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Aunt Diana
Moderator
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Posted: Sat Nov 26th, 2005 17:02 |
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| What are the rules about wine and alcohol on the MP? Are they counterindicated? With the holidays coming up and I'm about to start the protocol I would like to hear about people's experiences. Thank you.
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Lyme 1987, neuro cardio fatigue achiness brain fog depression, anxiety. Pacemaker, D.1,25 32; D <5; 12/07 <6, hydrocodone, lorazapam, benedryl, zantac, colase, Noirs, cover-up or avoid sun, house <30lux. Feb 08 Phase 3. 6/08 D <4, D1,25
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Aussie Barb
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Posted: Sat Nov 26th, 2005 19:11 |
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Diana
See these threads for other members experiences with alcholol tolerance on the MP:
Alcohol consumption
Alcohol intolerance
Dr. Marshall has said
"Alcohol consumption does not affect therapy. Unless you are really sensitive to D intake (and some are), beer should be OK. I have a glass of plum wine every few days, and sometimes a little brandy, so I doubt that a little alcohol with your minocycline is going to make you explode in a puff of smoke, or anything like that."
Barb ...
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Barb: Dx Inflammatory Disease Endocrine Imbalance 2003| Depression| 24+ years not Dx| MP Aug04| ABC of MP| MP Search|
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Aunt Diana
Moderator
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Posted: Sat Nov 26th, 2005 19:28 |
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| Thanks, Barb. I'm planning to start Benicar tomorrow. Want to clean up the house and get everything ready, including a freind to spend a few nights with me while I adjust. I am so excited!!
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Lyme 1987, neuro cardio fatigue achiness brain fog depression, anxiety. Pacemaker, D.1,25 32; D <5; 12/07 <6, hydrocodone, lorazapam, benedryl, zantac, colase, Noirs, cover-up or avoid sun, house <30lux. Feb 08 Phase 3. 6/08 D <4, D1,25
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FeatherRiver
Member in Phase 2/3
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Posted: Mon Nov 28th, 2005 22:57 |
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I would be careful - I had the worst attack of migraine after consuming a half glass of white wine - I have found my sensitivities to wine (I don't drink beer or hard stuff) increased dramatically doing the MP - also my husband and another I know doing the MP (she gets really sick the next day)
] also have developed a greater sensitivity to MSG - really makes my heart beat faster and chest pain - ate some apple pie that had a list of ingredients in it that was 2 inches long! Same thing - I threw out all my spices with MSG and read the ingredient lists more.
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DianaF:CFS,Fibro,RA since childhood, Dysautonomia
VitD 22/33, 7-04,Started Ben.MP 5-04 Ben 40mg q6h + Mino 100mg q48h + Quer as needed, Phase II Started Jan 15, 05 Ben 40mg q4h stopped mino and Z temp 2/22/05
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Aunt Diana
Moderator
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Posted: Tue Nov 29th, 2005 01:48 |
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Thank you for your concern. I will take it very easy, although, I must admit I was glad to hear Dr. Marshall doesn't think it's counterindicated. This is all so very individual, one has to be very alert to what's happening in your own body.
Best luck and health to you.
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Lyme 1987, neuro cardio fatigue achiness brain fog depression, anxiety. Pacemaker, D.1,25 32; D <5; 12/07 <6, hydrocodone, lorazapam, benedryl, zantac, colase, Noirs, cover-up or avoid sun, house <30lux. Feb 08 Phase 3. 6/08 D <4, D1,25
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BARNEY
Moderator
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Posted: Tue Nov 29th, 2005 22:22 |
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FeatherRiver, (and Aunt Diana),
The reason people with MCS have trouble with wine is because it is always made with sodium metibisulfite. That is in a lot of processed foods too (especially in coconut products). It is said that it keeps color and freshness nice. It also makes some people have breathing problems, hives and various other problems. Please BEWARE of ingredients. 
This is not in hard liquor (that I know of) and I am not sure about preservatives in beer.
Hope this helps!!
HANG IN THERE, WE WILL MAKE IT!!! BARNEY
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64jointsarc77skinsarc80lungsarc81asthma/migranes
95rkidneyremoved(cyst)diabetic/gallbremoved,96
totalhyst(cysts,endom)01fibro,Benicar40/20mg&xtra
as needed,stage5,
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Nightshade
Member in Phase 2
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Posted: Fri Dec 2nd, 2005 09:32 |
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Hi Aunt Diana,
all my experience with alcohol is very bad. I get very tired but not drunk from small amounts as a glass of beer, and get a horrible hangover for days. It is the same with all kinds of alcohol.
Lymies can not become alcoholics , the effect of alcohol is more painful than withdrawal effects can be.
Nightshade
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MP: Age 33 Borreliosis 83? dx 02, Brain fog, tiredness, depress, arthrit knees hands, Headaches. started Benicar 11.11.05 Mino 27.11.
25D=20; 1,25D=27 NOIRs avoid Light/VitD
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CLefelt
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Fri Dec 2nd, 2005 16:37 |
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My experiences are like Nightshade's, including an increase in brain fog and depression that last for days afterwards. But I had this reaction before the MP, but not before illness started in '99.
CarolLast edited on Fri Dec 2nd, 2005 16:39 by CLefelt
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Lyme Bartonella CFS FM Chly Pneu; Klonopin Florinef Lexapro TriEst Prog 10/04: 25D=9 1,25D=70 4/05 4/06: 25D=6.2 1,25D=20.9 8/06:25D=<7 1,25=13; Mino 11/36/04 2Abx 3/19/05 3Abx 4/27/06
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Chubby Chicken
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Posted: Sat Dec 10th, 2005 21:41 |
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Nightshade wrote: Lymies can not become alcoholics, the effect of alcohol is more painful than withdrawal effects can be.
This is very interesting! I am only 22 and have no idea how long I have been infected with Borrelia, but ever since I started consuming alcohol (around 18) I have been getting substantially worse and worse hangovers. It is to the point that even having 2-3 beers means the next day is a write-off and hence I simply choose not to drink.
CC
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Borrelia, Rickettsia, Suprascapular denervation, Phase-1 Dec 9/05, Phase-2 Feb 23/06, Phase-3 Jun 25/06, Olmesartan 40mg Q8H, M+Z+C, avoiding dietary D, 04/05:Vit-D:60/40ng/mL
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Guss Wilkinson
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Sun Dec 11th, 2005 19:30 |
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Alcohol works for me - during the worst herxes, a few drinkies gave a brief period of feeling normal.
So (in the words of Frank Sinatra (I think))...I feel sorry for those that don't drink - when they wake up in the mornings, that is the best that they are ever going to feel!!
Cheers
Guss
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Dx Sarc May 2002 Stage 2. Estimate Sarc since 1987. Lungs, Joints, Kidneys & GI. Two failed Prednisone courses. (Started MP: Oct 2003 - D25...31ng/ml, 1-25D...76 pg/ml), Phase III since July 2004; BP 100/60. Feeling pretty good!
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Alayne
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Posted: Tue Feb 6th, 2007 10:14 |
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Like Gus, I'll sometimes have a drink or two at times when the herx is bad (but always after 6pm), and it'll ease however I'm feeling...make me feel more normal. Maybe it makes me calmer...dunno. I've often wondered if it's actually dampening the IPR or making me more relaxed about it.
I recall before starting the MP, that when I felt really lousy and could do nothing, a glass or two of wine would sometimes enable me to move and do a few things - like put the dishes away. No groundbreaking activities, but the difference was pretty apparent.
(I did have a period when I couldn't drink at all - made me ill, but that passed quite a while ago.) I only drink beer or wine.
Hadn't thought about this for a while. Would be interested to hear what others have to say. Alcohol - immunosuppressant even at 2 glasses? Or just a mind relaxer, making the IPR more manageable? Hmmm.
-Alayne
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ME/CFS/FM 6/05:25D-34 1,25D-69, 11/07:25D-8 1,25-37, Sick 6-11 mos/yr x30+yrs. NoIRs/Avoid Sun/D/Use Zinc oxide. 11/17/05-Ph1, 5/06-MPh2, 12/06-MPh2#2, 6/07-MPh2#3,1/08-Ph2, 4/08-Ph3, NonMP Meds: MThistle/Calc&Mag/Lysine
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Aunt Diana
Moderator
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Posted: Tue Feb 6th, 2007 13:15 |
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I have had days when I don't feel like wine at all . I also have days, especially bad herx days when I'm feeling "off balance" that wine seems to help. If also helps me fall asleep.
I don't know but it doesn't seem to do any harm for me.
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Lyme 1987, neuro cardio fatigue achiness brain fog depression, anxiety. Pacemaker, D.1,25 32; D <5; 12/07 <6, hydrocodone, lorazapam, benedryl, zantac, colase, Noirs, cover-up or avoid sun, house <30lux. Feb 08 Phase 3. 6/08 D <4, D1,25
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Russ
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Tue Feb 6th, 2007 19:42 |
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| Alayne, I've wondered about that too. It might explain why there are those studies that say that people who have 1 or 2 drinks a day are at less a risk of developing diabetes than non-drinkers. Myabe it has some anti-inflammatory effects in these diseases.
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Lyme, MCS | Phase 1: Jul '06 | Phase 2: Nov '06 | Phase 3: Jul '07 | 25D: 5 ng/ml (Oct '09)
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jrfoutin
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Posted: Tue Feb 6th, 2007 21:07 |
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Frank S. may only have had his own perceptions of self to guess about those who do not drink alcohol.
I am one who never has.
And as such, I never sensed it was somehow needed to fall asleep or to lesson pain or ... any of the above for which people on or off the MP choose to include it in their intake processes.
I did however, have relatives that died as alcholics and other relatives and friends now that just can't get away from it. Helps me remember why I haven't and won't change my perspective about it anytime soon.--Janet
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Sarcoidosis 125D61, MP10/05 ModP2 12/05 Ph2 6/06 Ph3 10/06, NoIRs limited outings covered, 2/08 25D6.2, 10/08 25D6.9
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Nalda Cox
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Posted: Wed Feb 7th, 2007 18:28 |
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I would not dream of touching alcohol whist on abx. I think it could be quite dangerous. Would be careful about the beer with the yeast content in it also.
Miss my glass of red wine but being well is more important to me. I love a little soda water in the heat it is quite refreshing. does not seem to be a problem.
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Nalda Cox
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Posted: Wed Feb 7th, 2007 20:49 |
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With a few exceptions there is no chemical reaction between alcohol and antibiotics. It is a myth that you should not drink alcohol with antibiotics.
"Alcohol consumption does not affect therapy. Unless you are really sensitive to vitamin D intake (and some are), beer should be OK. I have a glass of plum wine every few days, and sometimes a little brandy, so I doubt that a little alcohol with your minocycline is going to make you explode in a puff of smoke, or anything like that." ..Trevor..
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Aunt Diana
Moderator
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Posted: Wed Feb 7th, 2007 22:18 |
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| That's almost as good news as the rosemary and sage.
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Lyme 1987, neuro cardio fatigue achiness brain fog depression, anxiety. Pacemaker, D.1,25 32; D <5; 12/07 <6, hydrocodone, lorazapam, benedryl, zantac, colase, Noirs, cover-up or avoid sun, house <30lux. Feb 08 Phase 3. 6/08 D <4, D1,25
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ShrnHml
Member in Phase 2/3
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Posted: Thu Feb 8th, 2007 06:03 |
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I'm amazed that no one else has said that wine makes them feel sick.....sort of like a bad herx. I have to stay away from wine, although I can drink other kinds of spirits. Anyone with MCS.......and a lot of us seem to have it....probably has to stay away from wine.
I love margaritas and always ask for them WITH salt so I can lick it off. Mmmm.......is my body telling me I need more salt? .....Sharon
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Neuroborreliosis, MP 3/05, 1,25D 62; 3/06 25D<4, ModPh2 12/05, Premarin, Effexor, stopped Benicar 1/07....no longer in study
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melinda
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Thu Feb 8th, 2007 15:23 |
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Sharon
I'm with you. I have given up wine here in the States. I think it's an additive that I'm sensitive to. When I was in Spain I could drink loads with no effect but even back then when I returned and drank American or improrted to America I was headachey after one glass. The effects were worse after MP, I still give it a shot once in awhile. I think it's a bit better but if I stay with vodka or tequila I don't get the reaction with one drink. so it's not alcohol it's wine. And I could never drink beer without feeling immediately zoonked so avoid that. I think even when they import wine from abroad they must add something to prolong shelf life. Ive been trying to figure out what the additive is.Nitrates?Nitrites? It's also on salad bars here too, I avoid cheap chain salad bars as they got me numerous times before I fugured out maybe it was a salad crisper they use.
Melinda
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Lyme, parathyph86, hepB73, MP 9/04, 125D58, 6/07 D2514, Ph2 02/04, Ph3 3/06, ambien, zanax, NoIRs
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Joy
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Posted: Thu Feb 8th, 2007 16:35 |
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Wine in the U.S. is processed with sulfites. (It even says so on the labels now, since so many people have bad reactions to it.)
Try organic wine and see if that makes a difference.
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CFS, FM, MCS, RA, low thyroid.
Began Ph 1 9/06, Phase 2 1/07. Stopped abx 11/07; stopped Benicar 5/09. 25D: 32,17,5,4,4
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jcwat101
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Posted: Thu Feb 8th, 2007 20:25 |
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I have always been very sensitive to alcohol -- even just a glass of wine -- and to sleeping poorly and feeling bad/spacey the next day (maybe partly the allergy/sensitivitity to the ingredients is involved in the reaction the next day).
The other problem, when I tried a little wine a while back, is that if you add the effect of alcohol to my cognitive difficulties, it only makes it harder for me to talk etc... and I don't need that.
As I'm improving, I'm thinking maybe I'll try a glass of wine again sometime and see what happens, especially now that the MP has begun to reduce my food allergies/sensitivities quite a lot.
Joyce Waterhouse
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20 yrs with CFS/FM/Lyme/IBS, food sensitivities; 1,25D/25D 8/04:64/11 http://SynergyHN.com
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Nalda Cox
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Posted: Fri Feb 9th, 2007 03:01 |
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| Well I am sorry to differ but I will not be doing it. Whether it is a myth or not.
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Nalda Cox
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xtian1
Banned
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Posted: Fri Feb 9th, 2007 03:07 |
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Alcohol contributes to Porphria.
Chris
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PRE MP: CFS, Chl Pneumonaie + Symptoms since 95 ACE:30 D,25:41. D,1,25:69(6/04) D,25:35 D,1,25:87(11/04) D,25:25 D,1,25:45(6/05) D,25: 23 D1,25:48 D,25: 25 D 1,25: 54 (4/07)
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eClaire
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Posted: Fri Feb 9th, 2007 10:03 |
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The symptoms I get from drinking alcohol tends to vary as my illness varies. For some strange reason, in recent years, I've had no affect from drinking cabernet--that's it...the only wine I can drink. When I was younger, I could only drink white wines. Now, that I'm going through the MP and my symptoms are heating back up again, I have no desire to test out what my body can manage. Better to just avoid...at least for a while.
Years ago, however, I read an article that said that all hard liquor, save one, had a chemical that was difficult for the liver to break down and therefore more likely to cause a hangover (and I imagine problems for people with Th1 illnesses). The one liquor that did not contain this chemical was (and I suppose still is) potato vodka. On the rare occassion where I have wanted a mixed drink or a martini, potato vodka has remained my drink of choice and I rarely suffer from drinking small amounts of it. Again, as my symptoms heat up, my desire to test out the benign nature of potato vodka wanes.
Claire
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34mo on MP; CFS FMS MCS COPD hypermob. IBS/GERD osteopor.; 125D48 25D<4;
NoIRs during most daylight outings & covered up; home w/o NoIRs
Ph1.Dec06 * ModPh2.Jun07 * AbxBrk.Mar-May08 * Ph2.Oct-Nov08 * Ph1.Jan2009
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Lantern
Member in Phase 2/3
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Posted: Thu Feb 15th, 2007 03:07 |
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Hmmm.. this is interesting. I had to stop drinking alcohol because the after-effects became progressively worse. Headaches I could handle, but spending the next two days extremely depressed after just a half a glass of wine is not worth it.
Meg linked to a great article, written by Australia'sn scientist Dr Karl Kruszelnicki (who has a fantastic hour-long weekly show on the national youth radio network where people ring up and ask all sorts of questions), where he states:
Penicillin was truly a miracle drug when it was first introduced. It worked quickly and effectively against pneumonia, meningitis and hundreds of other deadly diseases. It was also especially effective against what were then called "Venereal Diseases" (VDs) - now called Sexually Transmitted Diseases (STDs).
The VD Clinics of the 1950s and 1960s gave the somber and serious advice that alcohol should absolutely not be used while taking penicillin. But there were no significant chemical interactions between penicillin and alcohol. The real reason that this advice was given was for moral reasons, not pharmacological reasons. The medicos of the day were worried that alcohol would reduce the inhibitions of the sufferers, and that, while under the influence, they might get a little "frisky" and pass on their infection to another person, before the penicillin had a chance to cure the sexually transmitted diseases.
That's how the mythconception that alcohol should never be taken with antibiotics arose.
Even so, it's well known that alcohol can interact quite nastily with a small number of modern drugs such as tinidazole (Fasigyn) and metronidazole (Flagyl), potentially causing nausea, vomiting, abdominal cramps, headaches, fast heart rate and flushing. And alcohol can reduce the absorption of other antibiotics such as the doxycyclines and tetracyclines. But these few interactions are well known to both medical doctors and pharmacists.
I think that last bit is significant - if the absorbtion of minocycline (which is in the tetracycline family) is lowered, it stands to reason that it's equal to taking a lower dose, which could result in stronger herxing. I think that could be why most of the MPers on this thread have reported worsening symptoms. There is also the double whammy of alcohol being a simple sugar, and therefore a source of food for the bacteria (which could perhaps explain why some people feel better after drinking; feeding bacteria lessening/preventing herx maybe?)
In the info for one of the Phase 3 antibiotics, it is recommended to avoid alcohol. For those with access to the 2/3 forum, you can read that info by *clicking here.*
I also like Dr Karl's piece of advice at the end;
Mind you, alcohol can put an extra load on your liver and immune system, can impair your judgment, liberate aggressive tendencies, reduce your energy state - and can be associated with staying up late, behaving recklessly, and not getting all the rest that your body needs to heal itself. So half a glass of an alcoholic beverage of our choice would be fine with most antibiotics.
As much as I'd love to have some "time off" to drink and enjoy myself, the load on my body would be too much. I'll wait until I'm better. Or.. at least halfway through Phase 3.. 
____________________
CFS IBS Malabsorption Hypothyroid Rickettsia. Ph1 Apr06, Mod.Ph2 Oct06, Ph2 Feb07, Ph3 Aug07. Endep T3/T4 Panadol. NoIRs, homebound in low lux. Apr07 1,25D=15.4, 25D=13.6
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Guss Wilkinson
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Thu Feb 15th, 2007 04:38 |
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Reading this has made me quite thirsty - time to knock off work and enjoy a pint of Gin & Tonic at home.
Have a good evening
Guss
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Dx Sarc May 2002 Stage 2. Estimate Sarc since 1987. Lungs, Joints, Kidneys & GI. Two failed Prednisone courses. (Started MP: Oct 2003 - D25...31ng/ml, 1-25D...76 pg/ml), Phase III since July 2004; BP 100/60. Feeling pretty good!
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Paulie
Member
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Posted: Tue Feb 5th, 2008 05:32 |
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Just curious about this . Any thoughts or comments?
Beer, Tea and Wine Affect Folic acid Uptake
by Steve Myers
09/17/2007
PORTO, Portugal—Constituents in beer, wine and tea appear to inhibit the uptake of both folic acid and anti-folate in the intestines, according to results published in the Aug. 28 European Journal of Nutrition (2007; 46(6):329-36). Researchers from University of Porto and VU University Medical Center, Amsterdam, investigated whether beverages like wine, beer and tea, or some of their specific constituents, affect the intestinal uptake of water-soluble H-folic acid or 3H-methotrexate, an anti-folate. All tested beverages significantly inhibited the uptake of 3H-folic acid by Caco-2 cells (mimic intestinal cells); most of these beverages, excluding wine, also inhibited 3H-methotrexate uptake in these cells. Additionally, ethanol, when tested separately, inhibited the uptake of both the folic acid and anti-folate compounds. Some of the tested phenolic compounds—specifically myricetin, epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG) and isoxanthohumol—markedly inhibited 3H-folic acid uptake. Myricetin and EGCG also had a concentration-dependent inhibitory effect on the uptake of 3H-methotrexate by Caco-2 cells. Resveratrol, quercetin and kaempferol inhibited the transport of both compounds, but only in the concentration of 100 µM. The researchers concluded dietary constituents from certain beverages may impact on intestinal folate uptake, as demonstrated by the tests on their phenolic compounds.
Noted
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jcwat101
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Posted: Tue Feb 5th, 2008 18:42 |
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It is interesting. You might want to read this article by Amy Proal on how they are finding increasing evidence of a "down side" to folic acid supplementation:
News Flash: Recent Research Related to the Marshall Protocol
Perhaps this is partly why some studies find a little alcohol may benefit men's health (by decreasing folic acid). Studies so far have not found giving folic acid benefit's heart disease in men (as some studies on homocysteine predicted it would).
In women, any benefit of alcohol seems to be outweighed by an increase in breast cancer risk from alcohol consumption. Although people who are healed by the MP may not have to worry too much about that in the long run if we are proven right about the role of bacteria in cancer.
Joyce Waterhouse
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20 yrs with CFS/FM/Lyme/IBS, food sensitivities; 1,25D/25D 8/04:64/11 http://SynergyHN.com
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