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The Marshall Protocol Study Site > PROF. MARSHALL'S PERSPECTIVE > Prof. Marshall's Perspective > What would a world without disease actually look like?


What would a world without disease actually look like?
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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Sat Jul 14th, 2012 19:12

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A very interesting paper has just been released, detailing certain autistic tendencies which seem to have combined to enhance the abilities of Child Prodigies. There is an explanatory blog at:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/beautiful-minds/201207/are-prodigies-autistic

while the actual paper can be found here:

http://scottbarrykaufman.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Ruthsatz-Urbach-2012.pdf

The totality of all Interactome events associated with the microbiome has interested me for some time. I see no difference between the microbes causing selective and cumulative dysfunction of various cognitive and psychological abilities and the manner in which they cause selective and cumulative systemic (organ) dysfunction.

Indeed, I would assess that I myself have lost much of my 'drive' as I recovered my health, but that simultaneously, qualities which are important in management, and interaction with others, have  become enhanced.

So what do you think? In a microbiome-free world (if we could create that) - what would human-kind look like?

Trevor

Here is the part of the article which most caught my attention:
Ruthsatz found that both the first-degree families of individuals with autism and the first-degree families of prodigies in her sample displayed three out of five common traits of autism: impaired social skills, impaired ability to switch attention, and heightened attention to detail. This intrigued her, so she decided to look for autism in her current sample of prodigies.

Lo and behold, while about one in every 88 children in the United States is diagnosed with autism,four out of the eight prodigies in the current study had family members who either had an autism diagnosis or had a first- or second-degree relative with an autism diagnosis. Additionally, three of the prodigies had already been diagnosed with autism, and as a group they showed higher levels of autistic traits compared with a control group consisting of people weren't prodigies (but scored only slightly higher than those with high-functioning autism, or Asperger's
 

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 Posted: Sat Jul 14th, 2012 20:37

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Dr. Marshall,
I have seen people I have worked with, that have talented family members, be very average and almost slow, then all of a sudden, they seem to shine like they were coming out of a cloud. Then they showed an extra intelligence and depth of understanding that was quite shocking.

I personally would get very tired when concentrating for 20 minutes as in a meeting. Not convenient when a meeting lasted an hour. Then I found that the simple free form amino acid L-glutamine would solve that problem.

So, I am not sure what to say. I wonder, however, if the abilities shown by prodigies were biochemical perhaps metabolic pathways that were freed form micro biome interferences or were not encumbered by a micro biome, rather than the micro biome enhancing their abilities.

Perhaps their micro biomes were causing their other abilities to suffer and their savant characteristics were what was showing through the micro biome clouds?

Best regards,
Mike

Last edited on Sat Jul 14th, 2012 20:38 by mvanwink5



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 Posted: Sat Jul 14th, 2012 22:48

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Nice to see research per hi/low, and working memory in families with autism (once described as childhood onset schizophrenia) of some flavor lurking somewhere close.

Me and mine and a lot of everyone else. First two children, female, spoke full sentences, quite fluid and rational at 18 months. No terrible twos, they just talked through issues. Ability to read at early age (weaned to books because that was craved more than food).

My brothers considered genius in science, father/sister/me presented early with atypical visual recall/expression. My sister's sons all autism spectrum/add.

So, yes, study results seem a tad believable, eh?

______

Enjoyed Amy's description of VDR in women.

Working working memory is interesting to muse. Say, if a message needed to last for centuries, then power of stories to encode in human minds and span generations upon generations (a whole lot of minds/bodies both +/- by phyla onboard, high IQ or not)...

Genesis 2:6, (slightly skewed?):
"And when the female comprehended/saw that the phyla/tree was good for wisdom/insight/advancement, and that it was desirable, she ingested/assimilated/touched/absorbed [it]..."

Course, the problem of demise is a nasty side effect.

Game on.
_________

So, yes, study results seem a tad interesting.

Enjoyed the article. Thank you.--Janet



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 Posted: Sun Jul 15th, 2012 00:04

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An interesting side note. The cellist Jacqueline du Pré featured at the end of the article was diagnosed with MS at the age of 28 and later died from deteriorating health at 45.

Makes one wonder.

Last edited on Sun Jul 15th, 2012 00:11 by davidmac



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 Posted: Sun Jul 15th, 2012 08:37

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I was a 1-on-1 ed. Tech. assigned to an autistic boy for 5 years as he went from 8th grade through his senior year. During his freshman year things began to change. He had been somewhat isolated in main stream classes where most of the kids ignored him and he had no close friends. Halfway through freshman year he was moved to a life skills class with kids more like him. It was amazing to watch him begin to develop friendships. As he became more social he lost other skills such as math. He used to have basic math skills and could make change. By the time he graduated his skills had diminished to where he couldn't safely handle money to shop independently. I have to say he was definately happier with more friends and less math.
Pam



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 Posted: Sun Jul 15th, 2012 13:41

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More friends and less math sounds good to me too!

Deb



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 Posted: Mon Jul 16th, 2012 14:17

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you bring it all back, Deb

My first hubbie, a mathematician, was somehow elected as student representative at university, then
became not just a hermit, but killed off all my friendships over twenty years until the only contacts I had were a Nun and a one legged woman who shared my interest in geology.

I was becoming too disabled myself from CFS, etc. to fight back or move out.
He died in his fifties from multiple heart attacks.



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 Posted: Mon Jul 16th, 2012 19:59

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When I was a baby, my first words were full sentences. My mother taught me how to read in 2 weeks, at the age of 4, and by kindergarten I was reading multi-chapter books. (This was before the age of educational TV, early readers, and all the self-teaching resources that kids today have.) I read all of the books in the children’s section of the library by the age of 10. When I was in third grade, I scored in the top 1% of the top 1% on Iowa Tests of Basic Skills. (That is not a typo.) At the age of 11, one of my teachers put me through a battery of tests, and according to the tests I was able to do college level work, but the school refused to pay for it. Shortly after I graduated from high school, I took an I.Q. test that measured my I.Q. at 165, and I’ve since taken a number of I.Q. tests that have measured my I.Q. between 165 and 175. I’ve had a photographic memory for most of my life. I’ve been an exceptional artist since I was a young child, had perfect pitch and could play back a song on the piano that I’d only heard once, a week prior, with no practice. I can go on, but the point is that I think I probably qualify as a child prodigy, but my parents were incapable of meeting my needs, and the schools that I attended refused to. By the time I hit high school I had developed major chronic health problems that interfered with my schoolwork, and derailed my future.

When my daughter was born, she began talking at two months of age. She was crawling by 5 months, and when she was a year old she had the vocabulary of a typical three to four year old. In kindergarten, she tested as having an I.Q. of 150. All of her developmental milestones were months or years earlier than her same age peers in our area.

My son has an I.Q. of 130, but has demonstrated savant abilities in math. (And in some other areas.) He got the highest math scores that they’d ever seen in the college that he attended, and was their top math student.

Among my relatives, we have a lot of extremely high I.Q. individuals, including a great uncle of my mother’s that was one of the physicists that served on the Manhattan Project during World War II. . But there are also a lot of relatives in my family that I’m convinced fall in the Autistic Spectrum. There’s no severe Autism, but definitely a lot of Aspergers, ADHD, and other developmental disorders. My mother is Aspergers, my maternal grandfather was Aspergers, my brother is Aspergers, my son is Aspergers, and my granddaughter is Aspergers. I also suspect that two of my sister’s children are Aspergers. Interestingly enough, my mother’s great uncle, the genius physicist, also seemed to demonstrate some strongly Aspergers characteristics.

I don’t think I have a single relative that doesn’t display symptoms of some sort of neurological issue. There’s Aspergers and ADHD, but there’s also Central Auditory Processing Disorder, Sensory Integration Dysfunction, learning disorders, epilepsy, Schizophrenia, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, Depression and Anxiety disorders, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, Panic Attack Disorder, Phobias, Addictive problems, Neurological autoimmune disorders, including an inherited form of ALS (that I’ve had some symptoms of) and Multiple Sclerosis, Alzheimer’s (in a lot of the female relatives on my mother’s side of the family), Parkinson’s, and a form of Dementia that has recently been connected to family members of people with ALS.

And certainly, I think I’ve had major Th-1 related issues my whole life. I don’t think my gifts could be ascribed to a LACK of Th-1 pathogens by any means.

I think that prodigies are a lot more common than people realize, but that many of us have parents like mine, that are incapable of providing adequate facilitation of their needs, or attend schools where they don’t have sufficient provisions to meet the needs of gifted students. A lot of highly gifted kids learn to hide their gifts, to avoid being bullied or drawing attention to themselves, especially among gifted girls. Schools can be a brutal place for a gifted child, because anyone who is different becomes a target for cruelty.

My own perspective of giftedness is that most people display some areas of giftedness, but there seems to be something that inhibits them from being able to integrate it as completely as someone who shows exceptional ability. I’ve worked with a lot of kids from a wide variety of abilities, from a lot of special needs children, to some profoundly gifted children. And I have yet to see a single child that doesn’t display some sort of particular gift. I also have not seen a single “gifted” child that doesn’t also display some sort of neurological or physiological problem that can be connected to the skewed neurochemistry that enables their gift. And I’m convinced that Th-1 pathogens are partly to blame.

But I also think that how children are parented and educated plays a significant role in this, especially where there is a lack of opportunities for neurological integration, or where education focuses primarily on academics, instead of taking a more holistic approach. I think we’d see a lot more gifted children if this changed.

And one other thing, the prevalence of Autistic Spectrum Disorders has snowballed in recent years. So have the number of children displaying giftedness.



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 Posted: Tue Jul 17th, 2012 03:20

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Linda J wrotSchools can be a brutal place for a gifted child, because anyone who is different becomes a target for cruelty.
Not least from the teaching staff, in my experience at least, and you raise an interesting point since a child who is naturally 'different' and who goes through a prolonged stressful experience during formative years can be left permanently scarred.  Such diagnoses as ASD, ADD, ADHD, PDD-NOS are very non specific, and while we focus on th1 here it is important to bear in mind there could be other factors at work.

One of the schools I went to was the original inspiration for this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn5idKWC3g0

Its modus operandi was to hand select intelligent boys and then very forcefully try to turn them into identical versions of the model schoolboy, and it often went disastrously wrong with the most gifted.  That was in the days before many of the higher functioning learning disabilities were defined, and many of those who might have met the modern criteria had nothing medically wrong with them.



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 Posted: Tue Jul 17th, 2012 10:54

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Intelligence caused by parasite or symbiont?  I read this in a sci-fi novel many years back, and didn't think it terribly likely.   I think Star Trek did something along those lines once, but can't pinpoint it.  Futurama turned it into farce recently (Season 3, episode 4, Parasites Lost).

This was not one of the story lines I could see myself in, but it is quite a funny feeling to find myself this deep into any of the old science fiction stories that I read so long ago.



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 Posted: Tue Jul 17th, 2012 19:18

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I was classified as "AG" (academically gifted) in primary school for some reason (I could never figure it out because when we would meet in our groups to do special puzzles and figure out problems, I was frequently the last one to "get it" or often, I didn't). However, there were a few times when when I would, and those times, for some reason it seemed easy. I still have occasional periods of intense brain activity (seem to last from a few weeks to a month) where I am a sponge for information and can focus like a laser on a problem - however it is always to the detrement of the cleanliness and organization of my living quarters, and would be to the detrement of my social life if I had much of one (this has recently begun to change). I also remember making straight A's without trying until around 3rd grade when things got harder for some reason (I don't know if this was from an increase in the work load or because my microbiome crossed some threshold). I remember in 4th grade periods of feeling what I have come to know as "brain fog," and feeling detached from what was going on around me in the classroom and on the playground (very much in my own head). I was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at the end of 5th grade. By the time I was in 10th grade, I realized that I definitely could not keep up with my classmates in Algebra 2. I did not have the "working memory" to hold information long enough in my head (this is the first time I remember realizing and noticing this deficit in myself).

I never really "fit in" socially - it always seemed too hard to master that game (and the consequences of not playing it correctly were very detrimental) - so I just decided not to play (for the most part). I did have one very good friend who was a social star (he accepted and liked everyone just as they were - this is why I especially liked him - I never really felt accepted or included by others), and he was my pass to social events and the like, but I was never very successful when I would try to "fit in" on my own.

I began working full time with adolescents with severe autism in 2002. The job and experience was traumatic for me (violent outbursts, tantrums, etc), but a part of me fed on the challenge of it all. After a while I started to notice some autistic traits in myself that had always been there, but which I had never viewed through the lens of developmental disability (OCD symptoms too). My problem staying focused on anything without intense stimulus continued to get worse, and my short-term memory continued to wane, especially when my blood sugar was normal (high blood sugar always improved my short-term and working memory probably at least 3 or 4 times my capacity from normal blood sugar). OCD tendencies would wax and wane, but progressively also got worse to the point of impeding daily function. Around 2006, my short-term and working memory problems were starting to scare me and were also impeding my daily function (hard to say how much was anxiety / ADD preventing me from accessing my short-term memory and how much was actual short term memory loss). Often, I could not formulate a plan in my head of how to do something that I wanted to do (I could not retain the steps necessary to complete a task in my memory in order to complete the task). As soon as I would start to take action to complete the first step, the rest of the steps would vanish from my memory. I also had a very difficult time making decisions because I could not think through the logical consequences of my decisions. This also made me very impulsive at times.

After being on the MP for 4 years, 9 months, my OCD tendencies are not present in my day-to-day life anymore and do not affect my ability to function (they are very occasional occurrences). My short-term memory problems have improved drastically, along with my anxiety. My ADD is much improved, but waxes and wanes, seemingly with immunopathology. I still struggle with working memory sometimes (see the article from psychology today for the difference from short-term memory) when my blood sugar is normal (high blood sugar always improves it), but overall it may be improving somewhat. I have recently started to be more social than I have probably ever been before, and am more confident in social environments / situations.

So, to answer the question of what do I think about a microbiome-free world, I think people would be more well-rounded. I think there would be less differences among individuals, but broader individual functionality. I do think it would be a lot different world, and I wonder if we would have some of the technological advances we have today without the microbiome influencing the human brain. However, I wonder if, as science progresses (if individuals' microbiomes can be accurately-enough assessed over one's entire lifetime), if "positive" microbial communities will be identified which broadly bring about the traits we want without those we do not want (bad health, etc.), which we could somehow incorporate into our bodies; or if the positive traits from certain microbiomes are inherently tied to negative health effects, or are more dependent on the genome-microbiome interaction and inherently tied to one's individual genome (maybe these interactions could be predicted?).

I too have lost some of my "drive" as my health has recovered. However, being able to be more social is much more valuable to me (and it seems more valuable to others as well) than having an obsessive drive to explore knowledge on a particular subject.

Last edited on Tue Jul 17th, 2012 19:22 by findinganswers



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 Posted: Wed Jul 18th, 2012 09:00

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I have
always wondered if there can be a good disease, that could make person a superhuman. Some sort of bacterial symbiosis. For example bacteria that increase brain serotonin and enhance creativity or memory .



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 Posted: Wed Jul 18th, 2012 09:25

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Like others speaking here, I was ill-socialized in youth, always needing a clue bat in any social situation.  Luckily, I got into a gifted program early, so I had the compensation of high SAT scores (great math, not so great verbal).

I think you will find such a correlation much higher here in the MP crowd, than in the general TH1 population, which will lead to surprising difficulty in getting the MP into the mainstream.

Lots of my family and in-laws have TH1 troubles, but most are better socialized.  I think that being ill-socialized has more to do with being able to ignore the social clues that the MP is a whacko thing to do.  My wife, who has provided what social skills I now have, had a much harder time ignoring folks who think the MP is too wierd.

So, if (big if) we are the stubborn, ill-socialized who decided to ignore the doctors and do the MP, we might have to wait until we all get sane enough to really explain this.   The ill-socialized might be those able to ignore authority when it appears wrong, but the rest of the population have lots of experience ignoring the ill-socialized nutters among them.

A bit of a catch-22, I think.  But it also suggests that Dr Marshalls approach of trying to get to the more open-minded of the scientists first is the way to go.  The general population might get scared and sic the politicians on us if we push the issue on them.

Last edited on Wed Jul 18th, 2012 09:55 by Chris



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 Posted: Wed Jul 18th, 2012 09:40

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Chris I love your description of needing a clue bat! I often feel the same way. I'm going to mention it to my husband when talking about myself, he is so much more social than me! Or it just seems to come more naturally.

Deb



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 Posted: Wed Jul 18th, 2012 10:04

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The correlation between MP-ers and 'giftedness' (often with varying degrees of attendant social awkwardness) is very interesting indeed.

Outsiders see us as a bolshie bunch!  :shock:



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 Posted: Wed Jul 18th, 2012 16:31

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Very interesting Chris.  I think you're right on target.

I have also become less "driven" in the past year.  Geeky data-maintenance tasks at work, which continue to need to be done, no longer excite me in the way they used to.  I still take satisfaction in getting them done, because the usefulness of the data depends on it being updated dependably and correctly.  But I am much more aware of the tediousness of the work while I do it, and I am much quicker to decide to take a break from it every hour or so, where in the past I might go for three hours at a stretch without looking up unless interrupted by others.

I have long believed that most people are much, much brighter and more gifted than their actual performance suggests.  I used to think that what depressed this enormous potential was emotional hurts that messed up their memory-retrieval process.  Now I think of it more in terms of Th1 infection.  I do think that in a world without disease people would be better-rounded and also more creative, possibly more productive in a healthy way.



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 Posted: Thu Jul 19th, 2012 07:58

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In my case, the lack of excitement over anything is IP.  It was also this way as a TH1 symptom pre-MP, it just got exaggerated while on the MP.

So, may I suggest that all of this correlation of lack of drive after improvement on the MP overlooks the fact that everyone so far reporting in this thread is also STILL on olmesartan, and the olmesartan may be the source of the lack of drive, or maybe that the last IP to clear, maybe after 15 or 20 years on the MP, is lack of drive.  We need to wait longer to come to any such conclusion as is being suggested in this thread.

Cynthia



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 Posted: Thu Jul 19th, 2012 09:16

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Hmm, can we make a distinction between 'lack of excitement' and 'lack of drive', please?

'Lack of excitement' is something I do see as IP - usually from excessive fatigue, pain, or brain hi-jinks, including bi-polar tendencies. However, being on the MP/taking olmesartan does not preclude one from becoming excited. (Indeed, each new discovery about the microbiome excites me quite a bit.) We are living in fascinating times and there are lots of things that can excite us on any given day.

'Lack of drive' as related to our collective experiences, I see as something different.  It isn't that we've lost motivation altogether; it's that we've lost (or are losing) that OCD tendency to focus on one thing to the exclusion of all else. The autistic/Asperger's sufferers often are prodigies, precisely because of their abilities to focus on what interests them while disregarding all else (often including people - hence the social difficulties).

It's a balancing act.  We need those people who are 'driven' to advance science and technology, but we also need others, perhaps less driven, to analyze, synthesize, and disseminate these discoveries.

Question for you Dr. Marshall:  Although you claim to feel less 'driven' now, do you feel less productive overall?  (I'm betting the answer is 'no' and that you feel more productive than ever and in a more multi-faceted way.)  :)



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 Posted: Thu Jul 19th, 2012 16:33

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wrotek wrote: I have
always wondered if there can be a good disease, that could make person a superhuman. Some sort of bacterial symbiosis. For example bacteria that increase brain serotonin and enhance creativity or memory .

wrotec, I think it's a knight's move

bacteria cause OCD which distorts personality so increased activity ranges
from all day cleaning a clean house (possibly doing more to prevent mental illness than most doctors do)
to
all decade researching 24/7 and driving their colleagues crazy also but adding to human knowledge
(and thousands of completely useless quirks in between)
a form of creativity >> possibly enabling other forms :?


bacteria may also, how would I know, contribute
in a small way to book quality paper
and in a large way for sure
to concentrating mineral ore some of said minerals being used to enable computers etc
and thus this discussion
>> memory writ large :D




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 Posted: Fri Jul 20th, 2012 07:57

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Paisleykilt wrote:

'Lack of drive' as related to our collective experiences, I see as something different.  It isn't that we've lost motivation altogether; it's that we've lost (or are losing) that OCD tendency to focus on one thing to the exclusion of all else. The autistic/Asperger's sufferers often are prodigies, precisely because of their abilities to focus on what interests them while disregarding all else (often including people - hence the social difficulties).


Exactly. The drive I have lost was very rarely productive, especially when combined with all the symptoms of anxiety, OCD, short-term memory problems, and lack of social interaction. It was an unhealthy, obsessive drive to explore things just for knowledge and exploration, without connection to a larger purpose or goal, creating little value for myself or anyone else.



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