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Tobi
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Posted: Thu Feb 2nd, 2006 21:18 |
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"About 75% of autoimmune diseases occur in women, most frequently during the childbearing years" http://www.aarda.org/women.html For example the ratio of females to males in hashimoto's thyroiditis is 50:1, lupus 9:1,antiphospholipid syndrome 9:1.
71 percent of Rheumatoid arthritis sufferers are women, multiple sclerosis affects twice as many women as men, usually aged between 20 and 40. Scleraderma occurs 15 times more often among women in their childbearing years. And so on.
This brings up a number of questions. If CWD bacteria underlie autoimmune diseases, why are young women most vulnerable? It would appear that this must be because of their different hormonal makeup. Which hormones then?
Another related question is: Is progesterone a steroid? If so it would act as an immune system supressor when present in large quantities as it is during pregnancy and certain stages of the menstrual cycle. What are the implications of that, and what does this mean for Th1 disease sufferers taking progesterone as part of HRT?
And most important, what are the implications for the MP? To my non-scientific mind it would seem that suppressing progesterone or at least not supplementing it would have to be part of the picture.
I had a very hard time with the MP and my illness in general before my recent hysterectomy. For about 5 months previous to the surgery I was on excessively high doses of progesterone (Primolut) continuously in order to control heavy bleeding. Looking back, this corresponds to lack of progress on the MP. Could it be that the progesterone was acting as a steroid, thus not allowing the MP to do its job ?
I'm sure I'm oversimplifying the issue, but I would greatly appreciate some input from those who understand more.
Tobi
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CFS,Rickettsia Conoori-,HHV6,Ureaplasma(all 3 culture,PCR) 25D 16.4ng/ml,1.25D 26pg/ml.Ratio 1,3 Blood probably NOT frozen Benicar 9/18/04 Mino 100mg 10/18/04 Phase 2 01/26/05
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Tobi
Member.
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Posted: Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 01:53 |
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I've just read a few articles about male and female CFS sufferers.It seems that somewhere between 66% and 75% of sufferers are female. Of course many variables could be operating to account for this difference, but if both autoimmune disease and CFS sufferers are predominantly female, the hormonal issue has to be relevant. The issue is not "Is it relevant?" but "HOW is it relevant?" I also wonder whether there is much post-menopausal onset, without HRT.
Tobi
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CFS,Rickettsia Conoori-,HHV6,Ureaplasma(all 3 culture,PCR) 25D 16.4ng/ml,1.25D 26pg/ml.Ratio 1,3 Blood probably NOT frozen Benicar 9/18/04 Mino 100mg 10/18/04 Phase 2 01/26/05
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katydid
Guests visiting Phase 1/2/3
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Posted: Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 02:06 |
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Tobi,
I don't know for sure about the effects on the immune system, but to my knowledge, progesterone is a steroid. I thought it probably was and just googled it.
I guess we'll have to leave the other questions to those with more knowledge, but I can say that my health improved after my hysterectomy, but I think in my case, it was due to the level of infection there. After having my gallbladder and uterus removed 6 weeks apart, I felt better for quite awhile. Too bad the docs weren't paying attention when I said I thought I had an infection, hey?
I would bet you are right about the hormones, though.
Kathy
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CFS.D's 12/05 25D-7, 1,25D-19,not Quest.Vicodin 10-325 1 PRN.Flexeril 10 mg qday.Westhroid 60 mg.12/27/05 Avoid sun,D Noir's.
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Posted: Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 05:03 |
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Tobi,
Here is one overview of the steroid hormones.
This article states that steroid hormones are grouped according to the receptors to which they bind and includes Vitamin D (a sterol).
Here is a simple explanation of how steroid hormones work.
The higher incidence of autoimmune diseases in women has been related to the glucocorticoid hormones, not the progestins. http://tinyurl.com/8vpzl
As you can see, male hormones are also steroids so it's impossible to generalize about how progesterone might relate to the higher incidence of so-called autoimmune diseases in women.
Th1 inflammation also causes a lot of diseases that are not considered autoimmune and strike men in higher numbers. Heart disease, prostatitis and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease are a few that come to mind.
Best,
Meg
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ShrnHml
Guests visiting Phase 1/2/3
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Posted: Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 06:25 |
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I can trace my very first observable symptoms of "something wrong" after taking Depo-Provera (I believe a progesterone) over 30 years ago. It was right after that that I got PCOS (poly-cystic ovary syndrome), and that eventually lead to a total hysterectomy.
Years later (having forgotton about the Depo-Prevera) and reading about how we need progesterone, I got a scrip from my doc for progesterone cream. I rubbed a teensy-tiny amount on my arm, and the next day I felt like I had PCOS again, even though I had no ovaries.
I let a few more years pass and tried it again. Same thing happened: pelvic pain and bloating.
For some there may be a connection. In my case, there seems to be.
Sharon
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Neuroborreliosis, MP 3/05, 1,25D 62; 3/06 25D<4, ModPh2 12/05, Premarin, Effexor, stopped Benicar 1/07....no longer in study
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Tobi
Member.
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Posted: Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 08:03 |
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I had sudden onset CFS which occurred exactly two days after the insertion of a Mirena IUD which delivers progesterone to the uterus. I developed strong muscle twitches and had my first fall because of dragging one leg. I now wonder whether this and my health difficulties while on progesterone were related. If progesterone depresses the immune system, this makes perfect sense.
Tobi
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CFS,Rickettsia Conoori-,HHV6,Ureaplasma(all 3 culture,PCR) 25D 16.4ng/ml,1.25D 26pg/ml.Ratio 1,3 Blood probably NOT frozen Benicar 9/18/04 Mino 100mg 10/18/04 Phase 2 01/26/05
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Aussie Barb
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Posted: Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 08:39 |
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To All
when speaking of Progesterone, it is important to know whether we are speaking of natural or synthetic progesterone. This site eg says re Progesterone: Theres a world of difference between natural progesterone and synthetic ...
The Mirena IUD releases small amounts of a synthetic progesterone hormone.
Barb ...
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Barb: Dx Inflammatory Disease Endocrine Imbalance 2003| Depression| 24+ years not Dx| MP Aug04| Fibromyalgia| ABC of MP| Barb's Story|
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Posted: Sat Feb 4th, 2006 04:45 |
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Sharon,
There are many forms of progesterone and, as Barb pointed out, there is a very important difference between the synthetic and human identical forms. This article explains the difference between over the counter “natural” hormones and “FDA approved, prescription only bioidentical hormones.
Some women have good reason to supplement with progesterone. Our recommendation is in Birth Control and HRT. We would encourage them to talk with their doctors about using a prescription-only, bio-identical form.
Best,
MegLast edited on Tue Jul 31st, 2007 21:36 by Foundation Staff
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Alayne
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Posted: Sat Feb 4th, 2006 07:51 |
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In case it helps here, I take bio-identical progesterone and I'm having no difficulty herxing, so figure my immune system's not being adversely affected.  However, I was never able to tolerate birth control pills - became ill each time. They contained synthetic progesterone.
~AlayneLast edited on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 07:51 by Alayne
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CFS/FM Sick 30+yrs. NoIRs/Zinc oxide. 6/05:25D-34, 1,25D-69; 11/07:25D-8 1,25-37. 11/17/05-Ph1, 5/06-MPh2, 12/06-MPh2#2, 6/07-MPh2#3,1/08-Ph2, 4/08-Ph3. 4/09-10/09 weaned off abx. Benicar q4-6h. Heavy metal chelation as recent adjunctive therapy.
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Tobi
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Posted: Sat Feb 4th, 2006 07:53 |
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Thanks Meg,
I now have another question: why do women have a higher level of circulating glucocorticoids? What supports higher stress hormones in women? And now, why do women in their childbearing years, have much higher rates of autoimmune disease, CFS and circulating glucocorticoids? Hormones? which hormones? Whatever puts females more at risk surely needs to be identified on a molecular level rather than just identifying a factor that correlates statistically.
I am editing here to add "Cortisol : dominant glucocorticoid in humans , synthesized from progesterone" http://www.med.unibs.it/~marchesi/sterhorm.html
Tobi
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CFS,Rickettsia Conoori-,HHV6,Ureaplasma(all 3 culture,PCR) 25D 16.4ng/ml,1.25D 26pg/ml.Ratio 1,3 Blood probably NOT frozen Benicar 9/18/04 Mino 100mg 10/18/04 Phase 2 01/26/05
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Posted: Sat Feb 4th, 2006 16:43 |
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Tobi,
Those are interesting questions. Perhaps someone can answer them for you. Your experience with synthetic progesterone may provide a clue now that you are resuming the MP without it.
As regards the Marshall Protocol, women who are having difficulty should discuss with their doctors the possible implications of any hormone therapy they are taking. Usually the risk/benefit ratio is considered when making a decision to discontinue any medication.
Best,
Meg
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Tobi
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Posted: Thu Feb 9th, 2006 03:52 |
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If it is so that synthetic progesterone in high doses over a long period of time may act as a steroid and suppress the immune system, I'm wondering how long it would take for the immune system to recover - weeks, months? I'm wondering whether my lack of obvious herx during the progesterone - laden months could have been due to the suppression of the immune system, and when I should expect expect obvious herx symptoms again, now I've discontinued it's use over the past 5 months.
I'm sure this is answered elsewhere but how long does the immune system take to recover from the use of synthetic steroids, once they are discontinued?
Thank you for helping me unravel this issue.
Tobi
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CFS,Rickettsia Conoori-,HHV6,Ureaplasma(all 3 culture,PCR) 25D 16.4ng/ml,1.25D 26pg/ml.Ratio 1,3 Blood probably NOT frozen Benicar 9/18/04 Mino 100mg 10/18/04 Phase 2 01/26/05
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Aussie Barb
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Posted: Thu Feb 9th, 2006 21:55 |
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Tobi
This FAQ has Information Why do I have to stop taking supplements? Dr Marshall wrote: Generally, anything you add to the MP tends to stop it killing the pathogens. There is a very delicate balance which an MP patient sets up, a balance between the rate of killing the pathogens and the level of herxheimer which the patient can handle. <<
Usually the risk/benefit ratio is considered when making a decision to Rx or discontinue any medication.
We do not know how these supplements interact with the medications on the Marshall Protocol or how they might affect the immune system.
re "when I should expect obvious herx symptoms again" would be subject to many variables and may be discussed more fully in your progress report as to using the MP meds, combinations, and adjusting meds dosing and schedule as suited individually to you within the guidelines to achieve and maintain (tolerable) Herxing (physically, mentally, and emotionally)...
all best, Barb ...
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Barb: Dx Inflammatory Disease Endocrine Imbalance 2003| Depression| 24+ years not Dx| MP Aug04| Fibromyalgia| ABC of MP| Barb's Story|
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LH1953
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Fri Feb 10th, 2006 13:50 |
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| Hi. I was just skimming over this post and it brought a question to mind. All of my health issues started with my last pregnancy, when I was 39. Since I had miscarried before, and my levels were low, I was given progesterone for the first 3 months of pregnancy, till the placenta took over. Am I understanding that high levels of progesterone surpresses the immune system? Was this the possiable cause to the start of my health issues? After delivery, my 3rd C- section, I was sick with high fevers. Had to stay in the hospital for 11 days. The doctors never could find out why. Was on big doses of antibiotics for 1 month. I have always said that I have NEVER been the same since my last pregnancy. Thanks for your opinion. Lori
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Lyme, MCS, IC, Asthma, Reflux, UC, Osteopenia, Hypothy, EBV, 1,25D-48, MP 8/05, Proventil inhaler, Xopenex neb. PBX, diazepam, fioricet, Ph3 7/06, NoIRs, limited outings covered up, low lux home, 25D-4, 1,25D-24
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Posted: Fri Feb 10th, 2006 15:22 |
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Lori,
If you will read through this thread carefully, you will see that it's been written repeatedly there is no evidence that progesterone suppresses the immune system. It may or it may not affect the immune system but we cannot say for sure that it does or how it might do that. We need to be very careful to point out what we know as fact and what is speculation.
The placenta produces 1,25-D and many women report feeling better during pregnancy with a relapse of their disease postpartum. Your experience mirrors that and your earlier miscarriage may have been caused by factors unrelated to Th1 inflammation.
Best,
Meg
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LH1953
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Sat Feb 11th, 2006 03:12 |
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Thanks Meg, I am not looking to put a label on something, as I am trying to understand what has happened to me in the past. It is hard for me to really know when I started symptom due to the Lyme Disease, or just a state of illness since the last pregnancy.
The BEST thing I know now is that I am on the right track with the MP. I am also grateful for the guidence and opinions which everyone is kind enough to provide. Lori
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Lyme, MCS, IC, Asthma, Reflux, UC, Osteopenia, Hypothy, EBV, 1,25D-48, MP 8/05, Proventil inhaler, Xopenex neb. PBX, diazepam, fioricet, Ph3 7/06, NoIRs, limited outings covered up, low lux home, 25D-4, 1,25D-24
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P.Bear R.N.
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Posted: Mon Feb 13th, 2006 01:15 |
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All, I am not a biochemist but I feel it is important to listen to people's experiences with progesterone. Although some may be able to tolerate replacement with a natural form it is possible that others can not. According to below chart on link: If progesterone can be converted to cortisol; whereby progesterone converts to 17-hydroxyprogesterone that converts to 11-deoxycortisol that converts to cortisol; then this would explain some people's reports of failure to progress with progesterone replacement.
see this Link
best, P.B.
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Mon Feb 13th, 2006 01:31 |
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P.B.,
Progesterone does not need to be converted to anything. It plays havoc with VDR and PPARgamma on its own. VDR Ki=3 and PPARg ki=0.5
A normal (low) dose of progesterone, less than a few milligrams, is probably going to be OK, even with that high affinity. Some folks use far too much of it, however.
DHEA is also a steroid, and, at doses over about 40mg, also interferes with Benicar's control of VDR and PPARgamma.
Last edited on Mon Feb 13th, 2006 01:39 by Dr Trevor Marshall
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carol
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Mon Feb 13th, 2006 04:54 |
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Dear Friends:
I have been interested in the role of hormones in relation to the MP since I posted a question about this here in September ‘04.
Impact of MP on Hormones
Like P. Bear, I find it noteworthy that many women report an association between some event in which progesterone figured prominently and the onset or worsening of their disease. Also, as he notes, I have seen several versions of hormone “flow charts” which show that progesterone is “upstream” of cortisol.
Trevor’s knowledge regarding the direct action of progesterone on VDR and PPARgamma would seem to take this discussion to the next level.
Several years ago, before I started the MP, my doctor (who is a big believer in “the miracle of natural hormones”) prescribed a topical cream with bio-identical estrogen, progesterone and testosterone. It worked great for menopause symptoms!
In Nov ’04 I took note of a brief discussion here regarding the possible immunomodulatory effects of testosterone.
Since my blood level for testosterone was high as a result of the supplementation, I asked my doctor to revise my prescription to eliminate the testosterone altogether. My blood level retreated appropriately and I noticed no ill effects.
Last summer I decided to try using the estrogen/progesterone cream once a day instead of twice a day. Decreasing the dose by half produced no hot flashes and my blood levels of estrogen and progesterone really didn’t change very much. When I started following this thread about a week ago, I decided that I would try using the rx cream every other day. So far, so good wrt symptoms. It will be interesting to see what my next set of blood tests look like.
I have found it curious that my DHEA level has consistently been elevated without supplementation. I know many people with Th1 disease report low DHEA and take a supplement.
Just as I discontinued armour thyroid and cortef early on in my MP journey, and then gave up testosterone, it seems right that I should be able to retire the estrogen/progesterone cream.
Carol
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rheumatoid arthritis dx '96...started MP 8/11/04...initial D tests: 25-D=32; 1,25-D=65...10/07 entered Phase 5...Xodol daily, Valium and Tramadol occasionally, all for pain...last 25-D=7 (10/09)...Benicar only, no abx
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jcwat101
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Posted: Fri Feb 24th, 2006 23:48 |
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When I was at the Chicago Conference in March 2005, I conversed with Dr. Millie Coker-Vann who carries on the work of Dr. Thomas MacPherson Brown treating rheumatoid arthritis with antibiotics. Their work focuses particularly on the role of Mycoplasma.
I asked her about how much more likely it was for a man to pass Mycoplasma to a woman during sexual intercourse than vice versa. I can’t recall for certain the exact figure she used, but I think she said it was probably 3 or 4 times more likely.
It would be interesting what the role of this factor might be in the relative rates of different autoimmune diseases. Perhaps the diseases where there is primarily respiratory transmission (perhaps like in sarcoidosis) there might be a more equal distribution between the sexes.
Hormones certainly could also play a role, but we all certainly know the pathogen load is primary and there seems to be an inequality there in transfer. Of course, the child-bearing years are also years of sexual activity typically.
Joyce Waterhouse, Ph.D.
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20 yrs with CFS/FM/Lyme/IBS, food sensitivities; 1,25D/25D 8/04:64/11 http://SynergyHN.com
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