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Every week brings more bad news for Vitamin D
 Moderated by: Prof Trevor Marshall Page:  First Page Previous Page  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  ...  Next Page Last Page  
 

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leroybrown
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 Posted: Thu Dec 20th, 2012 04:37

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It does seem that way...



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pgeek
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 Posted: Thu Dec 20th, 2012 05:16

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leroybrown wrote:
But what about the other hominids that we evolved from? Presumably, they were similar to us and subject to evolution.

I'm not sure we know when this mutation happened. Anyway, it's not the (a?) relevant mutation for vitamin D metabolism - I just gave it as an example.



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Sallie Q
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 Posted: Thu Dec 20th, 2012 11:13

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since age of reproduction seems to be a primary issue
let us set it at 15 (for the primipara - hoping that is correct term for age at first delivery)

then for various reasons, e.g. predation, lack of mineral balance in food supply, unavoidable pollutants; average age of male partner at death = 45 in pre-history;
perhaps a good comparison is the ratio 3:1 (expected lifespan of male/age of female at first reproduction) for looking at evolutionary pressure on our 'hairy cousins' or other mammals



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bongocongo
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 Posted: Thu Dec 20th, 2012 17:15

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>>Much as I disagree with the original comment on vitamin D, I don't think the implications you mention follow.
It was a poorly conceived joke however I will carry on for the sake of it.

>>Darwinian selection
>>a) is somewhat hampered by altruism etc in human societies &
Sounds like Eugenics. Evolution also works at the group level. Indeed a human cannot survive alone (I mean as a mated pair). I'm with the camp that says that altruism doesn't exist as such. It's a matter of believing that evolution is robust vs falls apart by itself if we don't cooperate.

>>b) only really operates on illnesses that reduce reproductive chances.
Given the late onset of the degenerative diseases they're talking about, and the relatively early age of reproduction humans had until very recently (in evolutionary time) it's not clear that evolutionary forces would operate (strongly?) to select against them. (Well, not to me, anyway :) )

Being social animals we evolve as a group. Consider that humans evolved largely as family groups. Old members beyond their reproductive years were of great value, the example often given is of the oldster who remembers the last water hole to dry up 50 years ago. This would vary with the society of course. There again with chemical processes in the body supposedly occurring in the GHz range what is the difference between living for 40 years or 100? Not much. If the system is stable then it's stable unless pushed off by something powerful. The idea of spontaneous or programmed degeneration is as meaningless in humans as in crocodiles.

The proposition that we are teetering on a knife's edge of too little UV leaving us with a jillion diseases and too much UV leaving us with skin cancer is hard to reconcile with... anything.


>>And doesn't this argument apply just as well to the Marshall Pathogenesis: it's impossible for bacteria to exploit the VDR receptor to inhibit the immune response - mammals would have evolved a solution! We have more than an inkling that we haven't ;

No, the distinction being between competition between fit organisms vs organisms being grossly unadapted to their environment - evolution not working.

e.g. The antelope on the Serengeti may well die young but it does not spontaneously transform into a heap of bones due to a fragile evolutionary process. It's the Lion!



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Sarcoidosis/lungs psoriasis thoracic outlet syndrome orthostatic hypotension Mycoplasma Ph1Mar08 Ph2May08 Ph3Dec08. 25D16nmol/L 4/2013 1-25D70pmol/L 29/12/2009 NoIRs cover up low lux work/home
Chris
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 Posted: Fri Dec 21st, 2012 09:08

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Pgeek, evolution still operates after reproductive capability ends.  Paul Ewald (evolutionary biology prof) showed that having grandparents around to help with physical tasks (and to pass on tradition) is an advantage.  Early old age disability is an evolutionary disadvantage, as it reduces the numbers of able adults vs. the number of children.



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Markt9452
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 Posted: Fri Dec 21st, 2012 10:25

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This is getting confusing.

Can anyone provide evidence for their claims and can we agree on some definitions of the things that we are talking about?



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bongocongo
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 Posted: Fri Dec 21st, 2012 16:41

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>>Can anyone provide evidence for their claims and can we agree on some definitions of the things that we are talking about?

I think everything I said I paraphrased from these authors:
Charles Darwin
Richard Dawkins
Jared Diamond
Paul Ewald



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PTMKaren
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 Posted: Fri Dec 21st, 2012 18:06

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(oops, this is Chris posting from Karen's account ...)

It was a Paul Ewald article that helped me decide to do the MP, as he gave a rationale for expecting sarcoidosis to be caused by infection, based on statistics and evolution.

The article
http://www.isteve.com/infectious_causation_of_disease.pdf

The longer book
http://www.amazon.com/Evolution-Infectious-Disease-Paul-Ewald/dp/0195111397



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fibro
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 Posted: Fri Jan 4th, 2013 22:47

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http://www.news-medical.net/news/20130104/High-vitamin-D-in-pregnancy-may-increase-food-allergy-risk-in-children.aspx

Extract

They found that women in the highest quartile for vitamin D during pregnancy (32.20-60.80 ng/mL) were a significant 3.66-fold more likely to have a child who developed food allergy during their second year of life than those in the bottom quartile (6.13-14.39 ng/mL), following adjustment for various confounders including family atopy history, cotinine level in pregnancy, and vitamin D supplementation in first year of life.

Children of mothers in the highest quartile for vitamin D status in pregnancy also had a significant 1.91-fold increased risk for food allergy within the first 2 years of life compared with children of mothers in the bottom quartile for vitamin D, as well as a 1.59-fold increased risk for having food-specific IgE antibodies.

Children with the highest levels of vitamin D (17.40-40.10 ng/mL) in their cord blood at birth also had a significant 4.65-fold increased risk for developing food allergy in the second year of life compared with children with the lowest levels (1.50-6.98 ng/mL).

Lehmann and team suggest that an inhibition of regulatory T cell numbers at birth associated with high levels of vitamin D in the blood may explain the increased risk for food allergy seen in these children.

fibro



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Markt9452
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 Posted: Sat Jan 5th, 2013 05:06

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uh oh... Better sell the "D Drops" stock.



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Tue Jan 8th, 2013 17:29

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A new double-blinded study of Vit-D supplementation in osteoarthritis shows no benefit, either in reduced pain or reduced joint damage.

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1556148

Interesting that this paper points us to two older studies (ref 12,13) showing that Osteoarthritis leads to low levels of 25-D in the blood, and therefore is a Th1 disease, just like Rheumatoid Arthritis :)
 

Markt9452
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 Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2013 05:06

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Saw that one reported on the local news show last night. Looks like that "cat is out of the bag".



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MP Feb08 (no breaks) light sensitivity, fatigue, confusion, muscle twitching, memory loss, dyslexia, skin lesions, sore feet, electrical sensations, vertigo, tinnitus, 125D20 D25<10 2008
JohnMcC
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 Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2013 15:28

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Markt9452 wrote:
Saw that one reported on the local news show last night. Looks like that "cat is out of the bag".


I make sure I watch that particular section on the local London news - the BS stories they follow up on can boggle the mind and they do have a lot of "D is the cure all"

That particular story cheered me up....



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Nyima
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 Posted: Mon Feb 11th, 2013 00:32

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High 1.25D and low 25D associated with poorest bone health:

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/early/2013/02/04/jc.2012-2772.abstract



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MP start Dec 10 (2 mo. break Jan-Mar '11) | Multinodular thyroid | frequent illness| fatigue | brain-fog | gluten intolerance (poss coeliac), eczema with dairy products | 25D (ng/ml): 4(14 Apr 11), 5.3(26 Apr 13), 4(Jan 14), 5.5(July 14)
Joyful
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 Posted: Mon Feb 11th, 2013 14:58

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Thanks for that link Nyima.
... [high] serum 1,25(OH)2D is associated with higher bone turnover and poorer bone health ...

I think we can explain...
High levels of active 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D despite low levels of the 25-hydroxyvitamin D precursor: implications of dysregulated vitamin D for diagnosis and treatment of chronic disease



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madwolf
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 Posted: Fri Feb 22nd, 2013 11:12

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I came across this article in MEDSCAPE that purports to show that because low 25D is measured in patients with RA, that therefore, low 25D causes, or at least contributes to, RA. 

I noted with interest that they did not measure, nor even talk about 1, 25D.

No further comment is necessary from me.  :shock::D:P:X



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Jermack
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 Posted: Mon Feb 25th, 2013 19:25

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http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/25/17091299-vitamin-d-calcium-may-not-curb-older-womens-risk-for-broken-bones?lite



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stuckpac
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 Posted: Tue Feb 26th, 2013 05:51

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Jermack, regarding the link to the article you mention on vit. D and Calcium supplementation for bones, the last paragraph(s) of the article was the most telling.....

Quote: [Marion Nestle, a nutrition researcher from New York University who coauthored a commentary published alongside the recommendations in the Annals of Internal Medicine, said that good studies on vitamin D are hard to do, and any end to the debate over whether to take supplements or not is a long way off.

"These studies are so difficult to do and to interpret that scientific consensus seems impossible to achieve, especially in situations where entire organizations are devoted to convincing people to take high-dose vitamin D," she wrote in an email to Reuters Health.]

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 Posted: Tue Feb 26th, 2013 07:04

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Yes, don't we have that experience!



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dx sarcoids biop lymph/pulmonary/ tinnitus/ Paresthesia/fatigue/brain fog/leg pain/1,25-D 54/D25 17/Mar08 ph1Jun08/D25 11 Jul08/ ph2Aug08/Ph3Oct08/D3 5.9 Dec09 12-15 d3 <12 1,25D 69 no symptoms
Gerard
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 Posted: Tue Feb 26th, 2013 07:40

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The interests of the pharmaceutical industry are very large and they will find "good":X results to keep using vitD.

Last edited on Tue Feb 26th, 2013 07:41 by Gerard



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