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| Moderated by: Dr Trevor Marshall | ||
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Joyful Board Staff 
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In the past, members on the Marshall Protocol have eaten yogurt for various reasons including wanting to get enough calcium or finding it helped keep the gut issues on an even keel. But now with the push for increasing D supplementation and the concerns brought up by recent research, should we revisit the 'benefits' of eating yogurt? Do we need to read the labels and sort out clues that it may contain hidden D? Or even more daunting, do we need to be cautious about the strains of bacteria added as the 'culture' in that harmless looking goo? |
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Joyful Board Staff
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cwylie1 wrote (moved from another thread): Hello all, |
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Joyful Board Staff
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Hi Carol, That's interesting, the Stoneyfield Farm organic whole milk (plain) container in my fridge doesn't list any vitamin D. I tried looking it up on their site and the label matches the one I have here. OUR FAMILY RECIPE: CULTURED PASTEURIZED ORGANIC WHOLE MILK, INULIN, PECTIN. CONTAINS: SIX LIVE ACTIVE CULTURES INCLUDING: L. ACIDOPHILUS, BIFIDUS, L. CASEI, AND L. REUTERI. One cup serving: Vitamin A 8%, Vitamin C 0%, Calcium 45%, Iron 0%, Thiamin 8%, Riboflavin 25%, Vitamin B6%, Vitamin B12 15%, Pantothenic Acid 8%, Phosphorus 25%, Magnesium 6%. http://www.stonyfield.com/OurProducts/WholeMilkYogurt.cfm |
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Joyful Board Staff
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ShrnHml wrote (moved from another thread): The regulations of each state on adding Vit D are different. That means that I could get D-less Stoneyfield Farm organic whole milk here in Missouri, while a neighboring state may have to add D. Or vice versa. |
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Joyful Board Staff
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Dr Trevor Marshall wrote (moved from another thread): Sharon, |
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Joyful Board Staff
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Markt9452 wrote (moved from another thread):
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Joyful Board Staff
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Dr Trevor Marshall wrote (moved from another thread): Also, my third slide for China notes that Lactobacillus and Bifidobacteria produce petides which act directly on human Angiotensin Converting Enzyme (ACE). |
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Joyful Board Staff
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Looking more closely at the probiotic issue I read from here, this:The exclusive blend of natural probiotic cultures in our yogurt includes the premium probiotic Lactobacillus Rhamnosus. By definition, yogurt must include the starter cultures Lactobacillus bulgaricus and Streptococcus thermophilus. Other major-brand yogurts include one or two additional cultures. But we add four more probiotic cultures to all our yogurts: L. acidophilus, Bifidus, L. casei, and L. rhamnosus. So, how much of that is 'live' when we eat the yogurt? I don't know. |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team 
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There is an definitive paper (from FDA authors) describing fortification in the US and Canada at URL: http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/80/6/1710S.pdf |
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Joyful Board Staff
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Wow. It is so sad how much effort the authors of this study put into determining how much supplemental Vitamin D the average person is getting from their food. If only they could understand the relationship between chronic disease and low serum levels of 25-D is the opposite of what they have been lead to believe. Then they could write papers about how to normalize serum levels of 25-D by treating the chronic diseases causing them! ... oh yeah right, that's what you are doing ...  |
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Markt9452 Member in Phase 3
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We could verify from the manufacturer, in writing, that a product is D free and have it certified, so to speak, by the ARF as "No D added". There could be a list of certified safe products on the website and once this no D added thing takes off it might even generate some revenues.  -D |
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Joyful Board Staff
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Mark, that would be wonderful. |
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Afternoon Tea Member in Phase 3 
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Joyful wrote: Looking more closely at the probiotic issue I read from here, this: It is very alive! We use whey from yogurt (that is the liquid part of the yogurt that drains when the yogurt is suspended in cheese cloth - the remaining curds are the cream cheese) to add to cabbage to make homemade sauerkraut. It is not necessary to add because if you use enough salt the sauerkraut will still ferment, but adding the whey makes for a less salty and more consistent product. |
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Toni D Moderator 
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I do not know if this bit of information from "Foods to Avoid" would be helpful, but I used it as a guideline when I first started the MP in making adjustments to my diet. "Dairy products should be free of added Vitamin D, and contain no more than 6% of Vitamin A. : 6% of Vitamin A restriction is only used as a guideline to suggest that a product might also be fortified with Vitamin D and not labeled as such. eg. not referring to carrots." For me, if a dairy product has more than 6% Vitamin A, I just assume it contains Vitamin D and refuse to purchase it. Either I find something within the guidelines or do without. Simple. It's better to be safe than sorry  . |
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Joyful Board Staff
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Afternoon Tea, Wow. You can make sauerkraut? That is one trick I haven't quite figured out just yet. Toni, Yes, I remember that guideline too. 6% is a normal amount of A for dairy I guess. So, what about this concept that Dr. Marshall has brought up? Can we know exactly what a normal, healthy human gut really is like? Is zero bacteria the proper goal? Or what? |
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Markt9452 Member in Phase 3
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Also, my third slide for China notes that Lactobacillus and Bifidobacteria produce petides which act directly on human Angiotensin Converting Enzyme (ACE). I think I could use some more info about this... What about the cheese? It has bacteria too. Any volunteers for a bacteria free diet? |
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jlunn247 Member in Phase 3
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It seems like the American mind is lacking a dose of common sense. When did this lack of digestive enzymes start to occur? Was it before Jamie Curtis started to promote activia? Or was it before starting to eat an average of 120 lbs of mozzarella cheese a year? |
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eClaire Member in Phase 2 
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This always happens to me...someone else is eating my cheese! (And my fast food, drinking my beer, etc. How do people consume these products!)Come on guys.  The yogurt gives me a change up in my morning diet ... I don't eat it every day and when I do, a couple of table spoons on granola (no bad stuff added). But if Dr. Marshall says yogurt ought to be booted out of my diet, THEN, I will boot it. In the meantime, I cannot afford to obsess.  (Not saying anyone else is obsessing. Obviously, we have different levels of energy here on the MP and some have more time than others to investigate and make their diets better. Right now, for me, I'm trying to just get the energy and appetite to put food in my mouth.)I'll be interested to see where this thread leads, as I too wonder about "the yogurt thing" (meaning the sense of putting it in my body). Claire Claire |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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I eat cheese by the boatload. Imported Canadian, Australian or Danish. Blue (Rosenburg, King Island), sharp cheddar and Havarti. I never really liked yogurt, so I have no experience with that. In general, I would be more concerned about Vit D creeping into yogurt than I would be about the bacteria in it. In any case, it is reasonable to expect that the GI tract of anybody on the MP should be cleaned out of persistent bacteria. Does a load of probiotics in the Yogurt overload the immune system? Heck, I don't know... |
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eClaire Member in Phase 2
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Good. I'm glad you don't know Dr. Marshall and so I shall continue to consume my yogurt in moderation, which is less often than I consume cheese, which I consume once or twice a day. I'm glad to hear you eat Blue and the folk who would warn me off of mold (supposed mol allergy) raise their eyes when I mention my purchasing some Danish or French blue cheese every now and again. Claire |
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jlunn247 Member in Phase 3
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How much Mozzarella . Most of it is not actually mozzarella. lots of binders and cow hormones though. |
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geneartemenko Member in Phase 2 
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Claire, Try FAGE 2% Greek strained yogurt http://www.fageusa.com or any good supermarket. I love it. No vitamin D, no probiotics I spoke with customer service. Happy T-DAY weekend Gene |
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Knochen Moderator
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Trevor, I've got some speculations on yogurt and "bacterial food" in general, and your input would be appreciated. Given that: A. Our gut biota is reduced by consumption of antibiotics throughout the MP. B. We take a limited amount of antibiotic. Does it not follow that we should strive to keep our gut biota load as low as possible to get the most out of our abx dosing? Here's my reasoning. The abx will bind to whatever bacteria it finds. Once bound, it stays put. Since we are taking the abx orally, it would seem reasonable that there would be a lot of gut bacteria that would bind up the abx before it could even get a chance to get into the bloodstream and to the tissues where we really want it. "Supplementing" the gut biota through yogurt or probiotics would just offset the efficacy of the abx, at least to some extent. (I'm ignoring the other immunomodulatory effects of probiotics in the gut that were discussed elsewhere) Also, when these gut bacteria die, be they pathogens or "friendly" yogurt bacteria, would that not induce a herxheimer reaction? If so, increasing the gut biota load would seem to be counterproductive. Why herx for no gain? If my suppositions above are correct, then the low carb approach makes a great deal of sense. Why feed the existing gut biota so they can reproduce? It seems like we would be pouring water into a bucket we wanted to empty. Obviously it's going to be a running battle between bacterial reproduction and elimination, but if the abx is being diverted to gut biota, and the herxheimer reaction is being generated in a large part due to the gut biota rather than the CWD being killed, it seems like we should make every effort to reduce "spurious" bacteria of all kinds, whether through supplementation or simply "feeding the bugs". Does this make any sense? |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Does it not follow that we should strive to keep our gut biota load as low as possible to get the most out of our abx dosing? Absolutely. Also, reducing the gut bacteria will reduce the load on the innate immune system there. when these gut bacteria die, be they pathogens or "friendly" yogurt bacteria, would that not induce a herxheimer reaction? The cytokines and chemokines (IP) come primarily from the intra-phagocytic metagenomic microbiota, not from isolated bacterial organisms in the gut. |
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Cold Feet Member in Phase 3
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Interesting discussion. I’ve always been interested in the ecosystem of the GI tract, though I don’t pretend to know anything about its complexity. I know that we are not mice, but I found the following article interesting: 'Border Patrol Agents' In The Gut Identified By UT Southwestern Scientists http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/132274.php |
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Markt9452 Member in Phase 3
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Scientists Required to Re-Think Idea of Core Microbiome in Human Gut - GEN News Highlights A team of researchers at Washington University in St. Louis has characterized the human gut microbiome by sequencing the microbial communities of adult twins and their mothers. They report that the study invalidated the hypothesis that a uniform human gut microbiome exists at the level of bacterial species. Instead, the results demonstrated that common metabolic functions yield a gut microbiome that is carried out by communities varying greatly in exact species composition across individuals. When comparing lean and obese twins, the researchers found further that deviations from this core functional microbiome were associated with the differences in physiologic states. The study also revealed significant differences in genes associated with nutrient metabolism. Using the Genome Sequencer FLX System, the investigators found that individuals from the same family had more similar bacterial communities than unrelated individuals. The immense microbial diversity found across all individuals forced them to reconsider the hypothesis of a core microbiome based on the relative abundance of bacterial families. Instead, common functional categories of genes and metabolic pathways were consistently found across all samples, implying that a variety of bacterial species can perform the same metabolic functions. The article appears online in the November 30 issue of Nature. |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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I had the opportunity to meet Jeffrey Gordon, and his colleagues from Washington University (St Louis) at the Metagenomics conferences. http://rpvss.ucsd.edu:8080/ramgen/calit2/metagenomics/gordon.rm They still don't fully comprehend the significance of our intracellular Th1 microbiota, but they are slowly getting there. This paper holds a wealth of information, and should help dispel the pragma of the body being a sterile compartment (currently driving modern clinical medicine). |
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Phospheros Member in Phase 3 
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Joyful mentioned the Show me state in her example. For the benefit of those in my home state of Missouri . . . We have some rather conflicting laws on that... My understanding of our present laws: Milk that is fat modified and produced in Missouri and intended for distribution within the state of Missouri has to be fortified under Missouri law. Milk that is not fat modified does not have to be fortified, but sometimes is. Milk intended for cheese production does not have to be fortified, but sometimes is. Milk produced in other states that is not fat modified can be sold here in the unfortified state, and as well as whole milk which is homogenized. With the exception of raw milk, of which I only know of a handful of farmers who sell directly to the public, most milk produced in Missouri is fortified. Raw milk can be sold in Missouri, but it has to be direct from the farmer, and there is considerable red tape involved. There is a farmer who sells raw milk at the Clayton, Missouri farmers market on the weekends for roughly 7/gallon. You can freeze it can store it for a couple weeks without really changing much about it, but once you thaw it in the fridge, have to treat it like you would any other milk product (make sure you date it and use it within 10 days of thawing). So it is possible to stock up and make only a monthly trip there for milk if you prefer raw milk and are willing to take a very small risk of listeria. I have come across a couple examples of organic non-homogenized milk for sale in Missouri without fortification. This is the kind of milk where the cream rises to the top and you have to shake it. It has always been produced somewhere else. Cream as well as Half & Half does not have to be fortified in Missouri, even if it is produced here. Very little of it is, and most of them tell you when it is, usually its a safe bet it isn't. Yogurt, Cheese, and Ice cream do not have to be fortified in Missouri. However, since the WTO changed the definition of ice cream to be closer to ice milk, many of the ice cream makers use milk instead of cream, some also include eggs. Even if you don't see high A on the label, they still may be made with fortified milk. You have no way to know if the ice cream you are getting is made with fortified milk or not other than to try it and see if you get a reaction. (They don't list the fortification of ingredients on the label, just the ingredients). The same ice cream that is safe for a person in Illinois may not be safe for a person on the MP in Missouri. Most of that is made & distributed locally, and its up to the maker in the individual state to decide what type of milk they will use. [Finding real ice cream made with only cream is a very difficult task.] Its a somewhat frustrating state of affairs, but I have come across milk from other states which is fine, several ice creams which are fine, we have a local cheese company named Hautly which will work with you to find products in their catalog which are safe (nice owners, very helpful) We really need to crab at the legislature to get D content listed on the label. (Though I suspect the move would lead to even more companies to start fortifying their products.) |
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