The Marshall Protocol Study Site > PROF. MARSHALL'S PERSPECTIVE > Prof. Marshall's Perspective > MP in the news - Vitamin D debate continues
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The Marshall Protocol Study Site > PROF. MARSHALL'S PERSPECTIVE > Prof. Marshall's Perspective > MP in the news - Vitamin D debate continues |
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Rico Moderator
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Stephen Strauss' (CBC News) latest Vitamin D article (Vitamin D: Not a simple case of cause and effect) mentioning the MP. A refresher regarding Dr Marshall's science. And the science according to Dr John White of McGill U (he's mentioned in the article). Results from Dr Marshall's science: http://MarshallProtocol.com/MP_results_chart.jpg http://bacteriality.com/category/interview-patient/ http://www.carouselcharts.com/TranscriptRecoveryLAX2.pdf http://winmlm.neostrada.pl/mp/townsend/Townsend_Letter_May2007.Part2.pdf http://tinyurl.com/2pm37t Results from Dr White's science: ???? Other Strauss Vitamin D articles: Vitamin D and diabetes: An over-simplified solution to a complex problem The Vitamin D Debate |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team 
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Actually, John White's group was responsible for the (very important) exploration of the 913 genes transcribed by the VDR. However, I suspect that project might have been the initiative of his staff member, TT Wang, the lead author, rather than John himself. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16002434 John has never tried to contact me by email or phone, and the (few) phone calls I left on his answering machine during 2006/2007 were not answered. John was one of the peer reviewers selected to review my Bioessay, and he recommended that it not be published. His peer review failed to declare that he was personally taking 10 times the RDA of Vitamin D, a fact which may have brought his objectivity as a peer reviewer into question  |
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kenc Member in Phase 3 
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The CBC article seems short on details. I'm curious about the nature of the disagreement between Dr. White's view and Dr. Marshall's view. Reading Dr. White's article in Scientific American I can see he is well aware of the importance of the VDR to immunity. So we have agreement here. Is this just a disaggreement over VDR and agonists and antagonists? Last edited on Mon Nov 3rd, 2008 10:12 by kenc |
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Markt9452 Member in Phase 3
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Here is Mr. Whites model from http://www.medicine.mcgill.ca/physio/whitelab/research.htm I looked at his paper "Vitamin D signaling and regulation of innate immunity" and it's a pretty tough read. One thing I did notice though is that there seems to be lot's of information about mice VDR's used as references. Last edited on Mon Nov 3rd, 2008 11:39 by Markt9452 |
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kenc Member in Phase 3
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Dr. White coauthored this interesting article in Scientific American on vitamin D. It supports Dr. Marshall's emphasis on the importance of the VDR for immunity and describes many of the benefits of VDR activation. However in the latter part of the article it advocates activating the VDR through vitamin D intake (diet and sunshine). Now I can see why Dr. White would be hostile to Dr. Marshall's work. After contributing this article extolling the virtues of increasing vitamin D intake to a widely circulated magazine, the thought of having to refute his own advice would blind him to the possibility that Dr. Marshall could be right. I expect him to either ignore Dr. Marshall's work or look for evidence to refute it. If it's the latter he may end up having to accept the work or perhaps even become an advocate. Although scientists are supposed to be objective they are still only human. They have egos. |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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One of the hazards of thinking about the VDR in mice is that it is not found in as many tissues. Hence John's focus on the skin and liver, I think. I found the same error when I was speaking with Ron Evans at Salk, he showed me this huge chart of tissue distribution, and then had to admit it was in a mouse, and then had to admit that macrophages and monocytes traffic all tissues throughout the body. I didn't manage to change Ron's mind though. I suspect John White is the same, and is further in denial because of the palliation he feels when taking 4000 IU a day Write to Stephen Strauss (by email, not by comments) and let him know your thoughts... |
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kenc Member in Phase 3
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I couldn't find Strauss' email address anywhere. Does anyone know what it is? |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Ken, look at: http://www.geocities.com/stephenstrauss@rogers.com/index.html |
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edj2001 Moderator 
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Paper title: Respiratory Epithelial Cells Convert Inactive Vitamin D to Its Active Form: Potential Effects on Host Defense http://www.jimmunol.org/cgi/content/abstract/181/10/7090 abstract: "The role of vitamin D in innate immunity is increasingly recognized. Recent work has identified a number of tissues that express the enzyme 1  -hydroxylase and are able to activate vitamin D. This locally produced vitamin D is believed to have important immunomodulatory effects.In this paper, we show that primary lung epithelial cells express high baseline levels of activating 1 -hydroxylase and low levels of inactivating 24-hydroxylase. The result of this enzyme expression is that airway epithelial cells constitutively convert inactive 25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 to the active 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3.Active vitamin D that is generated by lung epithelium leads to increased expression of vitamin D-regulated genes with important innate immune functions. These include the cathelicidin antimicrobial peptide gene and the TLR coreceptor CD14. dsRNA increases the expression of 1 -hydroxylase, augments the production of active vitamin D, and synergizes with vitamin D to increase expression of cathelicidin.In contrast to induction of the antimicrobial peptide, vitamin D attenuates dsRNA-induced expression of the NF-  B-driven gene IL-8. We conclude that primary epithelial cells generate active vitamin D, which then influences the expression of vitamin D-driven genes that play a major role in host defense. Furthermore, the presence of vitamin D alters induction of antimicrobial peptides and inflammatory cytokines in response to viruses. These observations suggest a novel mechanism by which local conversion of inactive to active vitamin D alters immune function in the lung." |
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kenc Member in Phase 3
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"And it is also fair to say that much of the conventional scientific community thinks Marshall's science — what he personally does is generate computer simulations of how cells and proteins might interact — is somewhere between plain wrong and awfully loony." - Steven Strauss, journalist. I was very disturbed but not surprised by this sentence in Steven's article on Vitamin D. I used to believe that if anything significantly new in the scientific community had merrit it would quickly become mainstream. Then I read case after case where the opposite is true; if something is significantly outside the currently accepted model it is fiercely rejected. Here is a short list of famous rejected ideas/inventions. I found the article Strategies for Dissenting Scientists on this site to be especially relevent. It's surprising to me how little is said about the struggles scientists have had getting their ideas accepted. I've read whole books on Albert Einstein that never mentioned the fact that only one university in Europe accepted the kind of physics he was studying. It was regarded by all the others as quakery. There were times when he was forced to do research in his own apartment. Sometimes I think the success of a scientist with significanty new ideas is as much to do with his stuggle against his own scientific community as it is with the merrit of his original thoughts. Last edited on Tue Nov 11th, 2008 08:28 by kenc |
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kenc Member in Phase 3
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Here is a link for Brian Martin's Article on Strategies for Disenting Scientists. He's from the University of Wallongong in Australia. What is with the folks from Australia anyway (B. Marshall, T. Marshall, B. Martin and ...)? Is it the relentless sun?  |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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What is with the folks from Australia anyway? Is it the relentless sun? All of the above Barry and I both graduated (he MD, I, PhD) in the early 80s from University of Western Australia. There was no concept that Science would not conquer every barrier. Remember that my early studies ended up curing male and female Infertility and curing Cryptorchidism, both with pulsatile hormonal injections. These achievements have vanished into the mists of time because of the inability of Australian Science to understand marketing.Barry spent many years visiting/studying in the USA, he had a lab here, and I have been here since 1982. When you take the science, and add the marketing know-how you get a killer combination (I hope )Here is another of those silly senseless pictures which I create with my mathematics. This one was inspired by the paper "A comprehensive in vitro and in silico analysis of antibiotics that activate pregnane X receptor and induce CYP3A4 in liver and intestine." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18505790 CYP3A4 breaks down 1,25-D and you can see it at the bottom of my Bioessay's Fig.1 Here you see Olmesartan docked in the PXR superimposed on a PXR agonist, SR12813. It sure looks like Olmesartan is a likely PXR agonist... Which would help to explain why the 1,25-D levels drops so quickly after Olmesartan is commenced... I also 'took a picture' of Minocycline docked into the PXR, just like these authors noted, but I was unable to get a satisfactory dock with Clindamycin. I assume that it hits a different receptor (which their wet-biology experiment could not differentiate). Minocycline acting as a PXR agonist is likely responsible for the palliation achieved with frequently-dosed mino. It is also likely a major component of the initial effectiveness of Mc Pherson Brown's RoadBack protocol...  |
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Russ Member in Phase 3 
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Dr Trevor Marshall wrote: Minocycline acting as a PXR agonist is likely responsible for the palliation achieved with frequently-dosed mino. Is PXR agonism palliative because it lowers 1,25D or is it palliative for some other reason? If Olmesartan is also a PXR agonist, does that mean that taking it around the clock as we do has the same palliative effect as frequent Mino? |
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Bane Member
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this one is on mice, doesn't it support your claim though? (full text free) Nuclear xenobiotic receptor PXR locks co-repressor SMRT onto the CYP24A1 promoter to attenuate vitamin D3 activation. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18981260 |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Nuclear xenobiotic receptor PXR locks co-repressor SMRT onto the CYP24A1 promoter to attenuate vitamin D3 activation Luckily, the PXR is blocked from activation by 1,25-D. I hope that folk are starting to get some idea of the complexity of molecular processes by following this discussion. The body sets up a delicate balance between so many molecules, often an imponderable number of molecules, and if we destroy that balance (with a drug or supplement) we do so at our peril. Very interesting paper. Still working through it... |
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Bane Member
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question: if this paper applies to humans? Does that suggest that olmesartan and Minocycline agonism of the PXR might act as a catalyst on 1.25 degradation as 25D gets below immunesuppressing and 1.25D falls with olmesartan VDR agonism? Your "it's all a matter of dose" comes to mind Last edited on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 00:58 by Bane |
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findinganswers Member in Phase 2
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Dr. Marshall, So this is old thinking: "Benicar is a PXR antagonist, but so is 1,25-D (another control loop)." (posted Sun Mar 25th, 2007 22:13) in http://www.marshallprotocol.com/forum39/8264-2.html, right? |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Nope, that's nearly two years old stuff Based on a model published more recently I would today opine that Benicar is more likely a PXR agonist at this point, as it is active in the same PXR residues as the known agonist SR12813. The gene SR12813 is confirmed to transcribe is that for CYP3A4. Minocycline is also a confirmed PXR agonist, at high concentrations. Again for CYP3A4. 1,25-D is still an antagonist |
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Lottis Health Professional 
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Yes, very interesting paper!
CYP24 expression only in the kidneys and cyp 3a11 in kidneys and liver...
I just think that since P-gp expression most often go together with the CYP 3A4, and maybe that has something to do with the drug-interaction they are concerned about. /Lottis |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Note: The PXR of mice is not a very good analog of the human PXR. |
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Bane Member
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Dr Trevor Marshall wrote: What is with the folks from Australia anyway? Is it the relentless sun? How common is the use of computers in medicine today when it comes to predicting ligands effect on receptors? From the look of it Trevor doesn't seem to be alone? Hybrid Scoring and Classification Approaches to Predict Human Pregnane X Receptor Activators. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19115096 Machine learning methods and docking for predicting human pregnane X receptor activation. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18547065 Last edited on Thu Jan 8th, 2009 23:50 by Bane |
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Jermack Member in Phase 3
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I didn't know where to post this, but I thought you all might find this interesting. It was in the Denver Post April 24th: University of Colorado Denver School of Medicine professor Charles A. Dinarello has received the country's largest award in medicine or science. Dinarello won the $500,000 prize for leading the cloning effort of the body's molecule that causes fever and inflammation associated with cancer and rheumatoid arthritis. The Albany Medical Center Prize in Medicine and Biomedical Research was presented Friday in New York. It's the second major research award for Dinarello in recent months. Dinarello isolated the molecule in the 1970s and cloned it in the 1980s. His work led to a new discipline, cytokine biology. The Denver Post |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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A new retrospective study showing Vitamin D ingestion has, if anything, a tendency to slightly increase melanoma (a skin cancer). It certainly is not protective. The conference report is summarized at: http://www.medpagetoday.com/MeetingCoverage/SID/14109 Of course, a Vit D proponent has commented that if a higher dose had been used (8000 IU) then the results would have been different. Sure... |
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furch Member in Phase 2 
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This was pretty interesting: "Too Much Sunshine Spurs Suicides in Arctic, Study Says The dreaded blues of dark winter months have long been blamed for seasonal depression, but too much sunshine may have an even more dire effect. In northern Greenland more than 80 percent of suicides occur in summer, during which the sun barely dips below the horizon." http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/05/090508-sunlight-suicide.html |
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DNStog Moderator 
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See MedPage article at link: SteadyIncreaseInMelanomaCasesInUS Hmmm...I'm pondering....since the number of Melanoma cases in the US is increasing and women get it more often, does that mean the sunscreen they have been using on their bikinied bodies, which has lowered their vitamin D levels (per Vit D industry), has given them Melanoma? Wonder if the Vitamin D industry is ready to start sweating yet with this oxymoran? Last edited on Wed May 13th, 2009 01:20 by DNStog |
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Sunset Health Professional
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Here's the latest article and commentary posted by Mercola at Mercola.com "Shocking Update -- Sunshine Can Actually Decrease Your Vitamin D Levels" http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/05/12/Shocking-Update-Sunshine-Can-Actually-Decrease-Your-Vitamin-D-Levels.aspx I've read many articles written by Mercola, but this one takes the cake! The tangle of pseudo-science babble in this video commentary that he tries to assemble as facts is simply laughable!  |
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Knochen Moderator
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Sometimes I just have to laugh at the way my mind works. As soon as I saw that article, the first thing that popped into my head was "It's that man again!". It's a historically based response, to be sure. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_That_Man_Again Those of you wishing the full treatment, may visit http://www.archive.org/details/OldTimeRadio-1940s for actual episodes of the radio program. If nothing else, I hope this post will give you a coping mechanism for the onslaught of Dr Mercola's periodic eruptions in our midst. It's either laugh or scream, and I've chosen to laugh. |
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Carricol Member in Phase 3
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Did anyone ever think of coming up with a new term to refer to Vitamin d that more accurately describes its function. maybe if we all started putting a new label on it it would get people to quit thinking of it as a vitamin. Who knowes? It could catch on. |
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tgritton Member in Phase 3
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Perhaps calciol for vitamin D3 calcidiol for 25 vitamin D calcitriol for 1,25 vitamin D http://www.chem.qmul.ac.uk/iupac/misc/D.html Removing the "V" word would certainly be a step forward |
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Carricol Member in Phase 3
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I was thinking of something more descriptive and less benign. |
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Caitiegirl Member in Phase 2
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How about rat poison? Mindy |
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Rico Moderator
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Steroid D Last edited on Thu May 14th, 2009 01:52 by Rico |
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Kas Member in Phase 2 
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According to today's Toronto Star, we should all be on huge doses of steroid D to ward off a whole slew of ailments " in our pursuit for health and longevity" The Canadian Cancer Society is now recommending 1,000 IU's a day for people aged 50 or older. They state that the older you get, the more you need to ward off diseases such as colon cancer, breast cancer, prostate cancer, diabetes, cardiovascular disease and even MS, and of course osteoporosis and ricketts. It goes on to say that the heavier you are the more you need! The best is this claim - "Vitamin D overload is rare, and the most likely health problem it might entail is increased risk of developing kidney stones". A Boston University D researcher ends of the article recommending that babies and kids should get 1,000IU's daily and adults 2,000 IU's With articles such as this appearing virtually every week in the press, it is no wonder that we have such trouble convincing doctors in this country that we who are deficient in D by choice are not going to become one of their statistic claims and that we are actually getting healthier because of not pumping our bodies full of Vitamin D. Just a stupid question here - do healthy individuals ( those without any TH1 illnesses) really need all this D supplementation, or would they manage just as well as those of us who are 'deprived' on the MP? I just wondered, as I watch my husband swallow his D pills daily to ward off osteo ( he has osteopenia) etc etc. Last edited on Thu May 14th, 2009 15:50 by Kas |
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Knochen Moderator
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I was thinking of something more descriptive and less benign. "The Sunshine Seco-Steroid"! A few headlines like "Legislature forces mandatory steroid use on diary industry - consumers voice concerns" might go a long way toward getting the word out. It may be dirty pool, but sometimes you have to go for a bit of hyperbole to get the conversation started. |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Just a stupid question here - do healthy individuals ( those without any TH1 illnesses) really need all this D supplementation, or would they manage just as well as those of us who are 'deprived' on the MP? I just wondered, as I watch my husband swallow his D pills daily to ward off osteo ( he has osteopenia) etc etc. As the exact VDR metabolism has become clearer, it is apparent (to me) that the human body can make all the Vitamin D it needs (it makes it from 7-dehydrocholesterol within the cytoplasm of nucleated cells). Neither healthy folk, nor ill folk, need any exogenous Vitamin D. As the level of ingested Vitamin D rises it becomes immunosuppressive. Indeed, there has recently been shown an increased clinical incidence of several cancers, including melanoma, at higher levels of Vitamin D. Steroids are addictive. The idiots who promote Vitamin D as a magic bullet (and who usually take large quantities of the drug themselves) have long since lost their ability to reason objectively, and are in total denial of the real effects of the drug. Thankfully, Vitamin D is not an issue in China, and so our focus shifts away from this Western lunacy as we start to transition the MP into mainstream medicine at West China Hospital Don't forget to have another read of Paul's paper: http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/transcripts/AR-Albert-VitD.pdf |
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Sunset Health Professional
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I have to say that the current medical industry’s recommendations and government support of “vitamin D” supplementation to “maintain” or “improve one’s health” despite scientific evidence that shows contrary evidence, that in fact use of this hormone can easily lead to hypervitaminosis D in individuals with Th1 illnesses, is nothing less than criminal! IMO, at least in the US, what we are now seeing is the replacement of the Military Industrial Complex with the Medical Industrial Complex to support big business and cut government costs. Dead people don’t collect social security benefit money but sick people sure do use a whole lot of medical services & costly meds and supplements as a result of chronic illness with a huge payout to big business. I can envision US President Eisenhower, who warned Americans of the harmful effects of a military industrial complex, rolling over in his grave at the thought of a Medical Industrial complex impact on the people of this nation! I know I’m expressing a rather jaded viewpoint, but I am quite sick and tired of living through the effects of “Vitamin D” overdose and now I am watching my family and friends suffer from the impact of excess “vitamin D” use. Some people may think that the only way to deal with such a tragic state of affairs in our medical system is to laugh… I can no longer laugh at this I can only cry. |
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stuckpac Health Professional
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Just call it what it is: "Secosteroid D" |
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Markt9452 Member in Phase 3
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I have to say that the current medical industry’s recommendations and government support of “vitamin D” supplementation to “maintain” or “improve one’s health” despite scientific evidence that shows contrary evidence, that in fact use of this hormone can easily lead to hypervitaminosis D in individuals with Th1 illnesses, is nothing less than criminal! Yes it is criminal negligence. It is also "Human Sacrifice" rooted in the religious doctrine of "evolution" and "survival of the fittest". Unfortunately those who are adverslely affected by vitamin D supplementation are the ones being sacrificed by those who wish to enforce their "ends justifies the means" and "sacrifice the few for the good of the many" philosophy. I believe that eugenics is a good word for it. |
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TikBitten Member in Phase 3
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A "Class Action Law Suit" gets peoples attention and can achieve much. Litigiously yours, TB |
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Aunt Diana Moderator 
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I really like your analogy, Sunset. I don't think you're being jaded at all. You are simply putting two and two together. It's sad that so many people have lost that abiliity. |
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TikBitten Member in Phase 3
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Carricol wrote: I was thinking of something more descriptive and less benign. How about "The Secosteroid Formally Known as Vitamin D" TB |
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BARNEY Moderator 
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I agree w/Ticbitten and Stuckpak. HANG IN THERE, WE WILL MAKE IT!!BARNEY |
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TikBitten Member in Phase 3
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Actually, how about "Sec-D" instead of "Vit-D"??? |
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TikBitten Member in Phase 3
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Kind of catchy isn't it? |
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TikBitten Member in Phase 3
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Even updated my profile (below) so it reads more naturally, whadya' think? TB |
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BARNEY Moderator
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Tic, You are toooo funny!! Actually we should start a class action law suit to make them call it secosteriod. What you think of that idea? Barney |
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paulalbert Board Staff 
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I found an interesting thread this morning at an online forum called Nudist Forum. It's titled, "Why Am I Sick?" http://www.truenudists.com/forum/viewthread.php?id=1480&post=15509 In the thread, at least several nudists are complaining about being sick with what we call Th1 disease. Maybe if they read more studies on vitamin D's efficacy, they'd stop being sick. Paul wow, all the symptoms you wrote about are ones that i`ve been having troubles with. For years now, I`ve been tested and retested for diabetes, low testosterone and a number of other tests. I was just talking to a naturopathic doctor about finding ways to be proactive about my health. She asked me if I am prone to the winter blues, and I said YES!!! I also suffer from lethargy, muscle aches, neuralgia, IBS, SADs...thought it was all residual of my four bouts with Lyme Disease. My doctors have tried everything with my neck including Botox injections, and nothing has helped. It`s worse now than it was before the surgery I had. I have very limited movement from side to side, makes it hard to drive sometimes, and at times the pain is almost unbearable to the point that I have to sit and hold my head up with my hands. |
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BARNEY Moderator
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Paul, Did you tell them that the sun is hard on their bodies? lol HANG IN THERE, WE WILL MAKE IT!!!!BARNEY |
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scooker48 Member in Phase 3 
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We live in a highly liturgous society, and the strongest "guild" or "union" is the AMA, in my humble opinion. It could very well be the only way to fight them is in the courts. Since reading the MP website, I have thought of "vitamin D" as "vitamin DEATH". Sherry |
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Ron Member in Phase 2 
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scooker48 wrote: Since reading the MP website, I have thought of "vitamin D" as "vitamin DEATH". I think we have a winner!  |
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BARNEY Moderator
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Sherry & Ron, Great name!!!! HANG IN THERE, WE WILL MAKE IT!!!BARNEY |
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Cynthia Schnitz Member in Phase 3 
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Would 'Hormone D' be correct, or does that just apply to 1,25D? Cynthia |
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eClaire Member in Phase 2 
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I like Barney's idea about suing "Vitamin D" providers because of the lack of truth in advertising. Claire |
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Deedee Member in Phase 2 
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I was a bit surprised to see this on the Vitamin D guru, Mercola, website in regard to taking fish oil and cod liver oil: Are there any contraindications? If you have been diagnosed with the relatively uncommon condition of sarcoidosis, you should rigidly avoid sunshine and vitamin D, and you should not consume cod liver oil. http://products.mercola.com/faq/cod-liver-fish-oil.htm |
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jcwat101 Research Professional 
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Cynthia, Hormone D would only be possibly for the 1,25D form and so I don't think that would be the way to do it. Joyce Waterhouse |
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Sunset Health Professional
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This was in a Mercola.com article/ infomercial segment entitled: Could This Powerful Breakthrough Beat Cancer and Auto-Immune Diseases? http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/05/26/Powerful-Breakthrough-Beats-Cancer-and-AutoImmune-Diseases.aspx The article/ interview is about the use of low-dose naltrexone (LDN) to treat these patients. And of course Mercola interjects during the interview that he's glad the doctor is doing the right tests for Vitamin D, blah, blah, blah.... Says Dr. Berkson, "It is difficult for many to believe that one drug can accomplish so many tasks. But LDN does not treat symptoms as most drugs do. It actually works way "upstream" to modulate the basic mechanisms that result in the disease state." Does this concept sound familiar to anybody? I'm curious to know if the use of low-dose naltrexone is simply another palliative measure for these Th1 health conditions; something like the way Vitamin D can work initially for these same patients. Any thoughts? Last edited on Wed May 27th, 2009 04:53 by Sunset |
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kenc Member in Phase 3
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I tried LDN low-dose naltrexone. It did't work for my Crohn's disease or any other condition I have. |
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kenc Member in Phase 3
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Sunset, It is believed to up-regulate vital elements of your immune system by increasing your body’s production of metenkephalin and endorphins (your natural opioids), hence improving your immune function. I'm not sure how speculative the above statement on LDN at Mercola's website is. However, if it's true then there should be some immunopathology. Otherwise, according to the Marshall Pathogensis the mechanism is palliation. Ken |
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paulalbert Board Staff
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In my opinion, the people who say these things have zero credibility. How can an opioid of any kind improve immune function? It makes no sense. Paul |
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Deedee Member in Phase 2
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Paul, you said what I was thinking. I don't give anything Mercola says any weight. |
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k Member in Phase 3
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Heard the Cancer Council here in Australia promoting sun exposure to increase vitamin d levels (in winter where UV below 3 and so apparently not skin cancer risk) because of some association with I think they mentioned colon cancer. Sigh. |
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paulalbert Board Staff
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I don't know why this interests me so, but here is JJ Cannell speaking about vitamin D: http://www.viddler.com/explore/mercola/videos/75/ I think he's completely wrong, but listening to him is almost hypnotic. Here's another one that's hypnotic: http://www.viddler.com/explore/mercola/videos/154/ Paul |
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edj2001 Moderator
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I was doing research for a class project and I stumbled upon an interesting hypothesis as to the beginning of the modern vitamin D movement. There was a physician in England in 1981 who supposedly published that more people were sick in winter than summer. The Garland brothers then concluded that the reason for this was the seasonal change in vitamin D exposure and have since build a career trying to prove that hypothesis. The Garland brothers are included as members of the vitamin D Council who call themselves “world class experts”. Quoting from their web site: “Listed below are some of the world's most prominent vitamin D scientists. Considered world-class experts, their extensive knowledge of, and dedication to, the science of vitamin D is evident in the invaluable contribution each has made to humanity's current understanding of vitamin D…” http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/scientists.shtml Also, it is interesting to read about John Jacob Cannell, MD. Again quoting from this web site: http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/cannellBiography.shtml “…In 2003, he (Cannell) recruited professional colleagues, friends, and family for a board of directors and took the steps necessary to incorporate The Vitamin D Council as a tax exempt, nonprofit, 501(c)(e) corporation…’ If you read about Cannell’s history of past “crusades” (in the above referenced site) you will get the impression he is a Don Quixote looking for a windmill. However, they (Council members) are a considerable force in the modern vitamin D movement and will probably go to the grave thinking they are right. Last edited on Thu May 28th, 2009 01:51 by edj2001 |
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paulalbert Board Staff
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World class experts probably isn't such a stretch. The Vitamin D scientists are pretty prominent. All they have to do is point to the studies on vitamin D because most of the researchers are saying exactly what they want. I don't know if they were taunting us but they even put in Trevor's 2004 paper under sarcoidosis. The season of birth connection is interesting. Here's a quote from the KB article on why chronic disease is caused by pathogens: In temperate climates the frequency of late winter and early spring births is generally 5 to 15 percent greater among babies that eventually develop schizophrenia than among controls.17) This association suggests some seasonal environmental influence, such as exposure to infectious agents, which often peaks during winter months. The association was not found in Singapore, where distinct warm and cold seasons are absent.18) Another statistically significant month of birth distribution was found for patients who suffer from Graves' disease and Hashimoto's thyroiditis, which are collectively known as autoimmune thyroiditis.19) If you want to read something else interesting, check out the tail end of this KB section: One of the great mysteries in human biology is the fact that most human breast milk is deficient in vitamin D. How could Nature overlook such an important nutrient in the “perfect food”? Indeed, quite the mystery! It's interesting how befuddled the Vitamin D Council is that breast milk contains low levels of D. One final thing: check out how sunshine exposure "causes" teenage pregnancy. It's abundantly clear – just like the maps that show cancer is caused by vitamin D deficiency, eh?  Paul Last edited on Thu May 28th, 2009 00:59 by paulalbert |
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edj2001 Moderator
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Paul, I think that the alternate hypothesis in the case of pregnant teenagers has to do with it being too cold to take off clothes in the northern latitudes. I note that the NIH has awarded Creighton University $4 million to continue what Creighton is calling their “Landmark Study” even though the first study was fraught with errors and “Bad Science”. Interesting, but not surprising, that all the criticisms of the first study were completely disregarded. “…The National Institutes of Health has awarded Creighton University $4 million to continue its landmark study linking vitamin D to a reduction in cancer risk… …The study’s findings, reported in June 2007, showed for the first time in a clinical trial that postmenopausal women consuming calcium as well as vitamin D3 supplements at nearly three times U.S. government recommended levels could reduce their risk of cancer by 60-77 percent…” http://www2.creighton.edu/publicrelations/newscenter/news/2009/january2009/january262009/lappe_4million_grant_012609/index.php Some of the criticisms of the first study included: 1. Conflict of interest with regard to authors Recker and Heaney who were associated with vitamin manufactures and Heaney is a vitamin D council member. 2. The study should have grouped the placebo and calcium only members to compare with the calcium and vitamin D group. 3. There were no criteria for participant exclusion on basis of past smoking, genetic history of breast cancer, and no one asked if any of these women who averaged over age 67 if they had a hysterectomy. These three cancers (lung, breast, and uterus) accounted for 59% of the total cancers. 4. When questioned about selecting vitamin D dosage the authors referred to a previous paper to claim vitamin D in these doses was safe. However when you go to that study you see that two of the authors, Heaney and another vitamin D council member Vieth, reassured all that D in these doses was safe. A side note is that Vieth’s wife was quoted in a Canadian paper that she sold 30,000 of her vitamin D product in the two days following the publication of this paper. 5. The study was only 4 years long, much too short for a cancer study, but then the authors decided to report only on the last 3 years and not consider the first year on the basis that any cancers were in process and could be discounted. Anyway, there were many other things done wrong to completely disregard any results but no one took a close look to see the warts. If you want to see what is considered good science by the vitamin D council spend some time and read this study!!! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17556697 Because of claimed vitamin D deficiencies in the diet of breastfeeding mothers, the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) is doubling the amount of vitamin D it recommends for infants, from 200 IU per day to 400 IU per day beginning in the first two months of life. IMO, this is reckless and irresponsible!!! There is danger in recommending use of a substance when the exact manner in which it works is not fully understood!!! Last edited on Thu May 28th, 2009 01:51 by edj2001 |
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kenc Member in Phase 3
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Paul, Thanks for giving us this glimpse into the Knowledge Base while it's under construction. What you've shown us is so easy to read and so informative. I'm looking forward to its release into production. Excellent writing! Ken Last edited on Thu May 28th, 2009 05:11 by kenc |
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Sallie Q Member in Phase 3 
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 whatever happened to Mother knows best  my feminist leaning also prompts me to ask What proportion of the Vitamin D Council are females? What proportion have experience in breast feeding and child rearing (as opposed to pontificating)?  |
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Rico Moderator
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Sounds like the Vitamin D Council hasn't put two and two together that the "perfect food" is "deficient in Vitamin D" because it doesn't need it. It's incredible how they are unable or refuse to consider that their theory just doesn't make much sense when they start to battle nature itself - good grief! Surely they must realize that chronic disease is on the increase and that we consume more Vitamin D today than we did one century ago?! After all, how is it that so many people on the MP who've eliminated Vitamin D from their diet are almost all seeing improvements in their health? It's likely that they're eventually going to go down in history like a lead zeppelin succumbing to gravity... |
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Sunset Health Professional
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One of the great mysteries in human biology is the fact that most human breast milk is deficient in vitamin D. How could Nature overlook such an important nutrient in the “perfect food”? This statement by the Vitamin D Council is simply an act of hubris. In the context of the field of science, those individuals whose minds function in this manner are clearly more interested in maintaining their own reputation at the risk of doing great harm to others regardless of what the facts show them. |
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TikBitten Member in Phase 3
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Dr. Marshall- Well my, my look what the hit airwaves today, June 5th 2009. The article is titled "The case against ergocalciferol (vitamin D2) as a vitamin supplement" and compliments of "The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition." I think it would have been more appropriate if they released it tomorrow, June 6th, as it's the 65th anniversary of the Allied landing in Normandy, otherwise known as "D-Day." -> http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/84/4/694 Note the last sentence of the Conclusion which states the following: "Therefore, vitamin D2 should no longer be regarded as a nutrient appropriate for supplementation of fortification of foods." Kudos to Trevor and his body of work as well as the volunteers that have supported him over these past 9 years. With warm regards, great admiration and appreciation... Sincerely yours, TB |
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paulalbert Board Staff
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Tikbitten, I was really excited until I saw the author: Veith. If you look at it closely, he thinks the form of vitamin D derived from plants, vitamin D2 is bad – but only in comparison to vitamin D3. In other words, D2 doesn't pack quite the same immunosuppressive punch as D3. Now if we wanted to be devious we could take this out of context. But that was not the original intent.Paul |
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scooker48 Member in Phase 3
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It is indeed good news; but to continue the analogy of June 6th, we have only landed on the beach at Normandy. There is more fight ahead before Victory; but I am sure we'll make it. Sherry |
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paulalbert Board Staff
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Veith is one of the strongest advocates of vitamin D supplementation. All he's doing is saying one form is better than another.... I love the D-day turn of phrase. We'll have to save that for later. Paul Last edited on Fri Jun 5th, 2009 21:02 by paulalbert |
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jlunn247 Member in Phase 3
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I believe our history for the last 20,000 years has been to avoid sun and then go hunt at night . Then when sunrise came we returned to our caves. Our bodies developed vitamin D factories in our skin. I think we are a very adept at surviving without sunshine. And yes many people can believe the wrong thing for their entire lives. |
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Frans Member in Phase 2 
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paulalbert wrote: Veith. If you look at it closely, he thinks the form of vitamin D derived from plants, vitamin D2 is bad – but only in comparison to vitamin D3. In other words, D2 doesn't pack quite the same immunosuppressive punch as D3. So let us put in in the right context: mr Vieth sells Ddrops, which is D3. (http://www.ddrops.ca/) If you take D2 he does't make money. So he tells you D2 is bad and D3 is good. He also tells us to stay out of the sun, which might give you skincancer. Again, he hopes you buy D3 so he makes a buck. Another thing he is telling us, is that livercod oil is also very bad for you, since it contains vit. A, which will kill your vit. D. So again, please buy (Vieth's) D3, so he can buy that beautiful condo he saw in Miami ... (BTW tell this to eskimos and they will die laughing ... not because of a deficiency in vit. D or vit. A toxicity...) That should be the right contrext, I guess ? Or am I being a bit harsh here ? ... if so, please delete this post, I don't want to upset people Frans |
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paulalbert Board Staff
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I agree with you, Frans. Just to be clear, I think Veith founded his Ddrops company after this 2006 paper. Otherwise he would have to list his Ddrops as a conflict of interest, which he didn't do. Paul |
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BARNEY Moderator
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I agree also, Frans. HANG IN THERE, WE WILL MAKE IT!!!BARNEY |
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Frans Member in Phase 2
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Paul, I am not sure when Vieth went into the D Drops business. See this link: - http://www.infactcanada.ca/Action_Alert_Vitamin_D.htm It is from 2005 and already raises big questions about D Drops manufacturers who have been instrumental in getting the RDA's higher in Canada. I also found a linkin profile of a mister Simon Vieth, who worked for DDrops inc from january 2007. Very close to this 2006 paper ... I think that if you look at Vieth's latest papers, you will most probably see that he never declares competing interests ... It is his wife selling those drops ... He does not benefit from it ... or something ...  |
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paulalbert Board Staff
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Did you ever see Stephen Strauss's article? http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/vp_strauss/20080213.html Paul |
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Frans Member in Phase 2
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I did Paul, I was almost quoting him What I don't understand is that he is still publishing and these editors ignore that the Vieth Household is literally making hundreds of thousands of dollars profit on basis of his 'scientific' work. Perhaps we should mail those editors, Make them understand what is happening? Frans Last edited on Sat Jun 6th, 2009 20:38 by Frans |
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Sallie Q Member in Phase 3
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jlunn247 wrote: I believe our history for the last 20,000 years has been to avoid sun IMHO: dusk when the animals come down to the water hole to drink quick kill for all the extended family, gut and throw in the campfire. have a singalong etc.....big breakfast at dawn and go to sleep all day (too full to move) rest of the week work on your broken tools while slower tribe members go out foraging for fruit and vegies is there an anthropologist in the house to tell me what people were really doing when they just met our 'civilisation' ? |
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Sallie Q Member in Phase 3
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P.S. on this continent more like 60,000 years |
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kenc Member in Phase 3
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Sallie Q, I'm not an anthropologist. So don't expect any answers on this question from me. However, I think I've gathered enough wisdom over the years to realize that scientists (and anthropologists) and just about everyone else tend to project their beliefs onto whatever they are studying. So, I would keep this in mind when reading about early humans from an anthropologist. You may find the book The Century of the Gene by EF Keller interesting. She describes how, until recently, the male view of hierarchy and dominance has determined the course of genetic research and has led to many fictions in this field. According to her even the concept of the gene is now on shaky ground. She's not a feminist. She is a physicist with an interest in molecular and mathematical biology. I think the truly objective scientist is a myth. It may be interesting to draw inferences from the past but I think the present state of our biology is all we can really count on. Ken Last edited on Mon Jun 8th, 2009 21:52 by kenc |
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Wojta Member in Phase 3
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IMHO: dusk when the animals come down to the water hole to drink quick kill for all the extended family, gut and throw in the campfire. have a singalong etc.....big breakfast at dawn and go to sleep all day (too full to move) I don't want to go far from the topic of the thread, but my opinion is that I can hardly believe pre-historic men were living mostly out of the daylight and hunting at night. Just comparing human's poor vision at night, poor hearing, weak smelling or heat detection abilities with many of the animal species makes me believe that we would become rather prey than hunters if we dared to hunt at dusk or night. For the teenage pregnancy vs latitude graphics: - I don't want to be the only one with different opinion once again, but to me the effect of climate on teenage pregnancies makes sense - sure that's not by less clothes worn during the day, but difference in behavior between south and north allows people to spend more time outside in warmer climate. While kids in the north have to spend the cold nights at home under survaillance of their parents whether they want or not, in the south they have many more options of getting out of the house at night, where as one can imagine they get much more privacy just from the dark of the night to do what they want  . Also, the Florida state just confirms this - older population here lowers the teenage pregnancy ratios, which is still a bit elevated compared with norther states. Unfortunately I am still missing a peace of the puzzle for cancer - Vit.D - latitude relation explanation . However, MP seems to be working for me, and that's what counts. |
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Joyful Board Staff 
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Wojta, Have you reviewed this page in the new MP knowledge base: Latitude studies on vitamin D and disease? |
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jlunn247 Member in Phase 3
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YUP ME TIRED MACS ARE BETTER. |
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jlunn247 Member in Phase 3
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HOW COME WE HUMANS HAVE DESTROYED THE WORLD AND HAVE ONLY BEEN AROUND FOR A BRIEF MOMENT IN HISTORY? IS THAT WHAT WE ARE HERE FOR ? PROBABLY. THANKS FOR ALL THE FISH BYE. Editors comment: what is 6x7? |
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TikBitten Member in Phase 3
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Not sure how to respond to all of the above...but a question which continues to elude me on the nature of Vitamin D intake, however, is this... "How does supplemental D3, cholecalciferol, differ from D3 produced in the skin or organs (i.e., kidney or liver) and/or down-regulated counter-parts?" ...and wondering, of course, how it varies metabollically inf the following states: -> Individuals with functioning VDRs, -> Individuals with compromised VDRs, -> Individuals with highly suppressed VDRs Hoping objective rather than anecdotal opinion prevails here, |
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jlunn247 Member in Phase 3
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Who is the most wrong and in a position to dangerously affect the mp? Besides ignorant mp ers. I am not going to sit and be lectured by one more idiot doctor. I have got a rope ready to string him up. A legal "rope" of course. |
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healingjason Member in Phase 3
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There is a new study out about MS, supposed new genes causing MS and a role for vitamin D. Our local Melbourne media dutifully reported that a lack of vitamin D was likely a cause of MS, as promoted by the researchers. Here are a couple of links to the research done at the Uni of Melbourne. June 15 2009 http://newsroom.melbourne.edu/news/n-67 I can't access the full text of the study but perhaps others can and can comment. Interesting to see if low levels of 25D were found in this MS study. These people were also reported in March 2009 at http://www.theage.com.au/national/vitamin-trial-bid-to-prevent-ms-20090318-915b.html I think they believe that because more MS sufferers live in gloomy Tasmania compared to sunny Queensland then, circumstantially, a lack of vitamin D must be involved. I'm not sure that MS as a particular disease has been picked up in the knowledge base about latitudinal associations not meaning proof of effect insofar as vitamin D is concerned - I recall cancer is discussed. John |
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Aunt Diana Moderator
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It is interesting that the higher level of incidence of MS in Tasmania would lead researchers to conclude Vitamin D has something to do with it. On the islands of Nantucket and Martha's Vineyard ( off the coast of Massachusetts) there is an unusually high incidence of MS. Of course, there is also a very high incidence of Lyme Disease. (The ticks are everywhere on those islands). This led me long ago to conclude that these diseases are one and the same. (I now realize that they are both TH1 illnesses...not necessarily the same but very similar) And neither of them has anything to do with lack of Vitamin D...but more likely the presence of lyme disease carrying ticks. (Which of course the locals try to keep as quiet as possible since they depend on tourism for their livelihoods) A history of Martha's Vineyard describes a population in the 1800s that had a high incidence of deafness...so every family (up til recent generations) had at least one deaf person. ( A common symptom of Lyme disease) They say that town hall meetings and community activities were all conducted in sign language...since it was the one common language to all. This also came in handy when fishermen needed to communicate out at sea. Researchers need to be a bit more open and a lot more curious. They all seem to have the same problem of starting out with a hypothesis that they want to prove and consequently leave a lot of possiblities just out there. |
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jcwat101 Research Professional
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TB, I would say that the molecule formed in the skin vs. via ingestion is identical (that is assuming the D from ingestion is D3). What probably differs some is the dynamics of the production of various metabolites involved and the processing time etc... I don't think the answers are clearly known at this time to your questions, though. The lack of knowledge regarding this was mentioned in a recent review where they were determining where more research was needed (Brannon et al 2008). The only thing I know from my own experience is that I find that it takes about 14 -18 hours for me to start to experience effects from ingested D and takes more like 24 to 48 hours from sun derived D. And I find the effect lasts about 5 days unless I consume something like tea (high in CGA). This is different than my reaction at the beginning of the MP when my VDR was blocked. Joyce Waterhouse |
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TikBitten Member in Phase 3
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Hello again, I don't think the above posts were meant to address my previous question regarding D3 behavior across varying states of health, if so, my apologies. In the paper I cited on June 5th (Veith) readily concluded vitamin D2 "Is not suitable for food or dietary supplementation." As far as I can see, and as far the MP study cohort should probably be concerned, this simply means one down (Vitamin D2) one to go, Vitamin D3. With regard to the rest of the article, Veith goes on to explain D3's direct effects on human VDR expression, which by just about anyone's definition categorizes D3 not as a vitamin but as an immune modulating compound. This is the reason as to why I asked for feedback on D3's relation to metabolic human states of health, it allows us to focus on the following: 1) If in healthy individuals Sec-1,25D (the secosteroid formally known as Vitamin 1,25D) is readily down-regulated to D3, absent systemic or acute infection, D3 remains high and 1,25D low. If this statement is in fact correct, the question begging to be asked is this: "If there's no difference between synthetic D3 and endogenous D3 why do healthy individuals need it and, if so, what's the FDA's justification (aside from Ricketts??) for fortifying the food supply with it?" 2) If the biofilm and microbacterial implications of the MP are correct, individuals with suppressed VDR's must avoid it all together. So again, what's the ongoing justification for fortifying the food supply or supplements with it?3) Finally, if the majority of the population according the NIH is contending with subclinical, yet ongoing microbacterial infection, and increasingly compromised VDR expression, why would they want to be exposed to it? Especially if supplemented forms of D3 are neither metabolically or chemically different from endogenous forms. In short, if healthy individuals don't need, sick people can't have it and the jury's out on everyone in between why should the FDA continue to fortify the food supply with it? Especially, since according to Veith, this is actually an immunmodulating drug. It appears to me that, at best, D3 should be classified as a controlled substance, prescribed only by a physician and only for highly specific immune conditions!! But data on the chemical and/or metabolic differences between the two forms of D3 seems pertinent before further argument can be made or justified. Hoping the topic advances, TB
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TikBitten Member in Phase 3
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Joyce- There are a numerous articles by Brannon, would you happen to have a specific link to that document? tx, TB |
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Freddie Ash Member in Phase 3 
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HI TIKBITTEN This is Fred in WV. Tikbitten wroten, "...THIS IS ACTUALLY AN IMMUNMODULATING DRUG. IT APPEARS TO ME THAT, AT BEST, D3 SHOULD BE CLASSEFIED AS A CONTROLLED SUBSTANCE, PRESCRIBED ONLY BY PHYSICIAN AND ONLY FOR HIGHLY SPECIFIC IMMUNE CONDITIONS." I made that type of statement some where at this site back when Dr Marshall first told us that it was a secosteroid. So I agree that it should on be a Rx from a doctor not just added to our food all the time. Look at all the obesity and it may be from all the "steroid vit-D" they are eating from all the food. Remember, we are all in this together and I am pulling for us. Your friend in Sarcoidosis Freddie |
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jcwat101 Research Professional
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TB, Here is the Brannon article abstract: http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/88/2/587S They have a much more cautious and circumspect view of vitamin D -- recognizing that the current dogma advocated by some D enthusiasts has a lot of inadequacies and that dangers have not been sufficiently assessed. Brannon is also on the Institute of Medicine committee that will be reviewing the evidence on vitamin D and calcium. The people on this committee don't include any of the big advocates (Cannell complained about this bitterly). I have sent them a number of articles (by ARF members, plus the Payne article on brain lesions). So, hopefully, they will be more open to our views. Joyce Waterhouse PS Another difference between supplemental and sun-derived D is that supplemental D can be increased indefinitely without limit, whereas, there is more limitation on what vitamin D most get from the sun (and that requires full body exposure on a daily basis for the maximum, which most don't do) Last edited on Tue Jun 16th, 2009 16:40 by jcwat101 |
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Caitiegirl Member in Phase 2
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Joyce, Pardon my denseness but do you mean that the body can't produce as much 1,25 D as it can get through suppementation because we wear clothes and aren't in the sun 24/7 or does the body actually down regulate production of 1,25 D once it has "enough"? Mindy |
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jcwat101 Research Professional
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CG, There is a limit to how much is produced in the skin. I can't recall the details of the mechanism but it is well-established. A given area of skin when exposed to the sun stops making more vitamin D after about 20 to 30 minutes (for Caucasians, longer for darker skin). So, once an area of skin has been exposed for that long, one has produced the maximum for that area of skin for that day. To increase the amount, one would need to do a larger area of skin and/or expose the skin every day. I remember once estimating that I produced about 400 IU by having my hands exposed to outdoor light for 20 minutes or longer (without zinc oxide sunscreen). It takes longer to produce that maximum if you have zinc oxide containing sunscreen on. But if you are out long enough, it will be like not having on any sunscreen (as a certain percentage of the light gets through). Joyce Waterhouse Last edited on Wed Jun 17th, 2009 04:22 by jcwat101 |
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Deedee Member in Phase 2
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That is interesting information on sun exposure. Thanks for the info. It is my understanding from recent posts that it is now thought the most of the D is obtained through the diet. Is this right? I do not cloister myself from light, but I am always covered when I go outside, including the zinc and a hat, long sleeves, long pants and gloves when driving, plus of course the NOIRS. My D is 15. I am very careful not to consume D. I think it will be less the next time. |
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kenc Member in Phase 3
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I wonder how 1,25D and 25D production from the sun are being measured. Are these measurements taken locally from the exposed skin or systemically by a blood sample? I keep thinking 1,25D and 25D production from the sun is mostly for local use, that is tissue repair from UV light damage. Does anyone know? Ken Last edited on Wed Jun 17th, 2009 08:45 by kenc |
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jlunn247 Member in Phase 3
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I found the question! Great now me and Sancho can get back to fighting dragons. |
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jcwat101 Research Professional
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Deedee, I think it depends to a certain extent on the person and the exposures, where their D comes from. The MP approach is to focus on D from the diet as a source for 25-D and avoid sun to the extent the sun sensitivity indicates. Ken, The 25D and 1,25D that is measured is from the blood. They only measure it locally in the skin in an occasional lab study. I don't know how much gets to the blood stream from the skin -- it may vary. Joyce Waterhouse PS Sunscreen Overview has some information relevant to these questions: http://tinyurl.com/ca76l6 (e.g., see Addendum) |
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Deedee Member in Phase 2
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CVS Pharmacy, which is located in the southeastern US, offers a generic product like Neutrogena’s Helioplex (identical ingredients) for a much smaller cost. I use this every day and put it on my face, neck, arms and hands before leaving the house, along with my protective clothing. |
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jlunn247 Member in Phase 3
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I wish there was more science related media for the mp. like a radio program or tv. |
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NorCalJim Member in Phase 3 
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I went onto the Quest Diagnostics site today to lookup a test and saw that they have a video on their webpage called "Vitamin D Testing -- Why it Matters, How it's Done." Forgive me if it's old news, I don't remember hearing about it here before... http://www.vitamindtestfacts.com/ NorCalJim |
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GeorgeinRollaMO Member in Phase 3 
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Hi, Everyone, I am still doing the MP protocol. Just to XXXX busy to do any posting...involved in two legal cases. However, I think that this should be posted. It was pointed out to me by Ann from Illinois, whom Trevor has talked with previously, too. http://www.groworganic.com/item_PAB061_Quintox_Mouse__Rat_Bait_Pail_of_.html As you can read, the product has been pulled from the market place. The manufacturer has pulled his information from his website. I expect that this site will probably pull the information soon, also. I wonder if someone could copy this ad to this site for posterity???? I wonder what government agency is protecting the public? or how much money has changed hands? Wishing all wellness! Dark Vader (George) Category: Weed & Pest Control:Animal and Bird Control eer & Varmint Control Click to see larger picture This item (PAB061) is not currently available. No longer available from the manufacturer -- click here to see part #PAB063. Mouse & Rat Bait Active ingredient in Quintox is cholecalciferol or vitamin D3. When ingested, it mobilizes calcium from the rodent's bones into its bloodstream, producing hypercalcemia and heart failure. Quintox acts faster than anticoagulants, causing death in 2 to 4 days, with feeding stopping immediately once the rodent eats a lethal dose. Testing has shown this bait to be highly effective, even against anticoagulant resistant rodent populations. Very little risk of secondary poisoning (e.g., if your cat or dog catches a poisoned mouse). However, pets and children should be kept from being able to access and/or consume the bait (please note that rodents may move the bait around, so exercise vigilance and caution if pets and/or children are a factor). Unit Ship Weight: 4 lbs. |
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kenc Member in Phase 3
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George, Why was this product pulled from the market? Was it considered too dangerous for pets and kids? Ken |
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GeorgeinRollaMO Member in Phase 3
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Ken, I have no idea of why it was pulled from the market. I have attempted to contact them via email just yesterday to ask them that question, feigning continued interest in "using the product for my warehouse", which warehouse I do actually own and use. I had purchased a bucket of the product last year from Peaceful Valley Farm Supply when Desert Marie brought the product to our attention. I have not heard from the manufacturer, Bell Laboratories Inc. of Madison, WI, yet. Desert Marie was the one who brought the product to our attention. I was hoping to bring the product to everyone's attention that they have taken Quintox off the market by today's post. I think it is significant that they have done so. Madison, WI is the birthplace of at least the synthesizing of cholecalciferol, to my understanding, and that the Un of WI is the owner of the patented process, I think. WI was a very BIG dairy state back prior to the WWII. IMHO, cholecalciferol was used to sell milk then, with the rickets scare, and everything else today. And sure is keeping the OMC (orthodox medical community) busy seeing patients. Wishing all wellness! Dark Vader (George) |
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Rico Moderator
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Does the FDA authorize Vitamin D3 in supplements or is it all D2? |
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Chris Moderator 
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Why was this product pulled from the market? Was it considered too dangerous for pets and kids? There's another link to VitD being used as rat poison around here somewhere. The page was put up by a Veterinarian student, and he pointed out that there is NO antidote for VitD poisoning, which is why it's dangerous for all humans (and maybe mammals?). I think this is the one: http://www.nearlydrferox.blogging4life.com/?p=143 |
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Deedee Member in Phase 2
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I am very concerned at the number of people being prescribed D,even people with sarciodosis, without a second thought. I think it is becoming epidemic. I post on another site and I am continuously shocked at the number of people who are taking D or whose Dr's recommend that they take D, and even with all of the literature and all of the discussion, they still take the D. I talk until I am blue in the face and for some, the Almight Doctor is the gospel, in spite of the facts in front of their face. Anyone doctor that prescribes D to a sarcoidosis patient or person with granuloma disease, or who prescribes without at least doing the D1,25 test, is guilty of malpractice IMO. Think of all of the people being hurt today due to this stupid Vitamin D craze. A few years ago "normal" was 10 or more and now if a doctor sees a D below 30, they freak out and write a prescription. I think my body was fighting off the sarcoidosis for many years (my husband has sarcoidosis), but the year I supplemented with D was the foot-hold the bacteria needed to really take over. |
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kenc Member in Phase 3
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Deedee, Unless the training for doctors has changed recently, to my knowledge they don't get any instruction in nutrition. They may learn about nutrition later on their own. Of course most of the nutritionists and dieticians would probably also recommend vitamin D supplements. However, I know a dietician on the MP who would not recommend vitamin D supplements. She's a rebel among her peers - a fish swimming against the current. Ken Last edited on Wed Jun 24th, 2009 01:42 by kenc |
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Deedee Member in Phase 2
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How hard can it be? There are warning labels on the bottle, for pete's sake. |
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tigerEye Member in Phase 1
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I have been thinking of that for years now because I was taking so many vitamins with D for bone along with calcium and lots of the drinks had vit D also. It's really bad that so much of our food is tampered with making it dangerous. I have also been reading about the effects of Soy products on the thyroid gland, yet we are encouraged to eat lots of soy. I no longer trust food except natural foods that are organically grown....maybe !!!! |
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kenc Member in Phase 3
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tigerEye, What is food? In the past we determined what was edible and what was not by trial and error. Now we can decide with science. Unfortunately, science isn't always objective and free of self interest. So it isn't easy. However, I think we're better off by sticking to real foods and not the synthetic junk that is sold as food. I like the advice in the book "In Defence of Food" by Michael Pollan. I'm very skeptical about vitamin and mineral supplements. To me they are useful in the same way drugs are: to help the sick. They are not food. They should never be included in food (ex. vitamin D in milk). Ken Last edited on Wed Jun 24th, 2009 05:10 by kenc |
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tigerEye Member in Phase 1
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Yes, once food became business years ago, we have no idea what we are eating now. I will check out the book you mentioned, thank you. I go to the Farmers Markets and buy fresh veggies and fruit and even get the ground meat there from a local rancher that is only grass fed no additives. I don't even like to go out to eat anywhere now because who knows what is in that food. |
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NickBowler Member in Phase 3 
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http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-06-22-vitaminD-fishoil_N.htm?csp=34 20 million dollars! The kids won't stand a chance! |
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Deedee Member in Phase 2
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"People with dark skin are unable to make much vitamin D from sunlight, and researchers think this deficiency may help explain why blacks have higher rates of cancer, stroke and heart disease" Nick, that sure is a leap to link higher rates of disease among African Americans to Vitamin D. I wonder how they intend to control for lack of access to health care, stress, the unusually high rate of unemployment, diet, weight, smoking and other factors that can also account for high rates of cancer, stroke and heart disease? After what researchers did to African American males in Tuskegee Alabama I don't believe I would be so quick to sign up for that study if I were African American. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Study_of_Untreated_Syphilis_in_the_Negro_Male) Good grief. |
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tigerEye Member in Phase 1
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Dee Dee, Absolutely !!!!!! And, part of the reason for no research into Sarcoidosis in the early years was because it was thought to only affect AA population. And, we like to believe we are the Best Nation !!!!!!! Read History and we learn some of the horrors of our own country. |
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Caitiegirl Member in Phase 2
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What's really bothersome is that heart disease, cancer, and stroke are most likely lagging diagnoses in the Th1 spectrum. What will they do with all of the new RA, migrane, depression, OCD, MS, lupus, etc sufferers. Will they be cut from the study or will they see the connection? Hopefully with the new papers and attention the MP is getting there will be a little bit of logical thought along the way. Mindy |
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Deedee Member in Phase 2
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I was reading some research papers from the UK on Vitamin D and there was invariably some poor unsuspecting souls that presented with hypercalcemia after D supplementation. That doesn't tell us how many people had their kidneys working overtime to dump calcium before it reached high levels in the blood. Going back to the "low Vitamin D in African Americans." You know, perhaps the great designer or nature or whatever you believe knows something we don't know. The darker the skin, the less D gets in. I read somewhere that it takes 5 X longer for people with very dark skin to get the same amount of D as those people who have pale skin. Evolution prepared us for the climates we lived in for many many thousands of years, with darker skin letting in less D in sunny climates and pale skin letting in more D where the skies are not as sunny. It is likely that there are other ways we evolved to accommodate the climates we lived in for eons that we don't understand. So the plan is to pump darker skinned people with MORE D because our bodies can't tell us how much D we need but the great researchers can second-guess Mother Nature and correct her mistakes in the rainbows of colors we evolved to become? Please.... Wouldn't it be interesting to test the REVERSE theory, and that is 'how does our supplemented western diet impact people with skin designed to keep D out of their systems?" Could it be that people with darker skin designed to keep D out, would find even moderate (whatever that is) levels of D dangerous to their systems and perhaps even shut down the immune system even more dramatically? These are the ponderings of a woman with too much time on her hands and an over-curious mind........ |
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Joyful Board Staff
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Deedee, These are the same people that think there is something wrong with mother's milk because it is D deficient. They can't be helped. Really. |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Evolution prepared us for the climates we lived in for many many thousands of years, with darker skin letting in less D in sunny climates and pale skin letting in more D where the skies are not as sunny. Have you ever seen a quantitative study which showed that statement to be true? I haven't... |
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Deedee Member in Phase 2
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The first I heard this explanation was through the National Geographic study on the Human Genome and migration, which was very interesting: http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/elsi/humanmigration.shtml I was very impressed with the 2 hour documentary, Journey of Man: A genetic Odyssey, which is now available on You Tube in 13 part series. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV6A8oGtPc4 I believe the information is within this documentary, as well. In the documentary we learn that we are all descendants of Africa and race is really a myth. If you have never watched this documentary, you owe it to yourself to watch it. It is fascinating. I did find some of the same information here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_skin_color although there is some unfortunate pro-D bias, it basically says the same thing. There are references posted there. |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Deedee, What I am trying to say is that I never seen a study which measures the production of 'Vitamin D' (whichever one they are talking about) in the skins of various tints. This is the same type of myth as the one saying that mankind needs sunshine to survive - please prove it. A very elegant study in fish showed that neither dietary Vit D nor sunlight are necessary. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9675700 Yet we blindly accept these old-wives-tales because they 'sound reasonable'. It is time to start questioning all these pragma, and asking for real data, good solid (measured) data... |
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kenc Member in Phase 3
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I think the choice of what to study, how to study it and how to interpret the results is dependent upon the beliefs that are held by the investigators at the time. These investigators probably believe vitamin D is a vitamin and that we need an adequate amount of it to be healthy. If the investigators started with the Marshall Pathogensis it's unlikely they would do such a study and if they did they would do it very differently (ex. measure both 1,25D as well as 25D). Every study begins with some framework of beliefs. I think real progress is made when the framework is changed. The Marshall Pathogensis provides a new framework for understanding chronic disease. It's amazing how different things look like from this new framework! I see people with chronic disease so differently now. Last edited on Thu Jun 25th, 2009 06:09 by kenc |
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GeorgeinRollaMO Member in Phase 3
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As I mentioned in my previous email, I asked the manufacturer of the Quintox rodent control product why they had pulled Quintox from the market. The answer that I received today: "We have dropped two of our three Quintox products in anticipation of the release of our new and improved line of Vitamin D3 based baits, Terad3. Terad will be available in both pellet and in the long requested, block form. In the mean time you can still purchase Quintox Rat and Mouse bait as a bulk pellet form." I guess that they still like the ability of cholecalciferol to pull calcium from the bones and put it into the arteries and heart of rodents to kill them. I guess that they leave it up to someone else to figure out that is the basis of osteoporosis and granulomatous disease in humans...and maybe, arteriosclerosis, heart attacks and strokes!? Oh well!!! My duty is to pay taxes and die. Wishing all wellness! Dark Vader (George) |
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Ron Member in Phase 2
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GeorgeinRollaMO wrote: We have dropped two of our three Quintox products in anticipation of the release of our new and improved line of Vitamin D3 based baits, Terad3. Very nice.. HERE IT IS in pdf |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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My duty is to pay taxes and die Hopefully you are not focusing on the latter responsibility at this time, George Good to hear from you again |
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GeorgeinRollaMO Member in Phase 3
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No, Trevor, I am not. Thank you! Just too XXXX busy with some stuff, taking care of living responsibilities, and herxing. I wish that I could report a quantum leap in improvements but I cannot. Just trudging along on the MP. This is the question that I asked Bell Laboratories today after receiving an answer to my original question to them...."Has anyone there in your organization ever considered to mention to the OMC (orthodox medical community) or TPTB (the powers that be) that the basis of the killing of rodents with cholecalciferol may be what is killing humans by way of arteriosclerosis, heart attacks and strokes....only poisoned with a little bit over a longer time, which accumulates to do its dastardly job the same as arsenic, lead and mercury? Cholecalciferol does accumulate in the body... it has a half life that may be measured in months, according to some sources." The answer that I received: "Actually most of the rodenticides originally started as pharmaceuticals. Like D3/cholecalciferol, the most popular form of rodenticides are anticoagulants and are derived from the Warfarin molecular backbone. Warfarin is still used quite commonly as a medical anticoagulant. Warfarin was first isolated here at the University of Wisconsin - Madison (Warf = Wisconsin Alumni Research Foundation) and quickly became the postoperative and coagulation problem treatment of choice. We worked with the university in the early days to develop warfarin into a rodenticide and later cholecalciferol (the primary developer of Vitamin D3 being Dr. Deluca of UW - Madison.). Like so many things in life, a little is good for you, and a lot, not so good for you." I decided to leave the questioning there, but IMHO, what is said does give some clues for some questioning that I sure would like to know the answers to. Alumni foundations sure seem to be money raising entities. I wonder.........! Wishing all wellness! Dark Vader (George) |
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terrylmcc Member in Phase 3 
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Today on my local news, ABC affiliate. Had a small story, saying that John's Hopkins study links Mothers with coeliac disease and rheumatoid arteritis, have higher incidence of having children with autism. Im sure the study can be found at the John Hopkins website. I just dont know where to begin to look. But thought this worthy of mention as it points in the direction of Dr Marshall's work. Thanks Terry |
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DNStog Moderator
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Here's the article, I think: AutismLinktoAutoimmuneDisease or http://health.msn.com/health-topics/pain-management/arthritis/articlepage.aspx?cp-documentid=100241504 |
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eClaire Member in Phase 2
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This new piece of info would do well in the autism thread. Claire |
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Freddie Ash Member in Phase 3
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HI ALL This is Fred in WV. I will put this info here becasue I believe that this is do to the high vit-D in the diet causing the problem. A local TV station had a story about a study and also see a rise of children with kidney stones. It said it was 4 fold now. They are having to have kidney stones removed at very young ages 8, 9, 10 even. They had one little boy trying to tell others to not be afraid to have it done. Of course they were blaming it on being over weight. Remember, we are all in this together and I am pulling for us. Your friend in Sarcoidosis Freddie |
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Limburg Member in Phase 2 
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Children do get affected on younger age, also with multiple sclerosis. The youngest child with an MS diagnose I read off (in the Netherlands) is seven years young .Researchers say one of the reasons for this is better equipment such as MRI scanners. Ways of investigations are better documented etcetera..... What could be other reasons? |
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Ron Member in Phase 2
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Moles hold the key to melanoma genes Both the 'meloma genes' are in table 4 of Wang et al... |
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scooker48 Member in Phase 3
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I have read that "Vitamin D" is low in all dark-skinned peoples of the world; not only those of African-American ancestry. [size=Vitamin D deficiency is prevalent in infants who are solely breastfed and who do not receive vitamin D supplementation and in adults of all ages who have increased skin pigmentation or who always wear sun protection or limit their outdoor activities.] [size= ][size=Vitamin D: importance in the prevention of cancers, type 1 diabetes, heart disease, and osteoporosis.] - Holick MF - Am J Clin Nutr - 01-MAR-2004; 79(3): 362-71 Sherry |
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DNStog Moderator
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Fish oil doesn't show Altzheimer's decline. Hmmm, could it be the Vitamin D??? http://www.medpagetoday.com/MeetingCoverage/ICAD/15054?userid=173988&impressionId=1247549013855&utm_source=mSpoke&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=DailyHeadlines&utm_content=Group1 |
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k Member in Phase 3
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"Senior research fellow Changhai Ding said the findings are important as they conclude that vitamin D deficiency plays an important role in knee osteoarthritis and achieving vitamin D sufficiency in osteoarthritis patients could significantly delay cartilage loss and the need for total knee replacement." http://www.themercury.com.au/article/2009/07/21/85781_tasmania-news.html Also heard this on ABC Radio yesterday. Sigh. |
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Lottis Health Professional
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Achieving vitamin D sufficiency Well, he sees the connection, and his conclusion has not stated that supplementation would be the way to reach sufficency. There is no reason to give up here. |
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edj2001 Moderator
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FYI, Mark Crislip MD, a practicing Infectious Disease specialist in Portland, Oregon, since 1990, has posted a critique about the MP at the following web site: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=563#comment-28458 I was aggravated by his condescending attitude so made a couple of comments. He made the last post saying he would respond in 3 weeks. However, I don’t look for an epiphany. Gene Last edited on Sat Jul 25th, 2009 04:21 by edj2001 |
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Wojta Member in Phase 3
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I think Dr.Crislip's and most doctors' attitude is best seen in this his statement:What diseases are treated with this protocol?....--Th1 list goes here---......... That’s a good list. Back pain, mania, osteoarthritis, vertigo, and kidney stones all have the same pathogenesis and treatment. I went to medical school for what? Other his words: Sarcoid is an interesting disease whose etiology is unknown but is characterized by non-caseating granulomas. Granulomas are an immunologic response to infections, often fungal or mycobacterial, and I will not be surprised if some day an infectious cause of sarcoid is discovered. Same, I will bet, for Crohns, another disease of uncertain origin that has granulomas. For as of today, no definite infection has been found to cause sarcoid or Crohns. It's like having a blindfolded guy remove his fold who just loves to put the fold back on. |
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bealunn Member in Phase 3
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Hi Gene (Edj2001), Very interesting read. I welcome it. For possibly the first time we see someone questioning the MP in a less emotive and irrational way. This is a MD voicing what for him are valid concerns he has about MP science which of course he has every right to do. There are some paradigms that he is struggling with and which are challenging his established ideas but in general his questioning of both sides of the argument is the stuff of medical research and is a healthy part of the debate. I think that he will be very pleased to see that the MP is now entering into that phase of research that he puts so much faith in: the clinical trial and I am sure he will applaud TM's initiative in partnering with the West China Hospital for this research. It certainly helps us to understand the vital importance of the collaboration that TM has put so much time and effort into over the past few months. Have you sent him the link to the press release yet? |
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edj2001 Moderator
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Hi Bealunn, You make some good points however, I think it will be difficult (but not impossible) for Dr Crislip to reconsider his opinion of the MP. The inertia of the Vitamin D Council of “self proclaimed experts” will weigh heavy on his decision. Think Dr Mercola. I hope he proves me wrong. As Wojta points out, Crislip considers bacteria a possible cause for granuloma diseases and his training is infectious disease. He has to be motivated to find a cure for so many idiopathic diseases. How can he not see the possibilities, opportunities, and even risk to his reputation to dice the MP off hand. He may just cop out and say "I don't know" rather that take a position. Did you see Dr Bojrab’s post noting that he had earlier discussed the MP with another enthuastic MD and was impressed enough by that conversation to post a link to the MP site? Also, the post by “abetterjuli” linked to the WCH press release. She pressed for answers. Both of these “citizen” comments will weigh heavy in Crislip’s thinking. I don’t know if he can learn the MP science in just three weeks, it takes a PhD EE to do that, but we will see. Stay tuned. Gene Last edited on Sat Jul 25th, 2009 19:00 by edj2001 |
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eClaire Member in Phase 2
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Bealunn, I'm laughing out loud here ( ) because I did not think the infectious disease's doctor's approach to be less emotive or irrational. I found it condescending and heavy handed, particularly how he introduced the topic, which to me gave away the fact that he is probably not going to be open to honestly investigating the MP. I thought he would be well suited as a spin doctor for a major political campaign and I told him something to that affect. Claire |
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Ralph Member in Phase 3 
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I just could not help myself. I had to make comment on Dr Crislips board though whether my statement which is simple will be swiss cheezed is to be seen. Dr Crislip, Your comments and view are no different to the rest of the medical thinking in the age of profound technology and breakthroughs. The current thinking of you and your collegues is not about curing people, just pushing your own self interests and leaving your patients seriously ill and prescribing drugs for these diseases which add profoundly to a life of misery. As a Sarcoidosis patient on the MP who has turned this disease around to be on a path of full recovery you can state what you want. The facts, results and science are there and cannot be disputed. You quote many of the reported articles from Dr Marshall. Please read them….if you really care about helping people. Ralph |
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Deedee Member in Phase 2
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I found the article very disturbing particularly because he states that Vitamin D is important for everyone to prevent cancer and other diseases and ridicules the MP for telling people to lower their Vitamin D levels. He has a total ignorance of the contraindication of Vitamin D for people with granuloma diseases, although this is listed as a contraindication on the Vit D bottles themselves and more and more "sarcoidosis specialists" are warning people with sarcoidosis to avoid D and prolonged sun exposure. Even Mercola now warns people with sarcoidosis not to supplement. He goes on to say, "Granulomas are an immunologic response to infections, often fungal or mycobacterial, and I will not be surprised if some day an infectious cause of sarcoid is discovered" but has apparently spent little time reading the research of many investigators who have found bacterial links to sarcoidosis, including a recent study through Vanderbilt which implicates a "novel" macrobacteria similar to TB found in sarcoidosis tissue but not in control groups. The Vanderbilt researchers appear to be at least a step behind, as they have not discovered the biofilm as causative of sarcoidosis, but Crisplip is even ignorant of the most recent University research. I found the article alarming, as it will misinform many. |
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kenc Member in Phase 3
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Bealuun, IMO Mark Crislip's critique of the Marshall Protocol provides mostly an emotional rather than rational argument. It would appeal mostly to those not very familiar with the protocol, so I would like to provide some analysis here.
Mark Crislip does not define what he means by alternative therapies. From his tone we can speculate he means the therapies that don't work. In his opinion almost all of these therapies are discovered by one individual. It is false logic to conclude that since the Marshall Protocol was developed by one individual, it must be a failed therapy or will be shown to be a failed therapy. Furthmore, Dr. Marshall's work is based on the work of many other scientists and contributors including those of us who are in the trial providing the clinical trial results. The Marshall Protocol has all the characteristics of modern alternative therapy: a single discoverer, a hitherto undiscovered biology, an unproven therapeutic intervention and one of the most aggravating issues in SCAM’s: Taking a scientific truth the size of a molehill and transmogrifying it into a Cascade Range of exaggerated disease etiology and treatment. The purpose of the Marshall Protocol trial is to provide evidence that the Marshall Protocol and thus the Marshall Pathogensis is valid and it has provided some evidence, mostly anadotal but some objective. The West China Hospital trial is intended to gather more evidence. To my knowledge there is no such concept of proof in science. Proof is used in law, not science. In science there is evidence to support an hypothesis. When there is adequate evidence an hypothesis becomes a theory. At any time evidence my arise that does not support an hypothesis or theory. Mark Crislip does not identify the small scientific truth that he claims is being made into a range of exaggerated disease etiology and treatment, so we have no way of evaluating this criticism. However, we are left with an impression that something is being extended farther than it should. Perhaps his goal is only to create an impression. [Dr. Marshall] does have patent applications for his protocol. The implication is that Dr. Marshall is not currently making money on this therapy - another attribute to these so-called alternative therapies - but intends to make money on it later, so it's still really the same thing. More money is made on therapies that work than don't work. Just because someone is making money on a therapy doesn't mean it doesn't work. Dr. Marshall has devoted a huge amount of time (and likely a lot of money) to the development of the protocol. Monetary reward from patents will likely only come if the protocol works since who would be willing to pay to use a patented protocol if it didn't work. Personally, I hope Dr. Marshall gets well rewarded financially for his work. Dr Marshall is a PhD in electrical engineering. First of all Dr. Marshall has an Phd in Biomedical Engineering from a university that grants Biomedical Engineering degrees as part of Electrical Engineering. However, this is irrelevant. The value of a scientific contribution is not depended upon the credentials of the contributer. Just out of interest, I've been reading about genetic research. I am amazed by the parallels between the concepts in electrical engineering and computer science with the concepts in genetics. That combined with the extensive use of computer similations, suggests to me Dr. Marshall's background is ideal for the work he is doing.
This is incorrect. The suggestion is that autoimmune diseases are caused by infection. The diregulation is due to the infection. In an interview he points to ‘bacteria” on electron micrographs that are living happily in white cells. How does he know they are bacteria 100 times smaller than usual? Can he grow them? No. Yes, how does he know? That's a good question. If Mark Crislip read about L-form bacteria, he would know they are very difficult to grow but there are other techniques for detecting their precence. Just because Dr. Marshall has not grown them doesn't mean they are not there.
In this passage Mark Crislip is refering to the intraphagocytic, metagenomic microbiota that is hypothosized to cause the diseases that the protocol is designed to treat. Including the adjectives, untested and unproven, would only serve to increase the emotional impact. It would not be useful in a rational argument.
This implies someone in the infectious disease field must use the term, 'Th1 pathogens', before it is valid. Since the Th1 pathogens are intracellular they would be subject to the cellular immune system associated with the type 1 T helper cells, not the humoral immune system associated with the type 2 T helper cells - hence the name, 'Th1 pathogens'. Calling the term, 'sciency', would only serve to increase the emotional impact. It would not be useful in a rational argument. Unfortunately, the L forms, or even pathogens, have not yet been discovered in most of the diseases treated by the Marshall Protocol. If Mark Crislip read more about the Marshall Pathogensis he would know that it does not depend upon a correspondence between specific L-form bacterial species and specific diseases. The Marshall Pathogensis is based on a very different model where only the interactions between the genes in the metagenome (the combination of human and bacterial genes) is important.
This is not specific enough to be clear. Olmesartan blocks the antagonist effect on the receptor from only one form of vitamin D (25D) while activating the receptor in the same way as another form of vitamin D (1,25D).
Perhaps there is an in vitro way to determine whether olmesartan binds to the vitamin D receptor. However, would this be any better than a computer simulation? Either way, in vivo testing would be required to determine the effects of this activation. Unfortunately this can only be performed on humans since these receptors in non-human animals including monkeys have different immunological functions than in humans. It is not correct to conclude that the two drugs of the same type (ex. ARBs) will have the same effects on all receptors. Valsartan does not have the same effects on the vitamin D receptor as olmesartan has. As part of an emotional argument Mark Clislip sarcastically calling himself a 'close-minded tool of the medical industrial complex'. This is not useful for a rational argument. Given the growing literature demonstrating the a deficiency of vitamin D increases risks for a variety of infections, from viral to tuberculosis, I am uncertain of the wisdom of suggesting this intervention without supporting clinical trials. I can understand Mark Crislip's concern here. However, the Marshall Pathogensis is based on the concept that it is vitamin D disregulation from the infection with these L-form bacteria that lowers the form of vitamin D that is measured in these studies, rather than the lack of vitamin D in the diet or from light.
Vitamin D disregulation has been clinically measured in a wide range of diseases, not just sarcoidosis. Back pain, mania, osteoarthritis, vertigo, and kidney stones all have the same pathogenesis and treatment. I went to medical school for what? This is incorrect. The Marshall Pathogensis does not state any specific diseases can be treated successfully by the Marshall Protocol. That needs to be determined by clinical trials. Evidence from the current trial suggests a wide range of diseases may be successfully treated by the protocol. I hope Mark Crislip didn't go to medical school so that he could use his credentials to critique the Marshall Protocol. Based of hypothesis that are almost certainly not true. How can Mark Clislip be so certain without presenting evidence. It is clear to me from Mark Clislip's critique that he has not read enough of the information available about the Marshall Protocol or Pathogensis to provide a useful rational argument against it. Ken Edited to add: I release my analysis on Mark Crislip's critique of the Marshall Protocol with some formatting and content errors. I'd like to correct the following comment I made:
I would like to delete the statement beginning "The Marshall Pathogensis is based...". I need more time to think this over. There are other IMO more minor content errors that I won't bother correcting. Really, no one can adaquately address this critique as well as Dr. Marshall himself. I just don't think Mark Crislip's critique is good enough for him to bother doing so. Ken |
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Deedee Member in Phase 2
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Ken, thank you for the thoughtful study of Crislips paper. |
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kenc Member in Phase 3
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I release my analysis on Mark Crislip's critique of the Marshall Protocol with some formatting and content errors. I'd like to correct the following comment I made:
I would like to delete the statement beginning "The Marshall Pathogensis is based...". I need more time to think this over. There are other IMO more minor content errors that I won't bother correcting. Really, no one can adaquately address this critique as well as Dr. Marshall himself. I just don't think Mark Crislip's critique is good enough for him to bother doing so. Ken |
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eClaire Member in Phase 2
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Ken, You did what I would like to have done. I found his argument to be so full of logical fallacies that I did not have the energy to even begin to address all of the slights of logic he stuffed into his blog. A job well done on your part. Claire |
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kenc Member in Phase 3
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Gene, I think analizing critiques, like Mark Crislip's, of the Marshall Protocol helps me to sharpen my skill at responding to critiques of the protocol in general and furthers my committment to the protocol. However Mark Crislip is a debunker. I don't think people seeking to find medical solutions to diseases will likely look for them at the Science Based Medicine website or from Mark Crislip. He has a website called QuackCast where he states, "Ridicule, bewailing, and scorn are my favorite techniques. I am an arrogant, closed minded, Western trained, tool of the medical industrial complex. And proud of it." Mark even debunks the existance of the placebo effect. From now on I'd like to do the analysis of critiques found in places where people are more likely to be looking for solutions. I'd also like to leave the analysis of rational critiques from scientists for Dr. Marshall and Amy Proal. Ken |
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edj2001 Moderator
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Hi Ken, I thought your analysis was right on target and you might want to add it to the comments. Remember, the reason for posting isn't to change Crislip's opinion but to alert those lurking in the audience that there is new science and maybe their idiopathic disease does have a known cause and cure. I wish someone had told me about the MP when it was first published. This is reinforced by the comments of people who are benefiting from the MP. The recent posts have given strong support to the MP. Well done!!! Gene |
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Rico Moderator
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Health agency to test link between flu, vitamin D http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/agency-to-test-link-between-flu-vitamin-d/article1231852/ “The evidence is almost overwhelming that vitamin D appears to be making the immune system attack foreign entities better,” said Reinhold Vieth, a professor in the department of nutritional sciences at the University of Toronto. |
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eClaire Member in Phase 2
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Vieth... hmmm, now why is that name familiar and where is that wink emoticon when you need it? |
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kenc Member in Phase 3
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Rico, Here we go again. I wonder if the research team has considered the possibility that people in Northern climates also stay indoors more when it is cold thus being in an enclosed environment where the flu virus is more likely to spread? Again and again we see when researches come into a study with certain assumptions, like vitamin D is just another vitamin like vitamin C or that it's even a vitamin at all, they come to conclusions from the data based on those assumptions. When someone somes along with a different set of assumptions that leads to a different interpretation of the data. Ken |
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jcwat101 Research Professional
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I also address this topic in this article: http://www.townsendletter.com/Jan2009/vitaminD0109.htm << Influenza and Colds It has been proposed that vitamin D levels' decline in winter best accounts for the seasonality of colds and influenza52 and that this potentially supports the need for increased supplementation.52,53 However, new evidence indicates that changes in the viral coat properties can account for the seasonal outbreaks at higher latitudes.36,37 Effects on the airways in dry, cold climates also appear to increase susceptibility to viral and bacterial infections in winter and could contribute to higher winter prevalence of respiratory infections in cold climates.38 Another important point is that the patients being followed on the Marshall Protocol include a number of individuals who report that during the worst period of their chronic illness, they had few or no colds or flu-like illnesses, sometimes for many years at a time. And sometimes this low rate of colds was apparent even years before their illness. This has also been reported in Parkinson's disease, with the decrease in viral respiratory infections also occurring several years before the disease was diagnosed.54 Thus, even if future research were to establish that vitamin D supplementation reduced colds and influenza, this is by no means an adequate argument for its use. The above observations in chronically ill patients indicate that observing a reduction in respiratory viral infections is not always a sign of good overall health.>> See the link for the references. Also, an expert on colds has told me that 25% of colds are cleared without any symptoms, so studies that look at symptoms alone are not going to be very reliable. Joyce Waterhouse |
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GeorgeinRollaMO Member in Phase 3
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On July 22, K, a MP member in Australia, made a post, and gave the link, about an article that he found in The Mercury, a Tasmanian newspaper. I just happened to look in at this forum soon after that and went to the link. I left a comment on the Mercury site, which was further spoken to by a Lloyd Finch on July 23. I wish that I had posted his comment here soon after for possible inclusion by Paul and Amy for their presentation in D.C. Found at: http://tinyurl.com/mnqds9 "I am a retired biochemist who spent years in teaching and research on the regulation of biochemical pathways for interconversions of molecules in cells. A generalisation from the observations in this field is that a high concentration of the functional end product of a pathway will provide negative feedback to lower the concentration of an earlier intermediate (precursor) in the pathway. For vitaminD, the functional end product is 1,25-dihydroxy vitaminD. This is rarely measured, because its amount in the body and its stability is low and its assay is difficult and expensive. The major product circulating in blood and routinely measured as an indicator of vitamin D status is 25-monohydroxy vitaminD. This is a precursor of 1,25-dihydroxy vitaminD. The established logic of regulation for biochemical pathways says high levels of 1,25-dihydroxy vitaminD will lead to lowered levels of 25-monohydroxy vitaminD. There is data on the actual mechanisms by which this can occur. There also data that 1,25-dihydroxy vitaminD can increase in response to infection. Common sense and honesty requires consideration of the strong hypothesis that people who have low levels of measured vitaminD (25-monohydroxy vitaminD) have high levels of 1,25-dihydroxy vitaminD because they are sick with some form of infection. To suggest that the people are sick because they are vitaminD deficient without having data to rule out the above possibility (likelihood) is sloppy science." Posted by: Lloyd Finch 07:38pm Thursday 23rd July ************************************ I do not know who Lloyd Finch is. But this information ties in with what Trevor has been saying. Since this man is retired, the information must have been around for a good length of time. I like his last sentence, in particular. Wishing all wellness! Dark Vader (aka, George) |
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k Member in Phase 3
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That's excellent! |
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scooker48 Member in Phase 3
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Yes, I agree this is very informative and Thanks to all. I sometimes stop and think how far we've come in the last five years; we've made huge leaps forward. The clinical trials which we are now working on in China will be the next major project, and I am dedicated to seeing they come to pass. As for the physicians and others who want more proof, okay. Fair enough, we'll give you more proof. This will be interesting reading for the next generation. Sherry |
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Ron Member in Phase 2
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Common sense and honesty... Interesting indeed. |
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Wojta Member in Phase 3
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I am not trying to blame anyone, but the Lloyd Finche's post seems "too good to be true", matches too closely with the MP, hard to believe that person which such a view on 25D and 1,25D wouldn't be involved with MP and/or promoting it yet. My opinion is that the post is written by an MPer, although would be nice to find out it was an independent opinion. |
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paulalbert Board Staff
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I agree with Wojta. I would, however, be interested in hearing what examples Lloyd is thinking of when he says, "A high concentration of the functional end product of a pathway will provide negative feedback to lower the concentration of an earlier intermediate (precursor) in the pathway." Paul |
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edj2001 Moderator
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Lloyd Finche has posted some comments about the MP at this site: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=563#comment-28458 From what he says here I take it he is on the MP: "...In May 2006, I was told about the Marshall Protocol. Reading it was a Eureka moment, like others that I have had over 60 years of science. The excitement of seeing something new that that explains those puzzles in a logically satisfying way, with missing pieces that can be expected to slot in as they are found. In the 3 years since a lot of pieces have slotted in..." |
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scooker48 Member in Phase 3
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I remind people this is a good problem to have; the cure to many Chronic Illnesses is understood by some people. Five years ago, only about 50 people were on the MP. I believe we have more than 750 people actively reporting, although the true number is far higher. That is a growth rate of not quite 400%. We have numerous articles in the authoritative medical and scientific publications which explain it to anyone with enough concentration to comprehend. The understanding will only continue to grow, I am sure. And to quote Trevor, here it is in a nutshell: 25-D only is a problem when the blood level gets high enough to be immunosuppressive. This occurs at levels above 15ng/ml... 25-D is not immunosuppressive when the blood 25-D level falls below about 15ng/ml, and it really makes little difference whether the level in the blood is 5ng/ml or 10ng/ml or 15 ng/ml, as that level entering the cells will not destroy regulation within the cell by the body's metabolism. No doubt about it, we've made huge progress. And in truth, I will never know why I put two words into google.com on January 4, 2005: sarcoidosis and cure. That lead me to sarcinfo.com and the rest is history. But today my lab tests, CT scans, and Bone Mineral Density reports are all returning to normal. Let's take stock of how far we've come; I am certain the upcoming China campaign will be very exciting. Sherry |
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jcwat101 Research Professional
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Some of you may be interested in a German translation of my MP article for the Townsend Letter -- Part One and Two. http://tinyurl.com/nqzfbw http://tinyurl.com/lbod4k Thanks go to Katrin for doing part two and checking over part one, which was done by an unknown person. In case you are interested, the English version is at: http://snipurl.com/townsend1 and http://snipurl.com/townsend2 Joyce Waterhouse |
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jcwat101 Research Professional
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My letter to the Editor on the MP and vitamin D is now online and shouldn't be too hard for a doctor to get through, as it had to be fairly short: http://tinyurl.com/par2ys. It is a response to Cannell: http://www.townsendletter.com/July2008/QAonD0708.htm My longer response is at: http://www.townsendletter.com/Jan2009/vitaminD0109.htm Joyce Waterhouse PS Dr. Gaby wrote an Editorial in response to mine entitled "Is Vitamin D Bad for You?" Of course he concluded "no" but it was good to see him consider the question. I will write a reply to him that will be in the Nov. issue, as he made a few errors. |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Good work, Joyce Thanks for all your help |
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Deedee Member in Phase 2
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Joyce, I can't find you letter. I wonder if they removed it (?) as editors did my letter to Wonder Drake regarding the bacterial etiology of sarcoidosis. |
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jcwat101 Research Professional
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It's there, Deedee -- for the letter you do have to click on it a second time after clicking on the first link. If you or anyone else still have a problem, email me and let me know and I will send it to you in an attachment (jcwat101@aol.com ). Joyce |
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paulalbert Board Staff
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Here is our comments on our visit to D.C.: http://bacteriality.com/2009/08/10/iom/ Hope you enjoy. Paul |
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Deedee Member in Phase 2
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That was a very good read. Thank you very much. No D for me, thank you. |
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scooker48 Member in Phase 3
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Yup, another good read. I will d/c the dark chocolate for a while; it makes me feel so good I wonder if it is immunosuppresive. Sherry |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Chocolate is fine, Sherry. Enjoy it |
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NickBowler Member in Phase 3
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This has to be great PR for the MP rationale - an antibiotic being hailed as the next breakthrough in cancer treatment! http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601124&sid=aQRhuBEamXkU http://www.actavetscand.com/content/49/1/30 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salinomycin |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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There are other antibiotics already known for their immunosuppressive and anti-proliferative properties: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapamycin which is a generic drug, unlike the new one in the news articles above Now if only we could help people realize that IV Rocephin is an antibiotic with immunosuppressive properties. It is a good palliative, but that is its primary mode of action in the Th1 diseases... |
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Phillyguy Member
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Dr. Marshall, Tight epithelial junctions in the intestinal tract require proper VDR functioning in combination with an HDACi (histone deacetylase inhibitor), typically butyrate, which is predominately produced by bifidobacteria. In fact, the combination of the two upregulate cathelicidin expression by 2.67 fold over 1,25D administration alone.... From what we have seen in our own research, HDAC can cripple gene expression in chronic disease patients even in the presence of receptor specific agonists. Often, the receptor can be fully activated but the genes are tightly bound and can't be transcribed due to HDAC activity. DNA hypomethylation is evident in lupus, for example. High-dose HDACi administration (typically trichostatin A, sodium butyrate and valproic acid to name a few) can "liberate" many of these genes and allow them to work again.......but only in a percentage of patients. We've had success in mice for years and are now having good results in humans, but again, only in certain patients. In contemplating this issue, it occurred to me that perhaps the receptors themselves are not functioning properly, ie blocked....in refractory cases (credit your research). In a similar manner, when HDAC activity is highly upregulated, activated receptors don't work very well at all (depending upon the specific receptor and specific HDAC). Any thought on potentially adding a HDACi to later stage or refractory MP patients? The combination of a high-dose receptor ligand in combination with an HDACi could be very interesting indeed. Dr. Marshall, I seem to recall that you had indicated awhile back that you were contemplating the potential role of valproic acid in the TH1 equation. Any thoughts on my comments? By the way, valproic acid has a pretty nasty side-effect profile. Tichostatin A is a significantly better option with minimal side effects, but generally not available. One last pearl, there was a recent paper in PLOS pathogens indicating that certain intracellular analasmosis infections are rapidly cleared by administering HDACi due to upregulation of host innate defense genes. Perhaps upregulation of HDAC is another way the bugs cripple the innate immune system. My contemporaries think I'm crazy but the data is all there. Best D |
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Joyful Board Staff
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Thanks for those links Nick. From the first link... They tested the compound in mice in two ways. First, they exposed breast cancer stem cells in laboratory dishes to salinomycin and Taxol and tallied how many cells they would need to inject in a mouse to trigger a tumor. It took many more of the salinomycin-treated cells to spur cancer, showing that the compound was inhibiting cancer development, Gupta said. Still in-vitro and in mouse models, but interesting. As Dr. Marshall has reported, Emil Wirostko asserted that bacterial L-forms do infect stem cells. And some researchers have shown a bacterial pathogenesis (cause) for cancer. Then, from the Human Case Report in the Wikipedia article... The patient made a slow and uneventful recovery and was finally discharged 40 days after the original exposure. At that time, he still had very limited exercise tolerance—eg, climbing a single flight of stairs was difficult and painful. The whole case report from an inhalant exposure to the antimicrobial salinomycin should look very similar to a cytokine storm response to taking Azithromycin while on the MP. The photophobia, tachycardia, dizziness, nausea, shortness of breath, and muscle weakness perhaps being the most familiar. It will be the most obvious to those of us who have experienced immunopathology that this man most likely experienced a strong immune response to inhaling/swallowing the antimicrobial salinomycin. Last edited on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 06:59 by Joyful |
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Bane Member
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Mark Crislip's latest take on the MP http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=681 |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Ah yes, indeed, Somebody please point him to the Cancer presentation I put up last night. He can have fun dissecting that issue too I note that nowhere does Crislip dare to give a link to any of our Vimeo conference presentations LOL What I found most interesting about the Biotech (Cancer) conference in China was presentations there by mathematicians, engineers, and theoretical physicists. It was great to talk with people who were not scared to be told they were wrong, and who were capable of bouncing ideas around inside their head for a while instead of rejecting them outright. Sadly, I found that many Biologists are drifting towards the Medical modus operandi of "I will listen to you after your work has been validated." That is not the scientific method used by Planck, Einstein, Bohr, Heisenberg, and the other visionaries who created the knowledge which these folk are mangling. It will be interesting to see if there is a resurgence of physicists in biomedical research. One showed a molecular dynamics video of a molecule bouncing around on a gene-array surface. He astounded the audience by claiming that "the molecule sees its reflection in the surface as it approaches the surface." Wasn't strange to me. I learnt about charge reflection during my undergrad years. Apparently they haven't been teaching that these last few decades |
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JohnMcC Member in Phase 2 
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"I am, however, the Head of the Vitamin D subcommittee of the trilateral commission." How prestigious is that....WOW!!!! I hope it has a good pension plan when he is shown to be completely wrong and has to eek out a living peddling some other form of fad... More to be pitied than scorned.... |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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This latest article by Mark Crislip is actually such a fascinating read because it sets out in black and white the difficulties which so many 'experts' have with the concepts of theoretical science. When Niels Bohr proposed his model that all stuff was made up of atoms with electrons orbiting around them, he was proposing a model to science which was revolutionary, but one which other scientists could take, expand, and eventually get to the point where mankind was not only able to understand 'stuff', but also to design and make computer chips (for example). In 2003 we set out (and published) a crude model for the pathogenesis of chronic disease, one which is growing more and more detailed as every year goes by. From that model I derived a therapy, based on the model. Scientific models are often very useful indeed... When Crislip insists on 'verification' or 'proof' before one can expound a model for scientific refinement and examination, he is standing in the way of the very process by which all great scientific advances have been made. This latest article is actually an extremely effective treatise which demonstrates everything which I see as wrong with today's narrowly-focused education. This article is showing Mark Crislip cannot appreciate scientific discovery, it is showing the thought process of a journeyman, avidly following a set of rules. Somehow this reminds me of the story I read this morning of two New Jersey Cops arresting Bob Dylan for wandering the streets of Long Branch, NJ, just a couple of blocks from the beachside bungalow where Bruce Springsteen wrote "Born to Run." Neither of the young officers knew who Bob Dylan was, or what he had done. When Science loses touch with history - it loses its very soul. ..Trevor.. |
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Deedee Member in Phase 2
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Crislip says, "The authors then give examples of how two genes are altered by bacteria in the test tube: one up regulated, one down regulated. No argument here. When infected the body responds in a variety of ways. Genes get up regulated and down regulated. It is always a question whether these test tube phenomena are of clinical relevance or if they are lost in the complex human metabolic system. Often these effects are the equivalent of tossing a rock in the Oregon ocean and to increase the size of the waves in Hawaii." I wonder what Crislip would make of the below report (?). http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090730233519.htm Excerpt: "A recent study on human genetics on various populations across the world conducted by researchers from the Institut Pasteur and the CNRS has shown how pathogens can shape the patterns of genetic diversity of our immune system over time. Results show that bacteria, fungi and parasites, unlike viruses, appear to have allowed the introduction of mutations in the genes of some proteins of the innate immunity system, thus enabling greater genetic variability. " I am, however, more interested in what MP researchers think about this report. Last edited on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 17:12 by Deedee |
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jcwat101 Research Professional
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I think a large part of Mark Crislip's problem (besides his being closed minded and his lack of appreciation of molecular research) is his lack of knowledge in the new and/or neglected areas of CWD and biofilms (for example, the references include hundreds of papers, reviewed by Domingue, Mattman and others for CWD). Nor is he aware of hundreds of papers showing links between autoimmune diseases and bacteria, all of which make our stance far more credible than he recognizes. He also is unaware (and unwilling to give us the benefit of the doubt) that his idea of immunomodulation being able to account for the dramatic and long lasting improvements is untenable. Improvement is generally greater the longer after antibiotics are stopped for people who have been on the MP long enough, while most people experience strong exacerbations from the antibiotics. He also doesn't acknowledge that no where do we say that we do not think all of this needs further research to be proven to the world. He also didn't read all of Lewis' paper, when he says that we misused that biofilm reference regarding pulsing antibiotics (page 53 and 54): << A disarmingly simple approach to sterilize an infection was first proposed by Bigger in 1944 (REF. 1). The proposal is to kill bacterial cells with a high dose of an antibiotic, then allow the antibiotic concentration to decrease, which will enable persisters to resuscitate and start to grow. If a second dose of antibiotic is administered shortly after persisters start to grow, a complete sterilization might be achieved. This approach is successful in vitro, and a P. aeruginosa biofilm can essentially be sterilized with 2 consecutive applications of a fluoroquinolone (K. L., unpublished observations). Perhaps understandably, this approach has not been received with enthusiasm by specialists in clinical microbiology. The goal of established therapies is to maintain the plasma level of an antibiotic at a maximum concentration, in order to discourage the development of resistance. Most importantly, an optimal pulse-dosing regimen would probably vary from patient to patient. However, it seems that some patients might have inadvertently taken solving the problem of intractable persistent infections into their own hands. Individuals who suffer from persistent infections that require a lengthy therapy are often cured, but why a year-long regimen is better than a month-long one is unclear. An efficacious fluctuating dose of antibiotics administered serendipitously by the patient might be responsible for persister eradication in these cases. The patients might adjust drug dosing simply through being absent-minded, which sooner or later could produce the perfect drug-administration regimen. Curing persistent infections might therefore result from patient non-compliance. Analysing how persistent infections are cured might shed light on the likelihood of developing a rational regimen for the pulse-dosing sterilization of infection.>> Joyce Waterhouse |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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DeeDee, I had lunch with the Head of the Laboratory of Parasite Vaccinology at Institut Pasteur last Sunday (at the conference in China), and a fascinating discussion ensued. By comparison with our own work, Institut Pasteur and CNRS are still working in very conventional concepts of science, although the energy and expertise they bring to their work is remarkable. The Science Daily release is not saying that Insititut Pasteur believes that the pathogens can change human genes by interaction and mutation, but is saying that evolution allows changes (errors, if you like) to occur without Homo sapiens being harmed. This release is still talking about pretty conventional concepts. I will contact my (newfound) friend in Pasteur, however, and see if she can put me in contact with the scientists who published this latest study. They may be interested to read Amy's paper on metagenomic Microbiota |
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jlunn247 Member in Phase 3
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Who is that sadist studying prisoners in California? Why doesn't he simply admit that they are being held in an unhealthy environment. I think he or or the inmates should petition the state. And accuse that they are being cruel. Yes plenty of sunshine for the criminally insane. We could replay the scopes monkey trial. Attica! Attica! |
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Joyful Board Staff
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Jim, I will freely and publicly admit, I don't follow all of those references. Would you care to elaborate, or was that just a public post of a personal rant? It's all good. |
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jlunn247 Member in Phase 3
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If the vit d controversy is to shake up the establishment . Then why not use the argument that it is cruel and unusual punishment ? |
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jlunn247 Member in Phase 3
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Scopes monkey trial from "inherit the wind" Attica Attica is from the historical prisoner revolt about 35 yrs ago. Criminals make great "Dogs of war". |
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jlunn247 Member in Phase 3
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I didn't mean sadist as much as I meant mad scientist. |
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Joyful Board Staff
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Thanks Jim. I guess I missed some class in college... or something. |
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Peta_m Member in Phase 2 
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This research may be important http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2164/10/321/abstract Creagh |
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jcwat101 Research Professional
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That does look interesting, thanks. They say: <<The lack of evolutionary conservation in non-primate mammals suggested that this is a primate-specific adaptation. Evidence for evolutionary conservation of this regulation in additional primate lineages would provide strong evidence that the TLR2/1-vitamin D-cathelicidin pathway evolved as a biologically important immune response mechanism protecting human and non-human primates against infection.>> This further supports that we are different from mice in more than the obvious ways Joyce Waterhouse |
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Ruth Goold Health Professional
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Perhaps someone should contact Dunham Aurelius (and his doctors) to suggest he not take that vitamin D pill? Olmesartan anyone ? http://www.nature.com/news/2009/090826/full/4601071a.html Ruth P.S. Yes - good find Creagh. Very nice study. |
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Peta_m Member in Phase 2
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Ruth, Joyce, I am unable to see the actual paper, and I am but a lowly artist, but the author's page showing his research interests seem parallel to those of Prof Marshall. Adrian Gombart, Ph.D.Dept. of Biochemistry and Biophysics Oregon State University. http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/staff/gombartbio.html He states: "We made the seminal discovery that vitamin D regulates the expression of a key antimicrobial protein (AMP) referred to as cathelicidin or CAMP/LL-37." and also "Our studies revealed that regulation of CAMP by vitamin D was a human/primate-specific mechanism that was absent in mice and other mammals. To facilitate in vivo studies in an animal model, we developed a novel transgenic mouse carrying a human genomic fragment encoding the CAMP gene. This "humanized" mouse expresses the human CAMP gene in the expected tissues and is regulated by vitamin D. We will use this model to investigate the biological importance of the vitamin D pathway in maintaining a proper innate immune response toward invading pathogens, inflammation and our own microbiota. This model will provide an important experimental tool to understand the physiological importance of vitamin D in our diet and its impact on immune response." I almost did not post the link. I felt sure the Research Team would know of this work. He may be worth contacting. Creagh |
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Lottis Health Professional
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Magnus Lindskog, med dr, Dept. of clinical pharmacology, Uppsala universitet, has written an article in the Swedish medical journal this week. He asks his colleges to advise for caution about supplementing with Omega-3, while patients having the swine flu. It has been proven that it is down regulating the immune system function in dealing with viral pathogens. http://www.lakartidningen.se/07engine.php?articleId=12663 Here are the sources; 1. Byleveld PM, et al. J Nutr. 1999;129:328-35. 2. Byleveld M, et al. Clin Exp Immunol. 2000;119:287-92. 3. Kelley DS, et al. Lipids. 1999;34:317-24. 4. Alperovich M, et al. Nutrition. 2007;23:196-202. 5. Schwerbrock NM, et al. J Nutr. 2009;139(8):1588-94. |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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This scientist is terribly confused. He uses the phrase "oily fish from cold seas especially rich in omega-3 acids" and also "fish oil" interchangeably with "omega-3," apparently without realizing that there might be other components in the fish oil (such as vitamin D) which could be contributing to the immunosuppressive effect. Sigh... Thanks for the link |
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Lottis Health Professional
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I have made a comment about that, hopefully it gets published. PS. A note just now from the editor, told me my comment got published. DS Last edited on Fri Sep 4th, 2009 12:31 by Lottis |
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Wojta Member in Phase 3
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Now this I find interesting. There is an article on a czech online news server citing research of Ashley H.Robins: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/122377290/abstract If you cannot see even the abstract, short summary is: The people with whiter skin became dominant in higher latitudes not thanks to higher production of Vit.D, but because higher amount of melanin in skin of dark people causes skin to become easily damaged by frostbite. The article in Czech is here: http://aktualne.centrum.cz/veda/clanek.phtml?id=646125 The Google translation: http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=hp&hl=cs&js=y&u=http%3A%2F%2Faktualne.centrum.cz%2Fveda%2Fclanek.phtml%3Fid%3D646125&sl=auto&tl=en&history_state0= Some other very interesting articles I came across: http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2009/07/african-americans-and-vitamin-d.html http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2009/06/vitamin-d-and-homeostasis.html White skin dominant as result of sexual selection: http://pages.globetrotter.net/peter_frost61z/1994a-human-evolution.htm |
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jcwat101 Research Professional
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Wojta, Thanks for putting up those links. Here is an easier to read article for us English speakers: http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20327222.500-where-does-white-skin-come-from.html Joyce Waterhouse |
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caroldeleah Member in Phase 3 
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Perhaps this is old and has already been posted. If so, my apologies. An interesting clip here, but (disclaimer) it's only safe to follow the advice given here inasmuch as it completely complies with Prof Marshall's scientific discoveries IMO. http://products.mercola.com/multivitamin-childrens-chewables/ |
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Joyful Board Staff
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It is interesting that every bit of this 'doctor's advice is followed by a sales & marketing pitch. You don't have to read the whole article to understand that the big issues are fatalities from children eating an entire bottle of children's multi-vitamins. The killers are Iron and Vitamin D. I guess kids can die from an overdose, but adults??? His other concerns about sugar, artificial sweetners, dyes, fillers, etc. are likely to be true, but conveniently set his product apart from the competition. |
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Katezzz Member in Phase 2 
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http://tinyurl.com/nkxvcf Don't you love the "reasonable extrapolations" ? http://tinyurl.com/pg3a6j Holick's presentation on prevention of chronic disease I know he's got the low-D = cause of disease equation wrong. How would the MP counter each of his pro-D arguments? |
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jcwat101 Research Professional
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What I wrote here: http://www.townsendletter.com/Jan2009/vitaminD0109.htm I think counters the arguments I have seen so far (haven't reviewed your link). Also, see http://www.bacteriality.com articles on vitamin D. Joyce Waterhouse |
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furch Member in Phase 2
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Vitamin D Often High in Crohn’s Disease Patients http://www.onlinenews.com.pk/details.php?id=151547 Last edited on Sun Sep 20th, 2009 23:35 by furch |
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Frans Member in Phase 2
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No, "The researchers found "inappropriately high" blood levels of the active form of vitamin D" The active form of vitamin D is 1,25D. Frans |
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Sunset Health Professional
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Here's some more misinformation about "vitamin D" sponsored by Drs. Mercola and Cannell http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/09/22/Low-Vitamin-D-Increases-Flu-Death-Risk-in-Kids.aspx >>Sigh<< |
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terrylmcc Member in Phase 3
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Based on a book, SAVING SAMMY , curing the boy who caught OCD. A segment on the Today show just today, linked strep infection directly to OCD. The patient was a ten year old boy, who suddenly displayed pretty severe OCD symptoms after living a normal childhood. He began to withdraw, lost his ability to spell, speak, and exhibited the OCD symptoms. Dr Nancy Snyderman mentioned, while this case of OCD was cured with antibiotics. Other forms of mental illness could be linked to infection. But the information is too new to know for sure. She mentioned autism turrets syndrome and OCD in the segment, saying more study has to be done. I did tape a short video on my phone of the segment. I will try to download it later. but have never had luck with that. Thought it was a good thing for the MP however. Best --Terry |
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eClaire Member in Phase 2
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Thanks for mentioning that Terry. The more the public hears of the possibility that bacteria could be responsible for illness, the less weird we MPers will appear to the people who remain in our lives. (Of course I want people to get well... as well. ) Claire |
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Russ Member in Phase 3
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Here's a link to a youtube video of the segment Terry referred to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50bQtkfiHvs |
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Russ Member in Phase 3
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Interesting that seven years later the boy is now fine but says that occassionaly he will "catch" a strep infection and the OCD symptoms will start to come back and then he'll go on antibiotics and they will go away again. I'd be interested to hear what Dr. Marshall thinks of this from the MP perspective. My thought is that the initial antibiotic treatment which "cured" his OCD simply shifted things from more of an acute infection with normal strep bacteria to a chonic infection with the L-form or CWD form of strep which is less active (and thus less symptoms) but which rears it's head every once in a while. In other words, the antibiotic treatment caused the bacteria to shift from the normal/active form to the CWD/L-form. Does that make sense? |
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jcwat101 Research Professional
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Makes sense to me. Joyce Waterhouse |
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eClaire Member in Phase 2
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And anyone who can make a sensible posting on that YouTube video might be able to get the family to check out the MP, as I imagine there might be some interest in the initial postings. (E.g., a link to Trevor's vimeo or YouTube sites.) One of the things I heard that concerned me is that the mother mentioned that her son hadn't had colds and the like, and while that might mean good health, for many of us who have rarely been "sick" with viruses have ended up becoming disabled her saying that raises some concern. So that potentially in addition to the use of antibiotics in a way that might be creating CWD and heightening problems later. Claire Last edited on Fri Sep 25th, 2009 23:56 by eClaire |
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ChrisMavo Member in Phase 2 
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A very intriguing video clip indeed! I have some skeptical friends and family members who think I am crazy for doing the MP... who among us does not have that? I have sent this video to all of them AND to my neurologist who is not convinced that a bacterial infection is causing my ALS! It is a sad commentary that many people will not believe something until it is endorsed by the mainstream media ... like NBC! In so many cases these stories do NOT get reported in mainstream media at all. Thanks to that enlightened doctor who treated him with antibiotics and to Dr Snyderman for getting his story on NBC! I too will be interested to hear Dr Marshall weigh in on this topic. I also suspect the bacteria have probably gone into CWD form due to the antibiotic treatment. This might cause this young man problems down the road. Especially if he supplements with tons of vitamin D like most people now are being advised to do! Chris Mavo |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Most antibiotics are immunosuppressive. That statement was made several times during the Singapore Conference. I have video from that conference, but it was so high pressure, so much was packed into the three days, that I probably will not be processing anything but the most important presentations. Anybody who is not experiencing immunopathology is not defeating the intraphagocytic metagenomic microbiota. There is no way you can clear pathogens out of the cells without the risk of losing cells to physical destruction, apoptosis and phagocytosis. And losing cells will necessarily generate immunopathology. That is the message we need to communicate, and we will be focusing on getting that out during the Ljubljana conference next May, where the Foundation will be organizing a special session titled "Translation from Bench to Bedside." If you know anybody who might be able to donate to help us mount that effort, which will take a significant part of our budget, I would appreciate help in letting them know how much their contributions will be appreciated. ..Trevor.. ps: There is a PayPal button at the top of this page and info for larger donations is here |
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healingjason Member in Phase 3
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terrylmcc wrote: ... About 8 or so years ago now, it was first suggested to me by an ‘alternative’ Australian GP specialising in treating children’s mental illness (ASD, ADD etc) that my son’s autism was caused by streptococcal bacteria which could be successfully treated with herbal 'antibiotics', among many other nutritional therapies (including omega 3s which we know now to be contraindicated for treating Th1 illness). She was aware of the condition Sammy had, namely, PANDAS (Paediatric Autoimmune Neuropsychiatric Disorders Associated with Streptococcus) and thought ASD might have a similar cause because the stools of children in her care were found to contain abnormal faecal bacteria and specifically many streptococcal species. The idea then, which still has some currency I suspect, is that the gut can harbour bacterial pathogens and these can impact the brain function. This therapy did not help my Jason whose faecal bacteria were especially grossly abnormal, in terms of harbouring streptococcal species. I looked at this science and lab work very carefully and, to my knowledge, the streptococci found in the stool were not the species that cause PANDAS. I dropped this therapy and moved on to the mercury theory of autism and its attendant chelation therapy. I recall in discussions at the time with this doctor a brief mention of L-forms, which I had never heard of before, nor did I take much interest in these as a potential cause of ASD until many years later when I first heard of the MP. This doctor also invited Garth Nicolson to Australia to talk on his work with mycoplasma and autism way back in about 2000 I think. Years later, I found others in Australia pursuing this line of thought and they were getting children tested for antibodies to the PANDAS strep species and, if positive, were treating them with penicillin. I did not follow this up for financial and other reasons. Prompted by this thread, I have now Googled and found these people have an extensive website promoting their treatment at http://www.adhd.com.au. I wonder if any or many of their ASD patients test positive to the PANDAS bug. I again took upon the idea that bacteria may be driving my son’s ASD, firstly, by resuming an interest in Garth Niclcoson’s work, many years later after chelation therapy failed to help my son, despite years of conscientious efforts. So now here I am trying the MP to treat my son’s autism. How I would love to write a book like ‘Saving Sammy’! John |
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jlunn247 Member in Phase 3
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Can I get a witness? Heck yea I concur.!!! My foster brother was in the womb when his mom got chicken pox. He underdeveloped and was born with one kidney blind in one eye and a club foot mentally retarded and autistic and only given a slight chance to survive his first year. that was 1974 we Adopted him at 13 months. Now he is on the board of directors for the the local a.r.c. chapter. and works 2 part time jobs.I cant wait to tell his doctors to try the mp. |
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Hogan Member in Phase 3
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John, My daughter Grace was a perfectly normal full term baby. From an early age she developed repeated bouts of strep throat and at 18 months developed Scarlet Fever. After each of the bouts of the early years of strep throat she ended up with a few days of neurological issues such as muscle twitches etc which were so subtle that I didn’t connect the dots at first. It usually happened around the Christmas holiday and I just correlated it with excitement for the holidays. Then one summer when she was seven years old within a span of two days she went from a perfect gifted child with superior intelligence and physical abilities to a child you would assume had turrets’, OCD, mania, physical aggression, and physical limitations all in once. She had no fever and no outward signs of sickness. The doctors were baffled. I did some research on the National Institute for Health (NIH)’s site and Pub Med and came across the new concept of PANDAS. At the time the NIH was looking for participants to do a study for PANDAS. This was before PANDAS was an actually diagnosed disease. I contacted the head researcher and discussed the symptoms etc. Having a mother’s intuition and a research background I asked my local doctor to do a strep culture on her regardless of the lack of physical signs for an active strep infection. The rapid strep was negative but I urged them to send out the sample and do a full culture. After two days they called to say the culture was positive for strep. By this time her symptoms were out of control. Thankfully the pediatrician I was using was open to new ideas. He told me that at the time the main children’s hospital in the area, which is one of the best in the country, didn’t believe in PANDAS, but he did know of an independent pediatric neurologist who did do some research in the area and he would help me contact him. We treated her with the antibiotics (Amoxicillin). At first her symptoms got much worse. I had been warned by the neurologist that this would happen. I was asked to put her in the NIH study, but declined because it was a double blind study and half the kids were getting a placebo not antibiotics. I knew in my heart this was a bacterial issue and convinced the doctor to treat her long term with antibiotic therapy and mimic the study. The NIH researcher spoke with him and let him know the dose etc they were using. After a while things started to settle down and the old Grace slowly came back to us. What is interesting is that Grace was so intelligent and verbal she kept a notebook at seven to communicate to me and others what the journey was like. After two years I took her off the meds with little side effects. Today she is what the doctors would consider a normal healthy pre teen. As her mother I know differently and know that the bacteria probably just switched to l form. When she is sick (as she is now with swine flu) some of the issues come back but nothing like they were before. I will treat her with the MP at some point but I am fighting my battles these days one at a time and have two other children who need it more. So I am picking my battles with what little energy I have these days. Below is an excerpt Grace wrote for a friend of mine who treats Autistic children with PANDAS. Since most of these children do not speak it was a comfort for the parents to go inside the mind of a child with PANDAS and see what they are thinking and why they do the things they do. I don’t think she would mind me sharing it with you: My name is Grace and I am eleven years old. I had PANDAS when I was seven years old. I had my first bout of strep throat when I was only 18 months old. It was really bad and my temp was over 104degrees. I went downstairs and I was pretending to pick things off the wall with my fingers but I didn’t know I was doing it and there wasn’t anything there. The main things that I was doing were: 1. Licking poles- because I had to know what everything tasted, felt like and looked like. 2. The beach was difficult for me because there was so much going on there. The sand was my biggest problem because it is rough but smooth and tiny and it’s everywhere. 3. I felt like a message was coming from my brain telling me and urging me to touch or lick things and I didn’t notice it. I just had no control over myself and my actions. It seemed completely normal to me. Most times I tried to be normal and myself but when there were things that had a lot of texture and colors I had know what they felt like and tasted like etc. When my mom first took me to find out what was going on I didn’t want anyone touching me and looking at me like I was some kind of show. Since I didn’t know what I was doing when I would lick things, I didn’t see anything that was wrong with me. Nothing seemed out of the ordinary to me. So I didn’t like when they would do strep tests which they did a lot or blood tests. Nothing like that. I just wanted to be left alone. A month or so later they figured out what was wrong with me and my mom explained what was going on. I still didn’t like to get blood tests or strep tests, but I understood more why they had to be done. I didn’t like going to the doctors or anything and having them tell me what I should do because no seven year old really pays any attention to that. I was okay with my mom giving me ideas like: squeezing a ball or having a water bottle when I felt like licking something. When I wanted to touch something I would squeeze the ball with my fist or just squeeze my fist. I also tried having a tic tak in my mouth most of the day so that I could just keep it in my mouth to lick that instead. What worked best for me was just time. It took time for me to get better and I still didn’t like the fact that they had me taking antibiotics and the fact that if I didn’t take them I had no control. I didn’t like having to rely on the antibiotics. I didn’t like having no control. Until I was nine I took the antibiotic every day twice a day and I hated it. Just like I knew that it would take my mom a while for her to get better, I knew that it was going to get better eventually. Now I have no more urges and I have complete control of my actions. Even when I was sick and they were trying to figure out what was going on I was still aware of my surroundings and what people were saying, what was going on, everything you are aware of I was aware of too. Hope this helps in some way. Karen |
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Lottis Health Professional
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Thank you so much Grace, for sharing this with us. It opens a door for many people around the world! I wrote a PM to your Mum to thank her also. I have another good news and it is from the Euopean Journal of Heart Failure. A research team from Holland, are making the following conclusion:
Last night there was a comment in the news in TV and Radio in Sweden, from a Professor, informing us about that the specialists have started to look in the backmirror and therefore lost hope in the omega 3 supplements, when it comes down to prolonging your life and prevent heart and artery diseases; http://nyhetskanalen.se/1.1240538/2009/09/30/omega_3_hjalper_inte_hjartat http://www.sr.se/webbradio/webbradio.asp?type=db&id=891167 Edited and added link to Washington Post, citing this Professor; http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/aug/31/study-exercise-better-for-some-heart-patients/ Last edited on Thu Oct 1st, 2009 11:57 by Lottis |
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Lottis Health Professional
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This is so groundbreaking that I will have to make a separate post for this link. Here is the press release that came two days ago, about fish oil consumption, from the ESC Congress 2009. No major role for fish' in heart failure prevention http://www.escardio.org/about/press/press-releases/pr-09/Pages/fish-not%20major-heart%20failure%20prevention.aspx?hit=DontMiss /Lottis |
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healingjason Member in Phase 3
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Hogan wrote: John, ...As her mother I know differently and know that the bacteria probably just switched to l form.
...Even when I was sick and they were trying to figure out what was going on I was still aware of my surroundings and what people were saying, what was going on, everything you are aware of I was aware of too. Thanks Karen for these insights. My Jason likes (this is understating it, he seems compelled) to taste, lick and touch things as a way of literally 'coming to grips' with the world around him. I have thought about it as dog-like in that he is trying to understand the things around him by using the simple tools or senses he has available to him. Without language I think he needs to more directly 'feel' the world and the things in it. Some would call Jason's abnormal need to taste, touch and feels things as symptomatic of a condition called 'sensory integration dysfunction' which I have touched on from time to time on the AUTISM thread. I have never had Jason tested for PANDAS strep and I will explore this a bit further in case it is this that is driving his autism. It would be great if you could elaborate on how many ASD children you know of who have PANDAS and whether their medicos consider it is the PANDAS strep that is driving their ASD? I would expect most MPers would see strep throat as a co-infection and that L-form pathogens are causal for most cases of ASD. Also, I understand amoxicillin to be contraindicated for treating ASD as this would cause more bacteria to change into more virulent l-forms. Indeed, perhaps wrongly, I have understood penicillin therapy for an ear infection to have precipitated my son's rapid descent into autism when he was unwittingly over-prescribed amoxicillin at just 20 months of age. I would be reluctant to commence a course of amoxicillin before I have exhausted the potential for the MP to work for Jason. I think it more likely that his pathogenic metagenomic microbiota are not the streptococci that cause PANDAS but are other microorganisms which, one day, may be shown to cause ASD and to be treatable with the MP which does not include using penicillin. However, I have an open mind and if I feel I have tried the MP for long enough then I would need to consider whether PANDAS strep might be relevant. I am therefore very interested if you can enlighten us all on how many PANDAS sufferers have ASD and which comes first. I have this understanding, correct me if I am wrong, that most cases of PANDAS occur in children at ages greater than when most toddlers regress into autism before age 3 years. In other words, some other pathogens have got to them first before strep throat arrives on the scene. I note your daughter caught her strep throat at an age much older than when most children are diagnosed with ASD. John |
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Hogan Member in Phase 3
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It would be great if you could elaborate on how many ASD children you know of who have PANDAS and whether their medicos consider it is the PANDAS strep that is driving their ASD? John, I am not sure out of her practice how many of the children she treats have both conditions. There seems to be quite a few because she is always calling me to send her a new copy of the letter. From speaking with her I get the feeling most of her PANDAS Autistic kids were exposed to Beta strep during birth. She does not believe that Strep causes Autism but does believe that Vit D has a lot to do with it. I will say that many of her autistic kids struggle with all varieties of strep as well as other pathogens and she believes they are coinfections. She has been treating autistic kids for about 15 years with a very unique approach which I won't elaborate here partly because it is too hard to explain and sounds too science fiction and this is not the place to discuss. However, although she could always improve the kids she could never cure them. After we met and I started researching the MP I was convinced it was the missing link for her and her autistic kids. She recently told me of a story of two identical twins she is treating one which is severely autistic and one who is only mildly ADHD but otherwise appears normal. They are teenagers now and their case was always a mystery to her. The child with severe autism has normal loads of heavy metals in his system and the one who is only mildly ADHD has severe loads. It always confused her why the one with lower loads was the autistic one and the other was not as most of the time she saw a high correlation with heavy metals and autisim. After our discussion she had the mother of the twins test the boys d levels. The boy with the high heavy metals but only mild ADHD had what is considered a more normal D125 value but the autistic boy had a very high D125 value. To her this was the misslng link she had been looking for. So I believe the MP is the right course for you to take for Jason. Time will tell if there is other issues involved with ASD but at least my friend is convinced that the VDR and vitamin D are a huge part of the equation. Regarding Grace's case and PANDAS. She started getting strep at about one year of age. Her PANDAS didn't get diagnosed until 7 but there were signs all along I just didn't know what I was looking at. We only treated her with amoxicillian because at the time it appeared to be the cure and is the recommended choice for strep. It may have just caused the bacteria to change form but I don't care because at least it gave her back to me and at that point I had no other choice. Either way she will be cured with the MP in the next few years but we are taking one child at a time. If you want to PM me I can give you more information on my friend and her unique approach for dealing with ASD. Karen |
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healingjason Member in Phase 3
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Hogan wrote:
Our discussion got me thinking about the concept of a PANDAS disease state. I gather we MPers do not believe in the idea of ‘auto immune’ disease in the sense of an overactive immune system body mistakenly destroying heath cells manifesting in disease symptoms like those observed in PANDAS sufferers. I think the idea behind the PANDAS disease concept is that an excessive immune response in some children to strep throat bacteria somehow causes the immune system to target healthy brain cells when the strep bugs are present. I presume we MPers would we see the PANDAS disease symptoms as being caused by pathogens living in brain cells and by an immune system struggling to destroy these pathogens because of VDR incompetence. PANDAS is just another Th1 inflammatory disease with a pathogenesis that has nothing to do with an ‘auto immune’ response to certain species of streptococci and that the best way to overcome such a disease state would be to treat it with the MP which I gather is now happening for Grace. I find it puzzling that amoxicillin can cause PANDAS symptoms to subside as such a treatment protocol would be seemingly contradicted according to MP principles and would be more likely to lead to the development of more pathogenic L-forms and a more profound disease state. I do not know how amoxicillin is given and for how long. I gather it is given to ‘calm down’ the immune system which starts to go awry when strep throat symptoms are present and that it is given from time to time when PANDAS symptoms emerge in association with a sore throat. Perhaps the MP would lead to the permanent elimination of PANDAS symptoms and there would be no need for amoxicillin to be given to treat later episodes which might the risk the causation of more profound neurological symptoms as bacteria develop into L-forms. Seems like the amoxicillin worked well for Grace. Moderators might like to transfer this discussion to another thread or a new thread dealing with PANDAS. I will PM you Karen on the heavy metals stuff as soon as I can John |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Many antibiotics suppress the innate immune system. When used in a human being. they behave quite differently from in a petrie dish. Some are routinely used as immune suppressants in chronic disease, Rocephin, Amoxycillin, Minocyline are all in that category. Mino is only effective for us because of the sub-inhibitory dosing we use in the MP. As for autoantibodies, they result from an overactive adaptive immune system. When the bacteria get inside the phagocytes there is a cytokine release signaling to B cells (and T cells) that something is wrong. The plethora of antibodies which are subsequently generated include some that attack human proteins, as well as target pathogens. At the Autoimmunity conference in Singapore a number of autoantibodies were identified that are known to be primarily targeted at specific pathogens. There is just a little "collateral damage" Just about all antibodies are "polyspecific" - they attack more than one target. Indeed, it is very difficult for drug companies to make monoclonal antibodies which target only a few (hopefully only one) target. Amy's presentation in Beijing discussed this issue in some detail: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGe9UTQJdHM I hope that helps |
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TikBitten Member in Phase 3
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Hello all- About 6-8 weeks ago a link was posted in one of our discussion groups on the topic of childhood ear infections. Specifically, a European doctor that resorted to using syringes of "good" bacteria to combat the biofilming "bad" bacteria by injecting them into the outer ear of his patients. The net of it was the children he treated resolved and returned to general states of being happy and healthy. CAN'T seem to find it, anyone know where this link is hiding out on the MP website? Thanks much, TB |
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terrylmcc Member in Phase 3
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HI all, Was watching Dr OZ today. He had 3 morbidly obese women on his show. And took them all over to what he calls the "Truth Tube". all 3 weighed between 260 and 300 lbs. The comment that got me today was when he was explaining that all 3 of them have low vitamin D. He said that fat stores vitamin D. And steals the vitamin D from our body. I was floored. Anyone on the MP here would know the real reason. But now he's telling them all they need more vitamin D. Ugh Maybe it will be on Youtube somewhere? Best Terry |
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thelymelight Member in Phase 1 
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Here is an article that appeared in the October issue of the Toronto area health magazine called "Vitality" Dr. Zolton Rona (who is actually a very reputable complimentary M.D. in Toronto) discusses alternatives you can take in place of the flu & H1N1 vaccines. Interestingly, he & others recommend high doses of Vitamin D, which they state is a natural antibiotic, that works against every type of microbe (viruses, bacteria, fungi and parasites). Here is the article in full: http://www.vitalitymagazine.com/oct09_pg32feat I always get confused when I read articles about the many benefits of taking Vitamin D…This is what I would like to know: “Is what these experts and Endocrinologists stipulate and recommend about Vitamin D “accurate” for individuals who don’t have a TH1 inflammatory conditions…but not accurate for those of us with Th1 diseases? and "If Endocrinologists whose specialize in bones etc, suggest Vitamin D is so good for us for reversing different diseases….How come they don’t know about or agree with Dr. Marshall's work which states the opposite?" "Surely if Endocrinologists such as Dr. Veith in Toronto, who recommend Vitamin D for reversing all sorts of disorders, they must have (or there must be out there) research or studies that show or prove, taking Vitamin D is good for certain people?" So I don’t understand how there can be such opposite opinions on this subject…..Can anyone explain this to me? Here are some quotes from the article: On the other hand, vitamin D appears to be far more important. Vitamin D has strong antibiotic properties and some studies indicate that optimal blood levels will prevent the flu far better than those toxic flu shots. Ever wonder why some people are more prone to colds and flus? One study indicates that the incidence of upper respiratory tract infections is inversely correlated with vitamin D blood levels. The lower the vitamin D blood level, the higher the likelihood of infection. This confirms an observation that I have made on numerous occasions with my private practice patients. Each year I see the infection rates rise during the winter as vitamin D levels plummet, and each summer the exact opposite occurs. I have definitely found that those of my patients who have 25 (OH) vitamin D levels of 175 nmol/L or higher get few, if any, colds or flus during the winter. I have also found that I need to bump up the supplement recommendations to 10,000 IU of vitamin D3 per day in both the winter and summer to achieve such levels in the majority of the people that supplement with vitamin D. HIGH DOSE VITAMIN D THERAPY You might be shocked to know that there are many physicians in both Canada and the United States who prescribe as much as 50,000 IU of vitamin D daily as a treatment for a long list of chronic diseases. I first learned about high dose vitamin D therapy from one of Dr. Norm Shealy’s newsletters (http://www.normshealy.com). Dr. Shealy is the author of several books and the founder of the American Holistic Medical Association. As Dr. Shealy relates, “Recently I had the good fortune to spend a couple of hours with Dr. Joe Prendergast, an endocrinologist / diabetologist (http://www.uncommondoctor.com; http://www.endocrinemetabolic.com). He has managed over 1500 diabetic patients, and in the last decade not one of his patients has had a stroke or heart attack. Only one has even been hospitalized! His secret – 50,000 units of Vitamin D3 daily. Dr. Joe further reports: · Reversal of advanced coronary disease • Reversal of advanced lung disease, avoiding a lung transplant • Cure of multiple sclerosis • Cure of amyotrophic lateral sclerosis • Regression of rheumatoid arthritis • Improvement in allergies • Control of many cancers including prostate, breast, colon, brain tumours, leukemia, myeloma, etc • Reversal of osteoporosis • Prevention of influenza • Cure of depression and many other mental disorders • Cure of Hashimoto’s Thyroiditis Dr. John Cannell, head of the Vitamin D Council, recommends such high doses for quickly getting rid of a cold or flu, but has not advocated such high doses for regular daily use. One of the problems with taking such high doses of vitamin D is the effect it may have on calcium, namely the deposition of calcium in the arteries and organs. Apparently, this is not such a problem if you aren’t also taking high calcium doses as a supplement. In any event, if any reader decides to do this, make sure that blood tests are done every three months to check calcium levels. One thing you don’t want is kidney stones or hardening of the arteries. Dr. John Cannell, MD, suggests high-dose vitamin D (50,000 IU) be consumed for three days at the first sign of a cold or the flu. If you have an infection, the truth is you need more vitamin D. That’s a given. In other words, vitamin D acts as a natural antibiotic. It works against every type of microbe (viruses, bacteria, fungi and parasites). Vitamin D deficiency is common during the winter months, especially in countries far north of the equator. Vitamin D acts as an immune system modulator, preventing excessive production of inflammatory cytokines and increasing macrophage (a type of white cell) activity. Vitamin D also stimulates the production of potent anti-microbial peptides in other white blood cells and in epithelial cells lining the respiratory tract, protecting the lungs from infection. Vitamin D is not a vitamin, but a steroid hormone precursor, which has profound effects on innate immunity.
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ChrisMavo Member in Phase 2
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Dear lymelight, I just read your post.. and I too have been confused by such arguments for the benefits of vitamin D! It seems there is not a day that does not go by where I do not see an article or some Dr on a show touting it's myriad benefits. And many of my family and friends think I am nuts to LOWER my vitamin D levels on the MP. And it HAS given me pause to consider whether they could be correct ... BUT.. then I realize that for YEARS I took at least 6,000 IU"s of vitamin D every day... and large doses of pharmaceutical grade Omega-3 fish oil ... along with high doses of all kinds of so-called healthy supplements (vit C, minerals, CoQ10, etc.)! And after all that ... I STILL GOT ALS! So when I read Dr Marshall's alternative theory of how too much vitamin 25D actually suppresses the bodies innate immune system... I was convinced he was correct the more I studied it! I would guess that some of the claims of vitamin D "preventing" someone from catching the flu or a cold, is actually just the suppression of that person's immune response to the infection. They do not get the typical symptoms of the cold/flu.. but the infection is still there.... probably transforming into L-form, or cell wall deficient bacteria to make them sick years later, as they pop their vitamin D capsules! It is hard for most people to accept the fact that so many alleged EXPERTS can be so wrong. But, if they were right, how could I have gotten ALS while taking high doses of vitamin D like the "experts" advised me? And, furthermore, how is the MP having such fantastic clinical results these past years by LOWERING vitamin D levels! I think the verdict is in on Dr Marshall's breakthrough discovery.. vitamin D suppresses the immune system... but does NOT prevent infections! I'll leave the scientific explanations to Dr Marshall and others on here that are infinitely more qualified than I. But, I just had to write my 2 cents worth ... especially when I read that one of the doctors you quoted claimed that high dosage vitamin D cures ALS... what a sick joke for those of us with ALS! Chris Mavo San Francisco |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Amy and Paul have written an article on Bacteriality which might be helpful in understanding why so many people could make such a terrible error. You can find it at: http://bacteriality.com/2009/08/10/iom/ Paul and Amy gave testimony before the Institute of Medicine, National Academy of Sciences in Washington. And none of the 'experts' were able to laugh them out of the room. That's a sobering thought, isn't it Enjoy! |
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thelymelight Member in Phase 1
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Thanks Chris and Dr. Marshall for your replies.. I will read the link you provided. Cheers |
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jcwat101 Research Professional
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This article goes into some of the studies, including the evidence on flus and colds: http://www.townsendletter.com/Jan2009/vitaminD0109.htm Joyce Waterhouse |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Joyce, Sorry I missed that excellent Townsend article. I have added it to my master URL list |
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Rajabesar Health Professional
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Hmmmm. Dr Marshall's master URL list! Is that posted anywhere? |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Most papers and presentations are listed at: http://TrevorMarshall.com/papers.htm Here is a list of URLS alone: Recent Papers: http://autoimmunityResearch.org/preprints/BlaneyAnnals2009Preprint.pdf http://autoimmunityResearch.org/preprints/ProalAnnals2009Preprint.pdf http://autoimmunityResearch.org/preprints/WaterhouseAnnals2009Preprint.pdf http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/preprints/AR-Proal-Metagenome.pdf http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/preprints/AR-Albert-VitD.pdf http://www.townsendletter.com/Jan2009/vitaminD0109.htm http://TrevorMarshall.com/BioEssays-Feb08-Marshall-Preprint.pdf http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/preprints/BioEssays-May08-Response-preprint.pdf http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/preprints/BioEssays-May08-letters.pdf http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673606695093/fulltext http://www.tbiomed.com/content/3/1/1 Recent Transcripts: http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/transcripts/CMBF_2009_Dalian_Transcript.pdf http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/transcripts/Prague_2009_MP_Transcript.pdf http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/transcripts/Prague_2009_Science_Transcript.pdf http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/transcripts/WCG2008_Keynote_Transcript.pdf http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/transcripts/WCH_2008_seminar_transcript.pdf http://autoimmunityResearch.org/transcripts/ICA2008_Transcript_TrevorMarshall.pdf http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/transcripts/ICA2008_Transcript_TomPerez.pdf http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/transcripts/ICA2008_Transcript_AmyProal.pdf http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/transcripts/ICA2008_Transcript_GregBlaney.pdf http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/transcripts/metagenomics2007.pdf http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/transcripts/dmm2007-harvard.pdf http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/transcripts/dmm2006-karolinska.pdf http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/transcripts/marshall_aaem_2006.pdf http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/transcripts/marshall_bio21_2006.pdf http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/transcripts/recovery_lax2006.pdf http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/transcripts/waterhouse_lax2006.pdf http://www.autoimmunityresearch.org/transcripts/arasaki_jssog_2006.pdf |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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New study out, apparently: "1 in 5 kids get little vitamin D, study says" http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hyaIB59PGCPPIn68oExCukmgPLPAD9BIIQN83 Sigh... |
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Ron Member in Phase 2
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The Standing Committee of European Doctors (CPME) said vitamin D deficiency was a “huge problem” that affected 50 per cent of Europeans, and so fortification measures were necessary. http://www.nutraingredients.com/Regulation/EU-doctors-back-elderly-vitamin-D-fortification/ This is the result of the work by Roger Bouillon and Paul Lips in Bruges. The actual European Policy Document is here: http://cpme.dyndns.org:591/adopted/2009/CPME_AD_Brd_241009_179_final_EN.pdf Last edited on Sun Nov 8th, 2009 00:24 by Ron |
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