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The Common Cold is really Immunopathology?
 Moderated by: Prof Trevor Marshall Page:  First Page Previous Page  1  2  3  4  5  Next Page Last Page  
 

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garyv
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 Posted: Mon Jun 20th, 2011 08:10

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Gene,

Sorry to disagree, but it is not "cellular chemicals" causing the symptoms. The symptoms can be largely minimized by eating a metabolically appropriate diet according to your genetic inheritance.

I am speaking here not only from my own experience but from that of many others who have adopted a Paleo diet.

Omitting maladaptive foods does not result in immuno-suppression. When you do that, you will feel and know the difference for yourself. Until then, it's all theories and suppositions and lots of words on lots of pieces of paper. ;)



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 Posted: Mon Jun 20th, 2011 11:09

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Hi Gary,

I avoid raw meat and unpasteurized milk because I fear being infected by the pathogens that coexist within the animal.

As you know, the Human Microbiome Project is showing that humans have a huge bacterial Microbiome that lives in and on us.  I would think the same is true with animals such as livestock.  Eating uncooked meat and drinking unpasteurized milk could pass the animal microbiome to the consumer. 

As you know, when our intracellular bacterial infection increases, the bacteria products are able to act as antagonists to the VDR shutting down the immune system.  This may explain why those who eat raw meat don’t have cold symptoms. 

Gene



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 Posted: Mon Jun 20th, 2011 15:13

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I don't get any of this.

I rarely got a virus most of my life (my immune system was very compromised).  Then, before I crashed completely, after I'd already stopped reacting to most allergens and as intensely to chemicals (proof my immune system was crashing more), I had mono, a bad virus, and another strain of mono all in the course of four years.

I had my first cold on the MP in year 1.

I'm in my fifth year (nearly 4 years and 7 months in), and I've had no other viruses.  I get out and about a few times a week. 

Have I just been lucky not to be exposed to anything?  Shouldn't my immune system be improving and shouldn't I be getting viruses?

I've also heard that someone who was very healthy might not have noticeable IP in relation to a cold virus b/c that person's immune system is cleaning up the virus easily without noticeable IP.

Last edited on Mon Jun 20th, 2011 15:13 by eClaire



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garyv
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 Posted: Mon Jun 20th, 2011 16:23

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Gene,

Your raw food fears are unfounded although encouraged by the industrial frankenfood pushers who profit from them. The truth of the matter is that the bacteria which are intrinsic to raw animal products (and not a result of contamination from careless and unclean practices) are quite safe and compatible with human metabolism and actually function to suppress disease-causing species which can thrive in pasteurized and heat-treated products.

Recommended reading:
http://www.realmilk.com
http://www.organicpastures.com/faq.html
The Untold Story of Milk by Ron Schmid

As I have posted previously, cooking is one of the mechanisms which can cause bacteria to morph to the L-form:

Markova has provided evidence that E. coli can survive lethal treatments such as boiling or autoclaving (subjecting equipment to high pressure steam at 121 °C or more) by transitioning into the L-form.
http://mpkb.org/home/pathogenesis/microbiota/lforms

http://www.biolsci.org/v06p0303.htm

I can tell you from my own experience, as will other raw Paleo eaters, that eating raw meat most definitely does not antagonize the VDR or "shut down the immune system"--in fact, just the opposite.

It is important, however, to eat forage-fed animal products, since the guts of such animals do not encourage the growth of pathogenic organisms like the guts of those who are fed grains and who must be continually pumped up with antibiotics to avoid disease and death prior to maturity. You see, eating grains is as inappropriate for a herbivore as it is for a carnivore.

However, a Paleo diet does not have to be raw, although dairy products, whether raw or pasteurized, would not be considered truly Paleo. Some people seem to have a genetic adaptation to secrete the lactase enzyme, but the bigger problem is casein (milk protein), which generates a maladaptive immune response in many people. 

As far as cold symptoms go, you, like myself, can rid yourself of those very well with a cooked Paleo diet, and I would recommend that as a first step.

Once you have experienced those benefits, over time you may be able to summon the courage to go raw and take your immunity and energy and resistance to aging to the next level. :dude:

"Eat it raw or die fearing it."

Kind regards,
Gary



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 Posted: Mon Jun 20th, 2011 16:37

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Sorry Gary, I don't buy it.  I will stick with well done :)

Best regards,  Gene



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 Posted: Mon Jun 20th, 2011 21:22

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I don't mind a rare steak on occasion but I want it seered to kill of the airborn bugs that land on it, sneezes and mucky fingers etc.:P

I prefer my vegies steamed and my bread fresh and the rest either grows on trees or comes in cans.

I think you can go a bit overboard with diets, you have to live in this world and going out and enjoying company and good food are some of the pleasures that are put on hold by MPers in the early stages of treatment.:(

Adopting a fad diet isn't likely to speed things up and isn't likely to get you many dinner invitations post MP either!

Colds are part of life, I have heard it said that a cold lasts 7 days if you treat it and a week if you don't.

IP or a cold? wipe your nose and let it be is what I do these days, the result is the same.
I made a mistake and had Tamiflu once, standard practice for anyone in the doctors surgery who was sneezing and it cost me some bad hours in hospital when my immune system went into overdrive, a fair comment might be to leave well alone the boutique drugs when on MP and let the body do what it is supposed to.:cool:

:dude:



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garyv
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 Posted: Tue Jun 21st, 2011 05:35

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Gene and Keith,

Fad diet? Just the opposite. It's the diet that not only sustained your ancestors but allowed them to proliferate and populate the world.

There are billions of microbes within each of us, as you well know. This is part of our design. The trick is to manage your life--particularly your diet--in order to feed the microbes that are compatible with the human metabolism so that they will hold in abeyance those that are pathogenic.

Dr. Loren Cordain, author of The Paleo Diet has advanced the theory that WGA (Wheat Germ Aggutinin) is a primary factor in the disruption of Vitamin D metabolism. This is potentially the opening that L-forms needed to invade the immune system and hide within the body's own phagocytes.

Agriculture may turn out to be the biggest mistake humanity ever made, not only due to its engendering of chronic disease but also because it made possible the implementation of social control mechanisms that enabled a privileged few to dominate and destroy indigenous cultures throughout the world, replacing their ecological, spiritual and nutritional wisdom with authoritarian control structures. Among these are political, religious, educational, media and medical institutions that keep humanity in ignorance of its birthright and capacity to live healthy, productive lives in peaceful co-existence with each other and with the planet which sustains us.

Suggested reading:
(Note: I do not recommend Cordain's book since it is corrupted by his supine embrace of politically correct low-fat dieting)
http://paleodiet.com/
Neanderthin by Ray Audette  (see http://neanderthin.com/site/ )
Guns, Germs and Steel: The Fate of Human Societies
by Jared Diamond
Not In His Image by John Lamb Lash

"Colds" and "flus" do not have to be part of life. They were for me for decades, but not for the past 14 years.

It's not so difficult. I went out with my family on Father's Day and had an enjoyable meal of cooked meat and veggies, which is available at nearly any restaurant and even fast food joints.

It's much like Dr. Mercola's view of the MP. You can look at something from a distance and critique it with the perspective that your education and your culture has given you up to this point. And in your head you can find all kinds of things "wrong" with it and contrary to what you may consider to be "rational," and on that basis, you can easily and summarily dismiss it.

But if you allow yourself to consider the experiences and results that others have achieved who have had the courage to step outside the mainstream and actually experience it for themselves, you may see the potential for this unusual path to offer you a liberating and even miraculous existence.

There is no need to live in fear of your grandchildren.  :cool:


Last edited on Tue Jun 21st, 2011 05:38 by garyv



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 Posted: Tue Jun 21st, 2011 06:09

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Recent article on Popular Science:

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2011-04/fyi-what-would-happen-if-i-ate-nothing-meat

"That said, some groups of people have survived—even thrived—on an animal-only diet. Research suggests that traditionally the Inuit ate any number of meats, including seal, whale, caribou and fish. But they rarely, if ever, ate plant fiber. The key to their success, says Harriet Kuhnlein, the founding director of the Centre for Indigenous Peoples’ Nutrition and Environment at McGill University in Montreal, was eating every part of the animal, “and you have to eat some of it raw.” Raw meat contains vitamin C (which is lost when cooked), and the skin, hooves and bones contain fiber. For greens, Kuhnlein adds, traditional Inuit “ate the stomach contents of caribou and deer.”

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 Posted: Tue Jun 21st, 2011 06:29

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Speaking of getting or not getting viruses, I thought I read somewhere that the same pesky T cells that are causing us so much grief are also responsible for fighting off viruses, which is why people with autoimmune diseases don't seem to get sick anymore than anyone else.... at least that is my experience.

Deb



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garyv
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 Posted: Tue Jun 21st, 2011 07:05

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eClaire wrote: I've also heard that someone who was very healthy might not have noticeable IP in relation to a cold virus b/c that person's immune system is cleaning up the virus easily without noticeable IP.
Claire,

That is exactly what is going on with me these days (and in pre-MP years, too). But I would caveat that by saying that a healthy adaptive immune system does not necessarily imply a healthy innate immune system.

Your experience has been quite different from mine, and I do not feel qualified to comment on it.

I do know that the SCDiet eliminates many of the most maladaptive foods and is a very big step towards a Paleo diet. Your adoption of it can only enhance the functioning of your immune system and certainly in no way suppress it.



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 Posted: Tue Jun 21st, 2011 10:06

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"For greens, Kuhnlein adds, traditional Inuit “ate the stomach contents of caribou and deer.”

Yuck!!!!



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edj2001
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 Posted: Tue Jun 21st, 2011 12:03

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Gary,

It seems that you are basing your recommendation for the Paleo diet on how it makes you feel (better).  Before I was on the MP, I took prednisone off and on for 5 years. Without exception, my symptoms improved within 4 or 5 days.  What I understand now is that the steroid was shutting down my immune system. 

How can you be sure that your diet is not increasing your intracellular bacterial infection by introducing the animal’s microbiome into your system, thus, resulting in a compromised VDR and immune system to make you feel better?

Gene     

Last edited on Tue Jun 21st, 2011 12:14 by edj2001



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garyv
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 Posted: Thu Jun 23rd, 2011 07:54

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edj2001 wrote: How can you be sure that your diet is not increasing your intracellular bacterial infection by introducing the animal’s microbiome into your system, thus, resulting in a compromised VDR and immune system to make you feel better?
Gene,

When you eat contaminated food and experience vomiting, diarrhea, stomach cramps, fatigue and fever, it’s because your immune system recognizes a bacterial, viral or parasitic threat to your well-being and mobilizes your faculties to expel and defend against that threat. When you consequently avoid eating that contaminated food, you begin to feel better, and your symptoms gradually resolve.

The fact that your symptoms disappear and you feel better has nothing to do with the VDR and everything to do with your avoidance of contaminated food.

It is much the same when you quit eating foods that are metabolically inappropriate for your genetic inheritance. Often such foods do not provoke the acute reaction that contaminated food does; the reaction is more subtle and develops over time, but it eventually results in unpleasant symptoms, which are usually felt in the gut but can affect other areas as well.

For example, people with celiac disease experience gut symptoms but also neurological, bone, dental and skin issues due to the atrophy of their intestinal villi leading to malabsorption. These symptoms generally improve when such people adopt a gluten-free diet, although some find it necessary to avoid other immune-reactive foods, such as non-gluten grains (oats, corn, rice), legumes and nightshades (tomatoes, potatoes, eggplant, peppers).

Similarly, people with Crohn’s Disease and ulcerative colitis have achieved great success with the SCDiet (Specific Carbohydrate Diet). This diet eliminates grains and legumes and permits only a very few specific types of dairy. Also, some have found benefit from certain probiotics, which again supports the idea of “good” or metabolically compatible bacteria out-competing and de-populating overgrowths of pathogenic bacteria.


L-form bacteria may also play a role in these conditions, which can explain why diet changes and probiotics alone are not 100% successful. But that does not diminish the positive role that diet plays in diminishing disease for many people.

I personally know of one Crohn's patient who took Benicar according to the MP for four years but followed a largely vegetarian diet. I convinced him to go Paleo, and his symptoms diminished, but it was too late to save his colon since too much damage had already been done. Due to a positive cancer finding, he underwent a colonectomy, which, unfortunately, failed to put his cancer into remission.

When I adopted a Paleo diet, it was the cooked version, and it was on that diet that I experienced relief from my troublesome gut issues which had been plaguing me for 20 years (since my mid-twenties). Cold and flu symptoms and duration also began to diminish on the cooked Paleo diet.

So, what I’m saying is that my gut symptoms and 2x/year colds/flus went away because of AVOIDING certain foods, which has nothing to do with “introducing the animal’s microbiome” into my system and disabling my immune system.

Here I must distinguish between the adaptive or Th2 aspects of the immune system, which IMHO a Paleo diet will significantly strengthen, as opposed to the innate or Th1/17 aspects. Roughly half of the body’s lymphocytes in my understanding are associated with mucosal surfaces, of which the gut contains a large proportion. When these gut lymphocytes no longer are forced to react to foreign antigens from maladaptive foods, this will obviously provide a significant boost to the immune system, primarily its Th2 component it would seem.

My Th1 issues, which are listed below on my signature line and which IMHO do NOT include the gut issues which resolved on the Paleo diet, did NOT go away with my diet changes, which is why I kept looking for an answer until I learned about the MP.

Once you avoid the most problematic foods, you will find that your gut sensitivity becomes more refined, and your awareness and ability to distinguish between foods that increase your well-being and those that do not increases significantly. So, five years after going Paleo when I took it to 100% raw, I noticed even more improvement with my digestion, as well as increased energy, less hours of sleep needed and improved skin quality and a gradual fading of old age or “liver” spots.

Again, however, my Th1 issues remained unchanged, neither worse nor better, so again I think it highly unlikely that introducing raw animal bacteria had any effect on an already disabled VDR and innate immune system. On the contrary, I have already pointed you to the research showing that cooking your meat "well done" will tend to push bacteria to transition to the L-form order to survive.

BTW Gene, you may find it interesting that the most respected lab doing genetic celiac testing, which has tested thousands of patients in this country, has this to say about maladaptive foods:

Almost all Americans, especially those descending from Europe (including Mexico and other Latin states because of the Spanish influence), the Middle East, the Near East (including India), and Russia, are genetically predisposed to gluten sensitivity… Research showing a high association of antibodies to cow's milk proteins in people who react similarly to gluten has been around for over 40 years.
And they have this to say about the association of gut disorders with other “autoimmune” diseases:

Clearly most immune-related damage in the intestine heals with a gluten-free diet. Now it appears from early research of this question that many if not all autoimmune diseases such as autoimmune thyroid disease, psoriasis, alopecia, arthritis, lupus, hepatitis, diabetes, among others, and autism improve with a gluten-free diet… More recent research has now confirmed that reactions to cow's milk proteins (mainly casein but also lactalbumin, lactoglobulin, and bovine serum albumin) are indeed epidemiologically related to autoimmune diseases such as diabetes, psoriasis, eczema, and asthma, among others.

While formal studies of dairy-free diets, either alone or in combination with gluten-free, have not yet been conducted on a wide scale, the idea of a gluten-free/casein-free diet is not new, having been employed for decades by many health practitioners. From my objective assessment of this field, and my personal experience with my own dietary elimination for health, I recommend complete avoidance of all dairy products in anyone found to be immunologically sensitive to cow's milk protein by our tests, and anyone with an established autoimmune or chronic immune disease.

I predict future research will support this recommendation. Do not bury your head in the sand waiting for such studies. Do your own study and go gluten-free/dairy-free.

http://www.enterolab.com/StaticPages/FaqResult.aspx

Finally, here’s a little tidbit of practical wisdom for you to chew on:


You can demonstrate the purpose and limits of human digestion with a simple experiment: Eat a steak with some whole corn kernels, and see what comes out the other end. It won't be the steak.
http://www.gnolls.org/1444/does-meat-rot-in-your-colon-no-what-does-beans-grains-and-vegetables/

:)



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 Posted: Thu Jun 23rd, 2011 08:23

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I have been thinking about the paleo diet and finding it interesting. It's interesting the way we look at food and how we react to it.

If pasteurization doesn't kill L-forms, then cooking your food won't either. We cook our food to kill contaminant bacteria, but yet - we still eat it knowing it had that.

I just had a green salad and a medium-rare (local grass fed) steak. I guess that could be considered paleo. While it is acceptable to have a steak cooked that way, I'm not sure how I'd react if it wasn't cooked at all, although there wouldn't be much difference.

Thanks for giving me something to think about.

Deb



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25D = 25 1,25D = 58 Aug 18/09|25D<4.8 Mar/10|10.8 Nov/12
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 Posted: Thu Jun 23rd, 2011 09:04

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Hi Gary,

I grew up on the family farm in north east Nebraska in the 1940’s and 1950’s.  We raised corn and hay to feed and market beef and pork. We also had a small herd of dairy cows. 

When the milk cow lays down its udder is on the ground which can be covered with manure in the holding pen and feed lot, especially during winter.  When I was young, we milked by hand sitting on a three legged stool with the bucket under the cow’s udder.  At best we hand wiped the udder to brush off the dirt and manure.  There would be several cows in the barn at the same time while my dad and I milked them.  At some point one or two cows would void or defecate during the milking process.  Plus there were always flies.  This situation is better today with miking machines however the process is not sanitary.  I would never recommend drinking raw milk.  Not to mention adding the animal’s microbiome to the mix. 

My dad and his sister, their spouses, each had two children.  These eight people experienced 2 cases of Parkinson disease, Crohns disease, Sarcoidosis, Cancer, heart disease, arthritis, and dementia.  This indicates to me that infection is involved.  It does not make sense to me to consume raw milk or meat and risk infection. 

“So, what I’m saying is that my gut symptoms and 2x/year colds/flus went away because of AVOIDING certain foods, which has nothing to do with “introducing the animal’s microbiome” into my system and disabling my immune system.” 
How can you be sure?

“Again, however, my Th1 issues remained unchanged, neither worse nor better, so again I think it highly unlikely that introducing raw animal bacteria had any effect on an already disabled VDR and innate immune system.”
How do you know? Maybe your diet is preventing your recovery.

 “On the contrary, I have already pointed you to the research showing that cooking your meat "well done" will tend to push bacteria to transition to the L-form order to survive.”
However, I would expect that properly cooking the meat will kill almost all the bacteria allowing the immune system to deal with the rest. 

Gary,  I have read your many posts  supporting your diet ideas.  However, you are not a poster child for the MP.  Please back off and focus on the MP science and leave your special diet ideas at home.  The people on this web site are very sick; they are here to get better with the MP.  Your diet ideas belong on another web site.

Gene



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 Posted: Thu Jun 23rd, 2011 09:26

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Gary:
I second Gene's statement, above, regarding your proselytizing.

People come to this site to learn about and discuss the Marshall Protocol.

Limit your posts about the raw food diet, coral calcium, etc, to your personal thread. If readers want to pursue these topics, they will post there or send you a PM.

Carol

Last edited on Thu Jun 23rd, 2011 11:32 by carol



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 Posted: Thu Jun 23rd, 2011 10:26

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Carol,

This thread is entitled “The Common Cold is really Immunopathology?” and my posts have explored the issue of whether or not cold/flu symptoms are true Th1 immunopathology, which I have demonstrated with my own experience that they are not. It is my belief that the topic of what is and what is not TRUE Th1 IP is a most relevant subject to those on the Marshall Protocol. It would seem you have a different view.

Furthermore, it is my perception that most people on the Marshall Protocol have gut issues along with their Th1 issues. It seems to be the position of several moderators that gut issues are to be considered as immunopathology which must simply be endured. My experience, as well as that of others who have adopted the SCDiet or Paleo or a similar diet, calls this position into serious question. It is possible that others who can think for themselves may wish to know of ways to minimize their gut issues while on this protocol which are not being told to them by moderators. I feel obligated to post about such methods in order to help such people get rid of gut issues and thus be better able to tolerate the considerable true IP symptoms that the MP entails.

There is an SCDiet thread on this site which has had 5,669 views. Apparently there ARE others who are interested in the topic of maladaptive foods and their effects on human disease and the immune system.

Since you apparently do not wish me to respond to Gene, I will only say that his latest post shows that not only has he failed to look at any of the references I have provided for him concerning raw milk, but also that he is entirely ignorant of how raw milk is produced today by responsible dairies which are finding it difficult to keep up with the demand as the populace becomes better educated on the severe health consequences inherent in industrial factory-farmed milk, a subject apparently of little interest to you or Gene.

Gene also seems unwilling to accept (or does not understand) research noted on the MP Wiki which demonstrates that even pasteurization temperature (250 degrees) does not kill L-forms, must less the temperature required for well-done beef (170 degrees).


In my view these topics are extremely relevant to the MP cohort, and I do not bring them up for the purpose of "proselytising." [sic]

Actually, however, I grow weary of spending hours and hours of time researching these topics for people who do not wish to learn but merely regurgitate, with no backup or references whatsoever, what their upbringing and culture has brainwashed them into believing. :(

So I will gladly obey your “cease and desist” order.

The greatest obstacle to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.
--Daniel Boorstin



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 Posted: Thu Jun 23rd, 2011 11:17

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"Gene also seems unwilling to accept (or does not understand) research noted on the MP Wiki which demonstrates that even pasteurization temperature (250 degrees) does not kill L-forms, must less the temperature required for well-done beef (170 degrees)."

Actually Gary, I am doing research on L-form bacteria at Collin College after completing my AAS degree in Biotechnology.  I can assure you that the total bacterial effect of the animal microbiome is far more infectious that the L-form bacteria left over from the cooking process.  Even then you need to know if the L-form is stable or not to determine if it could be a problem.  I assure you that you get far more L-form bacteria from raw milk or raw meat.

but also that he is entirely ignorant of how raw milk is produced today by responsible dairies”

I stand by my last post.  The dairy process for milk is not sanitary unless pasteurized. 

Last edited on Thu Jun 23rd, 2011 11:22 by edj2001



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Sarc98 A.Fib uveitis sk cancer basal/melanoma colon tmr bladder tmr bph| Benicar Propafenone Synthroid Proscar | 1,25D=50 10/05| 25D=7 4/08| =9 2012 | avd l&D|
carol
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Joined: Mon Jul 12th, 2004
Location: Jackson Hole, Wyoming USA
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 Posted: Thu Jun 23rd, 2011 11:18

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Hi Claire:
Regarding your post on June 20... I suggest you go back to the very start of this thread and see if those posts are helpful to you. I just did that myself. There's some good stuff there.
Carol

Last edited on Thu Jun 23rd, 2011 11:23 by carol



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rheumatoid arthritis dx '96...started MP 8/11/04...initial D tests: 25-D=32; 1,25-D=65...10/07 entered Phase 5...Xodol daily, Celebrex as needed...last 25-D=7 (5/14)...Benicar 40mg/4 hour, no abx
danalyzer
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Joined: Tue Apr 20th, 2010
Location: Billings, Montana USA
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 Posted: Thu Jun 23rd, 2011 13:13

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:) I firmly believe that a proper diet is just as important as pursuing the MP. 6 weeks ago I started on the Paleo diet and have drop 2 pounds a week and never felt betterfor quite a long time. Weight loss and avoidance of carbs is quite a load off my respiratory system.

We shouldn't be telling someone to not express his ideas on this forum if it may help some people. Everybody is different and succeeds or fails there own way. But sequestering information will not allow anyone to succeed here.

I think Garyv should be commended for taking responsibility for his own health and sharing his good results with us. Not everyone may like the idea of taking responsibility for providing themselve a good diet but some of us do and the more info we receive the better we make a sound decision.

The way we eat today is about 10 mins in the year of our human evolution. we haven't had our modern agriculture for enough time for our bodies to evolve to it. Modern agriculture and diet is so insignificant in the big picture of things. I think we should all be a lot less short sighted and try to embrace our evolutionary heritage.

Archeologist can tell you that the hunter gathers of the paleolithic era were far more healthier than those found during our early agricultural years.



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Pulmonary Sarcoidosis (40% of lung tissue in fibrosis) Ph1Jun2009 | Ph2Jul2010 | 25d 5 | Mino 75 | Benicar 40mg X 5per day |

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