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Probiotics kill 24 people in The Netherlands
 Moderated by: Prof Trevor Marshall Page:  First Page Previous Page  1  2   
 

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LH1953
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 Posted: Tue Feb 19th, 2008 22:20

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Interesting cause I have IP like crazy, and have not been able to tolerate ABX very well between the interstitial cystitis, U colitis, Asthma and MCS issues. 

I wonder if taking the 1,000mg of ceftin daily for 4 years also added insult to injury causing a high bacteria load.  I know my initial 1,25D was only in the low 40's, but lets face it, as sick as I was, is it possible that my immune response was not a true reading, (that it should have been on the higher side).  Some that I have spoken to who were not as sick as myself, and also for a much shorter period of time had WAY higher 1,25D levels then I, when tested. (I assume that their immune response was better then mine in showing the 1,25D level).



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martysfolks
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 Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 04:29

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I am just about to enter into phase ll and find this topic very interesting. I had a bout of Gerd, Reflux, indigestion (whatever you want to call it) a few day ago.  First I took two acidophillus and waited a bit w/o relief.  Then I took the Prevacid my gastro doc gave me and then just in the event it was an IP, I chewed an extra Benicar.  Sat up for a while at the computer and in about 45 minutes, I realized that the burning, churning, turning was gone.  My mind says it was the Prevacid.  If that is true, is the Prevacid contraindicated on MP.  I hope it was IP because the relief was so fast. I don't even know what the classification of Prevacid is.  I only know I have been off and on it for years.  It cured an ulcer I had.  I also have a hiatal hernia.  Does that ever repair itself? My questions may seem dumb, but I am new at this and very much interested. I never did think that acidophillus or lactobacillus was of any help.  Thanks for letting me put my two cents worth in.  Dolores



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LH1953
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 Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 21:03

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I want to throw out this question.  Those who did not do well with, or do not seem to have the need for probiotics, are they mostly those who do not have U. colitis, IBS, food intolerances, etc?



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eClaire
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 Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 22:19

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Dr. Marshall, Is what you are saying about the probiotics possibly triggering a Th1 response the same as someone eating more than a low carb diet?  That is, do the carbs in the diet divert the innate immune system?  I ask this because at this moment in time, I cannot handle the low carb diet (my IP becomes intolerable), and I was told to increase my carbs.  I've tried lowering them twice now, and I'm hoping in time I will be able to lower them.

Lori, my 1,25D was 48 and I was very sick pre-MP (and having a very difficult time of it); I also have IBS.  However, if I take pro-biotics (even only 1billion), I end up with terrible constipation, feel bloated, and just plain miserable.

Claire



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Aunt Diana
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 Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 11:50

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Claire,
Have you tried Colase or Fiberone. These work wonders for me.



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 13:16

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Lori, Claire,
Most of us have some degree of GI tract problems. I hate to describe the degree of those problems with a diagnosis tag - whether it be IBS, or whatever, as one doctor might give that diagnosis to exactly the same degree of illness that another doctor may feel is still 'normal.'

Sugars do affect the immune system profoundly. You are describing that they seem to de-activate your immune system, and that is not surprising. Juggling your level of immunopathology might be possible by changing the antibiotic dose, as well as changing the sugars.

I never found Probiotics to be helpful. But I never took them for long enough to become dependent upon the immunosuppression they apparently offer. If given a choice, I would avoid probiotics during the MP.
 
Constipation is certainly changed by the level of carbs in your diet. Drugs such as Colace, docusate sodium, used to work well for me and are OTC. Don't use them any more than you need, it is better to rely on Milk of Magnesia. This suggestion comes with the usual disclaimers about making sure you ask Doc before you change anything...
 

LH1953
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 Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 15:46

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Well, I tried to lower my usual dose of probiotics again in the past day and a half.  Bingo, on the verge of diarrhea again.  When I stay on my usual dose of 4 total probiotics a day, I am fine.  It has also taken me 6 weeks just to have the ability to get the meds increased.  My inability to up the ABX even on only a 2 combo instead of the 3 combo, is still very slow. 

I never fit the norm in the mainstream of things, and apparently with the MP as well.

Not a problem cause I have progressed with improvement, VERY slow and steady. (again for me I am superwomen now, but so very far from normal.) Thanks for all the info here.

Take Care,   Lori



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Frans
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 Posted: Sat Feb 23rd, 2008 11:02

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Hi all, I have been following this thread and thinking a lot about this subject, but a lot of things about probiotics sound very odd.

Here in the Netherlands they say it improves our bowelmovement. Now there are two things about that that strike me as odd.

First of all, they do not explain why this impaired bowelmovement happens in the first place. I would like to know and inderstand what is wrong that so many people seemingly enjoy beneficial effects from this. Are they all sick in some way?

Another remark about this is that if one needs to improve bowelmovement, try eating a piece of raw chicken. Believe me, you will be running to the toilet in no time...

This sounds stupid, but when one looks at the paper Trevor posted about these athletes, this is exactly what seems to be happening. These people's immune systems are antagonized, period.

This sure makes one wonder if these so-called good bacteria, that are purported to be 'accepted' by our bodies are maybe actually not 'accepted'. Our immunesystem clearly isn't accepting them.

Dave Relman's paper (Trevor has mentioned this paper several times in the past) on the gut microbiota is rather telling in that respect, or at least it should make one wonder.

http://tinyurl.com/37upu8

What Relman's group found that the microbiota in the first months of life differs from that of the 'normal adult microbiota'.

Now, off course the question is, why do some species survive and some don't. It is clear that probiotics trigger an immune response, so perhaps the ones surviving in our bodies have figured out a way to avoid destruction by the immune system?

Maybe the whole thing is even simpler. Our innate immunity is non-specific, meaning it targets parts of bacteria, viruses, etc, regardless of what species.

So maybe, just maybe, our bodies have actually evolved to destroy everything that gets in it, period.

Bacteria (and viruses eg) don't belong in our bodies, none of them. The human body (innate immunity) just seems designed that way.

Just some thoughts, Frans



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Claudia
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 Posted: Sat Feb 23rd, 2008 18:57

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Hi Frans,

IMHO - I think the answer has to do with the fact that a "typical" bowel motion consists of a large proportion of dead bacteria. It also contains "dead cells from the bowel lining" which may be important to factor in for people who are sick with gut disease. So when we are told that probiotics improve bowel motions, it may refer mainly to improving the consistency (bulk)of bowel motions for people who are constipated. A diet with probiotics provides lots of the kind of bacteria (lactobacillus) which our bodies can easily kill off. Milk is our first food and lactobacilli are "safe" for babies' guts to "deal with". I think we have evolved a preference, so to speak, for such bacteria. Obviously, it makes demands on our immune system, but on balance, a healthy person's gut is happy doing this.

Probiotics may also displace (overgrow) any bad bacteria and in that respect, help prevent diarrhea. So that is an "improvement" as well. It is a balancing act.

Dr Marshall says (correct me if I am wrong,) he doesn't think we even need any bacteria in our gut, but of course it is impossible to live in a sterile world, so we are always going to be exposed to bacteria. Better to have some of the "good guys" than let the bad ones take over. I think this is the idea behind the probiotics promotion.  

If we eat sufficient amounts of fibre and stay hydrated, our bowel motions should be fine, once we are healthy, without additional probiotics.

Claudia



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OurMiraculousHealing Daughter
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 Posted: Mon Feb 25th, 2008 21:07

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hi.

just a story i thought would be of relevance:

our mum does not have pancreas problems, and yet last week after taking a quarter capsule of a new abx mum experienced severely debillitating non-relenting pain near the bottom of her ribcage on the left side (location of pancreas.)

it was so severe our doctor did an emergency blood test and came out four times after for checkups.

after reading and discussing this story in the netherlands, we realised mum had taken probiotics leading up to and after the dose of meds. (see below for details)

just thought you should know.
Angelina

the following is an excerpt from her post

last week sun night took  acidophilus capsule (US brand): 1x L. rhamnosus, Lcasei, L. plantarum, L. acidophilus, B. longum (morinaga strain), B. breve, Pediococcus acidilactici, Lactococcus lactis ssp. Lactis. (new from the US had taken before and was no prob.)
 On mon night took 1x lactobacillus acidophilus + bifidobacterium lactis  to prepare for Tue night abx (read about gutproblems) and wedn another acidophilus (US brand))



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 Posted: Tue Feb 26th, 2008 12:23

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Just wondering...

My doc thinks my RUQ pain is due to my gallbladder. I am not so sure. I don't throw up nor do I have any diarrhea. After a bit of research I am leaning toward my pancreas. Probiotics have never seemed to have any good or bad effect on me (as far as I have been able to assertain), but the idea that the probiotics could potentially have a bad effect on my pancreas, if that is the case, is VERY scary, and I think, very dangerous!

Gail
"It is never too late to be what you might have been." -George Eliot :cool:



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 Posted: Thu May 29th, 2008 04:29

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I think this article sheds some light  on the kind of thing that is going on, but obviously it is just one  part of a hugely complicated interaction:

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-05/hms-ibp052208.php



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NickBowler
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 Posted: Wed Oct 29th, 2008 11:55

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Here is an article about how there is another dimension to how probiotics have the effects they reputedly do, by altering the adhesive ability of pathogenic bacteria:

http://tinyurl.com/ScienceDirect-Probiotics



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Claudia
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 Posted: Sat Nov 15th, 2008 03:21

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Something new from New Zealand.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz:80/health/news/article.cfm?c_id=204&objectid=10542787



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Sat Nov 15th, 2008 03:28

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I attended the "Beneficial Microbes" conference, run by the American Society for Microbiology, about 3 weeks ago.

None of the people who talked in terms of "Beneficial Microbes" have the expertise to understand that the bacteria which they believe have beneficial effects are also likely to carry harmful genes into the human body. It is ignorance of the worst kind. They assume that the body is sterile, except for those bacteria which they can identify in teeth, gut, etc, and they have no concept of a metagenome. Sigh...

Hence my keynote at Gene 2008 in China:
"Understanding Disease Requires Study of a Metagenome, not just the Human Genome"

http://www.bitlifesciences.com/wcg2008/
 

kenc
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 Posted: Sun Nov 16th, 2008 22:10

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NickBowler,

It appears PSA acts as an immunosuppressant. So using PSA to treat IBD would not be a very good idea (since it could encourage the proliferation of pathogens). Using one species of bacteria to drive out a more pathogenic species may have some value. However, reactivating an impaired immune system via the MP so it can better manage the gut microflora in the way the body has evolved to do seems like the safest approach to me.

As someone with Crohn's disease I prefer to follow Dr. Marshall's cautious view on probiotics.

Ken



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 Posted: Mon Nov 17th, 2008 04:41

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Ken,

It does seem as though palliation of symptoms by modifying the immune response so that it produces fewer inflammatory cytokines, adding species which compete with more pro-inflammatory ones either by producing specific chemicals or by physical interference, or even by the diversion of inflammation from distant organs to the gut as Amy surmised, is the main purpose of probiotic supplementation. Whether or not that could be supportive of the MP is not clear yet but most people will no doubt take the view that it is not, as the long term goal of the MP is to reduce bacterial load.



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 Posted: Tue Nov 18th, 2008 09:49

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I found it particularly disturbing that the article (from NZ) mentioned adding probiotics (i.e. live bacteria) to BABY FORMULA.  Scary stuff, especially considering they already add "vitamin D".



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 Posted: Tue Nov 18th, 2008 10:02

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There is already a product marketed for babies from Natren. When I first saw it, I didn't think anything of it. Knowing what I know now... I am not so calm about the thought!



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 Posted: Wed Nov 19th, 2008 09:09

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Hi Trevor,

Good luck in China! Is there anything in the forecast for Canada next year, Autoimmunity or otherwise?

Do you know of any states, cities, provinces, where MP members get together?

Brenda



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