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The Obesity Era
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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Thu Aug 22nd, 2013 02:59

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I wanted to pass on a link to an excellent essay on the complexity of obesity -- a topic which Society has precipitately proclaimed as "self-inflicted"

http://www.aeonmagazine.com/being-human/david-berreby-obesity-era/

In particular, note this section (we should chase down some of these studies, IMO):
There is also the possibility that obesity could quite literally be contagious. A virus called Ad-36, known for causing eye and respiratory infections in people, also has the curious property of causing weight gain in chickens, rats, mice and monkeys. Of course, it would be unethical to test for this effect on humans, but it is now known that antibodies to the virus are found in a much higher percentage of obese people than in people of normal weight. A research review by Tomohide Yamada and colleagues at the University of Tokyo in Japan, published last year in the journal PLoS One, found that people who had been infected with Ad-36 had significantly higher BMI than those who hadn’t.

As with viruses, so with bacteria. Experiments by Lee Kaplan and colleagues at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston earlier this year found that bacteria from mice that have lost weight will, when placed in other mice, apparently cause those mice to lose weight, too. And a study in humans by Ruchi Mathur and colleagues at the Cedars-Sinai Medical Center in Los Angeles, published in the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism earlier this year, found that those who were overweight were more likely than others to have elevated populations of a gut microorganisms called Methanobrevibacter smithii. The researchers speculated that these organisms might in fact be especially good at digesting food, yielding up more nutrients and thus contributing to weight gain.

The researcher who first posited a viral connection in 1992 — he had noticed that the chickens in India that were dead of an adenovirus infection were plump instead of gaunt — was Nikhil Dhurandhar, now a professor at the Pennington Biomedical Research Centre in Louisiana. He has proposed a catchy term for the spread of excess weight via bugs and viruses: ‘infectobesity’.
..Trevor..

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 Posted: Thu Aug 22nd, 2013 07:27

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Once again, the answer is, it's complicated. Stop trying to make simplistic solutions, like fat shaming.



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wrotek
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 Posted: Thu Aug 22nd, 2013 13:17

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I was wondering if virus or bacteria can increase appetite ?


Last edited on Thu Aug 22nd, 2013 13:21 by wrotek



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Limburg
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 Posted: Thu Aug 22nd, 2013 13:27

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Ofcourse I don't know this Wrotek, but I bet they do...........



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wrotek
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 Posted: Thu Aug 22nd, 2013 13:36

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Yeah well the only way person can obtain mass is to eat more, or travel at very high speed - einstein relativity theory :)



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keithw
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 Posted: Thu Aug 22nd, 2013 15:20

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I hadn't considered bacteria as such as a cause of obesity but it does make sense since we know so little about the subject but the link to chicken rings a loud bell.

So how do you produce a 12 week old oven ready chook on only six weeks?
Everybody knows you don't feed steroids to fatten them up these days, must be magic...:shock::?

Then again there are steroids and there is ergosterol,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergosterol

How simple to add a mushroom product to chicken feed, not a steroid until ingested and then becomes our old nemesis D2 which everyone knows we need so much of...:X

Many people have chicken as a major component of diet reinforced with a "healthy" serve of potatoes full of starch so no wonder that people plump up.

So which is the real culprit? D2 supressing the immune system so bacteria can reproduce and metabolise all that potato starch into fat, or D2 the steroid simply being a steroid and causing weight gain same as medical steroids.

Either way you lose, we cut chicken from our diet along with potato and both Dale and I have lost over 10 kg without effort or other dietery mods so we are both comfortable without looking beyond the surface of the science but it does reinforce what we already know about the problem of steroids.

I am curious about one thing however, why is it unethical to test for a virus?
I would think it is the first thing you would do if a patient asked for help and you were suspicious.
Maybe they just don't want to know in this case.

:dude:





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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Thu Aug 22nd, 2013 15:47

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Why is it inethical to test for a virus?

I once sat through a discussion at a medical conference and listened to one of the foremost physicians in the world explain why it was inethical to tell the parents of a child that the sickness the child had was only likely to get worse. Better to keep hope alive, I guess. After listening to that debate I realized that not all human beings contemplate ethics in the same way....
 

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 Posted: Thu Aug 22nd, 2013 22:29

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Yeah well the only way person can obtain mass is to eat more, or travel at very high speed - einstein relativity theory :)


Okay, but what increases appetite, need for food, or compulsive eating?

Ofcourse there are many answers, but what's the source, can it be hungry bacteria/virusses?

I'd like a ride in a travelmachine, back to age 17 and then on the MP.......

:cool:



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wrotek
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 Posted: Fri Aug 23rd, 2013 00:45

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Limburg wrote: Yeah well the only way person can obtain mass is to eat more, or travel at very high speed - einstein relativity theory :)


Okay, but what increases appetite, need for food, or compulsive eating?

Ofcourse there are many answers, but what's the source, can it be hungry bacteria/virusses?

I'd like a ride in a travelmachine, back to age 17 and then on the MP.......

:cool:

In my case coffee (but not caffeine). Dr William Davis says that wheat also = gliadin protein that affects opiate receptors.

Last edited on Fri Aug 23rd, 2013 00:59 by wrotek



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GillyB
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 Posted: Fri Aug 23rd, 2013 05:46

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The article made the point that all calories are NOT equal.  For the same mass and caloric content, a body may process it differently and it's effect on the body may be different.  So, Wrotek, your comment about mass is what the article is refuting. 

One of the points was that bacteria might alter the way the calories are broken down, making more of the caloric mass available for uptake instead of elimination.

This article points out some factors that might explain why someone like myself, when I was younger, no matter how active I was or how I ate, I was always heavier than my BMI (body mass index) target.

Anyway, it seems to me to be yet another indication that the interactions between humans, the microbiome, and the external environment are super complicated, enough that I'll be long dead before anyone really gets a grip on how it works.



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wrotek
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 Posted: Fri Aug 23rd, 2013 05:56

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I understand that there may be imbalance in fat and muscles ratio, because of hormonal changes, but mass can have only one source - food.
U can be heavy and muscular, but also you can be heavy and obese (fat)

Last edited on Fri Aug 23rd, 2013 05:56 by wrotek



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 Posted: Fri Aug 23rd, 2013 07:13

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But how we process food is important and very different. I only have to look at my own family to see this.

My father has had an amazing appetite his whole life and was/is NOT very physically active and yet he is very slender.

My mother, on the other hand, ate about half what my father did (but same foods in same proportion), was much more physically active, yet carried more weight.

One sister was slender like my father, one was heavier like my mother, and I was as slim as a reed during my healthy years (despite snarfing more food than most men), then became overweight when I became ill.

Some of the weight is attributable to less activity and anti-seizure meds, but not all. My MP doc assures me that the extra weight will sort itself out when I have a fully functioning immune system again.

I think there is a strong case for 'infectobesity'!



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wrotek
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 Posted: Fri Aug 23rd, 2013 11:52

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On second thought, if eating less could always help, it would be very easy to lose weight. Unless people dont realize how much they are eating, snacks  etc...

Last edited on Fri Aug 23rd, 2013 11:52 by wrotek



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 Posted: Fri Aug 23rd, 2013 12:16

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Look, we all seem to have a set point, whether from bacteria, virus, age, genes.  If we eat less, we become more hungry.

(edit: Hmm, if we didn't have a set point, our weights would be all over the map.  We would be constantly having to watch how much we ate.)

We can either eat enough to no longer be hungry, and we will stay the same weight , or we can continue to eat less in spite of our hunger, and we will just stop burning as many calories, get sluggish, tired, and probably a few other low calorie burn symptoms, and in the end we still do not lose weight, even eating less.

Then we give up, and eat freely again, and because of the intense hunger that does not go away right away, we get fatter.  My own observation is that for every diet I ever went on except low carb, and there were many, I ended up heavier afterward.  The episodes seemed to make my set point higher.  I wonder if the microbiota some how get a boost during a  diet.  Maybe our immune systems suffer during a diet.

Low carb on the other hand seemed to by-pass the set point problem.

Cynthia

Last edited on Fri Aug 23rd, 2013 13:01 by Cynthia S



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 Posted: Fri Aug 23rd, 2013 15:23

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Good point, Cynthia.

There is a world of difference between eating until you are no longer hungry and eating until you are full.
It took me a while to tune down meal sizes as I always overcook and hate wastage but the answer is both simple and convenient.

Cook as normal, serve what you need and freeze the rest to have on toast when you can't be bothered cooking or are short of time.

We bought a chest freezer to store bulk meat but it has a healthy population of home cooked fast food as well now.

:dude:



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 Posted: Fri Aug 23rd, 2013 18:14

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wrotek wrote: ............... Unless people dont realize how much they are eating, snacks  etc...

If you are underweight, keep snacks where you watch TV

If you are overweight, do not take any food into your TV room

(if you do not have a TV you are probably streets ahead in the fitness stakes)



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 Posted: Sat Aug 24th, 2013 06:53

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Cynthia, I wonder if the concept of "set point"  is tied in with this new insight of how the body deals with different types of calories and external stressors.  I don't think I've ever ready anything about how set points work.  It seems like a way of describing a phenomena that medical researchers don't understand, so they put a "black box" around it, something goes in and something else comes out, but we don't know what goes on inside that box.

Dieting is an external stressor, and our bodies and their associated microbiota are going to react to them.

Keith, I laughed loud when I read about your leftover strategy, 'cause that's how we've been living for years!  I do a lot of cooking on the weekends, then live on the leftovers during the week to avoid the need to cook after work.  I have also put portions of things in the freezer (I've had the same chest freezer since 1985), but with a pair of large males in the house, stuff just doesn't last very long, especially if it involves meat.



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Sunset
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 Posted: Wed Oct 9th, 2013 15:17

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This is an interesting article. At least some people now are willing to see obesity as a multi-factorial disease. In the last few years I have come to view obesity as a form of malnutrition that results in poor metabolism that then leads to a poorly functioning body, and eventually turns into chronic disease.

I think most people these days, whether obese or not, are literally starving to death due to cellular and enzyme disruptors found in the environment and in the foods and water we drink. The quality of the food available today, and really for the past century for that matter, is at best lacking in good nutritional value (a lack of vitamins and quality forms of minerals) and at worst toxic to the body due to the use of GMO's and chemicals (pesticides, toxic forms of minerals used in fertilizers, etc.) which are inflicted on plants and animals raised for food all in the name of better crop yields.

IMHO, mainstream science researchers and medical practitioners will probably never have a real and meaningful treatment for either obese or malnourished individuals. And even if they could find a way to do this, I do not anticipate any real effort by any government officials to promote the type of complex and multifaceted approach needed to fix this chronic disease epidemic that we are facing today.

However, there are a few individuals who do see the connection between people who are suffering from chronic diseases like obesity and malnourishment. The research of Drs. Paul Eck and Lawrence Wilson, which involves healing mainly by supporting the body nutritionally, is a good case in point. I am not saying their approach is perfect or completely on target and correct, but at least the information they present is a multifaceted approach to supporting the body nutritionally to help thwart chronic disease.

Best regards,
Sunset



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 Posted: Wed Oct 9th, 2013 21:25

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Probably one of the biggest factors with TVs is they are full of ads telling you to eat snack foods and cooking shows describing how to cook sexy foreign meals cheaply, either way we are being pumped full of food info which stimulates the appetite and bingo, instant obesity!:X

My advice, either leave the TV off or watch a docco or comedy and leave the fridge well alone; "unfortunately"? I live with a woman and it's "honey, want half a crunchie" or "do we have any chips in the pantry"? so weight loss around here is slow indeed!

Ah well, at least cutting nightshades has allowed us both to drop 20 lbs each so it can be done but it would be easier without TV ads. maybe I should buy Foxtel and watch "how it's made" and learn how snickers are mass produced!:D

:dude:



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 Posted: Thu Oct 10th, 2013 05:19

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But Keith, if you watched "How it's Made" you could also learn how to build an accordion, or  perhaps some other modern mechanical marvel!



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