suppresses the immune system... but does NOT prevent infections!
I'll leave the scientific explanations to Dr Marshall and others on here that are infinitely more qualified than I. But, I just had to write my 2 cents worth ... especially when I read that one of the doctors you quoted claimed that high dosage vitamin D cures ALS... what a sick joke for those of us with ALS!
Chris Mavo
San Francisco
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PLS/ALS, speech difficulty, dizziness, leg weakness, overly emotional, Ph1Aug2609, 11/09: 25D-20, 9/09: 25D-27, 7/09: 25D-38, 1,25D-46, Mod Ph2Oct09, 100mg Mino + 150mg Clindy
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Sat Oct 17th, 2009 21:55 |
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Amy and Paul have written an article on Bacteriality which might be helpful in understanding why so many people could make such a terrible error. You can find it at:
http://bacteriality.com/2009/08/10/iom/
Paul and Amy gave testimony before the Institute of Medicine, National Academy of Sciences in Washington. And none of the 'experts' were able to laugh them out of the room. That's a sobering thought, isn't it
Enjoy!
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thelymelight
Member in Phase 1
| Joined: | Fri Nov 4th, 2005 |
| Location: | Ontario Canada |
| Posts: | 192 |
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Posted: Sun Oct 18th, 2009 00:36 |
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Thanks Chris and Dr. Marshall for your replies..
I will read the link you provided.
Cheers
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Lyme, Babesia,19+ yrs, neuro-psych-cogni|Sept08-125D/30.42; 25D/8.40; Feb09/10.40; Jul09/5.60 Feb08~Olmesartan, Feb09~Ph1. Low lux-some areas of home. MEDS: Cipralex 10mg, weaned Hydrocortisone. Cal/Mag 150mg each.
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jcwat101
Research Professional
| Joined: | Tue Jul 20th, 2004 |
| Location: | Pasadena, USA |
| Posts: | 1453 |
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Posted: Sun Oct 18th, 2009 18:05 |
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This article goes into some of the studies, including the evidence on flus and colds:
http://www.townsendletter.com/Jan2009/vitaminD0109.htm
Joyce Waterhouse
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20 yrs with CFS/FM/Lyme/IBS, food sensitivities; 1,25D/25D 8/04:64/11 http://SynergyHN.com
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Sun Oct 18th, 2009 18:21 |
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Joyce,
Sorry I missed that excellent Townsend article. I have added it to my master URL list
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Rajabesar
Health Professional
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Posted: Wed Oct 21st, 2009 16:16 |
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Hmmmm.
Dr Marshall's master URL list!
Is that posted anywhere?
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Experience is what you get right after you needed it.
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Wed Oct 21st, 2009 16:44 |
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Most papers and presentations are listed at:
http://TrevorMarshall.com/papers.htm
Here is a list of URLS alone:
Recent Papers:
http://autoimmunityResearch.org/preprints/BlaneyAnnals2009Preprint.pdf
http://autoimmunityResearch.org/preprints/ProalAnnals2009Preprint.pdf
http://autoimmunityResearch.org/preprints/WaterhouseAnnals2009Preprint.pdf
http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/preprints/AR-Proal-Metagenome.pdf
http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/preprints/AR-Albert-VitD.pdf
http://www.townsendletter.com/Jan2009/vitaminD0109.htm
http://TrevorMarshall.com/BioEssays-Feb08-Marshall-Preprint.pdf
http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/preprints/BioEssays-May08-Response-preprint.pdf
http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/preprints/BioEssays-May08-letters.pdf
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673606695093/fulltext
http://www.tbiomed.com/content/3/1/1
Recent Transcripts:
http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/transcripts/CMBF_2009_Dalian_Transcript.pdf
http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/transcripts/Prague_2009_MP_Transcript.pdf
http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/transcripts/Prague_2009_Science_Transcript.pdf
http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/transcripts/WCG2008_Keynote_Transcript.pdf
http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/transcripts/WCH_2008_seminar_transcript.pdf
http://autoimmunityResearch.org/transcripts/ICA2008_Transcript_TrevorMarshall.pdf
http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/transcripts/ICA2008_Transcript_TomPerez.pdf
http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/transcripts/ICA2008_Transcript_AmyProal.pdf
http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/transcripts/ICA2008_Transcript_GregBlaney.pdf
http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/transcripts/metagenomics2007.pdf
http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/transcripts/dmm2007-harvard.pdf
http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/transcripts/dmm2006-karolinska.pdf
http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/transcripts/marshall_aaem_2006.pdf
http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/transcripts/marshall_bio21_2006.pdf
http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/transcripts/recovery_lax2006.pdf
http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/transcripts/waterhouse_lax2006.pdf
http://www.autoimmunityresearch.org/transcripts/arasaki_jssog_2006.pdf
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Mon Oct 26th, 2009 19:50 |
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New study out, apparently:
"1 in 5 kids get little vitamin D, study says"
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hyaIB59PGCPPIn68oExCukmgPLPAD9BIIQN83
Sigh...
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Ron
Member in Phase 2
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Posted: Sun Nov 8th, 2009 00:23 |
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The Standing Committee of European Doctors (CPME) said vitamin D deficiency was a “huge problem” that affected 50 per cent of Europeans, and so fortification measures were necessary.
http://www.nutraingredients.com/Regulation/EU-doctors-back-elderly-vitamin-D-fortification/
This is the result of the work by Roger Bouillon and Paul Lips in Bruges.
The actual European Policy Document is here:
http://cpme.dyndns.org:591/adopted/2009/CPME_AD_Brd_241009_179_final_EN.pdf
Last edited on Sun Nov 8th, 2009 00:24 by Ron
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Dad with RA, MP 01/08| 25D 16.8| Apr08 25D-7.1 Sep08 11.6 Mar09 7.6 Jul09 17| oxycodon, NoIRs, limited outings covered up
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