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LaurelAy
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Posted: Tue Feb 21st, 2006 03:50 |
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I have read that neurotoxins can cause a variety of problems even after much of the Borrelia is killed off because they can not be cleared out of the body without help. (Dr. Richie Shoemaker) These sx may include inflammation, interference with hormone action by blocking hormone receptors and brain sx like "brain fog".
There are two drugs, Cholestryamine resin and Welchol that can clear some to most of the toxins. Is this treatment compatible with the MP?
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Lyme 2003/ start Benicar Mar'05 start Mino Mar'05/ start Ph2 May05. 25D=20/ 125D=58 Sythroid klonopin
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Tue Feb 21st, 2006 04:17 |
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This information is totally incorrect.
I have studied the hormone receptors extensively. I would be happy to discuss the Molecular Genomics with Dr Shoemaker, but he has (to date) not been willing to do that.
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Aussie Barb
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Posted: Tue Feb 21st, 2006 04:20 |
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Laurel
see this FAQ Why do I have to stop taking supplements? and also scroll down for further specific Information on Cholestyrimine.
Thanks, Barb ...
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Barb: Dx Inflammatory Disease Endocrine Imbalance 2003| Depression| 24+ years not Dx| MP Aug04| ABC of MP| MP Search|
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Nightshade
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Posted: Tue Feb 21st, 2006 12:26 |
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| Only very few substances like heavy metals stay in the body for ever. Biologic substances like neurotoxins get destroyed or excreted with time. The fading away of a herx comes because the released toxines have a limited lifetime, rather days than years. When no more new toxin is made by the bacteria, the effects of the already released poison will not last long.
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MP: Age 33 Borreliosis 83? dx 02, Brain fog, tiredness, depress, arthrit knees hands, Headaches. started Benicar 11.11.05 Mino 27.11.
25D=20; 1,25D=27 NOIRs avoid Light/VitD
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Lonestartick
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Posted: Tue Feb 21st, 2006 22:51 |
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Hi LaurelAY,
I am a late-stage Borrelia (Lyme) patient with co-infections. It was decades before I was properly diagnosed and treated. I have been around the block when it comes to treating Lyme and co-infections by the LLMD approved methods. I have done cholestyramine (Questran) with ABX treatment. As a matter of fact, I was one of the early Lyme pioneers with Dr. Shoe's neurotoxin therapy.
I recall that it took months for it to help me. Even then, the help was minimal - nothing compared to the MP. Actually, I was in my 3rd box before I noticed any improvement at all. Cholestyramine is not without its own side effects and risks, such as vitamin deficiency as a result of its ability to bind everything.
Prior to the MP, I was considered a treatment failure after 17 months of IV ABX followed by years of oral combinations that included a variety of ABX, flagyl, tinidazole, Mepron and diflucan. I can tell you, I wasted much time and vast amounts of money before I found the MP. This is the real deal and you don't really need to augment it with anything. Under no circumstances would I try combining it with cholestyramine. Based on my personal experience with both therapies used separately, it is not something I would ever be comfortable doing.
The MP is not a quick fix, but it really does work just as predicted. It is the only treatment that has ever handled all of my infections. (Lab confirmed: Borrelia, Babesia, Bartonella, mycoplasma, Candida, HHV-6 and EBV.) Prior to this protocol, I bought into the idea of a “carousel of tick-borne infections”, because it seemed that once I knocked one down, another popped up in its place. All of those positive tests and diagnoses I had bought into in the past are finally a thing of the past. These days, I am the proud owner of a fully functioning immune system and it is handling everything quite nicely.
At this point, I am in my 19the month on the protocol and I am in phase 3. I have been pretty remiss about posting progress because I am busy enjoying a level of health that I never before could have imagined. The MP meds and lifestyle have made this possible. Having been the LLMD route from 2000-2004, I can assure that they have nothing on TM and the MP. Unfortunately, it seems that our LLMDs are too lost in a quagmire of brain-fogged patients who are seeking quick fixes to recognize the full potential of this discovery.
Wishing you every success on your MP journey.
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F age 41 Began MP 7-26-04 Dx: neuro-borreliosis (chronic late-stage Lyme disease) conf by several labs, with co-infections (Bartonella, mycoplasma, Babesia); 6 yrs prior abx (17mo IV) Meds: Thyroid, 40mgBeni qid, Phase 3
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GeorgeinRollaMO
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Wed Feb 22nd, 2006 06:07 |
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Thank you! LoneStarTick
Your post is muchly appreciated!!!!! 
Dark Vader (aka, George)
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Borreliosis:7/14/04--125D=57,25D=61. Ben 9/1/04. Mino 10/5/04. 4/13/05--125D=58,25D=43. 8/17/05--125D=52,25D=36. April 06=125D=38,25D=29. 8/29/06--125D=37,25D=29. June 07 25D=23. Oct31'07,25D=19.
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JCB
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Posted: Wed Feb 22nd, 2006 18:00 |
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Lonestartick-
Great post and great to hear how well a lyme patient is doing. There are people coming along including my daughter who look forward to the day they can make a similar post.
JCB
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teenage daughter with chronic Lyme Jul 28 04 25D-23, 1,25D-60 ratio 2.8, Benicar init Sep 14 04 Mino Nov 4 04 Phase 2 Jan 25 05, Mod Ph 2 w/ C currently
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LaurelAy
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Posted: Wed Feb 22nd, 2006 23:53 |
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First of all, my apologies to Dr. Shoemaker for getting him in trouble. I was paraphrasing an article, not quoting words from his mouth.
Dear TM,
With all due respect, you didn't answer my question, you just told me it was a lot of Huey. Do you have a reference for the Not Huey?
Dear Lonestartick,
Thank you for you thoughtful response. The phase 2 posts can be quite a demoralizing experience. I suspect this is true with anything where people are trying to alleviate suffering and get back on track. It would be REALLY nice if more of the people NOT having troubles would post as a BIG service to those struggling. I want to say that I ABSOLUTELY APPRECIATE your post here and APPLAUD YOU!
I would never combine any other procedure with the MP, that is contraindicated!
QUESTIONS ABOUT SUFFERING AND WELL BEING ARE ALWAYS, NO MATTER WHAT ANY ONE ELSE THINKS, TOP PRIORITY FOR REASONABLE ANSWERS.
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Lyme 2003/ start Benicar Mar'05 start Mino Mar'05/ start Ph2 May05. 25D=20/ 125D=58 Sythroid klonopin
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Posted: Thu Feb 23rd, 2006 01:33 |
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Laurel,
We are familiar with Dr. Shoemaker's work and it has been mentioned on this website before. Dr. Marshall's brief reply was meant to caution our members about use of drugs that do not work.
Dr. Marshall is happy to engage in discussions of molecular science with his peers. Please see:
I don’t understand the science behind the Marshall Protocol. Where can I get answers?
The staff of MP.com is concerned about the well-being of all our members and we try to answer all questions regarding suffering. You are right that folks who are having problems tend to post more often than those who are not. For inspiration and encouragement, you might re-read:
MARSHALL PROTOCOL SUCCESS STORIES
Please continue to post in your progress report and we will help in any way that we can.
Best,
Meg
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Arlene
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Posted: Thu Feb 23rd, 2006 02:38 |
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Nightshade,
I believe that Dr. Shoemaker studies mold toxins as his area of expertise. You could look up more info on the web if you are interested. I believe his hypothesis is that the toxins from the bacteria are excreted into the bowel, but then reabsorbed back into the blood, then deposited into the fatty tissue. From there it can reenter the circulation and the tissues with the new neurotoxin. There is an additive effect so that the load on the body increases rather than decreases. I'm sure this is an over simplified version, but it works.
It may cause problems for some people, and some people may excrete it better than others. For some it may cause nerve problems and an increase in other unpleasant symptoms. Like many medical theories, and much of current medicine is theory, it remains to be proved and proof is a relative thing too. The idea is to pick the theory that works best for you.
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CFS'93,Lyme/Borreliosis'02,hypothyroid,restless leg, sleep distb, Synthriod,Mirapex,Ambien,DHEA. 12/2/04-Benicar q6h, Mino start 12-31-04, Quercitin Q8H, 1,25D/D 11/04-68/18, 1/05-40/28, 9/05-14/9 PhaseII 4-19-05
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LaurelAy
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Posted: Thu Feb 23rd, 2006 03:45 |
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Meg,
Some how it just doesn't seem right not to have a reference, this is a question about suffering. All of us being human, understanding why TM believes this doesn't work is a key to the human spirit. Information gives us strenghth to overcome when we feel the disease is crushing us.
In my Lyme groups their are some detractors, I woulld like to be able to explain why the Questran doesn't do the job or about the cystic forms or other things. Everyone of them is desperatly looking fo the answers. If I can provide some logical informed answers then I may be able to help them to the MP. With all it's difficulties it is the best answer out there for a cure.
Laurel
Last edited on Thu Feb 23rd, 2006 04:39 by LaurelAy
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Lyme 2003/ start Benicar Mar'05 start Mino Mar'05/ start Ph2 May05. 25D=20/ 125D=58 Sythroid klonopin
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Posted: Thu Feb 23rd, 2006 05:11 |
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Laurel,
Dr. Marshall has proven his pathogenesis of Th1 inflammation and you can learn about it in the PAPERS FOR PHYSICIANS, the DVDS and many posts on this website.
The burden to prove any scientific theory is on the promoter of that theory. Everyone should insist the scientific proof be detailed at the molecular level.
We need to concentrate our efforts on refining our understanding of the immune system, not engaging in debate with nonscientists.
You can best convince the Lyme skeptics by concentrating on getting well with the Marshall Protocol.
Best,
Meg
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Posted: Thu Feb 23rd, 2006 05:23 |
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Arlene,
I must respectfully disagree with your statement that "The idea is to pick the theory that works best for you."
There are practitioners who can "razzle-dazzle" the desperate with scientific jargon. If you cannot understand the science, you can make your decision based on the effectiveness of the treatment. The MP does more than alleviate some symptoms. It is a curative therapy as evidenced by hundreds of observational reports.
The way to get well, is to be able to discern the credibility of both the scientist and the scientific theory. Proof is not "relative" and the Marshall Protocol has met the proof of credibility.
Best,
Meg
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Aunt Diana
Moderator
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Posted: Thu Feb 23rd, 2006 06:47 |
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I, too, have been a patient of Dr. Shoemaker. I have read all of his books, have been to his office in Maryland, have been fully tested by him and stayed with the Cholestyramine for over a year. I eventually realized that it had done all it was going to do for me....it may have helped somewhat but it didn't kill any of the bugs. Dr. Shoemaker believes that the antibiotics I have taken over the years had done as much as they can do and the rest is up to the cholestyramin. When I called him to tell him I believed I needed antibiotics again he suggested I have my house tested for mold.
A few months later I discovered this website. I have been so relieved ever since because this is "true science" as far as I can tell, and it immediately resonated with me.
Dr. Shoemaker does not provide such an interactive way to talk to other patients he has treated....you only hear the success stories as edited by him. He is a very nice man, and I think he is well intended. Perhaps his treatment works for some illnesses, but in my experience my Lyme disease was only progressing. I need something to "kill" these bugs, not just eliminate the toxins.
I have also learned over the years that it is difficult to give other Lyme patients advice....most of the people I have known who I believe have Lyme "listen to their doctors" and don't tend to be proactive. If I were in a support group I would simply give the information about the MP and leave it up to the individuals to study it. Those who are really open to learning and want to take some charge of their situation will probably see it the way I do, the "real deal" as lonestartick called it. It is not up to anyone to convince these people. That is up to them.
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Lyme 1987, neuro cardio fatigue achiness brain fog depression, anxiety. Pacemaker, D.1,25 32; D <5; 12/07 <6, hydrocodone, lorazapam, benedryl, zantac, colase, Noirs, cover-up or avoid sun, house <30lux. Feb 08 Phase 3. 6/08 D <4, D1,25
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Linda J
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Thu Feb 23rd, 2006 17:02 |
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I'm also another previous Shoemaker patient that didn't get well on his protocol. I stuck with it for about 8 months, but got so sick during that time that I finally quit. My health took a significant dive from his treatment protocol.
We did have our house tested for mold, and did extensive remodeling to remove any of it, but that didn't do a single thing to help. His final assessment of my problem was that I must have some permenant damage to my MSH pathways, and without supplemental treatment, I'd likely never get better. But he didn't offer any kind of way for me to have that tested or to get access to MSH, and I kind of felt like he left me hanging out in the cold.
Interestingly enough, though, he was the first doctor to consider the possibility that I might have Lyme disease, although he highly doubted it at first, even though I brought up the fact that I had been bitten by ticks so many times I've lost count, I've had known tick bites from deer ticks in states with a high Lyme rate of incidence, and I've had two bulls-eye rashes. He doubted me, but I insisted that he at least look into it, and when the lab tests came back, he agreed that Lyme was my underlying problem.
That has since been reconfirmed by testing done by my current MP doctor. So while I'm a little peeved about how he sort of left me out in the cold, and his treatment protocol didn't help me at all, and in fact, made me significantly worse, I do appreciate the fact that he was the first doctor that I saw who finally took the possibility that I might have Lyme seriously enough to look into it.
____________________
Lyme thyroiditis IBS MVP PTSD MCS 125D63 SAM-e Claritin probiotics silymarin magnesium 5htp homebound low lux NoIRs 25D8 (Oct08)
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Arlene
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Posted: Thu Feb 23rd, 2006 17:33 |
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Meg,
We are actually agreeing. Everyone remembers the most egregious flip-flops of recent years? HRTs absolutely good for women, salt is bad, eggs are bad, Celebrex and Vioxx are good? Medical thinking can be current, almost a fad.
I have had a few Md's who have suggested that there is no reason to do the MP since I seem (ugh) to always be limping into the office, one way or another. I have to disagree with the current thinking and go with what I think is the best course. There are MP successes (proof) they just don't see them for one reason or another, just like there is proof that the standard therapies aren't working, yet the are first choice. So when I say choose what works best for you, it is the equivalent of saying, choose the MP.
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CFS'93,Lyme/Borreliosis'02,hypothyroid,restless leg, sleep distb, Synthriod,Mirapex,Ambien,DHEA. 12/2/04-Benicar q6h, Mino start 12-31-04, Quercitin Q8H, 1,25D/D 11/04-68/18, 1/05-40/28, 9/05-14/9 PhaseII 4-19-05
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LaurelAy
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Posted: Thu Feb 23rd, 2006 18:09 |
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Meg,
Thanks for the papers for physicians and DVDs. I wasn't trying to debate, I was looking for insight from our experts. I never wish to debate the merits of other treatments I simple do not know enough. I am always looking for information to guide me thru the quagmire because I believe the MP is the best hope out there. Perhaps I have not said that clearly before.
Since I am asked about the MP I try to gather as much info as I can. People find it difficult to believe views without information to support the view. I am not trying to convert anyone, just give them something worth while to think about. A valid alternative for the skeptic, you might say.
The second part is more personal. I want to continue the MP, I think it is the best hope out there. But.. since being on the protocol I have developed noticeable swelling and nerve pain. The nerve pain had decreased substantially when off the MP to the point I felt I could start over. With each increase in the restart the swelling and pain notch up a bit.
I was looking for a complement to the MP in Questran treatment of neurotoxin, so that I COULD CONTINUE THE MP. If the pain goes back to where it was I could not be able to continue and this is my dilemma.
Thank you all for responding so beautifully and giving of your experiences and of yourselves. You are beautiful!
Laurel
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Lyme 2003/ start Benicar Mar'05 start Mino Mar'05/ start Ph2 May05. 25D=20/ 125D=58 Sythroid klonopin
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Aussie Barb
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Posted: Thu Feb 23rd, 2006 19:27 |
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"With each increase in the restart the swelling and pain notch up a bit."
Laurel
Therein seems to lie the answer. With MP, the aim is is to achieve and maintain tolerable Herxing (physically, mentally, and emotionally) by adjustment of meds combination, dosing and schedule as suited individually to you within the guidelines and combined with the Essential aspects of diligently avoiding Light and vitamin D.
we are happy to assist you in doing this in any way we can at your progress report.
all best, Barb ...
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Barb: Dx Inflammatory Disease Endocrine Imbalance 2003| Depression| 24+ years not Dx| MP Aug04| ABC of MP| MP Search|
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LaurelAy
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Posted: Fri Feb 24th, 2006 00:00 |
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Thank you Barb,
I have my stumbling block and I'm sure you and the MP will try every thing you can 
____________________
Lyme 2003/ start Benicar Mar'05 start Mino Mar'05/ start Ph2 May05. 25D=20/ 125D=58 Sythroid klonopin
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Posted: Fri Feb 24th, 2006 04:07 |
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Arlene,
I certainly agree that the medical establishment and big Pharma have flip-flopped on many medical recommendations. However, the scientific studies underlying those recommendations were shortsighted or flawed.
Dr. Marshall has meticulously and exquisitely described, at the molecular level, the pathogenesis of Th1 inflammation. Because of that, the protocol based on his hypothesis is effective and his scientific theory will stand the test of time.
Unfortunately, we cannot rely on even the best-known experts in the world to make recommendations that will not be discounted in a few years. It's important for everyone to use their critical thinking skills when deciding what medical recommendation they will follow.
Best,
Meg
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