The Marshall Protocol Study Site Home

Search
   
Members

Calendar

Help

Home
Search by username
   Not logged in - Login | Register 


Culturing Bacteria during MP
 Moderated by: Dr Trevor Marshall  

New Topic

Reply

Print
AuthorPost
LeAnne
Member


Joined: Thu Apr 21st, 2005
Location: Augusta, Georgia USA
Posts: 795
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Tue Nov 29th, 2011 18:33

Quote

Reply
Because the bacteria causing these diseases are intracellular and extremely tiny, we know that they are tedious to detect and to culture. With Benicar in place and the immune system functioning better, are the pathogens easier to detect/culture while on the Marshall Protocol than they would be if not on the protocol?



____________________
Neuro-Sarcoidosis/lungs, spleen, nervous system, skin lesions, 125D66, MP 8/05, Ph1 3/06, Ph3 7/06, NoIRs, low lux home, cover up, 25D9 Sep07
edj2001
Member


Joined: Tue Oct 18th, 2005
Location:  Allen, Texas USA
Posts: 347
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Thu Dec 1st, 2011 06:26

Quote

Reply
LeAnne,

I have been working in the Biotechnology Lab at Collin College on a personal project related to my observations of E. coli when treated with sub-inhibitory concentrations of the beta lactam antibiotic, Cefsulodin.  What I saw was that E coli cells continued to divide but were unable to form a septum resulting in long filaments of cell wall material (peptidoglycan) that included the membrane cells inside.

 The forming of the septum is one of the last steps in the prokaryote cell division pathway. So when the cell is disturbed by a sub inhibitory beta lactam antibiotic concentration, the membrane cells actually will form inside the filaments but the cell cannot divide (form the septum to divide). Some of these membrane cells were able to burst out of the filaments and I later observed what appeared to be cell division of these membrane cells. 

In this experiment, it was the osmotic pressure of the medium that the cells were grown in that determined if they could expand and burst out of the filament.  Membrane cells have no wall to confine them so they will expand or contract based on the osmotic pressure of the environment they are in.
 
 Last March I presented this hypothesis as a poster at the Texas Academy of Science and I have included my abstract below.  I continue to work on this project and plan to present a paper once I have confirmed my observations.

This doesn't answer your question but maybe it can add some information to the problem of L form bacteria.  If you want more information on this experiment send me a PM.

 Gene

 ABSTRACT
 Inhibitory doses of beta-lactam antibiotics are often prescribed to treat infections caused by gram negative bacteria.  These antibiotics interfere with formation of the bacteria cell wall preventing cell division.  However little is known about bacteria cell morphology when exposed to sub-inhibitory concentrations of these antibiotics.  Transient sub-inhibitory concentrations may occur over time within different areas of the patient’s body as the drug concentration changes relative to dosage and timing.  These experiments demonstrate that under low antibiotic conditions, there are significant morphology differences in E coli compared with normal prokaryote growth.  Filaments form indicating that the antibiotic is inhibitory to septum formation, but not cell division.  The cell wall continues to grow, forming a filament, and appears to stop growing in a dose-dependent manner. This results in multiple protoplasts within a cell wall filament.  These growing cells eventually break out from the peptidoglycan shell becoming independent “cell wall deficient” cells also known as “L form” bacteria, which are capable of autonomous division.  We are investigating the ability of these “L form” membrane cells to revert back to the parent cell wall morphology.  These “L forms” may play a role in persistent chronic infection in humans.  We have demonstrated that the “L form” of  E coli can be induced by low dose cefsulodin.  Future studies will investigate the nature of this dimorphism.
 



____________________
Sarc98 A.Fib uveitis sk cancer basal/melanoma colon tmr bladder tmr bph| propafenone Armour proscar Guaifensin | 1,25D=50 10/05| 25D=7 4/08| =9 2012 Gene's Story| avd l&D|
LeAnne
Member


Joined: Thu Apr 21st, 2005
Location: Augusta, Georgia USA
Posts: 795
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Thu Dec 1st, 2011 11:32

Quote

Reply
Hello, Gene. I was beginning to think my question was a semi- ignorant one...:cool:Thank you for your response. I recently had my blood cultured in order to see if I could determine what pathogen(s) I may have. I remember Lida Mattman's presentation calling these L forms "Cell Wall Divergent" bacterias. I purposely have been off antibiotics for around 16 days. I didn't know if or what difference it would play in detection of these bugs. I just assumed that because the MP helps the immune system "recognize" these bugs, that they would be "easier" to detect through the culturing process......IDK. Good luck with your project. :)

LeAnne



____________________
Neuro-Sarcoidosis/lungs, spleen, nervous system, skin lesions, 125D66, MP 8/05, Ph1 3/06, Ph3 7/06, NoIRs, low lux home, cover up, 25D9 Sep07
Dr Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff


Joined: Sat Jul 10th, 2004
Location: Thousand Oaks, California USA
Posts: 11928
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Thu Dec 1st, 2011 11:39

Quote

Reply
LeAnne,
99% of microbes in the Human microbiome cannot be cultured outside the human body*. They have to be detected by DNA sequencing techniques, and even that is very hard to do. Anybody who is charging money to find out what microbes you have in your microbiome is most probably breaking the law, as FDA has approved no tests or labs capable of performing this service.

FDA recently took criminal action against a physician and a researcher who were telling their patients that their 'testing' could isolate disease-causing organisms. I don't agree with FDA's selective approach, but I do agree with them trying to stop the financial rip-offs being foisted upon unsuspecting patients...

..Trevor..
 
* Source: Human Microbiome Conference, Vancouver, 2011.
 

LeAnne
Member


Joined: Thu Apr 21st, 2005
Location: Augusta, Georgia USA
Posts: 795
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Thu Dec 1st, 2011 16:27

Quote

Reply
Doctors order blood cultures all the time.....I have never heard of this being illegal.....How else do they determine if a person has an infection or fungus? We know not all diseases produce antibodies....

LeAnne

 



____________________
Neuro-Sarcoidosis/lungs, spleen, nervous system, skin lesions, 125D66, MP 8/05, Ph1 3/06, Ph3 7/06, NoIRs, low lux home, cover up, 25D9 Sep07
Dr Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff


Joined: Sat Jul 10th, 2004
Location: Thousand Oaks, California USA
Posts: 11928
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Thu Dec 1st, 2011 18:41

Quote

Reply
The acute pathogens which are available for Doc to routinely/legally test are very limited. There is close to zero percent chance that any one of the pathogens Doc can place on an order are actually making you chronically ill :)

Additionally, trying to treat small titres of viral and fungal pathogens can actually make you quite sick, as the drugs which are available for Doc to do that are often ineffective, and profoundly affect the proper operation of the human body (side effects).
 
I am not saying that acute infection shouldn't be tested for, I am saying it needs to be done with a full understanding, balancing the positive effects of any 'curative' acute therapy against the possibility of it making the chronic disease worse :)
 

LeAnne
Member


Joined: Thu Apr 21st, 2005
Location: Augusta, Georgia USA
Posts: 795
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Thu Dec 1st, 2011 23:14

Quote

Reply
I do not feel a need to do any other protocol. I certainly will not do anything which will suppress my immune system. I simply want to know what is making me ill. My original question was whether or not being on the MP would make detection/culturing easier.........

LeAnne



____________________
Neuro-Sarcoidosis/lungs, spleen, nervous system, skin lesions, 125D66, MP 8/05, Ph1 3/06, Ph3 7/06, NoIRs, low lux home, cover up, 25D9 Sep07
Dr Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff


Joined: Sat Jul 10th, 2004
Location: Thousand Oaks, California USA
Posts: 11928
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Thu Dec 1st, 2011 23:19

Quote

Reply
Being on the MP should make no difference. Please understand that cultures only turn up the acute pathogens, while the persistent microbes causing chronic disease remain hidden in your white cells :)
 
If the tests discover any acute infections, then please post the details so we can look at the titres, which are the important parameter in folk with chronic disease... Your immune systems are not going to be killing all the microbes in your body, the immune systems have been weakened by the chronic disease :)
 

LeAnne
Member


Joined: Thu Apr 21st, 2005
Location: Augusta, Georgia USA
Posts: 795
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Fri Dec 2nd, 2011 11:19

Quote

Reply
"Please understand that cultures only turn up the acute pathogens, while the persistent microbes causing chronic disease remain hidden in your white cells"

Because my immune system is actually targeting the intracellular pathogens, wouldn't they be able to detect them as they are "giving up the ghost" or leaving the cell?

LeAnne



____________________
Neuro-Sarcoidosis/lungs, spleen, nervous system, skin lesions, 125D66, MP 8/05, Ph1 3/06, Ph3 7/06, NoIRs, low lux home, cover up, 25D9 Sep07
Dr Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff


Joined: Sat Jul 10th, 2004
Location: Thousand Oaks, California USA
Posts: 11928
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Fri Dec 2nd, 2011 13:06

Quote

Reply
With DNA methods you might be able to detect fragments of genomes, but you are unlikely to be able to culture any viable organisms.
 

Daki
Member
 

Joined: Wed Dec 16th, 2009
Location: Bratislava - Neighbourhood, Slovakia
Posts: 176
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Wed Dec 14th, 2011 19:08

Quote

Reply
This is very interesting debate and is near my question /consideration that I would like to inquire already longer time.

Can cwd-form of bacteria/ the intracellular bacteria change back to spirochetas form? And for which circumstances?
What is happening when one cellula, which feast bacteria/bugs, is ending its life? Can the bugs escape? 
Is known a literature about this? Something was decribed in "The top 10 * lyme disease treatment".

Daki



____________________
lyme boreliosis since 2002 + allergy,1-abx since sep.09,2-abx since dec.09,3-abx since apr.11,2-abx since jul.12,0-abx since mar.13, 25D=26 XI.06-09, 25D=20 II.12-10, 25D=11 VI.28-10, 25D=8 I.14-11, 25D=8.76 X.19-11, 25D=3 IV.24-13.
Dr Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff


Joined: Sat Jul 10th, 2004
Location: Thousand Oaks, California USA
Posts: 11928
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Wed Dec 14th, 2011 19:38

Quote

Reply
Daki,
No book has been published which might help you understand the intraphagocytic microbes which cause chronic disease. Indeed, important papers describing them are still coming out every month or two.

Sadly, it still take s a considerable amount of expertise to piece the whole picture together. The simplistic notions of "CWD" and "Spirochetes" are no longer very useful. The communities of microbes making up the microbiome are not necessarily even whole genomes, as they share many functions with the other species in the microbiota. They exchange genes at a very fast rate, and they have an amazing ability to persist, even when their host cells die.

The video of optical microscopy I show at many conferences gives you some clues, with the long polymer filaments being thrown out of the exploding cell, so as to infect other cells.

I really don't have time to chase down all the papers on this. I can think of half a dozen or so which make up the keystones. Each is only a small part of the puzzle.

Fairly readable articles can be found at:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110921120056.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110316161918.htm

the fulltexts of these papers are helpful, too:
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/334/6053/249.abstract
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2982.2011.01765.x/abstract
http://jmm.sgmjournals.org/content/60/12/1717.abstract

and of course there are a stack of other important papers which Bane, and the others, can help you find.  The current understanding is built on a composite of all these, we haven't written a paper formally bringing it all together...

..Trevor..

ChrisMavo
Member


Joined: Sun Aug 2nd, 2009
Location: San Francisco, California USA
Posts: 858
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Wed Dec 14th, 2011 22:48

Quote

Reply
I wonder if something similar to what is described in the article about Toxoplasma gondii  is what happens in the pathogenesis of ALS?

It seems this parasite is capable of manipulating the immune system so it can survive in the brain and even alter behavior.  As part of my ALS I have profound changes in my emotions and moods now.   



____________________
PLS/ALS, speech difficulty, dizziness, leg weakness, overly emotional, Ph1Aug2609,11/2012 25D-12, 11/11: 25D-10, 04/11: 25D-11, 07/10: 25D-13, 05/10: 25D-15, 11/09: 25D-20, 9/09: 25D-27, 7/09: 25D-38, 1,25D-46, Mod Ph2Oct09, 100mg Mino
Dr Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff


Joined: Sat Jul 10th, 2004
Location: Thousand Oaks, California USA
Posts: 11928
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Wed Dec 14th, 2011 22:54

Quote

Reply
 Chris, that is how the bacteria interact with the cells they live within - the Interactome is huge, essentially imponderable. And in your case it has profoundly affected neurological function, in other members different functions have given way first. Take a look at my Singapore video again :)

That is why it is important to watch the rate at which the dysfunctions spreads to the systemic organs, where it hit most of the rest of us so hard...
 

ChrisMavo
Member


Joined: Sun Aug 2nd, 2009
Location: San Francisco, California USA
Posts: 858
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Wed Dec 14th, 2011 23:09

Quote

Reply
Thank you Dr Marshall.  I guess the important question here is: Are there pathogens that are so highly virulent and evolved that even fully activating the VDR will not eradicate them?  The only way to find out the answer to that question is to carry on and see what happens.  I think it is clear that the MP is quite effective for Sarc, CFS and many chronic diseases ... but how it works for some of the neurological diseases like MS and ALS is not that clear yet.  I for one, intend to find out if it will work for ALS!!! :D 



____________________
PLS/ALS, speech difficulty, dizziness, leg weakness, overly emotional, Ph1Aug2609,11/2012 25D-12, 11/11: 25D-10, 04/11: 25D-11, 07/10: 25D-13, 05/10: 25D-15, 11/09: 25D-20, 9/09: 25D-27, 7/09: 25D-38, 1,25D-46, Mod Ph2Oct09, 100mg Mino
Dr Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff


Joined: Sat Jul 10th, 2004
Location: Thousand Oaks, California USA
Posts: 11928
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Thu Dec 15th, 2011 08:08

Quote

Reply
Chris, the diagnosis doesn't matter - that is just Man trying to put a label on the dysfunction. It is the dysfunction which is important.

Sue Lyons reported today, one of several early adopters now out of wheelchairs. Have a chat with her about the timelines she saw :)

..Trevor..
 

ChrisMavo
Member


Joined: Sun Aug 2nd, 2009
Location: San Francisco, California USA
Posts: 858
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Thu Dec 15th, 2011 08:21

Quote

Reply
Thanks Dr Marshall!  I was just wondering if there may be some pathogens or mixture of pathogens that can defeat even a olmesartan-activated immune system.   Sorry for being so negative as I try very hard to stay positive and optimistic.  But it is hard mentally to watch your health fail so completely like I have the past two years.  Believe me I KNOW the MP is the only game in town that has a good chance of returning me to health!  :D

I will check with Sue and find out what her timeline was like. 



____________________
PLS/ALS, speech difficulty, dizziness, leg weakness, overly emotional, Ph1Aug2609,11/2012 25D-12, 11/11: 25D-10, 04/11: 25D-11, 07/10: 25D-13, 05/10: 25D-15, 11/09: 25D-20, 9/09: 25D-27, 7/09: 25D-38, 1,25D-46, Mod Ph2Oct09, 100mg Mino
Daki
Member
 

Joined: Wed Dec 16th, 2009
Location: Bratislava - Neighbourhood, Slovakia
Posts: 176
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sat Dec 17th, 2011 17:44

Quote

Reply
Thank you, Dr. Marshall, for your insight and the time that you take my question.

Maybe 30-50 years, people will be able effectively to defend themselves, if the technique and science will make progress.

But hope dies last, not bacteria.
All the best for your research.
Daki



____________________
lyme boreliosis since 2002 + allergy,1-abx since sep.09,2-abx since dec.09,3-abx since apr.11,2-abx since jul.12,0-abx since mar.13, 25D=26 XI.06-09, 25D=20 II.12-10, 25D=11 VI.28-10, 25D=8 I.14-11, 25D=8.76 X.19-11, 25D=3 IV.24-13.

 Current time is 18:23



* We can help you understand chronic disease, but only your physician is licensed to give you medical care *

Powered by WowBB 1.7 - Entire site Copyright © 2004-2010 Autoimmunity Research Foundation, All Rights Reserved
Click here to view our PRIVACY POLICY
Page processed in 0.1719 seconds (17% database + 83% PHP). 18 queries executed.