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Every week brings more bad news for Vitamin D
 Moderated by: Prof Trevor Marshall Page:  First Page Previous Page  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  ...  Next Page Last Page  
 

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scooker48
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 Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2012 08:02

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A small pilot study of Marin County women determined through testing to be at high risk for breast cancer found them to be almost twice as likely to have a variant of a vitamin D receptor as the overall population of 338 in the study.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/health/article/Marin-breast-cancer-linked-to-vitamin-D-3770785.php#ixzz239xaofrq

 



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2012 16:59

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The final few slides in my St Petersburg presentation explain how the Genetic testing being done these days is subject to very significant errors. I stated that many, perhaps most, of these "mutations" or "haplotypes" or whatever are just artifacts of microbes affecting the assembly of the human genome.
 

NickBowler
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 Posted: Mon Sep 3rd, 2012 06:47

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New 'map' from the International Osteoporosis Foundation: http://www.iofbonehealth.org/facts-and-statistics/vitamin-d-studies-map



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fibro
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 Posted: Mon Sep 3rd, 2012 12:26

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When you look at the vitamin D map for adults, what is interesting is that there is no latitude correlation which would be expected if low 25D was caused by lack of sunlight rather than, as we believe, by disease. In fact there is a noticeable difference in east to west.

I wonder if this could be a mendelian genetic difference that causes "normal" 25D levels to be different in populations from eastern Europe and Asia as opposed to western Europe and the Americas? The numbers dominant immigrant white American population is presumably drawn mainly from western Europe, both in North and South America.

Also interesting is that there is a noticeable difference in D status from Northern Ireland and Eire, in spite of the fact that lifestyle and diet is probably very similar. However, the northern part of the island of Ireland probably has a much larger population of historical immigration from Scotland and northern England simply because of greater proximity and the D levels there are indeed similar.

It is notable too that Iceland has relatively low levels of D compared to Norway and Scotland, its closest geographic neighbours but Iceland probably has a large Danish genetic influence since it is administered by Denmark and Denmark again has similar low levels of vitamin D.

The D level in Australia, is predictably the same as in western Europe, whilst South Africa with a rather more eastern Dutch immigrant population and native South African population has lower levels of vitamin D -  even though it is at a similar latitude as Australia.

Case closed.

fibro




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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Mon Sep 3rd, 2012 13:20

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Case closed.
But you see, this is where Scientific method is so important. Have you considered whether Danish immigrants to Iceland continue to prefer the same foodstuffs as their families were accustomed to in Denmark? Certainly I can remember the Greek and Chinese migrants in Australia bringing their own cuisine. It is critical to explore all hypotheses, alternative and null, before accepting the most obvious.

In any case, it is not the Mendelian genes which tend to be dysregulated by migration, they are overwhelmed by the non-Mendelian SNPs. All 20 million of them (at last count).

Also, I doubt that the food sources and processing for Northern Ireland and Ireland are the same. I would want to check that one out in more detail...
 

fibro
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 Posted: Mon Sep 3rd, 2012 13:50

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Yes - "Case Closed" was very tongue-in-cheek to say the least! :)

However, the real point I was making is that if low 25D was caused by lack of sunlight we ought to see the famous latitude gradient - which we don't. The hypothetical racial origin variation was really an aside. Nonetheless there is some evidence that vitamin D metabolism varies with ethnic origin. See:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn22234-vitamin-d-may-increase-ivf-success--depending-on-race.html

 Bearing in mind that there is an optimum level of 25D, where less generally indicates  lowered health status and more is counterproductive in terms of optimum immune response, the opposite effects seen in the report above would fit well with an optimum level varying dependent on ethnic origin.

fibro



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Mon Sep 3rd, 2012 15:00

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Bearing in mind that there is an optimum level of 25D, where less generally indicates  lowered health status
Given? Why is that given? Maybe the 25-D level on blood just reflects the blood's ability to transport it (via DBP / GcMAF) and the level of 25-D synthesis in adipose (etc) tissues? It seems that the teens is the range (12-19ng/ml) where healthy kids seem to measure, and I would tend to emphasize those early data levels to middle-aged data :) But maybe the DBP / GcMAF values vary quite a lot, even in healthy folk, based on environment, genes (etc). Maybe the synthesis varies too, even in health. I don't think we know enough about any of that just yet...
 

fibro
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 Posted: Mon Sep 3rd, 2012 15:52

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If 25D can't be transported because of low levels of DBP, the low level of 25D measured will still be an indication of health risk because low DBP seems to be a health risk.

See;  http://www.foodconsumer.org/newsite/Nutrition/Vitamins/vitamin_d_binding_protein_pancreatic_cancer_0830120606.html

I was interested to see that 12-19 ng/ml is the range that healthy kids seems to measure. From various sources I came to the conclusion that 21ng/ml seemed to be about right. I recently saw an interesting bar chart showing the effect of supplementation on 25D levels which seemed to indicate that it was fairly easy for supplementation to raise 25D to 21 ng/ml but thereafter it was more difficult. That seemed perhaps to indicate that some feedback mechanism came into play at that level.

But when I said there was an optimum level, I meant that to apply to the individual.
In absence of knowing that level, an average level for a population seems an appropriate level to use.

I take your point though that that level may not be at all well defined. I have a friend who is a retired gastroenterologist, who got  his own 25D level tested, purely out of curiosity. According to him (and I don't know the figures), it was exceedingly low. Significantly he claims to be in perfect health at 62.

fibro





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findinganswers
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 Posted: Mon Sep 3rd, 2012 18:40

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http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/09/03/tuberculosis-vitamin-d-idINL6E8JUB6O20120903

I couldn't find this study in pubmed. I understand why vitamin d supplementation would "dampen down the body's inflammatory response" and why "inflammatory markers fell further and faster in patients receiving vitamin D," but I wonder why "Mycobacterium tuberculosis, the bacteria that cause TB, cleared from the phlegm coughed up from deep in the lungs faster in patients on vitamin D, taking an average of 23 days to become undetectable under the microscope compared to 36 days in those on placebo."



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Mon Sep 3rd, 2012 21:21

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FindingAnswers: perhaps because the Mycobacteria didn't go away, but just relocated into those warm, friendly, human cells to live out their years in comfort? :)

Fibro: wouldn't you expect the body's down-regulation to kick in at the top of the safe range? To stop the dose becoming unsafe?

It is tough to find data on untouched populations, especially these days. You really need to get away from all the physicians advising mothers that Vit D is good for their kids :X Part of the problem is that all the milk and milk powder shipped to under-developed countries has been Vit-D fortified since the 1950s. However, there was one study which caught my eye when I was first looking into defining an untouched level. It is:

"Vitamin D deficiency: a concern in premenopausal Bangladeshi women of two socio-economic groups in rural and urban region"

http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v56/n1/full/1601284a.html

It was well-done, with apparently little bias, on a group of people least likely to have been touched by the last half-decade of stupidity. Indeed, the authors commented: "Apparently, the main reasons for this situation are linked to traditional avoidance of sun exposure or lack of direct exposure to sunshine, diet failing to provide an adequate amount of vitamin D, and no use of supplementation."

Yes indeed, that insidious hidden supplementation in our food chain was not helping these poor folk :)

There are other studies, too. Please check out the MPKB, where Paul has catalogued quite a few:  click here for the MPKB article.

..Trevor..

fibro
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 Posted: Tue Sep 4th, 2012 15:14

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wouldn't you expect the body's down-regulation to kick in at the top of the safe range? To stop the dose becoming unsafe?

Absolutely.  21ng/ml and your 19ng/ml are in pretty good agreement for the top of the normal range.


Just saw this today:

Vitamin D supplements raise LDL cholesterol:

http://health.usnews.com/health-news/news/articles/2012/09/04/vitamin-d-supplements-wont-help-cholesterol-levels-study

Fibro



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Ron
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 Posted: Wed Oct 3rd, 2012 13:44

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Effect of Vitamin D3 Supplementation on Upper Respiratory Tract Infections in Healthy Adults

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1367547

Conclusion
  In this trial, monthly administration of 100 000 IU of vitamin D did not reduce the incidence or severity of URTIs in healthy adults.

:shock::?:shock::D:shock:

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 Posted: Thu Oct 4th, 2012 08:38

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I don't know how this news report went so off the rails. (there's an ad at the beginning).

http://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/video?playlistId=1.980886

Deb



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Gerard
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 Posted: Mon Oct 15th, 2012 11:34

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Are Vitamin D Levels and Cardiovascular Risk Related?
http://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/771643?src=cmemp




People with low levels of vitamin D have an increased risk of heart attack, of dying early on from cardiovascular disease, and this is an important message.

Nordestgaard stresses, however, that the findings don't prove cause and effect--while low vitamin-D levels may lead directly to heart disease and death, it's also possible that vitamin-D deficiency is a marker for poor health generally, he says.



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 Posted: Sat Dec 15th, 2012 00:22

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Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health launches vitamin D campaign

http://www.rcpch.ac.uk/news/rcpch-launches-vitamin-d-campaign

:shock::(:shock:

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 Posted: Sat Dec 15th, 2012 05:07

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C'mon Ron that site is certified by the HONcode of conduct and besides correlation is damn near the same as causation which means that ...

... Hold on isn' t this the bad news for Vitamin d thread ...?

I have a new slogan for the Royal Vitamin D charity fundraiser foundation folks on Theobald Lane.

"Vitamin D - It's like magic!!"

Thank goodness for the HONcode of conduct.



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bongocongo
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 Posted: Thu Dec 20th, 2012 01:40

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Wow: Never seen them go this far before.

'People can only get a fraction (10%) of their recommended daily amount of vitamin D through food and very little from sunlight. So getting out in the sun more or eating more oily fish isn’t going to solve the problem.'

Can only get a fraction of the recommended amount through food and sunlight? Doesn't that imply that prior to the invention of supplements nobody in history ever had reached the recommended amount? Geez. Where is evolution when you need it?

'Lack of vitamin D is related to a plethora of serious illnesses in children and adults that could be prevented through relatively simple steps such as taking supplements.'

Doesn't that imply that prior to the invention of supplements every child and adult had a plethora of serious illnesses the whole of their lives?
Doesn't it imply that evolution doesn't work since we didn't evolve to produce more from sunlight? That creationism is correct, that a benevolent God is looking after us by leaving us short of Vitamin D... Let me run through that again.
 
 
Comment by Trevor: :) :) :)



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 Posted: Thu Dec 20th, 2012 02:43

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bongocongo wrote:
Doesn't that imply that prior to the invention of supplements every child and adult had a plethora of serious illnesses the whole of their lives?
Doesn't it imply that evolution doesn't work since we didn't evolve to produce more from sunlight?

Much as I disagree with the original comment on vitamin D, I don't think the implications you mention follow. Darwinian selection
a) is somewhat hampered by altruism etc in human societies &
b) only really operates on illnesses that reduce reproductive chances.
Given the late onset of the degenerative diseases they're talking about, and the relatively early age of reproduction humans had until very recently (in evolutionary time) it's not clear that evolutionary forces would operate (strongly?) to select against them. (Well, not to me, anyway :) )

And doesn't this argument apply just as well to the Marshall Pathogenesis: it's impossible for bacteria to exploit the VDR receptor to inhibit the immune response - mammals would have evolved a solution! We have more than an inkling that we haven't ;)



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 Posted: Thu Dec 20th, 2012 04:13

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But what about the other hominids that we evolved from? Presumably, they were similar to us and subject to evolution.

Deb



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And I don't know when - Kate Bush
Aplastic anemia Apr/10, PRCA Jan/09, Agranulocytosis 1991
25D = 25 1,25D = 58 Aug 18/09|25D<4.8 Mar/10|10.8 Nov/12
Sep '09 q8h Nov '09 q6h
Markt9452
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 Posted: Thu Dec 20th, 2012 04:33

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My observation is de-volution and selection FOR the disease.



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