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FDA investigating the safety of Benicar
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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Tue Mar 15th, 2011 20:08

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The key to the level of damage done by the microbiota is their suppression of the innate immune system by infecting and neutralizing phagocytic cells. If the innate immune system continued to operate correctly, there would be no disease from the microbiota, no delayed healing response. That is why the phagocytes are so important.

Have you read our recent papers:

http://www.nature.com/cmi/journal/vaop/ncurrent/abs/cmi201077a.html
http://autoimmunityresearch.org/preprints/Proal2010CellularMolecularImmunologyPreprint.pdf
http://autoimmunityresearch.org/preprints/Proal_MHB_Chapter_preprint.pdf

or seen the recent presentations? http://www.youtube.com/user/DrTrevorMarshall

I do think we have a pretty good handle on the pathogenesis at this point, enough to guide anybody who wants to learn :)
 

TikBitten
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 Posted: Tue Mar 15th, 2011 20:34

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How embarrassing at this point in the treatment protocol, eh, but thanks for clearing things up!! 

Guess that's what happens when you venture off for too long. ;)  Be assured, I will readdress my understanding of phagocytic cell neutralization and its impact on innate immunity before posting further. 

Sincere apology for sapping up time and energy.

R/TB



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Dx:Neurborreliosis 8/05|25D=46 1,25D=62 10/07|Avoid Sun&VitD since 10/07|Started Ph1&NoIRs 3/08|25D=18 3/08|25D=17 6/08|ModPh2 6/08|Ph2 9/08 stopped NoIRs|Ph3 1/09|25D=13 3/09|25D=10 5/09|25D=11 7/09|25D=15 9/09|25D=9 4/11
Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Tue Mar 15th, 2011 20:39

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Feel free to keep posting :) I prefer it that way. The community is now pretty active, and will be able to steer you to new stuff from time to time :)
 

TikBitten
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 Posted: Tue Mar 15th, 2011 20:50

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Just to be clear, the first two links posted above refer to the same article "Immunostimulation in the Era of the Metagenome" albeit the first points to the published article the second to Amy's original preprint? 

Want to make sure I'm not missing something...

TXS/TB

Last edited on Tue Mar 15th, 2011 20:52 by TikBitten



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Dx:Neurborreliosis 8/05|25D=46 1,25D=62 10/07|Avoid Sun&VitD since 10/07|Started Ph1&NoIRs 3/08|25D=18 3/08|25D=17 6/08|ModPh2 6/08|Ph2 9/08 stopped NoIRs|Ph3 1/09|25D=13 3/09|25D=10 5/09|25D=11 7/09|25D=15 9/09|25D=9 4/11
Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Tue Mar 15th, 2011 20:54

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Yes, since we are only allowed to put preprints online, and not the actual full Nature.com papers, we link to the "official" abstract as well as give you the "unofficial" full text :)

tammy1000
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 Posted: Wed Mar 16th, 2011 03:50

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Dr. Marshall,

You posted:

It is very difficult to measure what is happening inside the phagocytic cells. With only a few exceptions (the video of HIV invasions, for example) all the current research is focused at much larger blobs of tissue. And much of it is performed in animals and cell lines, which are not the same as a living, breathing, human being... 


I have some understanding of the Marshall Protocol hypothesis, but no understanding of the technology supporting biological research. If human and financial resources were available, would it be possible to confirm that recovery with the MP actually involves restoring normal function of the VDR, killing bacteria, normalization of function in other nuclear receptors, etc.

I believe that the MP has been responsible for many people recovering their lives. I am sure that your model is very sophisticated. However, in my own work, I have found a great difference between modeling and reality.

Respectfully, Tammy 

 



____________________
VitD restr. Dec'08, Problems w/Olm '09-'10, Presently: 40mg Olm @6hrs; 88' Severe MCS/allergies, asthma, cognitive, arthritis, bone loss, periodontal
Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Wed Mar 16th, 2011 07:21

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Tammy, there is a lot more to the actions of the microbiota than we typically discuss, and we also know much more about the actions of Olmesartan than you will find here. I try and keep the science summarized enough so that everybody can understand the key points. I travel to the medical major conferences, and nobody is bothered about 'modeling' there :) In fact, Prof Vieth can be heard at the end of the Q&A session at the Scottish Vit D Summit saying that he wishes he had the research tools which we have :)

Have you really read all that is in the paper and book chapter just published? There is a lot of science in them that goes way beyond what the early emulations taught us.
 
http://autoimmunityresearch.org/preprints/Proal_MHB_Chapter_preprint.pdf
http://autoimmunityresearch.org/preprints/Proal2010CellularMolecularImmunologyPreprint.pdf

It is a terrible mistake to think that the MP science is shallow or incomplete. :) Remember what Arthur C. Clarke mused: "Any sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic."

To pierce that veil of 'magic' takes a lot of understanding and hard work :) A good start would be to start discussing the intricacies in the paper and chapter above :)
 

tammy1000
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 Posted: Wed Mar 16th, 2011 09:31

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Dr. Marshall,

I highly respect you personally and your foundation, and believe that the MP has turned many peoples lives around.

I have read your (meaning your team) recent work. (I first started reading about it in Dec. 2008.) I am still a little weak in the area of genetic expression and the work in genetic sequencing (end of book chapter).

I have often said that you present the best science that I have ever read, but I am not qualified judge your work. I believe you when you say that your model is judged by your peers as being extremely sophisticated. But I don't know the work involved in developing software that is capable of simulating biological models. I only know things from my limited perspective. I am not of Nobel Prize material, and I battle brain fog.

I only personally know what I have seen in conventional electrical power system work. Many people perform simulations with "excellent results" in the framework of the modelling tools, which are not always accurate representations of the real world. In my own field I deal with stoichastic - not deterministic - phenomenon. There any many influences which affect phenomenon that I try to model that are beyond what I can encompass in a simple model. Yet, I know and can see the effects of these parameters, but I cannot grasp them quantitatively due to complexity and limited/difficulty acquiring such data. I have spent enough time in my field to see and understand significant shortcomings of esteemed work which I used to highly admire.


I have also seen people develop extremely compelling arguments for models or theories related to electrical power systems. I have even felt persuaded, and then I wake up, and based on only my own experiences/work realize and see exactly why they are entirely wrong.

I am not trying to be disrespectful, and I hope that you will allow me to continue to be part of your community and to learn. My work is truly very simple compared to yours.


Your theory seems flawless to my untrained mind. However, I am also a pragmatist. If your theory is complete, perfect, and flawless (say r2=1), I don't understand why many people have to continue taking the olmesartan, sometimes with antibiotics, to maintain the level of recovery they have achieved after several years of MP protocol. (As an analogy, even r2=0.95 is excellent in terms of accurate modeling.)

At this point in my life, if I am able to turn my life around with MP (it has been a bumpy ride for me personally) -- I will consider it nothing short of a miracle, your good science, and Dr. Blaney's patience. Taking the meds will just be what I need to do to have a good quality of life.



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VitD restr. Dec'08, Problems w/Olm '09-'10, Presently: 40mg Olm @6hrs; 88' Severe MCS/allergies, asthma, cognitive, arthritis, bone loss, periodontal
keithw
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 Posted: Wed Mar 16th, 2011 14:33

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I am one of the people who has had their life turned around by MP despite what many of the "peers" believe to be true.

I am not a peer, I am a patient and my interest in peers is along the lines of "pay attention".

I joined the study group because the "peers" had nothing but textbook medicine to fall back on as an excuse when the patient died.:shock:

That said we are not a done deal yet!
I give my time willingly in an attempt to provide more feedback to the team to streamline the protocol, making it safer and quicker and more available.
It helps when members post regularly and interact with each other as it increases the size of the information pool we can access.

I quite agree there are other "cures" around the world which are proven false over time, Vitamin D is a classic example.
People still push it though, plenty of money to be made yet!
It takes years for the word to get around even with the internet so unscrupulous people will continue to clean up.:X

I don't know if MP will change the world, but it changes our world and that is enough.;)



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Grateful Survivor
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 Posted: Wed Mar 16th, 2011 14:39

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Eloquently said, Keith. :dude:



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jrfoutin
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 Posted: Wed Mar 16th, 2011 16:27

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Good to read your discussion Tammy.

You asked

"I don't understand why many people have to continue taking the olmesartan, sometimes with antibiotics, to maintain the level of recovery they have achieved after several years of MP protocol."

I'm not sure people --have-- to continue taking olmesartan to maintain the level of recovery. My own personal experience had me off all olmesartan and abx for a year when the economic crisis hit my personal wallet.

I returned to olmesartan when I could, because I wanted to see if there was more I could get out of the process, --not-- because I need to continue the process to survive.

There are several paradigm shifts in comprehending immune function and the extent of immune capability when it is enabled that are worth exploring. Some paradigms associated with what we've been seeing in our cohort just don't match up to paradigms created from decades of seeing medical intervention through the prism of immune suppression and sans new technologies that allow cutting edge researchers to see farther than test tubes, Petri dishes and animal models.

Take some time to read MPKB.org (search by topic). Read Marshall's and others' articles, and follow the MP in one's own life by doing the MP and only the MP. Science is interesting stuff.

Best to you Tammy--Janet



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TikBitten
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 Posted: Wed Mar 16th, 2011 17:47

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tammy1000 wrote: ....I don't understand why many people have to continue taking the olmesartan, sometimes with antibiotics, to maintain the level of recovery they have achieved after several years of MP protocol....


Thought I might take a stab at addressing the statement above... 

Please keep in mind my response, however, is predicated on the understanding that everyone is burdened with some level of microbiota, as even a typical healthy individual harbors 1.2kg on average, and probably always will be…. 

In the case of those of us who finally turned to the MP, probably often as a last resort, the microbiota burden was likely extensive (overall load) and virulent.  The term “virulent” implying down regulation of VDR expression so significant as to undermine adaptive and then innate immunity, and homeostatic imbalance from the plethora of non-human metabolites including neurotoxins and biotoxins. 

That being said, if we fast forward our thinking a few years, to the point where a normal state of health is achieved, the question arises as to why one would want to expose themselves to a risk of relapse?  Especially as there is likely little chance of clearing the body entirely of microbiota and only a slight chance of fundamentally changing the shared genetic makeup and mix.  

Improving diet, of course, in favor of food sources that tend to harbor bacterial forms less favorable toward biofilm formation may be a good step, but it's probably only a small step at best.  But this leads to an obvious question and hope Dr. Marshall has compiled enough study data to be able to answer it:

Q) In contrast to the therapeutic dose of 40mg/q6h of Olmesartan usually required during MP recovery, what is the “minimum” therapeutic dose needed to prevent VDR re-impairment of phagocytes beyond the 48-60 month MP time frame?  (ie. 40mg/q24h? 40mg/q12h? 40mg/q8h? or possibly 20mg/q24h? 20mg/q12h? 20mg/q8h?)       

Hopefully I've theorized correctly.

Regards/TikBitten

Last edited on Wed Mar 16th, 2011 18:07 by TikBitten



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Wed Mar 16th, 2011 18:13

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Tikbitten, as the body recovers, the intervals between olmesartan dosing tend to stretch. Eventually you don't notice when you don't take it at all...

I hypothesize (for there is no other way I know to figure it out) that the microbes attack VDR by all means possible, including via hostile protease activity. A recent paper identified that the species Shigella does indeed increase the activity of Caspase 1, and it is likely that Caspase 3, thought to be the VDR's primary nemesis, is also targeted by one of the thousands of species present in the human microbiome. Aeromonas also targets protease activity.

So here is what I think. As the microbes become more virulent, the VDR which are expressed are also quickly broken down by proteases, after perhaps just a few hours of activity. It is important to keep a significant concentration of Olmesartan in the blood at all times, so it is there when the VDR are looking for ligands. This leads to the 4-6 hour optimum dosing interval (3 hours when somebody is in distress with IP).

Thus the dosing interval is inversely proportional to the degree of microbial activity. Which is certainly true in the limiting situation -- healthy people get no IP :)

You can read more about this in the MPKB :)
 

Cairo123
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 Posted: Wed Mar 16th, 2011 18:53

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Does this mean Benicar for life?



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Wed Mar 16th, 2011 19:13

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No, only until you are happy that you are close enough to "healthy" not to want any more healing...
 

keithw
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 Posted: Wed Mar 16th, 2011 21:03

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I remember in the old notes a one month program every year to clean up was recommended, is that still valid?



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Thu Mar 17th, 2011 03:48

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Sort of valid :)
One starts to use antibiotics again for the job they were designed to do - deal with acute pathogens. I use Bactrim when traveling in Asia -- to allow me to eat local foods without diarrhea, and a single clindy is good for dealing with the bugs picked up after 15 hours in an aircraft cabin.

But there is not much point scheduling any special "clean-up" of the chronic microbiota as the body seems to do the job well enough with Olmesartan.
 
Oh -- eventually you get to the point where there is no IP induced by the abx any more...
 

Cairo123
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 Posted: Thu Mar 17th, 2011 15:09

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Does the point where anti-biotics have no affect come before or after stage 5?



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Thu Mar 17th, 2011 15:26

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Not everybody suffers from Stage 5.  In my case, I had little antibiotics sensitivity left when Stage 5 hit. Stage 5 was at the 5 year mark..

Deedee
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 Posted: Thu Mar 17th, 2011 17:31

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Is this still current information?

A smaller dose taken more frequently such as 20mg every two, three, or four hours may keep symptoms more tolerable. Some very symptomatic patients find they feel best taking 20mg of Benicar every three hours during the day and then 40mg at bedtime with the next dose six hours later. A typical schedule would be 20mg at 6am, 9am, noon, 3pm, 6pm, 9pm and then 40mg at midnight. That would be equivalent to 40mg every six hours or 160mg in a 24-hour period.



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06/08 Sarc in lymph nodes. Chronic high lipids. 2010 heath cat scan-zero plaque. 11/12 D8, 12/12 Normal CXR except scarred lymph node, normal PFTs 8/12 Off all MP meds. Metabolic Syndrome

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