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Frans
Member in Phase 2
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Posted: Wed Oct 5th, 2005 21:03 |
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Dr Marshall,
I have been engaged in discussions about what is responsible for ME/CFS.
I know dr Wright has convincing evidence that Borrelia is the culprit.
But ! I keep hearing that mycoplasmas play an important role, so I just did a search here on MP.com and found this statement in the simple explanations:
Cell wall deficient pathogens of various species ([highlight= #ffff88]mycoplasma, borrelia, coccoid, L-form and others.
Is this correct? Are mycoplasmas just other CWD forms that therefore will be eridicated by the MP?
I cannot believe I missed this. Sorry to occupy your time like this.
Sincerely, Frans
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Burn-out/nervous breakdown Jan01 125D 48 25D8.48 Ph1Nov06 ModPh2Jan07 Ph2Apr08 Cipramil Seroquel NoIRs lite exp r/t work cover up 25D3.9(Oct07)
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Aussie Barb
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Posted: Wed Oct 5th, 2005 21:10 |
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Frans
see the highlighted post here says in part - Sarcoidosis is a systemic disease that can affect any part of your body. It is caused by cell wall deficient pathogens of various species (mycoplasma, borrelia, coccoid, L-form and others). These pathogens are able to sequester themselves safely inside phagocytes (large white blood cells in the body's immune system which are designed to engulf and digest foreign invaders) instead of being "digested" (killed) by the phagocytic cells that ingested them.
You can resolve all your symptoms of sarcoidosis with the Marshall Protocol. <<
Barb ...
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Barb: Dx Inflammatory Disease Endocrine Imbalance 2003| Depression| 24+ years not Dx| MP Aug04| ABC of MP| MP Search|
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Frans
Member in Phase 2
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Posted: Wed Oct 5th, 2005 21:16 |
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Barb,
Thank you. That is exactly what I quoted 
I will take your word that this indeed means that mycoplasmas are also taken care of.
All best to you !
Sincerely, Frans
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Burn-out/nervous breakdown Jan01 125D 48 25D8.48 Ph1Nov06 ModPh2Jan07 Ph2Apr08 Cipramil Seroquel NoIRs lite exp r/t work cover up 25D3.9(Oct07)
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Jvancan
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Wed Oct 5th, 2005 21:36 |
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It is caused by cell wall deficient pathogens of various species (mycoplasma, borrelia, coccoid, L-form and others)
Mycoplasma is always CWD isn't it? Borrelia can change from Spirochete to coccoid to L-forms wright? Maybe Dr. Marshall knows this exactly.
Mycoplasmas are found by Garth Nicolson at the incidence of ~50% of RA, ~60% of CFS and ~70 of FMS. But if I repeat dr. Marshall's words. The pathogens you detect by lab-tests are mostly co-infections.
Andy Wright finds his borrelias really swimming in the blood of fresh blood of the patients. So this is quite exciting indeed. I qoute what W. Burgdorfer said: "It's a hell of a bug, and a shame it god my name on it".Last edited on Wed Oct 5th, 2005 21:53 by Jvancan
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Lyme 125D69 25D32 Ph1May 06 Ph2July06 Ph3Dec06 break Mar07 to Jan08 25D12.6Jan08 NoIRs occ lite exp Ph1Jan08 Ph2Apr08
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Wed Oct 5th, 2005 21:49 |
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The problem is actually a lot more complex than it seems. The genome of Borrelia has about 40% of its genes on mobile plasmids, and not on the primary chromosome. So (arguably) there could be hundreds of different versions of B.burgdorferi out there.
If you look at the master Genome list at URL
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/genomes/lproks.cgi
you will find only two Borrelia species fully sequenced. One was sequenced by TIGR and one from Germany. Look at the sizes - 1.52 vs 0.99
This is because the Germans are only reporting the Chromosome and 2 plasmids, while TIGR is reporting chromosome and 21 plasmids.
Unfortunately the Borrelia genome has proven too complex for many of our institutions to fully assimilate, and this is an excellent example. Both groups are correct, but they are looking at the species in different ways.
A similar situation exists within the Mycoplasma species. Look for example, at this species comparison:
http://tinyurl.com/bqlem
The rapid pace of advance in science's knowledge of the genome has left 99.9% of our Infectius Diseases specialists behind. It will take a new generation to come along who can understand the new genomic tools
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Jvancan
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Wed Oct 5th, 2005 21:58 |
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The genome of Borrelia has about 40% of its genes on mobile plasmids, and not on the primary chromosome. So (arguably) there could be hundreds of different versions of B.burgdorferi out there.
Dr. Marshall thanks for coming in and providing some links (though they are quite complicated  ).
But what does this mean for example for running tests on Bb?
If you would detect Bb in a patient, do you need 100-test then?
And the borrelias Dr. Wright has found, are they likely "number one bad guys" or rather co-infections in your opinion?Last edited on Wed Oct 5th, 2005 22:00 by Jvancan
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Lyme 125D69 25D32 Ph1May 06 Ph2July06 Ph3Dec06 break Mar07 to Jan08 25D12.6Jan08 NoIRs occ lite exp Ph1Jan08 Ph2Apr08
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Aussie Barb
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Wed Oct 5th, 2005 22:03 |
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for Lyme Info see comprehensive info
LYME/BORRELIOSIS
Definition, symptoms, transmission, testing, treatment
Barb ...
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Barb: Dx Inflammatory Disease Endocrine Imbalance 2003| Depression| 24+ years not Dx| MP Aug04| ABC of MP| MP Search|
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Wed Oct 5th, 2005 22:19 |
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Hmm. Well, Andy Wright has found pleomorphic bacteria, but they are not necessarily Borrelia Burgdorferi. It is hard to guess how much of the DNA of the pleomorphs maps to Borrelia. Indeed, one of Andy's patients had the same-looking pleomorphs, but did not flourescent-stain at all for Borrelia
The reason that we have had success with the MP is that we realized early on that there were many species involved in Sarcoidosis. Borrelia, Propionibacteria, Mycobacteria and Rickettsia have all been isolated with PCR from sarc patients. So we had to design a therapy based not on the microscopic observations, but on the way the bacteria exert their damage upon the immune system.
It turned out that all Th1 diseases seem to have a similar multi-family mix of pathogens. We are almost certainly dealing with inter-species mutants.
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Dogster
Member in Phase 3
| Joined: | Mon Jan 24th, 2005 |
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Posted: Thu Oct 6th, 2005 07:59 |
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Dr Marshall,
given the fact that CFIDs/lymies are a good year behind the progress of sarcies, and yet both apparently (to my lay understandning) have the mix of borrelia and myco and others, and the inter-species mutants as well as the multi family mix, what is it about the disease process of cFids/lymies that slows their progress.?
And are you sure MP will resolve this, albeit slower (I take that to be around the 18 month timeline)????????
Is it known how exactly the diference in how the bacteria exert their influence on the immune system in CFIDS/lymies? And why are you quite certain it will reverse this disease process although be it a slower time line?
Sorry for so many questions, but these are natural for us!!!!!!!!
Thanks again. Dog
P.S. This is a gem of a website, and a great public service.
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CFS lyme RSD: pain migraine| tylenol fioricet flexeril tramadol temazepam| acidoph guaif/cold| Q| Cut D/exp Feb05| NoIR Mar05| June05 Comm Beni Q8H| July05 mino| Jan06 PH2| Aug06 1,25D=29 25D=17|
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Thu Oct 6th, 2005 08:13 |
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Dog,
Maybe it is because they ask so many questions
I think that, in general, CFS and Lyme patients have had more long-term intervention from supplements and pharmaceuticals than many of the sarcies. Additionally, their disease is not as apparent as, for example, Lupus or Sarcoidosis, and this means that they generally are more ill before they get help. A sarc patient, for example, may die of pulmonary insufficiency or cardiac arrest before their overall systemic organ status degenerates to that of some of the CFS and Lyme patients.
I don't think there is any fundamental difference in the species, however. I myself suffered from debilitating fatigue for almost a decade, and had to work my life around my unusual sleep and rest patterns. It was seeing that fatigue in the Diabetes patients (whom I was researching) that first made me realize the common threads through all the Th1 diseases.
I do think it is important that CFS and Lyme patients do face up to the extent of their illness, however. Think about this - it takes 2 years or more for the bacteria to be killed, at the fastest rate your body can kill them. It is absolutely amazing what that quantity of bacteria must have been doing while they were living in your tissues
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Dogster
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Posted: Thu Oct 6th, 2005 08:42 |
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Dr Marshall,
THANKS, this is VERY clarifying and helpful. I cant tell you how much!!!!! I think EVERY CFSer/lymie should read your above post. And I think it should help dispell the doubt/ lack of compliance for those of us on the MP. We need realistic expectations of the progression AND an understanding of the process to hang in there. It's easy to want to "jump ship" and go to one of the other protocols where one might feel better faster, but not really dealing with the underlying disease process. For those of us so very ill (and many of us realize this although it is validated by so few docs or society) and for so long, 20 years or so, an extra year here or there on MP is really nothing to FRET about IF one has the correct UNDERSTANDING. I realize for younger people, still trying to juggle life and careers in there, and still holding to old notions of pushing one's self, over-exertion in exercise, etc., its a bit of a different story and harder to do.
Thanks again! Dog
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CFS lyme RSD: pain migraine| tylenol fioricet flexeril tramadol temazepam| acidoph guaif/cold| Q| Cut D/exp Feb05| NoIR Mar05| June05 Comm Beni Q8H| July05 mino| Jan06 PH2| Aug06 1,25D=29 25D=17|
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GeorgeinRollaMO
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Posted: Thu Oct 6th, 2005 10:12 |
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Thanks, Dog, for suggesting that all borreliosis sufferers should read this thread.
I wholeheartedly agree!!!
Dark Vader (aka, George)
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Borreliosis:7/14/04--125D=57,25D=61. Ben 9/1/04. Mino 10/5/04. 4/13/05--125D=58,25D=43. 8/17/05--125D=52,25D=36. April 06=125D=38,25D=29. 8/29/06--125D=37,25D=29. June 07 25D=23. Oct31'07,25D=19.
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Mary
Member
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Posted: Thu Oct 6th, 2005 15:51 |
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Being a Lyme/RA sufferer for 20+ years, I have to say that this thread hit home. Thanks for the info, Dr. Marshall...quite a thought that it will take 2+ years to rid myself of these pathogens.
Time to "quit asking questions" and get to work!
Mary
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Not MP: Chronic Lyme RA. Been ill for 22+ years 8/04 tests D25 47,1,25D 39,CRP 3.3 high.. Benicar for BP only.
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GeorgeinRollaMO
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Posted: Thu Oct 6th, 2005 16:47 |
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Mary,
Don't think of the two years ahead. Think of how bad the last twenty years were, and the next two years will seem like a pittance to pay for an additional twenty years, or more, of good health to come. 
Dark Vader (aka, George)
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Borreliosis:7/14/04--125D=57,25D=61. Ben 9/1/04. Mino 10/5/04. 4/13/05--125D=58,25D=43. 8/17/05--125D=52,25D=36. April 06=125D=38,25D=29. 8/29/06--125D=37,25D=29. June 07 25D=23. Oct31'07,25D=19.
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catlady
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Thu Oct 6th, 2005 19:19 |
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Dr. Marshall,
I really do appreciate your frank statement about the seriousness of CFS/Lyme. Having good information on how long to expect it to take for recovery is essential in order to sustain the motivation to work through the protocol.
Fortunately I have never wavered in my commitment to the MP. However, before I started, I did somehow convince myself that after 4 to 6 months the worst would be over and I would be starting to feel better.
Instead I am over 9 months in and it's just been recently that I am starting to feel anywhere close to my pre-MP level. And I was very sick then, and certainly no longer in denial about how ill I was. I had already spent 15 years doing the working around sleep and rest patterns, as you describe, in order to function enough to work. Then even that strategy failed over the past 6 or 7 years...
Now I am really starting to feel that things are improving. But herxing is still strong. The difference is that in between herxing there is definite improvement, that earlier on I did not feel.
So, I am happy to know at this point that 2 or 3 years is a realistic estimate. Now I have a trip planned at 17 months out, and I hope I'll be able to do it. Fortunately I can reschedule for later in the year if I have to. At least I know eventually *I will make it*.
Thank you so much for all your hard work.
Catlady
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CFIDS 25+ yrs dx'd 2001; chronic pain, migraines; 11/04 25D=21, 12/04 1,25D=48; 5/05 25D=23 1,25D=54;12/05 25D=10 1,25D=37;3/06 25D=10 1,25D =20;6/07 25D=6 1,25D=26;4/08 25D=<4; 12/05 Beni 40mg Q4-6H; Mino 1/05; Mod PH2 5/05; PH2 1/07;Z+C+D3/07 Gabape
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