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Frans
Member in Phase 2
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Posted: Sun Oct 29th, 2006 15:28 |
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Hi all,
I have read all about swollen lymph nodes, but still have a question.
First off, I have read the faq about this, my question runs deeper than that. We are not concerned about cancer or anything, since we think we understand that what is happening is 'only' herx.
I wil start by sharing what I know about the lymphatic system with regards to innate immunity, herxheimer and intracellular infection. I hope someone can fill in the blanks, so my question gets answered.
Here it goes:
The lymphatic system is extremely important and very, very widespread through our bodies.
Simply stated: Blood (plasma) carries nutrients to all our cells. The cells work their magic with these nutrients and release the garbage theis procees leaves between the cells into the fluid that is between our cells and that fluid goes into the lymphatic vessels where we start calling it Lymph (fluid).
This Lymph fluid is transported through the lymphatic vessles through the lymp nodes to the thoracic duct and gets cleaned up, filtered, etc.
After that the cleaned up fluid is again released into the bloodstream where we call it plasma again.
So the blood is the supermarket that provides the cells their food and the Lymphatic system is the garbage disposal, another side of the same coin, that's why it's so important.
So now we enter herx into the equasion:
We all know that the CWD bacteria we are out to kill are mostly, if not all, intracellular.
What this means is this: every body cell we have can get invaded by bacteria, CWD bacteria, viruses etc. For instance: a bacteria can invade a brain cell, a muscle cell and as we have learned, also an immune cell.
One of the things dr Marshall has pointed out as a reason for our TH1-diseases is an innate immunesystem that is not working properly.
But what does that mean, innate immunity?
The innate immune system at cell level has a mechanism to signal that is is invaded by a foreign pathogen. The innate immune system consists of more than this, but to keep it simple I only explain the cell level here.
So, if the innate immunesystem doesn't work, the pathogen will never get killed, since the invaded cell lacks the ability to signal that the pathogen is inside. This ability is INactivated by a deactivated, switched OFF VDR.
If the innate immunity starts working again however, eg because of benicar switching the VDR ON, or 1,25D itself doing this, all sorts of things start to happen.
The most important is that the invaded cells start signalling that they are invaded by a pathogen.
This is important, since at this point the actual herx start kicking in.
What happens is as follows: the cells signals that it is invaded; certain immune cells, eg macrophages, start ingesting and killing these cells and off course the pathogen that is in the cell.
After some time the macrophages kill themselves (apoptosis).
The debris of these macrophages enters the fluid between our cells and after this it enters the lymphatic system, leadin eg to swollen lymphnodes.
Lymph nodes, as I understand it, consist mainly of big queantities of several types of immune cells.
The debris in the Lymph fluid passes through these lymph nodes. The immunecells in these lymph nodes start eating up the debris.
It is only logical that the more cells (containing pathogens) get killed, the more immune cells will be needed in the lymph nodes. This is why they swell up.
Ok, so far my understanding of the lymphatic system with regards to herx. I know it is not complete, but should give an idea about the mechanism.
So now we come to my question:
Ellen has extremely swollen lymph nodes and it seems like every muscle has swollen up as well.
As we understand it, her innate immunity has been kick started by the beni, leading to loads of cells dying, causing a lot of debris that has to be cleaned up by the lymphatic system.
Since the lymphatic system has no actual pump, like the bloodstream has the heart as a pump, the lymphatic system is slow in taking up all floating debris, and probably the fluids the dying cells shed.
So we think the herx is more than the lymphatic system can handle at this point, leading to a build up of fluid between cells in her tissues.
Ellen has gained a lot of weight, but we think it is all just fluids that have to be processed by the lymphatic system and that will just take time and patience before the lymphatic system catches up again. So we are not worried one bit.
The only thing I do not understand is this:
the Lymph fluid is filtered, cleaned up and then released into the bloodstream again, but what will happen to the excess fluids (with debris) that are now in Ellen's tissues once they get cleaned/processed by the Lymphatic system ?? Surely the bloodstream cannot handle all these extra fluids ?
These fluids have led to considerable weight gain. Does anyone know if they finally end up in the bladder or something ?
I hope it is clear what I mean, Ellen hopes she will shed these extra kilograms asap 
Anyone have an answer ?
TIA
Frans
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Burn-out/nervous breakdown Jan01 125D 48 25D8.48 Ph1Nov06 ModPh2Jan07 Ph2Apr08 Cipramil Seroquel NoIRs lite exp r/t work cover up 25D3.9(Oct07)
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Aussie Barb
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Posted: Sun Oct 29th, 2006 15:46 |
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Frans
The aim or the key is to achieve and maintain tolerable symptoms (physically, mentally, and emotionally) by adjustment of meds dosing and schedule as suited individually to you within the guidelines.
see also HERXHEIMER REACTION / Immunopathology filelink.
What causes swelling?
Dr Marshall says: "All of those symptoms are caused by the disease. .... Your organs will be weak, that is caused by the inflammatory disease. Keep reading and you will be able to isolate the symptoms and understand them more fully as part of the recovery process, not anything you should be unduly concerned with.
If you are typical of the folks who come looking to the MP for relief, then you have a body which is very ill. It is systemically ill, there will be no part of it that has totally escaped damage."
" .... the biggest issue, IMO, is trying to micromanage the healing process. If you are typical of the folks who come looking to the MP for relief, then you have a body which is very ill. It is systemically ill, there will be no part of it that has totally escaped damage."
Thanks, all best, Barb ...
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Barb: Dx Inflammatory Disease Endocrine Imbalance 2003| Depression| 24+ years not Dx| MP Aug04| ABC of MP| MP Search|
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Frans
Member in Phase 2
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Posted: Sun Oct 29th, 2006 16:16 |
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Barb,
The herx is not too much in the sense that it's intolerable, it is just that we want to know what happens with all those fluids that are now waiting to be processed, once they áre processed by the lymphatic system.
The palliative side of the Beni is working wonders for Ellen with regards to pain.
We guess the excess fluids will leave the body via the bladder, but would like to know a bit more.
Thank you,
Sincerely, Frans
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Burn-out/nervous breakdown Jan01 125D 48 25D8.48 Ph1Nov06 ModPh2Jan07 Ph2Apr08 Cipramil Seroquel NoIRs lite exp r/t work cover up 25D3.9(Oct07)
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Aussie Barb
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Posted: Sun Oct 29th, 2006 16:29 |
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Frans
Tolerable is not only referring to pain, it is referring to keeping the immune response sustainable in every aspect in conjunction with your Dr as all a part of the long term recovering of body function as the healing occurs throughout the body including all the organs that process the waste more efficiently as they heal..
Thanks, Barb ...
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Barb: Dx Inflammatory Disease Endocrine Imbalance 2003| Depression| 24+ years not Dx| MP Aug04| ABC of MP| MP Search|
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Posted: Sun Oct 29th, 2006 21:38 |
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Frans,
The bladder is a receptacle...it merely holds urine. The kidneys maintain fluid balance and will eventually eliminate the excess fluid caused by the immunopathology of Th1 inflammation.
Here is A Brief Overview of Innate and Adaptive Immunity in Relation to the Marshall Protocol
Immunopathology in a more precise way to describe the managed host cell die-off during eradication of the pathogens which cause Th1 inflammation.
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P.Bear R.N.
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Posted: Sun Oct 29th, 2006 21:54 |
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Frans, After the lymphatic fluid is returned to the heart it is pumped though the blood system to be eventually cleaned by the liver. Any excess circulating fluid volume should be excreted by the kidneys into the bladder as you suspected. If Ellen has gained allot of weight that you think is fluid in the lymphatic bed and system you might want to research lymphedema.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lymphedema
Blocked or swollen lymph nodes can contribute to this. If weight gain is significant it might be a good idea to consult your health care provider, as fluid weight gain can be caused by other factors too; and a simple intervention can help certain cases. best, P.B.
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Frans
Member in Phase 2
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Posted: Sun Oct 29th, 2006 21:59 |
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Barb, Meg, thank you.
I understand the organs/processes might be affected by TH1, not working properly (yet), leading to (even) slower clearance of the debris caused by the herx / immunopathology.
I understand now where the excess fluids will end up and how that works, which is very good to hear.
From the faq about swollen lymph nodes I understand that this situation is not harmful and knowing what is happening makes the acceptance a lot easier for Ellen.
If she decides things are intolerable, we now know how to act.
Sincerely, Frans
____________________
Burn-out/nervous breakdown Jan01 125D 48 25D8.48 Ph1Nov06 ModPh2Jan07 Ph2Apr08 Cipramil Seroquel NoIRs lite exp r/t work cover up 25D3.9(Oct07)
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Joy
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Posted: Wed Nov 1st, 2006 17:26 |
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Frans,
You might want to search and see if you can find where you live a practitioner of lymphatic massage. I have not had a massage like this, but a friend of mine went several times and felt great relief from it. I believe you may also be able to find books on it, as it is not too hard to do on yourself since the lymph nodes are all on the front of the body. My friend picked up some of the moves and taught them to me (which I'm not going to say anything about here, since I am not a trained massage therapist and only got them second hand). I do them in the morning in bed before I get up (takes about one minute) and they do help get things moving.
So try and find a massage therapist to help move things along, or, if you can't locate one, a book on lymphatic massage. I just looked on Amazon.com and see there are several books and DVD's on lymphatic massage. (Note: VHS videos from the U.S. will not play in Europe.)
Best of luck,
JoyLast edited on Wed Nov 1st, 2006 17:30 by Joy
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CFS, FM, MCS, RA, low thyroid.
Began Ph 1 9/06, Phase 2 1/07. Stopped abx 11/07; stopped Benicar 5/09. 25D: 32,17,5,4,4
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Posted: Mon Nov 6th, 2006 08:38 |
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Frans,
My suggestion is to find an osteopathic physician who is skilled in manual techniques to assist and support proper functioning of the lymphatic system. Osteopathic manipulation can increase lymphatic flow.You can consult the World Osteopathic Health Organization and see if they have a current directory to help you locate a physician in your area, if you are interested.
Massage can increase lymphatic flow. http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v95/n6/abs/5612759a.html An osteopathic physician may offer this sort of therapeutic technique. You may be able to find a massage therapist who is trained in techniques to help the lymphatic system. You want to ensure you consult a professional who is familiar with therapeutic massage and working with chronic illness because there are precautions to be taken and perhaps contraindications.
These therapies can provide excellent support for patients on the MP who need adjunctive therapy, in my opinion. Once you find a professional who is has these skills, they might be able to direct a family member to training which will allow them to provide some supportive manual therapy at home.
Belinda
see also Massage & Physical therapy
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