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L-forms, all you need to know, 1930-1951
 Moderated by: Prof Trevor Marshall Page:    1  2  3  Next Page Last Page  
 

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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Sun Jul 23rd, 2006 08:13

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Pubmed Central has catalogued a 1951 paper "Filterable Forms of Bacteria" by Emmy Klieneberger-Nobel, who is credited with the discovery of L-forms at the Lister Institute in the 1930's.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=440979

It is a fascinating description which I urge you all to read. Here are a few sentences which leapt out at me:

"The L-form .. is an entity of its own as different from bacteria as the tadpole from the frog"

"bacteria produce small granular elements which seem to fuse. This fusion is followed by the rapid development of the L-bodies"

"I am therefore of the opinion that the L cycle may be regarded as a process of regeneration in bacteria probably to a sexual process in higher organisms"

"It has been found that the L phase is resistant to penicillin, though the homologous bacterial phase is sensitive"

Enjoy...

Last edited on Thu Jun 7th, 2007 12:42 by Prof Trevor Marshall

Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Sun Jul 23rd, 2006 08:29

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Here is an article about this remarkable scientist
http://www.sgm.ac.uk/pubs/micro_today/pdf/080508.pdf

Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Sun Jul 23rd, 2006 08:56

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Here are some of the Dienes' papers (cited by Klieneberger-Nobel) which represent the earliest warning that Beta-lactam antibiotics, penicillins and cephalosporins (such as Rocephin) actually promote the formation of the persistent L-forms when they kill the more easily visible walled-bacteria

The Transformation of Typhoid Bacilli into L Forms under Various Conditions
http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=385825&blobtype=pdf

The Isolation of L Type Cultures from Bacteroides with the Aid of Penicillin and Their Reversion into the Usual Bacilli:
http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=518606&blobtype=pdf

Transformation of bacteria into L forms by amino acids:
http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=169421&blobtype=pdf

Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Sun Jul 23rd, 2006 09:35

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Here is an interesting paper by the same Harvard / Mass General Hospital group implicating Lithium, Calcium, Chromium and Mercuric salts as a pleomorphic factor for some of these L-form organisms:

"The Significance of Pleomorphism in Bacteroides Strains"
http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=373960&blobtype=pdf

Lee
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 Posted: Mon Jul 24th, 2006 06:08

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Just after my spider bite in the 80's an uninformed doc placed me on penicillin for over a year ....:shock:  I remember taking the huge tablets for at least 14 mths!  Then of course being thin and blonde with sheer bones I was on extra calcium and D for many years till I found the MP!!!  Lee



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Frans
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 Posted: Mon Jul 24th, 2006 10:53

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Trevor,

This is an extremely interesting kind of thread. Especially for the knowledge-hungry.

I hope/suggest you start this kind of thread explaining some roles of the nuclear receptors with regard to the immunesystem, lipid metabolism (I am gaining some weight...) and hormones. It would be great to understand what eg GCR and the PPAR's do. With that I mean eg if they make someone lose weight or gain it when an agonist activates it, if more fatcells are created or not. And how they act to kill the bacteria, etc.

It would be also extremely interesting to know (to me) how the D's (and PPAR's) affect NO-metabolism (via the receptors).

etc. etc. etc. I hope you understand what I mean.

This is great stuff about the L-forms, it underscores so much of what we have learned already.

Thank you for taking us all along on this fantastic journey through the body.

Sincerely, Frans



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Frans
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 Posted: Mon Jul 24th, 2006 11:13

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I just read the Nilsson paper abstract and thought it would be interesting what a search for Bacteria and macrophages would find.

Maybe this is interesting, but I am not sure I understand it all correctly: PMID: 16820745

If I understood wrong, just remove this post.

Sincerely, Frans



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Claudia
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 Posted: Mon Jul 24th, 2006 23:12

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Here is a curious thing I came across years ago when my son was about 3 years old. He was born with a predisposition toward "generalised anxiety" and I took him to a Homeopath to see if homeopathic medicine could help.

The Homeopathic doctor took one look at him and before asking anything else about my son's medical or family history, asked, "Is there a family history of Tuberculosis?" I was shocked and amazed because the answer was Yes!  His paternal grandfather caught tuberculosis during WWII and eventually died of cardio pulmonory disease, in spite of being "cured" by antibiotics after the war. The government granted my mother-in-law a war widow's pension on the basis of the husband's death being presumed related to lung damage from the TB.

I asked how he could tell, and he said, "There is a look about them. All children whose parents carry the tuberculosis history have this look about them; it is something in the shape of their head/face."

Because his father (Who was an MD) had contracted TB, my husband and siblings (and I presume their mother) were given BCG innoculations.

I have been watching the Chicago conference videos and note that L-forms can be  found in semen, so there is certainly a case for paternal transmission transmission of the disease even after being "cured" by pennicillin or whatever. Or the BCG could be the source of this phenomenon as noted by Homeopaths.

I got curious just now about the connection that homeopaths make regarding chronic disease being inheritable. They call the diseases miasms. Here is an edited quote from a homeopathics website:
The theory of miasms originates in Hahnemann's book The Chronic Diseases which was published in 1828... He declared that the theory was the result of 12 years of the most painstaking work on difficult cases of a chronic character combined with his own historical research into the diseases of man. The three miasms given in that work are held to be responsible for all disease of a chronic nature and to form the foundation or basis for all disease in general. This latter aspect was then to receive considerable amplification from Kent. Kent was also able to clearly identify those remedies that relate to each miasm. The word miasm means a cloud or fog in the being. The theory suggests that if 100% of all disease is miasmatic, then 85% is due to the primary and atavistic miasm Hahnemann called Psora. The remaining 15% of all disease he held to be either syphilitic or sycotic, being derived from suppressed Syphilis or suppressed Gonorrhoea. Hahnemann unlike Kent later attached no moral dimension whatsoever to the sexual nature of the two latter miasms. Kent of course, emphasised this a great deal. Which is hardly surprising in the somewhat Puritanical atmosphere of nineteenth century small town America.
Interesting, isn't it? I am not convinced about homeopathic cures, but their observations are worthy. That encounter puzzled me for years until I found the Marshall Protocol!



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scooker48
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 Posted: Wed Jul 26th, 2006 14:07

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I have almost finished reading this article, and it is both illuminating and confusing.  However, clear observations that these L Forms are often seen in the liver and spleen ring true, as well as the simple fact they are existant.

At the risk of sounding brain dead, which might be the case today, why don't  large doeses ofantibiotics kill these L forms?  Because they are somehow latent?  Why do we think we're killing them with the MP lifestyle and abx?  Because we trigger our own immune system?  But if one's immune system is compromised, why can't just the abx kill the bugs in a desease weakened person?

With humility, Sherry



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Wed Jul 26th, 2006 14:36

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Sorry, Folks, I have been real busy these last few days, and will remain so until the end of the month.

One of the problems when talking about the type 1 Nuclear Receptors is that we still know so little about them. But I will share new advances there, as they come to my attention.

BCG is well know to be associated with the onset of Sarcoidosis, many say it actually causes sarcoidosis. That is why its use fell into disrepute in the 1970's.

Your homeopath is incorrect in linking chronic disease solely to Tuberculosis. Still, it is surprising what you can see in faces. At our conferences it has been pretty obvious to me who is not on the MP and who is well along with their recovery. But there are a whole lot of cues - color - animation - muscle activity - which I observe, not just any single "look."

Sherry. We know so little about so many of the antibiotics in common use. We don't even really know how the immune system itself works. We still spend money on research into "autoimmunity." I am sure these issues will all be understood as time goes by, but right now our knowledge is still pretty sketchy.

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 Posted: Sun Jul 30th, 2006 04:29

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Trevor,

I was wondering why this paper has suddenly been published on pubmed.

Is there a reason that you know of?

What is even more interesting is if the papers from dr Virginia Livingston are still somewhere to be found. Maybe dr Cantwell has these? It would be in our interest, I think, to make sure these papers (in full) get scanned in somewhere and made available. Maybe on pubmed, maybe somewhere else (here?).

Sincerely, Frans



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Sun Jul 30th, 2006 07:22

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PubMed central is trying to scan all the old journals and get them into its database. You will note that you cannot search for text from this paper, as it is merely a photographic scan, but at least the image is catalogued, along with the title. I found it when I Google-searched for Emmy's papers using her name:)

Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Tue Aug 1st, 2006 18:46

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Sherry sent me links for a number of papers which had cited Emmy's paper. Here are several of them

"Characteristics of the filterable forms of Mycobacterium tuberculosis and their significance in pathology" (1984)
http://tinyurl.com/kcz3o

"Demonstration of the phenomena of microbial persistence and reversion with bacterial L-forms in human embryonic kidney cells." (1974)
http://tinyurl.com/f573f

"Proposed reproductive cycle for a relatively stable L-phase variant of Streptococcus faecalis."
http://tinyurl.com/jkumz

"Isolation and study of the morphological properties and immunogenicity of filterable forms of Mycobacterium tuberculosis"
http://tinyurl.com/jkxjj

And just to let you folks know that we are wasting our time:
"Cell wall-deficient bacteria as a cause of infections: a review of the clinical significance."(2005)
http://tinyurl.com/k8tos

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 Posted: Tue Aug 1st, 2006 20:23

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Dr Marshall,

It is amazing how long ago there were serious research on the L-forms. I found pg 81 of the "Filterable forms of Bacteria" most interesting. It mentions relapsing fever and also research on typhoid. I was wondering about my doctors explanation of Para-typhoid when I had it back in the 80's in Spain. He said it was a very small mutated form of Typhoid, more like a virus, and that the local population had adapted to it.He was seeing increasing numbers of tourist getting it. The local health department ,of course ,did not want to know and he was rather upset. I wonder how many people get tested for para-typhoid, at least I was postitive for it but never got a clear blood diagnosis on my Lyme. Is para-typhoid a known L form ? It probably means I have multiple L-forms. Right?

Thanks for all the great information and support. I am going to print that article for my GP to read. I take articles to him every time I go, maybe one of them will get his attention. Melinda



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 Posted: Tue Aug 1st, 2006 20:55

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Dr Trevor Marshall wrote: And just to let you folks know that we are wasting our time:
"Cell wall-deficient bacteria as a cause of infections: a review of the clinical significance."(2005)
http://tinyurl.com/k8tos

Yeah! I like it........haha

The last line on the review is golden.



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scooker48
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 Posted: Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 06:56

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Dr. Marshall,

If any of the papers which cite Emmy Klieneberger-Nobel's papers look of interest, let me know.  We can run a cite search on those papers.

Sherry



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D25, Total: 12 measured 11/3/15 Started MP=01/04/05 Diagnosis: Sarc 12/04; "cat scratch disease" or necrotizing graunulomas 10/88; Raynaud's (diagnosed 1980?)
Claudia
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 Posted: Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 11:30

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Well, I don't subscribe to PubMed, but I sure would like to know exactly how they came to their "conclusion" that CWD bacteria don't matter!!!

Can we have a synopsis of their "logic"?

Thanks.



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scooker48
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 Posted: Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 12:06

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Claudia,

THANK YOU for the question.  One does not need a subscription to "PubMed"--it is free to all (unless there is some restriction outside the country, but I doubt that).  Type in PubMed into Google and you're there.  Let me know if you have any trouble or questions using it.  There are many many ways to search but hopefully I can guide you into starting to use it.

Is your second question referring to the paper titled "Cell Wall deficient bacteria as a cause of infections: a review of the clinical significance"?  I do not have the full text of this article.  However, I can tell you from many years of searching DIALOG and DATASTAR one does not find everything on a subject by using only those sources.  About the best I can suggest is either request the paper from a local library, who will have to obtain it from a medical library, or put the exact title and use quotation marks into google.com.  In other words, type into Google "Cell wall-deficient bacteria as a cause of infections: a review" and out will drop access to the ABSTRACT.  You can send an email to authors asking to see the whole published paper or you can kindly inform them of the MP, take your choice.  LOL.

I trust this is helpful and Thanks again for your question.

Sherry



____________________
D25, Total: 12 measured 11/3/15 Started MP=01/04/05 Diagnosis: Sarc 12/04; "cat scratch disease" or necrotizing graunulomas 10/88; Raynaud's (diagnosed 1980?)
Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 12:15

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Claudia,
PubMed is part of the National Library of Medicine. They publish papers online in the databases called PubMed (abstracts only) and in PubMed Central (fulltext). These online databases are available to everybody. But they are just a library - you have to go to the original journals, or even to the authors, to get information about the studies, or their conclusions.

LeAnne
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 Posted: Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 15:29

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But the evidence is there. The studies have been done. It just does not make sense to me. Pride, money, and greed, not logic, seem to be the only sensible reason for their actions.

LeAnne

Last edited on Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 15:31 by LeAnne



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