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DianeC
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Posted: Mon Jan 8th, 2007 19:47 |
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Hi All,
I have some questions regarding periodontal disease?? My husband has periodontal disease. He has an appointment later this month to have the pockets and gums scraped. I am extremely concerned about him having this procedure. A few years ago they wanted him to undergo this and we were glad that he didn't. I am worried about the bacteria reaching his heart.
He was on doxycycline for 3 years and his gums never looked better but taking doxycyline long term causes its own problems as I can well attest to. He is 74 years old and refuses to go on the MP.
Before every dental procedure they have him take 4 500mg Amoxicillan which I realize now contribute to the formation of the cell wall dificient bacteria.
I remember seeing something on this site regarding just taking Minocycline and that even though he will not be cured, he will fare much better than the alternative of gum surgery. I believe that I also saw it in relation to cancer which he has also had from 1996 and to this day has remained cancer free.
Before each and every dental appointment should he be taking either minocycline or doxycycline instead of the amoxicillan?? What dosage and how many?
I know that he would rather go back on doxy than face this procedure but would minocyline be the better choice? If so, what dosage and how many?
I am hoping that someone will have some suggestions. I just don't know how to help him. Thank you!
DianeC
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chronic fatigue/osteoporosis osteoarthritis, 9/05 25-D 40 1,25-D 52 1/06 Benicar 40mg Q6H Mino 28Jan @25mg q48h Mino 12Mar @50mg q72h Mino 15April @75mg q72h Mino 1May 100mg 5/06 Phase 2 D-25 18 10/06 Phase3 D-25 20 5/07 D-25 under 7
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Aunt Diana
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Posted: Mon Jan 8th, 2007 19:59 |
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Hi Diane,
This will be frustrating news since your husband refuses to do the MP, but here goes:
All my life I have had gum and teeth problems, I had periodental work done in my early 20's and have had to struggle with it ever since. I am the only person I know who considers a toothbrush the only thing I must have.....I flossed and brushed and used every kind of help I could to make my gums healthier. No avail.
Along comes the MP....today my gums are so tight and solid and healthy that I can't even believe it. I have been able to give up my obsessive flossing and brushing and I have the healthiest gums of my lifetime. Right before gong on the MP, I had reconciled to the fact that one area of my mouth would always be bleeding, no matter what I did. No more.
You and I know this is not a conincidence. I am very grateful to see this undeniable change. It only took about 3-4 months on the MP for me to notice this change.
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Lyme 1987, neuro cardio fatigue achiness brain fog depression, anxiety. Pacemaker, D.1,25 32; D <5; 12/07 <6, Oxycodone, lorazapam, benedryl, zantac, colase, Noirs, cover-up or avoid sun, house <30lux. Feb 08 Phase 3. 6/08 D <4, D1,25 21
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DianeC
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Posted: Mon Jan 8th, 2007 20:16 |
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Hi Diana ,
Thank you so much for your quick reply!! That is such great news that your gums had responed so quickly and in only 3-4 months on MP!!! I am so glad for you!
I only wish that there was some way to convince my husband to start on the MP Yes, it is very frustrating
Best wishes to you!
DianeC
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chronic fatigue/osteoporosis osteoarthritis, 9/05 25-D 40 1,25-D 52 1/06 Benicar 40mg Q6H Mino 28Jan @25mg q48h Mino 12Mar @50mg q72h Mino 15April @75mg q72h Mino 1May 100mg 5/06 Phase 2 D-25 18 10/06 Phase3 D-25 20 5/07 D-25 under 7
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Carole
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Posted: Mon Jan 8th, 2007 20:26 |
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Hello, Diane!
I am one who for years was given the Amoxicillin prior to dental work because of my cardiac issues. However, since I have been on the MP, my dentist has agreed to my request of maintaining the MP meds in lieu of the traditional premeds.
You may share these with your husband and dentist to support your beliefs:
Can I use Doxycycline instead of Minocycline?
Why isn't Ceftin or amoxicillin included in the Marshall Protocol?
and Topic: Amoxicillin 'allergy' Could it be immunopathology?
Since the MP is not part of the equation at this time for your husband, perhaps your knowledge of the science acquired on this site may effectively contribute to the decision of your medical professional.
Best wishes to you and to your husband! . . . Carole
Dental problems and Th1 inflammation
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PWC 50+ yrs| 20+ CFS FM Pituitary Thyroid IBS Cardiac OA Migraines +ANA Osteoporosis 2/04 Mediastinoscopy ~Sarc Story |1/04 1/06: 125D=85,34; 25D=41,14| ACE=68,43|
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DianeC
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Posted: Mon Jan 8th, 2007 20:59 |
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Hello Carole,
Thank you for your prompt reply and for the links! It did not, however, lead me to the answer of whether taking minocycline alone (not being on MP) would be the better choice than undergoing the gum surgery?
Are the tetracycline class of meds (minocycline and doxycycline) equivalent in the dosage taken to the amoxicillan and other cell wall inhibiting abx before a dental procedure? If one takes 4 500mg of amoxicillan 1 hour before the dental procedure, then if they were taking Mino or doxy instead, would they take the equivalent of that dosage? How would they take it for longer term use to help treat the gum problem?
I fully understand the science of the MP but how would one take the minocycline if not on MP? What dosage and how often?
Thank you and Best wishes
DianeC
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chronic fatigue/osteoporosis osteoarthritis, 9/05 25-D 40 1,25-D 52 1/06 Benicar 40mg Q6H Mino 28Jan @25mg q48h Mino 12Mar @50mg q72h Mino 15April @75mg q72h Mino 1May 100mg 5/06 Phase 2 D-25 18 10/06 Phase3 D-25 20 5/07 D-25 under 7
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Meg Mangin R.N.
Research Team
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Posted: Mon Jan 8th, 2007 23:58 |
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The dentist is concerned with using an antibiotic that will kill the most bacteria likely to be stirred up by this invasive procedure. We cannot tell you if minocycline or doxycycline will be as effective as amoxicillin in this situation.
Amoxicillin may be necessary to be sure the cell wall bacteria do not invade his body systemically. That may be more important than the fact that amoxicillin might encourage the growth of intracellular bacteria.
The usual dose of minocycline to kill an acute bacterial infection is 100mg twice daily. The MP dosing and schedule of minocycline as used in phase one might be effective at killing some intracellular bacteria. Be alert also for other inflammatory symptoms that may become apparent. We cannot say if minocycline alone will prevent the need for a dental procedure.
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DianeC
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Posted: Tue Jan 9th, 2007 01:24 |
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Hello Meg,
Thank you for your explanation and particularly the difference between when and why the different abx are used!
Would it be advisable to have him start on the Minocycline 100mg twice a day right away or should he start at a lower dose and work up to the 100mg twice a day (Possibly start at 50mg per day for a few days to see how he reacts?) Then start the higher dose which would kill some bacteria before the end of the month at which time he will be undergoing the procedure?
Then he will take the amoxicillin right before the procedure to protect him systemically.
What inflammatory symptoms in particular should he watch for? He tolerated doxycycline for 3 years without a problem but I realize that the mino does target more species of bacteria.
I just remembered one other thing that may be important.....he is pretty much on the same diet as I am as far as eliminating Vitamin D and folic acid and has been since last January.
Thank you!!
DianeC
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chronic fatigue/osteoporosis osteoarthritis, 9/05 25-D 40 1,25-D 52 1/06 Benicar 40mg Q6H Mino 28Jan @25mg q48h Mino 12Mar @50mg q72h Mino 15April @75mg q72h Mino 1May 100mg 5/06 Phase 2 D-25 18 10/06 Phase3 D-25 20 5/07 D-25 under 7
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Meg Mangin R.N.
Research Team
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Posted: Tue Jan 9th, 2007 11:03 |
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| That sounds like a good plan if it's okay with his doctor. I mentioned inflammatory symptoms because their appearance may convince your husband that he needs the MP.
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DianeC
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Posted: Tue Jan 9th, 2007 12:32 |
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Thank you Meg! I have just called his doctor to order the prescription! 
DianeC
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Robertrr
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Posted: Tue Jan 9th, 2007 15:02 |
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Diane,
I too, like your husband have had very bad issues with what was diagnosed as periodontal disease. This was right at the same time as my diagnosis for Sarc, imagine that. I ended up having gum surgery which I wish I wouldn't have had...but that was before I got on the MP. The gum surgery resulted in a biopsy that showed oral sarcoidosis (and an oral surgeon told me that to someone not looking for Sarc as I had told my dentist about it ahead of time, it would have just looked like gum disease). As it turns out, shortly after gum surgery, I convinced my Rheumy at the time to NOT do another round or prednisone, but treat me with at least minocycline (since he wouldn't go for the benicar part of the MP). My results were that the minocycline by itself really helped my gum issues. I suspect if I had just gone on minocycline, without the treatment, it would have improved the chance to save my gums. However, to totally cure the TH1 disease in the gum tissue, I believe one has to go on the MP.
My Rheumy had me do 100MG 2X per day...after figuring out that i needed to "pulse" the mino, I did so at 100 mg QOD. That actually started me herxing and convinced me that the MP was the way to go. Another 16 months and I finally swirched docs and joined the MP (18 months ago). Too bad for my poor gums....I will lose at least 4 teeth where the gums were cut away so much the exposed roots are as large as the tooth themselves.
Good luck,
Robert
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Sarcoidosis 125D44 25D28 Ph1Jul05 Ph2Sep05 Ph3May06 D25-8(Feb07) MP brk May08 NoIRs outside otherwise normal light exposure
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DianeC
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Posted: Wed Jan 10th, 2007 00:28 |
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Thank you all (Meg, Carole, Aunt Diana and Robertrr) for your replies and wonderful advice!!
I called our doctor today and ordered the Minocycline for Tom! He will start with 50mg twice and day and work up to the 100mg twice a day. We are going to see how that goes and hopefully he will not need the gum surgery
And Robertrr......thank you so much for posting your experience with the gum surgery. I am so sorry to hear what you had to go through. After reading your post it all starting coming back to me why we did not opt for Tom to undergo this surgery back in early 2002. Instead he started doxy and his gums healed and even the dentist had to admit whatever he was doing was working!!
I had Tom read all of your replies but at this point in time he will not consider doing MP so he will need to take the Minocycline on a daily basis to treat the infection. Although he will never be cured, it is the next best thing that we can do so I am very thankful to all of you for your advice and guidance
Best wishes to all of you!!
DianeC
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chronic fatigue/osteoporosis osteoarthritis, 9/05 25-D 40 1,25-D 52 1/06 Benicar 40mg Q6H Mino 28Jan @25mg q48h Mino 12Mar @50mg q72h Mino 15April @75mg q72h Mino 1May 100mg 5/06 Phase 2 D-25 18 10/06 Phase3 D-25 20 5/07 D-25 under 7
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DianeC
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Posted: Tue Feb 13th, 2007 04:14 |
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Tom has been on the minocycline 100mg 2x per day since January 11th. He has declined the gum surgery. I am wondering if he could be experiencing a brain herx because he has had lapse of memory these last couple of days.
1) Is it possible that by taking 100mg 2x per day that more bacteria could be killed than what the body could handle? I am referring to the toxins that are released when the bacteria is killed?
2) Would taking only 100mg of minocycline per day be adequate? When he had taken doxy for 3 years he was taking 100 mg per day which was very effective. I am just wondering if the mino would be similar in effectiveness?
3) Does minocycline taken every day actually kill the bacteria or does it act more like an anti-inflammatory? Or Both?
Thank you and Best wishes!
DianeC
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chronic fatigue/osteoporosis osteoarthritis, 9/05 25-D 40 1,25-D 52 1/06 Benicar 40mg Q6H Mino 28Jan @25mg q48h Mino 12Mar @50mg q72h Mino 15April @75mg q72h Mino 1May 100mg 5/06 Phase 2 D-25 18 10/06 Phase3 D-25 20 5/07 D-25 under 7
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Meg Mangin R.N.
Research Team
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Posted: Tue Feb 13th, 2007 09:53 |
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1) Minocycline has been ordered at 100mg twice daily for decades. Most people tolerate this dose and find it effective at eliminating the acute infection for which it was prescribed. Those who have an adverse symptom are said to be allergic. Immunopathology may be occurring if CWD are being killed and this would account for your husband's increase in short-term memory loss.
2) It's difficult to say if minocycline without the Benicar blockade would be effective at killing all the bacteria suspected of causing periodontal disease. We have found doxycycline not nearly as effective as minocycline.
3) Minocycline taken twice daily often acts as an antiinflammatory. The improvement in symptoms is palliative not curative. I recall taking it this way for years as a teenager with improvement in my acne but the acne was not resolved until the MP.
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Robertrr
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Posted: Wed Feb 14th, 2007 11:30 |
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Diane,
Speaking only from personal experience, back pre-MP when I took 2X per day 100 mg of minocycline, I did so w/o issues and if I had IPR/herxes, they were subclinical. When I began pulsing it a bit (100 mg qod), I actually began experiencing some herxing (not as much as I got off 25mg qod with benicar tho :-)). Brian fog was one of the IPRs I had that I never realized was an IPR or SX of my TH1 disease until I got more on MP and then they've pretty much disappeared (except every great now and again as an IPR).
Robert
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Sarcoidosis 125D44 25D28 Ph1Jul05 Ph2Sep05 Ph3May06 D25-8(Feb07) MP brk May08 NoIRs outside otherwise normal light exposure
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DianeC
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Posted: Wed Feb 14th, 2007 17:18 |
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Hi Meg,
Thank you for answering my questions It is encouraging to know that the cwd bacteria is being killed. My only concern had been that the 200 mg per day would be killing more bacteria at one time and my concern was for the toxins being released and that there would be more of them concentrated at any given time in his system that could affect his heart or other organs, etc. adversely.
If a person is not on MP what actually happens to the dying bacteria which are the toxins? Are they eliminated from the body or do they just stay there and recirculate and never leave the body?
I am not quite sure that I understand what you mean by Immunopathology which could be taking place contributing the the short term memory loss? Will this symptom wax and wain depending on how much of the bacteria are killed? And if the dying bacteria are leaving the body it would seem that the memory loss would improve??
I have tried in vain to get Tom to consider MP Today we were hit with a major snow storm with freezing rain. Tom had only been outdoors yesterday but the thought of him having to stay indoors today was driving him crazy!!
Even though the improvement in symptoms is palliative is it correct in thinking that at least doing this is better than doing nothing and allowing the bacteria to continue to flourish?
Thanks again Meg for your thorough explanations!
Best wishes
DianeC
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DianeC
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Posted: Wed Feb 14th, 2007 19:14 |
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Hello Robert,
I always enjoy hearing from you! Thank you for sharing your experience with taking the 100mg of minocycline 2x per day pre MP and how you have improved since you have been on MP! I just wish that I was able to convince Tom that MP is the only way that he will return to optimal health.
Being that he will not do MP, he will have to do the next best thing and at least kill some of the bacteria. I am hoping that by his next dental visit that he will have great improvement with his gums.
I am glad to hear that you had no issues pre MP taking the 200mg of minocycline. I am not sure what you mean by the term IPR/herxes and if you did have them they were subclinical. I am also not sure I know what you mean by subclinical??
Thanks again!! Wishing you all the best!
DianeC
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chronic fatigue/osteoporosis osteoarthritis, 9/05 25-D 40 1,25-D 52 1/06 Benicar 40mg Q6H Mino 28Jan @25mg q48h Mino 12Mar @50mg q72h Mino 15April @75mg q72h Mino 1May 100mg 5/06 Phase 2 D-25 18 10/06 Phase3 D-25 20 5/07 D-25 under 7
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Meg Mangin R.N.
Research Team
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Posted: Thu Feb 15th, 2007 00:39 |
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Toxins generated by activity of the immune system are handled by the liver and exceted by the kidneys. It's not the toxins your husband should be concerned about but the continued presence of intracellular bacteria.
The antibiotics will kill CWD bacteria wherever they are located, not just in the mouth. New symptoms or an increase in old symptoms suggests the location of inflammation caused by CWD bacteria. That is what I meant when I wrote short term memory loss may signify immunopathology.
Your husband doesn't have to be a hermit to be on the MP. Each person is different is the amount of sunlight they can tolerate. My husband can golf all day without ill effect so if that is all that your husband is concerned about, he should give the MP a try and see what happens.
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DianeC
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Posted: Thu Feb 15th, 2007 02:21 |
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Thank you Meg!
I am understanding it so much better now! That is so encouraging that your husband can be out all day and play golf without ill effects!
My husband enjoys sitting outside in the nice weather reading a book in the spring and summer. He likes the feel of the sun so I don't know if he will be willing to give that up? I had purchased some of the sun protection clothing for him including the hats with the flaps but he is reluctant to wear them. Tom will be 75 in a couple of months and I don't think he is willing to be diligent enough to see the MP through. As far as he is concerned, he doesn't think he needs minocycline at all but is taking it to please me. I do have a couple of questions:
1) Tom is already taking a blood pressure medicine called BISOPH/HCTZ Tab 5/6.25 If he decided to try the MP would he take the Benicar in place of the med he is taking now?
2) His cholesterol and triglycerides tend to be elevated. He has had success taking red yeast rice for the cholesterol. The doctor wants him to take Omacor which I believe are essential fatty acids and taken to protect the heart, but I am afraid to have him take it. He does take CoEnzyme Q10. Tom is basically on the same diet that I am on so that would not be a problem.
3) My biggest concern would be if he did decide to try MP and was not diligent in following the protocol, that he could be worse off and have a much harder time with the herxing? Can some be on the MP and be able to have sunlight on their skin? Is sunlight okay for some on the MP particularly if they are not light sensitive? Does that also mean that in some people they can have sun and the cwd bacteria will not grow and proliferate? How does your husband protect his skin and eyes? Tom did have an inflammatory eye condition in the past as well as the gum problem and both did clear up with doxy but I realize that the mino will reach a much wider range of species of bacteria.
4) If a person gives the MP a try for a few months or longer and then decides that it is not something that they can adhere to, will they be worse off than before they started the MP and will there be repercussions due to the lesser virulent strains of bacteria being killed first?
The way I understand it and correct me if I am wrong, but do the more virulent bacteria that are hidden deep within the tissues still reproduce copies of themselves or do they stop reproducing once they have produced other lesser virulent strains which are not deep within the tissues but which are the ones that are targeted first when doing MP? Do ALL of the bacteria keep producing copies of themselves and or mutating into more dangerous forms of bacteria?
I am still hopeful that Tom will re-consider and try the MP!
Thanks so much, once again, for the clarification
DianeC
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chronic fatigue/osteoporosis osteoarthritis, 9/05 25-D 40 1,25-D 52 1/06 Benicar 40mg Q6H Mino 28Jan @25mg q48h Mino 12Mar @50mg q72h Mino 15April @75mg q72h Mino 1May 100mg 5/06 Phase 2 D-25 18 10/06 Phase3 D-25 20 5/07 D-25 under 7
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Meg Mangin R.N.
Research Team
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Posted: Thu Feb 15th, 2007 02:44 |
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1) Tom's B/P may still require a second medication for a time but dyazide is not recommended....too hard on ailing kidneys.
2) An abnormal lipid profile is indicative of Th1 inflammation. The meds you mentioned are palliative and not without risk. Tom has a unique opportunity to halt the progression of atherosclerosis with the MP before he has a cardiovascular event.
3) My husband is not particularly photosensitive but he wears Bolle 100s when outside for any length of time. He does not cover his arms or legs in the summer but he also has far less systemic inflammation than the average MPer. He is only on the MP because of my experience in recognizing early symptoms of Th1 inflammation. His therapeutic probe is what convinced him that he wasn't as healthy as he thought. 
4) It sounds like the only 'noncompliance' issue for your husband is sun avoidance. Once on the MP meds, he will know how photosensitive he really is. At that point, he can decide to acknowledge any photosensitivity as a wake-up call or quit the MP if he doesn't want to avoid sunlight. He will be no worse off for the trial and it may jolt him out of denial.
I'm not sure where you got the idea that more virulent strains of CWD lie within deeper tissues. Different bacteria are targeted by different antibiotic combinations. It can be more difficult to target bacteria in tissues not well perfused by blood (nerve, joint, skin).
I hope this info helps Tom decide to join you on the MP.
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DianeC
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Posted: Thu Feb 15th, 2007 03:50 |
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Hi Meg,
This is all very encouraging! I am feeling much more optimistic the more I learn; especially that one does not have to comply with all of the sun and light restrictions especially if they are not particularly photosensitive
How would one know if their blood pressure medicine contained dyazide? How would it be indicated on the bottle?
Tom only wears glasses for distance and they are large glasses. Do the Bolle 100s come large enough to wear over large eye glasses?
How exactly does the "therapeutic probe" work? Does he just take the minocycline every other day instead of every day? If so, what strength dosage?
Does the therapeutic probe always elicit a herx symptom? What if he does not herx inspite of the cwd bacteria being present? Does one take the mino every other day until they do herx?
Tom very rarely ever complains about aches or pains so he could have a herx and not even know it or never tell me. He never once complained about anything hurting during his cancer surgery or chemotherapy in spite of the fact that the last month on chemo, one night he looked very gray and had a high temp but never complained. He was taken off chemo immediately at that point and that was 10 years ago. He is cancer free today according to the AMAS test he had taken last June.
Thank you for the links! I am feeling so much more encouraged!!!!
DianeC
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chronic fatigue/osteoporosis osteoarthritis, 9/05 25-D 40 1,25-D 52 1/06 Benicar 40mg Q6H Mino 28Jan @25mg q48h Mino 12Mar @50mg q72h Mino 15April @75mg q72h Mino 1May 100mg 5/06 Phase 2 D-25 18 10/06 Phase3 D-25 20 5/07 D-25 under 7
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