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Even Bacteria get lonely
 Moderated by: Prof Trevor Marshall Page:  First Page Previous Page  1  2  3  4  Next Page Last Page  
 

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Rosie
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 Posted: Sun Apr 11th, 2010 09:45

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This is a very interesting thread. Epinephrine/adrenaline is a big problem for me.

I have found the research of Manuel Martinez-Lavin MD, Rheumatologist provides a very reasonable theory of the cause of the symptoms in people with FM (and probably many other Th1 diseases).

http://www.martinez-lavin.com/Fibromyalgia.htm 
 
"What is heart rate variability analysis?

Heart rate variability analysis is based on the fact that the heart rate is not constant, but varies continuously by a few milliseconds. The periodic components of this heart rate variation are dictated by the input of the two branches of the autonomic nervous system: the sympathetic nervous system and the parasympathetic nervous systems. These two branches have antagonistic effects on most bodily functions. Time and frequency domain analyses are able to estimate the relative effect of each branch on the periodic variations of the heart rate. The elegance of this new method resides in the fact that all measurements are derived from electrocardiograms, so patients are not subjected to any discomfort.

 
Our research on fibromyalgia.

We studied a group of patients with fibromyalgia and compared them with healthy controls. By means of portable recorders, we registered the subjects' heartbeat for 24 hours while they followed their routine daily activities. We found that patients with fibromyalgia have relentless hyperactivity of the sympathetic nervous system. This abnormality was also evident during sleeping hours. In a different study, we subjected patients with fibromyalgia to a simple stress test (to stand up). We observed a paradoxical derangement of the sympathetic nervous system response to the upright posture. Such findings have been confirmed by other groups of investigators.

The results of these studies suggest that a fundamental alteration of fibromyalgia is a disordered function of the autonomic nervous system. Patients with fibromyalgia lose the normal day/night cycles (circadian rhythms) and have a relentless sympathetic hyperactivity throughout 24 hours. This may explain the sleeping problems that the patients have. At the same time, such individuals have sympathetic hypo-reactivity to stress, which could explain the profound fatigue, morning stiffness and other complaints associated to low blood pressure. This autonomic nervous system dysfunction could induce other symptoms of fibromyalgia such as irritable bowel, urinary discomfort, limb numbness, anxiety and dryness of the eyes and mouth."

 
 

Is it possible that the "relentless sympathetic hyperactivity" and "sympathetic hypo-reactivity to stress" are due to the 1,25 D docking into other nuclear receptors and messing with the normal balance and function of other hormones including adrenaline?

Last edited on Sun Apr 11th, 2010 14:56 by Rosie



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Rosie
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 Posted: Wed Apr 14th, 2010 11:07

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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2772072/
 
Fut Rheumatol. 2008 October 1; 3(5): 475–483
 
Heart rate variability as a biomarker of fibromyalgia syndrome
Roland Staud, MD
 
Conclusion
 
Autonomic dysfunction of FM patients seems to be strongly associated with reduced total power of HRV, low vagal tone, decreased baroreceptor sensitivity and increased sympathetic activity [60,68]. Such ANS abnormalities have not only been associated with greater risk of developing hypertension [69], but also greater mortality, mostly from cardiovascular causes [70]. Interestingly, several epidemiological studies have reported significantly increased mortality of FM patients compared with matched controls [71,72], but the decreased long-term survival of FM patients was not associated with cardiovascular diseases but with malignancies and infections. ANS dysfunction may have contributed to this poor outcome. Future studies will be necessary to assess whether ANS abnormalities play an important role in the increased mortality of FM patients.



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Terri R.N.C.
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 Posted: Thu Apr 15th, 2010 06:14

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This information makes me think of two things.  One, the cardiac symptoms are obviously due to the bacteria involvement and it's defestating effects on the heart tissue.  Two, the autonomic nervous system involvement explains why we who suffer from FM have frequent palpitations.  The palpitations become more obvious and occur more often with the MP.  I use to think it was a side effect of Benicar, but as I progress on the protocol one realizes that it is the MP doing it's job of uncovering these nasty bugs.:shock:



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Thu Apr 15th, 2010 08:04

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:)

BIGDOG
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 Posted: Thu Apr 15th, 2010 12:34

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Rosie,

I also believe that latent intracellular bacteria are affecting so many of us, specifically in the nervous system (nerves of various systems).

With their reproduction cycles, and or our immune functions waxing and waning, these bugs can cause the intermittent "flutters" so many of us experience(d).

I personally believe that the nerve involvement triggers a host of ailments down the line, and this is also one very large reason it is hard to track down for the medical community.

One cause, many different symptoms I've been thinking.

:D



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Bane
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 Posted: Sat Apr 17th, 2010 09:10

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Stress may be a trigger of bowel disease symptoms

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE63F3AW20100416

"This is among the first evidence to show that the perception of stress had a direct association with disease course," Dr. Charles N. Bernstein, the lead researcher on the new study, told Reuters Health in an email.

BIGDOG
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 Posted: Tue Apr 20th, 2010 16:24

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Hmmm,

Stress = adrenaline dump = trigger for certain Th1 critters

I also wonder if isn't a nasty little cycle.

Some of these successful bugs share certain genes...

I've noticed so many individuals become very very upset and erratic with a sudden trigger of fear, startling, scare, or sudden excitement.

I would just observe and wonder why such a "small" trigger would induce such a seemingly disproportionate response, often in anger, rage, or physically rash movements... most notable not rational.

I am now thinking that the adrenaline and/or it's analougs are triggering latent critters into releasing some compounds, which profoundly affect us.

Or, a chain of events...

It just fits so well.

I hope Dr. M. and Co. can elucidate some of the macro steps.

:)



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Aunt Diana
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 Posted: Tue Apr 20th, 2010 19:00

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I can truly relate to your idea....I have never been as calm as I am now after 3 years of the MP. I used to get hysterical over things that today would probably bother me, but I would be able to think them through.



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 Posted: Wed Apr 21st, 2010 04:35

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I have never been as calm as I am now after 3 years of the MP
I can say the same thing, except when the herxing comes back and hits me.  Then I am as edgy as I ever was and tend to be very verbal and excitable.  Had a bad day at work where that came up and bit me not long ago.  The fight's not over yet, but I can see what part the bugs play in the emotional aspects.  Since neural repair is the last to happen, I'm hoping that the neural herxing is a sign that I'm in the final push. 




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Bane
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 Posted: Tue May 11th, 2010 14:39

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U-M study sheds light on the biological roots of post-traumatic stress disorder

http://www.ns.umich.edu/htdocs/releases/story.php?id=7673

The researchers identified numerous genes—most of them involved in regulating the immune system—that appeared to be more active in people with PTSD. Previous studies have posited a link between altered immune function and PTSD. The new U-M findings support that model and go a step further by identifying a specific biochemical reaction that may be involved.

eClaire
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 Posted: Tue May 11th, 2010 19:44

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Hmmm... seems to me I remember Dr. Marshall saying that PTSD was immune related! :D:D:D

Great find!  Thanks a lot!!!

Forwarding to my psychologist....

Claire



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Phillyguy
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 Posted: Mon May 24th, 2010 18:40

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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20441518

Recognition of Borrelia burgdorferi by NOD2 is central for the induction of an inflammatory reaction.

Toll-like receptor 2 (TLR2) plays an important role in the recognition of Borrelia bacteria, the causative agent of Lyme disease, but the existence and importance of additional receptors in this process has been hypothesized. In the present study, we confirmed the role played by TLR2 in the recognition of Borrelia bacteria but also demonstrated a crucial role for the intracellular peptidoglycan receptor NOD2 for sensing the spirochete. Cells from individuals who were homozygous for the loss-of-function mutation 3020insC in the NOD2 gene were defective with respect to cytokine release after stimulation with Borrelia species, and this was confirmed in peritoneal macrophages from mice lacking RICK, the adaptor molecule used by NOD2. In contrast, NOD1 played no major role in the recognition of Borrelia spirochetes. This raises the intriguing possibility that recognition of Borrelia spirochetes is exerted by TLR2 in combination with NOD2 and that both receptors are necessary for an effective induction of cytokines by Borrelia species. The interplay between TLR2 and NOD2 might not only be necessary for the induction of a proper immune response but may also contribute to inflammatory-induced pathology

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 Posted: Fri Jun 18th, 2010 15:38

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Bacteria do not only get lonely.....but criminal, too......and organized ....

The quintessence is already known but it is enjoyable

Mafia Wars


http://www.the-scientist.com/2010/6/1/40/1/


Titta



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PGA Terry
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 Posted: Fri Jun 18th, 2010 22:32

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The lack of these key cell membrane components, however, is not without consequences, Rikihisa adds. Without LPS and peptidoglycan, “their membrane structure becomes more fragile,” she says. To compensate, the bacteria take up cholesterol from host cells, which stabilizes their membranes. In fact, Rikihisa and her colleagues found that A. phagocytophilum infection rates were 10 times higher in mice fed a high-cholesterol diet than in those on a normal diet.2 “So the cholesterol is helping [the pathogen],” she says.

Read more: Mafia Wars - The Scientist - Magazine of the Life Sciences http://www.the-scientist.com/2010/6/1/40/1/#ixzz0rH9rlII2
 

 
My cholesterol levels have been consistently low, 140-160mg/dl during the last 20 years that I've been ill. I wonder if this explains my chronically low cholesterol readings. The lower my cholesterol the less I have weighed and the worse I felt. I am now 135 lbs., 30 lbs. under my weight when I was young and healthy. My lowest weight was 115 lbs., 50lbs underweight and at my lowest cholesterol readings, before I started the MP.

Terry 

                                                



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 Posted: Sat Jun 19th, 2010 05:46

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"Sneeze girl gets a diagnosis"

.............the junk they dish out to us is mind-boggling!!!!!


My 65 year old Uncle sneezed for 3 weeks in the 1950's........PANDA...Pleease!!!!!!!

Dian
 



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eClaire
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 Posted: Sat Jun 19th, 2010 07:37

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Terry, my overall cholesterol has been high, approaching 300, though the balance is good, and I have been very sick.  Many folk with ME/CFS have high cholesterol.  I never bought the link between cholesterol and heart disease, and sure enough the talk is almost all about inflammation now even though cholesterol medication is given out like candy.  That was the only drug I would not try to the great frustration of my doctor. 

It seems to me that the various pathogens that makes up a single person's microbiota might have different uses for different things and therefore promote whatever ecology it needs.

My two cents... Claire



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PGA Terry
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 Posted: Sat Jun 19th, 2010 21:17

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I think you're right on, Claire. My mix of microbiota is probably quite different than yours, plus our differences in genetic makeup. Since starting the MP I've gained 15 lbs  :) and I wonder if my cholesterol has increased as well.

Terry



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 Posted: Sun Jun 20th, 2010 05:14

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   I want to express some musing on our immune system during 3 years of productive malaise 'fighting off infections' on the MP.
   We have a plethora of examples of clever parasites manipulating the immune system to their advantage, often to placate or blindside it to allow them a comfortable abode in our cells. However, let us not think that all the guile lies with the parasites while our immune system is just the fall guy.
   Our immune system, or earlier variants of it, has kept everyone of our ancestors alive to reproduce and by and large to provide nourishment and protection for themselves and at least some of their offspring. There must have been many times when they had to fight off potentially fatal infections: but equally there must have been many times when inconvenient IP could have rendered them ineffective in the face of perilous situations.
  An imperative for the immune system has been to allow our ancestors to be fit to meet the exigencies of life. Its mechanism is to avoid unnecessary IP. This it does by turning away from battles that don't need to be won, because the war is unlikely to be lost before the host can reproduce. This may not be completely suitable to us today, not octogenarians like me anyway: but we have to be happy that it got us here in the first place. And now we have Dr Marshall to help us when we have the luxury to survive despite the malaise of IP.



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 Posted: Sun Jun 20th, 2010 05:27

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I am continually in awe of what a healthy immune system can do. When I was in Shanghai, a one-inch gash was cut out of the top of my left foot by the door of the bathroom alcove at the hotel.

I applied antibiotic gel, and a 4x2 band-aid, and the next morning went to the CPhI conference, continually on my feet for 8 hours of solid walking.

That night there was some pus near the center of the gash, I cleaned the wound, applied some antibiotic gel again, and left the wound open overnight. I applied a 4x2 patch the next morning, and again the wound withstood 8 hours of constant walking inside my formal dress shoes...

Took the dressing off for the second night, and by the morning the wound looked good. I put a band-aid on it (the last large 4x2 inch patch in my traveling first-aid kit). Another day of walking, another night of healing, and I didn't even need any more band-aids or wound dressing.

My feet were in the same shoes without a break for 18 hours flying home that day, no problems.

I can remember when cuts used to take weeks to heal.. in fact, they have always taken weeks to heal, not 3 days...
 

eClaire
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 Posted: Sun Jun 20th, 2010 06:54

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Interesting Dr. Marshall.

Just like the cholesterol example above, unlike you, wounds always healed very quickly for me (super quickly).  I had bad acne as a teen as well and was not left with the terrible scars that others ended up with with similar problems.  And unlike many with immune issues, I did not seem to catch much of anything... never a cold and extremely few viruses.  Rather than look haggard and worn out, I look much younger than my years for the longest time.  My hair was lustrous and fast growing for years (though my nails were horrendous).

I know I am not alone in this--being very sick--but defying some of the things reported like those listed above.  I know I'm not alone because I've heard similar reports from others on the MP. 

Once again, this leads me back to how our microbiota determines much of these differences... just as it determines which disease label we get.

Jigsaw, your point is well taken.  I see a lot of wisdom in that.  Perhaps that might explain why the immune system down regulates during extreme stress (in the same way that bowels empty when people become very fearful).

Claire



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Dec 2006, Olmesartan break Feb - April 2007, ME/Fibro/PTSD/MCS/Hypermobility (since childhood; disabled 2003); 25D summer 2012 <4 (meaning unable to detect)

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