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The Marshall Protocol Study Site > PROF. MARSHALL'S PERSPECTIVE > Prof. Marshall's Perspective > Different bacteria in the gut of autistic children


Different bacteria in the gut of autistic children
 Moderated by: Prof Trevor Marshall Page:  First Page Previous Page  1  2  3   
 

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laura1814
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 Posted: Mon Jul 30th, 2012 18:09

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Interesting. I recently started drinking raw (i.e., unpasteurized) milk from a local farmer and one of the first things I noticed was that my digestion improved. Heartburn is reduced and stools are soft and more regular. Sorry for bringing up poo, but it seems to me that the raw milk is changing my gut flora pretty significantly. I haven't noticed a direct correlation to brain fog but I will pay attention.



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Russ
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 Posted: Wed Aug 8th, 2012 04:04

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laura1814 wrote: Interesting. I recently started drinking raw (i.e., unpasteurized) milk from a local farmer and one of the first things I noticed was that my digestion improved. Heartburn is reduced and stools are soft and more regular. Sorry for bringing up poo, but it seems to me that the raw milk is changing my gut flora pretty significantly. I haven't noticed a direct correlation to brain fog but I will pay attention.
That's interesting.  Do you know what types of bacteria raw milk is supposed to contain?  I wonder if it is the same as the popular probiotics (acidophilus, lactobacillus, etc.).  What do the proponents of raw milk say is the reason for it's health benefits?



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Pamela H-F
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 Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2012 08:05

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If I remember correctly raw milk has enzymes in it that make it more digesstable. Pasturization destroys the enzymes.

Pam



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2012 11:51

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Pamela H-F wrote: If I remember correctly raw milk has enzymes in it that make it more digesstable. Pasturization destroys the enzymes
Pam, it is actually infinitely more complex than that. The microbial content is actually the key factor, not enzymes. Don't get caught up in believing the simplified explanations you read on most Internet websites :) :)

A recent study started to open up the complexity - by showing that some species of bacteria in milk can actually become activated by pasteurization, not killed:

http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/July12/FoodSpoil.html

Additionally, even though raw milk might be more pleasant for you at this stage of your recovery, that can change as your body slowly kills microbes, and your gut flora changes. The milk microbiota also changes from cow-herd to cow-herd, even if the bottler is the same. So you need to be continually looking for shifts in dietary tolerance as you recover.

..Trevor..

NickBowler
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 Posted: Sat Aug 18th, 2012 03:23

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Front cover of the economist magazine:

http://www.economist.com/node/21560523



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Sat Aug 18th, 2012 04:55

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"Though less reliably so than the genes in egg and sperm, microbiomes, too, can be inherited. Many bugs are picked up directly from the mother at birth. Others arrive shortly afterwards from the immediate environment. It is possible, therefore, that apparently genetic diseases whose causative genes cannot be located really are heritable, but that the genes which cause them are bacterial"

Nice. We are not totally alone in the wilderness. Somebody else realizes the importance of the microbiome :) Now we can just hope that the author(s) of this article stumble across our papers and videos :) :)

 

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 Posted: Sun Aug 19th, 2012 01:44

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This quote points to them asking the right questions:

Again, the details are obscure, but in each case some component of the microbiome seems to be confusing the immune system, to the detriment of body cells elsewhere.



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scooker48
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 Posted: Sun Aug 19th, 2012 07:12

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Dr. Marshall,

Will the ARF contact the authors of this story in The Economist?

Sherry



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Sun Aug 19th, 2012 10:24

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Sherry, I am much too busy working on other paperwork right now. Feel free to write to them and let them know about what we have been doing. The Saint Petersburg presentation brings together many of their points, I think, as do our last paper and book chapter.

It is probably tough for The Economist to accept that any answers could come from left field, I suspect. They are looking for answers from the usual group of 'prominent researchers'. :)
 

scooker48
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 Posted: Tue Aug 21st, 2012 08:20

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I wrote "The Economist".  One never knows if it has any effect or not; but we've come a long way since I started reading http://www.sarcinfo.com in January 2005.

Think positively.

Sherry



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healingjason
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 Posted: Mon Aug 27th, 2012 16:40

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Here in Australia, a documentary on autism and gut bugs has just been aired – see http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2012/08/23/3574441.htm. This North American (Canadian I think) program was posted on this thread or perhaps the Autism thread some time back.

This program packed a punch for me.

In particular, the experience of one of the children (now 19) regressing badly after multiple abxs were given for an ear infection and the sudden onset of ASD and gut problems. As I posted on the Autism thread in the early days, Jason as an infant had not very many courses of abxs for an ear infection but enough to develop antibiotic-induced diarrhoea and then, so it seemed, catatonic autism.

We tried the vancomycin therapy followed by probiotics (through a Melbourne gastroenterologist well before the MP) but we did not get the positive results that caused me to go after this therapy in the first place. I also briefly considered stool infusions to correct gut flora as this had been done on an ASD child in Sydney by a gastroenterologist there and this had helped with behaviour.

I have of course raised some of this on the MP site and Trevor kindly responded. I think his view is that the abxs for the ear infection that may have damaged Jason’s gut flora as an infant was just a straw that broke the camel’s back. I think he feels Jason was well primed for a fall as he had likely acquired a toxic microbiota pre-birth and thereafter (vaccines, L-forms encouraged from penicillin administration and vitamin D-fortified formula) before the abxs just prior to his regression were given which tipped him over the edge.

If Trevor is monitoring this, I would appreciate any correction to this interpretation if it is needed.

The researchers looking into gut bugs and ASD seem to be suggesting that it is damned difficult to destroy gut pathogens (such as spore forming clostridia) but their effects can be limited by ingesting probiotics or starving them of nutrients by dietary changes (eg less carbohydrate and meat that it is not the product of antibiotic-laced stock feed). Also, stool infusions seem to be contemplated as a means of replacing pathogenic flora with a healthy flora that will not produce metabolites that affect the brain or switch on the wrong genes. This is a pretty crude summary I know.

One factor of interest to me is that propionic acid – a product of gut bacteria and ingested as a food preservative (E280) – was found in excess in the urine of ASD kids. This acid was injected into mice which made them temporarily autistic until its effect dissipated and the mice reverted to being normally sociable. This suggests I go looking to ensure Jason does not ingest e280 or have his urine tested for this acid (if possible in Australia).

I imagine trying to correct gut bugs (or their effects), in the ways suggested in the program, would be of limited value unless this could somehow assist to correct VDR function and the restoration of this is what is fundamentally needed to recover from ASD. I imagine the MP and the MP alone is the most likely way to restore the VDR and immune function anywhere and everywhere in the body and thereby heal affected organs, both brain and gut in the case of ASD.

I would be interested if Trevor would care to comment on whether these gut therapies could complement the MP.

John

Last edited on Mon Aug 27th, 2012 23:21 by healingjason



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 Posted: Tue Aug 28th, 2012 07:01

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he had likely acquired a toxic microbiota pre-birth and thereafter (vaccines, L-forms encouraged from penicillin administration and vitamin D-fortified formula) before the abxs just prior to his regression were given which tipped him over the edge
Not "before birth." The microbiota before birth may well have been non-toxic, but the contribution of childhood infections and vaccine microbes may have allowed it to become so at a very young age. Children accrete microbes very rapidly in the first few months of life, through food, water and contact.

Use of the incorrect antibiotics (like penicillin) may well have helped the "bad bugs" overpower the "less bad bugs."

Our members have tried many variations of probiotics, over the years, and although they may have led to short term palliation, that therapy did not affect their long-term recovery.

Similarly, stool "transplants" provide short-term benefits. By the time somebody is chronically ill the microbes have long ago migrated out of the GI tract.

I am sure that E280 is one of just thousands of metabolites dysregulated by the microbes. Remember the CFS and Lyme Proteome study?

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0017287

Here is what they found:



Those are awfully big numbers, by comparison with one (E280), the one which has already been studied. It will take a lot of work to even begin to study the plethora of metabolites which are causal for each disease symptom



healingjason
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 Posted: Tue Aug 28th, 2012 17:17

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Dr Trevor Marshall wrote:

Not "before birth." The microbiota before birth may well have been non-toxic, but the contribution of childhood infections and vaccine microbes may have allowed it to become so at a very young age. Children accrete microbes very rapidly in the first few months of life, through food, water and contact.

Trevor

I was wondering if you have moved away somewhat from a previous view where you commented on the Autism thread that a pathogenic microbiota was present at birth as follows -

 Posted: Fri Nov 7th, 2008 16:22

An interesting new study which shows that Autism is present from birth (We have suspected all along that a lot of the metagenomic microbiota is passed down the maternal line).

"Strange play in infancy may point to autism"

http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSTRE4A58ZL20081106
 
Do you now feel post-birth exposure to pathogens is more important for the development of autism than a maternal inheritance?

Perhaps it is the case that some ASDs develop very early on - reflecting an extreme pathogenicity of the infant's microbiota - while the effects of a bad (though less toxic) microbiota show up in other ASDs later on? As to a later onset, severe cases of regressive ASD (like my Jason) seem to happen at age 2-3 years while higher functioning Asberger sufferers and the like take after 4 years to be diagnosed or are not diagnosed until adulthood, if at all.

Further to the idea that the severity of infection correlates with the severity of the ASD, I think a number of studies have found infection markers working this way. Prof Tim Roberts who tested my Jason as an infant for a urinary Hydroxyproline metabolite (believing it was reflecting a chronic infection) found this metabolite was higher in more severe ASD cases (including Jason) than for Asbergers or ADHD sufferers.

John

Last edited on Tue Aug 28th, 2012 17:25 by healingjason



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 Posted: Tue Aug 28th, 2012 17:28

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Do you now feel post-birth exposure to pathogens is more important for the development of autism than a maternal inheritance

Both are important, otherwise identical twins would both have identical ASD / ADHD :)
 

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 Posted: Tue Sep 18th, 2012 13:15

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http://www.nature.com/ni/journal/v13/n10/full/ni.2403.html


'Housing Ltbr−/− mice with their obese siblings rescued weight gain in Ltbr−/− mice, demonstrating the communicability of the obese phenotype.'



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 Posted: Sat Oct 20th, 2012 02:13

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http://www.nutraingredients-usa.com/Research/Immune-support-in-the-omics-age-Moving-away-from-old-ideas-of-nutrition-and-immunity/



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pgeek
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 Posted: Sat Oct 20th, 2012 04:26

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Possibly die to differences in carbohydrate consumption (specifically HCFS here):

http://www.clinicalepigeneticsjournal.com/content/4/1/6



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 Posted: Sat Oct 20th, 2012 07:48

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"Clinical Epigenetics Journal"?

all I see there is a whole lot of gobbeldy-gook. Nobody there seems to understand DNA Methylation. This journal is unreliable, from a Biology point of view.


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