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The Common Cold is really Immunopathology?
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expate
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 Posted: Tue Jan 6th, 2009 20:12

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I will try to figure out what it is I'm trying to ask.  :?  I guess what I'm asking is, what is the pathogenesis of a viral or bacterial infection that is not an autoimmune issue?  What is the scenario when we are sick without a compromised immune system?  What is the pathway of disease, not autoimmune disease?  If we understood that, we could understand the difference between a "normal" response (do you have symptoms while fighting Mr. Rhinovirus when you have a fully functioning immune system/response, or do you not have symptoms because your fully functioning immune system wipes them out before they increase in population to have their cell die off cause cytokines to be released in large numbers?)

Arrrg, I do find it frustrating that this forum is all typing.  I think I do better when I actually converse with a person.  I know I'm making ignorant assumptions, not having any basic understanding of science, that could get me on the path to sensible questions if I could just have a conversation.

Ah well, I've tried to express myself.  Sorry, I'm just not that capable.

Odette



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 Posted: Tue Jan 6th, 2009 22:22

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jcwat101 wrote:  and then when you are really well, you don't get them hardly at all (perhaps the immune system is so strong it wipes them out before they even multiply enough to produce any noticeable immune reaction).... 

...I think that the ultimate endpoint for us all when we get really well is to not get colds at all  :) (hope so, anyway)

Joyce Waterhouse

WOW Joyce!  Great ideas.  Soooo, the MP maybe a cure for the common cold as well!!!  That would be great.:cool: 

Think how much research money  has been spent trying to find that "windmill" to no avail. :(

I didn't experience colds or flu for years either before the sarc presented.  Now I seem to get one a month (being around grand children).  Looking forward to that ultimate end point you describe. 

Gene



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 Posted: Tue Jan 6th, 2009 22:45

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I haven't had a cold for nearly 30 years.   I'd love to have one!



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 Posted: Wed Jan 7th, 2009 03:22

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If a cold is really immunopathology...then, I take that to mean the immune system is working, therefore you have cold symptoms.
If the immune system is not working, no cold symptoms. (Explains to me why so many people with serious illlness say they never get colds)
I don't really understand what Odette is trying to ask....but if it's what I think it is....perhaps what she is calling "disease" is simply an accumulation of too many CWD or other types of bacteria or virus. Requiring another type of antibiotic to help the immune system fight it off.

What other kind of disease is there?



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Rico
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 Posted: Wed Jan 7th, 2009 03:49

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So, since I've never thought of myself as being seriously ill as most people on the MP are, although I realize now that my illness was worse than I thought (depression, brain fog and anxieties among the worst), I guess that would mean that since I was having frequent colds every year, my immune system was still working? I haven't had a cold since I started the MP, for 2.5 years now and I have seen improvements.



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Over-Heated in PHX
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 Posted: Wed Jan 7th, 2009 10:47

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My experience is like that also, Rico, with Morgellons lesions on top of the stack.

Here, is it not important to seperate the concept of the adaptive and innate immune system?  If our innate immune system was operating, would our adaptive immune system really get an opportunity to be called to battle?

Could this be a reason that people have what seem like opposite responses?

As in, if the innate immune system has begun to operate, might it prevent the need for an adaptive immune response (cold symptoms).

Still, :Pver-Heated in PHX

Last edited on Wed Jan 7th, 2009 10:54 by Over-Heated in PHX



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NorCalJim
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 Posted: Wed Jan 7th, 2009 11:24

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I've also been puzzled by the fact that prior to the MP I hadn't had a real cold for about 8 years. Of course I must have been exposed to just as many bugs as everyone around me so I'm not sure why my immune system never responded to them or how or if I cleared them without any symptoms.

Since starting the MP, I've had more colds and sinus/eye/ear infections in the first 20 months than the previous 10 years.

Joyce's explanation seems to fit my situation pretty well so far...

NorCalJim



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 Posted: Wed Jan 7th, 2009 11:31

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jcwat101 wrote: As to Afternoon Tea's question, I would mention what a retired cold expert I know told me.  He said the most common cause of colds, the rhinovirus doesn't damage epithilial cells -- so it isn't really harming the body's cells.
Another interesting thing he told me was that 25% of colds are asymptomatic.  Some people can clear a cold virus without getting any symptoms -- they will find the person is shedding the virus etc... and they will have no symptoms at all. 

I suspect that the imbalance in the immune response caused by the colds is what can lead to complications that arise from colds.


So, just because one doesn't get symptoms of a cold, doesn't mean one doesn't clear the virus.  I also found a study that showed that people who have Parkinson's Disease almost never have colds and even in the years before they get Parkinson's Disease, they don't tend to have colds.

Anyway, I think it is more complex most likely than what I have stated in my posts, but it seems that whether or not one gets colds is not a simple linear reflection of one's state of health.

I don't really understand expate's question, so will leave it with the above statement and suggest we not get too worried about this issue.

Joyce Waterhouse



Makes sense:) This one is abit overly simplified, but could it be something like this?

1: Very high cwd (microbiota) load: likely to not react to the viruses like the Rhino, if you get a harmful virus you might die from it.

2: High cwd load: might react to the Rhino, the virus are able to grow on mass before immune system kicks in, you end up having the cold a long time.

3: Moderate cwd load: likely to get the cold, viruses are able to grow on mass, immune system catch on quicker than those with high cwd load. Your not sick as long, but more violently than those with high cwd load.

4: Low cwd load: Sometimes you get sick, but not as violent as those with moderate load, and you clear the virus pretty quick:)

5: Very Low cwd load: you get infected, but clear it before it reaches large amounts in your body, leaving you without symptoms (quick and effective).

??

Last edited on Wed Jan 7th, 2009 14:02 by Bane

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 Posted: Wed Jan 7th, 2009 11:51

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Among parents with Autistic children
it is a common observation that their child never have any cold or flu when others do have.
To them it is a sign of getting healthier when after som treatments most often chelation  their child like others get a common cold,
thought of beeing a sign that immune system have started react like it should..
Geir Flatabø



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 Posted: Wed Jan 7th, 2009 13:42

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I think what Bane says may be pretty much the case.  However, the very very high CWD load may not exhibit as the person appearing very very sick.  It may not be simply correlated with total load, but the nature of the bacteria and immune system factors.  That may be why I know a couple people who almost never got colds even as children, and later developed sarc or multiple sclerosis.   They weren't obviously very sick as children or young adults and worked full time etc..., but the process was definitely operating as shown by the serious illness apparent later (also like the Parkinson's cases).

As to expate's question, I think what you are asking isn't necessarily clearly known for many diseases, because we don't know how much CWD most people have when they come down with these illnesses or the role it is playing.  So, the diseases have not been studied from that perspective.  Maybe most of the diseases people get, they would avoid getting or clear easily or even asymptomatically, if they were free of CWD and had an optimally functioning immune system.  I don't really know.

And each disease is different.  In some diseases, the organism produces very toxic products or has other virulence factors that play a very important role.    I borrowed an infectious disease textbook from a medical library and it was extremely heavy -- could barely carry it (and that was only one volume of a two volume set -- with very thin pages and tiny print)  :)

Influenza is different from rhinovirus (it apparently can damage cells), but I did just read that only 2 out of 3 people who acquire influenza exhibit symptoms of it -- yet they are just as infectious as anyone else and apparently they clear it just fine.

Joyce Waterhouse

Last edited on Wed Jan 7th, 2009 13:44 by jcwat101



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 Posted: Wed Jan 7th, 2009 14:17

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sorry for mixing the cold with the flu (edited). Yea i think your right, it's way more complex. I like the answer Trevor gave to the Brazilian doctor who asked at ICA2008 if all humans have the microbiota.

Trevor's answers "Yes, all human beings have this microbiota. Not all of the microbiota becomes pathogenic."

"Only those that collect a particular set of genomes that causes the human body to function in a way that is recognized as a disease"

 

Last edited on Wed Jan 7th, 2009 14:51 by Bane

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 Posted: Wed Jan 7th, 2009 14:31

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Forgot to mention in my previous post that although I haven't been that ill and got frequent colds/flus prior to starting the MP, my wife who has been very ill and it's been said she must have a very high bacterial load due to the length of time it's taking her to progress on the MP due to the difficulty of IP, also rarely had colds prior to the starting the MP.



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 Posted: Fri Jan 9th, 2009 13:04

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I’ve been following this discussion with interest, trying to relate it to my own experiences. I've found Joyce's and Bane's explanations rather fascinating, although for me there seems to be at least one other factor involved, i.e., food.
 
For my first 35 years I ate the SAD (Standard American Diet) and experienced colds and flus on a rather regular schedule, once in the fall and again in the spring when the weather would change. Always the sinuses would be alternately stuffy and runny and phlegm from the chest would start discharging after a few days. Sometimes there would be just a cold (no fever); usually it would be what we called “flu” (with fever) or maybe it was only a “bad” cold. It would usually leave after 7 to 14 days, with or without antibiotics, which I usually refused after my adolescent years.
 
At age 35 (21 years ago) I started making rather radical dietary changes, first dropping dairy and many processed foods out of my diet. I noticed very soon a lessening of severity and duration of colds and flus, although they still came around at least once a year. Gut symptoms (bloating, cramping, loose stools, extreme fatigue-inducing discomfort) likewise began to ameliorate significantly.
 
By 11 years ago I had dropped all grains, potatoes, vegetable oils and sweets of all kinds, adopting what’s known as a “Paleo” diet, i.e., eating only those kinds of foods available in a state of nature with a sharp stick or stone. Gut symptoms and flus (fever episodes) then completely ceased and colds gradually diminished in severity and duration, down to essentially one-day bouts of sneezing and runny nose, but never any color in the discharge or bronchial involvement as in pre-diet days.
 
For the 10 months I’ve been on the MP, I’ve had 2 bouts of flu-like disability with fever, achy muscles and fatigue, although only the last one put me in bed (for 2 days on the 2nd & 3rd day after starting full dose Z). And, I’ve had a couple instances of diarrhea, apparently non-food related. But, there’s been no more gut or sinus symptoms like I had pre-Paleo.

 
Here’s a quote from an enlightened veterinarian that I found helpful some years ago in understanding my experience:
 
Principle number one: The foods that are bad for us are bad in numerous ways. The “four horsemen”...gluten (from the grains wheat, barley, rye), casein, soy, and corn terrorize us in more ways than simply inducing villous atrophy, which results in the chronic malabsorption of the essential nutrients that we have covered. These foods provide staggering levels of glutamate (and aspartate), estrogens, allergens, and lectins, and when prepared for consumption, act as carriers of many of man’s worst creations in the form of GMO’s, hormones, and chemical additives… The “four horsemen” induce immune suppression and incite chronic tissue inflammation and damage…
http://www.dogtorj.net/id23.html

 
Hmm—could it be that immune suppression (or perhaps overload of toxins?) by the “four horsemen” somehow helps the entrenchment of the CWD nasties, which Dr. Marshall has shown are the actual culprits which “incite chronic tissue inflammation and damage?”
 
And is the rhinovirus or flu virus merely a trigger that sends the immune system into “clean-out” mode so that it can mount an effective response to the virus at the same time that it discharges through the lymph system the stored toxic waste from metabolically inappropriate foods?
 
And can others avoid gut and sinus symptoms (immunopathology?) by diet restriction as apparently is the case with me?
 
Raw Paleo Guy wants to know! :D

 



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expate
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 Posted: Sat Jan 10th, 2009 19:20

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Over-Heated in PHX wrote: ...Here, is it not important to separate the concept of the adaptive and innate immune system?  If our innate immune system was operating, would our adaptive immune system really get an opportunity to be called to battle?

Could this be a reason that people have what seem like opposite responses?

As in, if the innate immune system has begun to operate, might it prevent the need for an adaptive immune response (cold symptoms).

Still, :Pver-Heated in PHX

I didn't know we had more than one immune system. 

:?dette
edited for typo

Last edited on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 19:23 by expate



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 Posted: Sat Jan 10th, 2009 19:24

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immune_system

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innate_immune_system

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptive_immune_system

One system, different parts.)

expate
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 Posted: Sat Jan 10th, 2009 19:48

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Oh.

Thanks,
:cool:dette



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 Posted: Sun Jan 11th, 2009 16:12

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Hi Odette,

I sent you a message with my more rudimentary explanation that I wouldn't post to the main board!

Try looking at the CWD  -  Cell Wall Deficient threads that are listed in the "C" section of the ABC's of the MP.  I think that is where I got the story initially.

Here is a link to the ABC's

http://www.marshallprotocol.com/view_topic.php?id=2135&forum_id=32&jump_to=36159#p36159

Still, :PH in PHX



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 Posted: Tue Jan 13th, 2009 17:42

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I wonder if these cold groups (many colds, no colds, normal colds) correlate with the reactions to Benicar (feel better, feel worse, no change)?



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expate
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 Posted: Tue Jan 13th, 2009 19:52

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Interesting.  How to explain the overall arch with the underlying anomalies?

Odette



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 Posted: Sun Jan 25th, 2009 03:46

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Well, I guess I spoke too soon. For the first time in over 2-1/2 years (all of it on the MP), I caught a bad cold. Doesn't sound like a long time for many people, perhaps, but I used to get several a year.

Well, my child (home-schooled) was exposed to a lot of kids recently after starting the first class of a new activity and caught a bad cold, including fever. Appears I got it from my child.

So, not sure what this really means, but I'd guess part of my immune system must be working...? I guess I'll have to wait and see how long it lasts - they used to last a long time.

I was also thinking whether my child had a flu or cold - well, my wife (also on the MP) has also caught this cold (found out this morning) - she thinks our child has a flu due to the nature and degree of symptoms. I would call mine a cold. But we all got this the same week. So, I would think that the difference between a cold and flu is simply the degree of immune response to it.

Last edited on Sun Jan 25th, 2009 04:14 by Rico



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