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The Marshall Protocol Study Site > PROF. MARSHALL'S PERSPECTIVE > Prof. Marshall's Perspective > Cathelicidin is Badly Deficient in Seriously ill Sarcoidosis Patients


Cathelicidin is Badly Deficient in Seriously ill Sarcoidosis Patients
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roelof
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 Posted: Sat Jul 7th, 2012 23:28

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hello,

I was a heavy cofee drinker. 5 cups per day was not uncommen. A month ago ( before this thread was giving the message, I stoped coffe, to get rid of the constant slumbering headache. The result is that the head ache is less, but not gone, but energy is much more. I do not need to cofee anymore. For the night shades I do not eat them for a long time. As this is the food that was in europa tousand and more years ago, roman cookbooks can help you with lots of good recepies. With the good care of my wife I only gain weight instead of losing it because of uneatable bad food.

erik ( roelof)



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MP start Feb'11 (no breaks) | Sarcoidosis '10, hypertension '05 | lungs, heart, foot pain, hand pain, cognitive | last 25D= 4 ng/mL april 2014
Pamela H-F
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 Posted: Fri Jul 13th, 2012 07:17

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How is cathelicidin measured? Is it something that can be checked to determine how seriously ill you are?

Pam



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dietary changes-1/08,Noirs-4/08, phase 1-5/08 Sarcoidosis dx 1982 in Lymph, dx again 2007 in skin and lungs. Osteopenia, Anemia, low Adrenals, D25 <10 1-20-12.
wrotek
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 Posted: Fri Jul 13th, 2012 13:08

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Interesting idea, i think, to measure it. Would be an additional confirmation of a disease process.

Last edited on Fri Jul 13th, 2012 14:01 by wrotek



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jrfoutin
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 Posted: Fri Jul 13th, 2012 15:34

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"How is it measured?"

Good question Pamela H-F.

This is what I got from the abstract of the article Dr Marshall linked. In simple terms there were two different types of tests used. I've bolded them here:

Bronchoalveolar lavage (BAL) cells from sarcoidosis patients and healthy controls were analyzed for mRNA expression of cathelicidin, vitamin D receptor (VDR) and the VDR coactivator steroid receptor coactivator-3 (SRC3) by quantitative PCR. Cathelicidin-derived peptide LL-37 was determined by immunocytochemistry.

PCR
Wikipedia isn't perfect, but gives a brief overview with pictures here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_polymerase_chain_reaction

Use is up to doctor and if you and your insurance want to pay for it, see Wikipedia section on: Applications of real-time polymerase chain reaction.

You can also read about PCR testing in MPKB.org:
http://mpkb.org/home/pathogenesis/microbiota/detecting#dna_and_rna_amplification_techniques

Immunocytochemistry
Also from wikipedia:
"Immunocytochemistry ... is performed on samples of intact cells that have had most, if not all, of their surrounding extracellular matrix removed. This includes cells grown within a culture, deposited from suspension, or taken from a smear."

______________

COFFEE/COCOA
I never have had one cup of coffee my entire life but managed to get Sarcoidosis anyway. Other things likely messed up my VDR and/or cathelicidin downstream from VDR, in other words.

Cocoa has been researched, some funded by the companies that sell it (sigh). One takeaway point seems to be with tryptophan/seratonin pathway. There may be others:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theobromine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_chocolate#Health

I like to think early Sarcies on the MP appreciated dark cocoa for Theobromine (bitter alkaloid) to help quell irritating sarc bark cough (dry, unproductive), or because under tongue olmesartan tastes better that way (wink).

But as alkaloids are soluble in water, maybe hot cocoa is a slightly different beast than a square of dark chocolate. I didn't eat chocolate until my 20's, although I drank hot cocoa (laced with milk and sugar no doubt) once in a while as a winter treat.

For now, I enjoy dark chocolate occasionally when I can afford it. No problem--not "taken" as a drug or supplement. Cocoa I make with water as a drink is less expensive and I make it without milk or sugar. Also no problem, but I have noticed diuretic and other positive effects per mood and dulling hunger. Too much and night foot leg cramps result.

That's while I was taking olmesartan, which is likely different from any tests ran in other studies, and purely anecdotal. I have no idea what others on MP might notice about themselves.

So mostly, I think of it is a nice inexpensive snack that doesn't bother my sleep per caffeine (amount of caffeine in cocoa is dramatically less than coffee), but might wake me with leg/foot cramps if I do it too much (tried it to see what would happen).

Your mileage may vary.



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leroybrown
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 Posted: Sat Jul 14th, 2012 04:00

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"Bronchoalveolar lavage" doesn't sound like a lot of fun either.

I also get leg / foot cramps from dark chocolate. I just assumed it was the extra potassium and I usually take a magnesium when that happens. But then there's the chocolate laced with crunchy bits of sea salt, the salt would balance the potassium!

Deb



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wrotek
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 Posted: Sat Jul 14th, 2012 08:24

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roelof wrote:
hello,

I was a heavy cofee drinker. 5 cups per day was not uncommen. A month ago ( before this thread was giving the message, I stoped coffe, to get rid of the constant slumbering headache. The result is that the head ache is less, but not gone, but energy is much more. I do not need to cofee anymore. For the night shades I do not eat them for a long time. As this is the food that was in europa tousand and more years ago, roman cookbooks can help you with lots of good recepies. With the good care of my wife I only gain weight instead of losing it because of uneatable bad food.

erik ( roelof)
Very interesting that quitting coffee gave you more energy. Do you drink other sources of caffeine?



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roelof
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 Posted: Sat Jul 14th, 2012 08:59

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hello wrotek,

I drink tea, but as dutch we drink weak thea. But yes it is not the coffeine that does do the evil. I do not know what it is, but not drinking cofee seems to do me good.

best regards Erik (Roelof)



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MP start Feb'11 (no breaks) | Sarcoidosis '10, hypertension '05 | lungs, heart, foot pain, hand pain, cognitive | last 25D= 4 ng/mL april 2014
Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Sat Jul 14th, 2012 14:13

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There are bugs in the tea leaves and beans. I don't know if they are significant to our GI tract, but who knows? The traditional methods of processing haven't change much in decades...

An enlightening test is to put an old used teabag in a corner and let it grow funghi over the span of a couple of weeks :)
 
 

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 Posted: Sat Jul 14th, 2012 15:40

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Dr Trevor Marshall wrote:
There are bugs in the tea leaves and beans. I don't know if they are significant to our GI tract, but who knows? The traditional methods of processing haven't change much in decades...

An enlightening test is to put an old used teabag in a corner and let it grow funghi over the span of a couple of weeks :)
 
 


Dr Marshall, do spores survive boiling process ? We would need some sort of home made amateur sterile incubation, right ?



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Sat Jul 14th, 2012 15:43

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Used tea-bags have presumably been in the hot water :)

But we don't know, maybe the microbes are beneficial? Something has to repopulate the gut after antibiotics have been used...
 

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 Posted: Sat Jul 14th, 2012 21:06

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Interesting discussion.  Dr. Marshall, sounds like your thinking on microbes in the gut is evolving and that perhaps there is such a thing as "beneficial" microbes?



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 Posted: Sat Jul 14th, 2012 21:58

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I am not sure about "beneficial" microbes, I have still to be shown definitive evidence on that one. However 'relatively harmless' does appear to be a reachable goal :)
 

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 Posted: Sat Jul 14th, 2012 22:42

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Dr. Marshall,
If it is true that there will be gut bugs, then relatively harmless would be of great benefit, wouldn't it? Something to be said about having neighbors that aren't harmful.
Best regards,
Mike



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jrfoutin
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 Posted: Mon Jul 16th, 2012 16:34

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Wrotek,
Very interesting that quitting coffee gave you more energy.

Actually, two things people assume almost routinely to get "more energy" are drink coffee and exercise. Both of those actually can make the problem worse.

See next newsletter for more details...

Immune competency is best way to get rid of microbes, get more energy. So glad there is MP!

Best to all--Janet



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wrotek
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 Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2012 12:38

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Dr Trevor Marshall wrote: Well, coffee probably changes hundreds of other pathways too, but, from this study,  it would seem that anything increasing TNF-alpha would interfere with gene expression by the VDR.
 

So this means that inflammation in this case, supresses immunity ? I think this is good question for next conference - When does the inflammation suppress immunity ? When inflammation goes hand in hand with immunity and when it starts to impair immunity ?etc...

Or maybe inflammation is bad when it is tricked to be generated by microbes, or by ingestion of some irritant like coffee, gluten, solanecae plants...whatever body responds to.

Last edited on Mon Aug 13th, 2012 12:42 by wrotek



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Limburg
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 Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2012 12:55

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Your question is my question too Wrotek, and I'm also curious if it is so that inflammation supresses in fact immunity, makes me wonder in what degree...



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wrotek
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 Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2012 12:58

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I think it can suppress, but that does not make sense right ? Unwanted inflammation uses energy of the body, I think, and depletes its energy in long run. Also it damages tissues. And after inflammation there should be phase of rebuilding, but if inflammation does not stop, rebuilding does not come ....

Last edited on Mon Aug 13th, 2012 12:58 by wrotek



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 Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2012 13:18

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It does not make sense and it sounds like some way of disbalance. But why? Simplifying you can say the body always tries to reach a balance. So why disbalance? Bacteria in disguise?


I whish I understood this puzzle, but who doesn't?



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LR
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 Posted: Thu Aug 16th, 2012 14:36

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With respect to Paisley Kilt's post about an anti-inflammatory diet, I have researched this. It is easy in theory. Just drink and eat pure water and organic vegetables, with a few (preferably fresh) beans (not soy -- bad for brain and thyroid and now genetically modified) and some nuts (not peanuts due to mold).
Basically inflammatory foods are meat, dairy products, cheese, and eggs, sugar, and to a lesser degree, fish. Most grains and nightshade family vegetables are included as inflammatory.
However, any food can have an inflammatory effect on the body if one is allergic or intolerant to it. So it also depends upon one's personal sensitivities.
Current diets in developed countries are based on refined wheat, vast quantities of meat, dairy products, sugar, refined fats, and now chemicals, all of which is unprecedented in any civilization preceding us.
Most traditions over millenium have emphasized an anti-inflammatory diet for chronic illness, including the current European naturopaths. But there has been a start to put it onto a more scientific footing. A few popular books are based to varying degrees on more recent scientific evidence.
Currently, the more scientific approach tends to link an anti-inflammatory diet with body Ph. In other words, an anti-inflammatory diet is generally very similar to a diet which creates alkalizing conditions internally in the body. The degree a food is alkalizing on the body is measurable. An alkaline state in the body creates conditions which promote the parasympathic systems of the body to operate to a greater degree. The parasympathetic state is operating when one is sleeping and/or healing.
Recent research into the electrical systems of the body are also beginning, and they show that body Ph -- as in batteries -- is a critical element in the effective functioning of our electrical impulses and the way our health is impacted by these. We also know that for other life forms, the Ph of their environment is a critical factor in survival and thriving. For example, most plants must be grown in close to neutral or slightly alkaline soils, whereas blueberries, rhododendrons and azaleas require more acid soil to survive and produce well.

The important thing in determining what an alkalizing diet is, is the impact on the body subsequent to metabolizing the food. Thus foods that one classes as acidic -- such as lemons, limes, tomatoes, etc, -- actually have an alkalizing impact on body Ph. Vinegar stays very acidifying. Alkaline foods are vegetables, beans and some lentils, with wide differences between them -- ranging from strongly alkaline -- sprouts, cucumbers, avacados -- to only slightly alkaline --like potatoes. Nuts range from slightly alkaline (almonds) to slightly acidifying.
Meat is very highly acidifying, as is vinegar, hard cheese, and eggs. Fish is acidifying, but less so than meat and hard cheeses. Unripened cheese is less acidifying, but still quite inflammatory.

The only fruits which are alkalizing are lemons, limes, avacados, and tomatoes since the rest are made somewhat acidifying by the large amounts of sugar in them. Nonetheless, fruits are much less acidifying than meat, cheese, eggs, sugar, etc, and they have anti-oxidants and high level of nutrients as well. Most cereal grains are also acidifying, but again, much less than meat, vinegar etc. The only two that are not acidifying, that I know of, are buckwheat and millet (both of which are fruits or seeds rather than strictly classed as grains). I suspect that many of the new “traditional” grains that are actually classified as seeds rather than grains – like teff, amaranth and quinoa might continue to act in the body as seeds, rather than grains, when analyzed for their impact on body Ph. Thus maybe they will also be slightly alkalizing or neutral, rather than mildly acid as rice is, for example, but I have not seen the tables for these, so can not say for sure.
One of the current popular books which seeks to promote an alkalizing diet is “Sick and Tired” by Robert Young. Interestingly he used to promote pro-biotics, but has revised his advice based on his research. He now says his evidence shows that there is no intrinsic difference between “good” and “bad” bacteria. He claims to have seen “good” microbes under an electron microscope transform themselves into “bad” ones. He believes that the body Ph contributes to the state in which microbes express themselves – as beneficial or malign.

There was also a comment about whether inflammation is good or bad. I do not understand this deeply. But from what I understand of the MP, if our chronic illness is caused by cell wall deficient bacteria parasitizing macrophages, which then create inflammation to call in new white blood cells to parasitize, then inflammation in chronic illness is to be avoided. The only time I would think that inflammation would be a good thing was when white blood cells were appropriately killing invading bacteria. In general, that would be more self-limiting – when the bacteria were gone, the inflammation would die down. That would presumably happen only when one was either acutely ill, or on a routine, low level basis on the borders of our bodies with the environment – gut, respiratory system, skin, other mucus membranes. In such cases, we don’t need extraneous sources of inflammation from food to fight these battles. Our immune system will ramp an appropriate attack when needed – provided it has not been sabotaged by cell wall deficient bacteria inside our immune cells. Thus, if we have chronic inflammation, this is not a good thing, and a diet which aggravates it, is also not good thing for our health. But if we were to cut our hand with a rusty nail, we would benefit from some inflammation for a short time, until it heals. Our bodies, if not already overburdened by inflammation would produce enough white blood cells without us needing to eat inflammatory substances to do so. Maybe someone with more expertise than I can correct me if this understanding about inflammation is incorrect in some details above.

In any case, the main difficulty with following an anti-inflammatory diet is that in our society our taste buds have been so corrupted that we use food as an entertainment, rather than purely nourishment. What I find helps is to use spices and fresh herbs to give taste and interest to healthy alkalizing foods -- but that may not be enough for many people who have not worked at it extensively.

What I do notice is that when I eat meat, cheese, sugar, etc I am subject to muscle cramps which I have to combat by taking magnesium. When I eat alkaline consistently, the muscle cramps completely disappear since I am no longer buffering my internal chemistry with alkalizing salts drawn from my muscles and bones.
LR

Last edited on Thu Aug 16th, 2012 14:38 by LR



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Thu Aug 16th, 2012 14:43

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Oh Noes ! :) But I love my (imported) cheese :)


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