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The Marshall Protocol Study Site > PROF. MARSHALL'S PERSPECTIVE > Prof. Marshall's Perspective > Rosemary and Sage - contain the immune suppressant - Carnosic Acid


Rosemary and Sage - contain the immune suppressant - Carnosic Acid
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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Sat Jan 27th, 2007 15:57

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We often catch flak for telling people to stop taking the supplements they have relied upon to get from day to day. The reason we do this is simple - the body cannot recover unless the number of variables is reduced so that the patient can relate symptom flares to the event which caused them.

Here is a picture of 1,25-D as it docks into the VDR, along with a superimposition of the diterpene 'Carnosic Acid', contained in Rosemary and Sage, as well as other herbs.


Carnosic Acid will displace 1,25-D (and Benicar) from the VDR in a concentration-dependent manner.
It is a total antagonist of the VDR. It will therefore suppress innate immunity.

The calculated affinity is high, at Ki = 54 nanomolar, about the same as the less effective ARBs and Statins. You only need tens of milligrams of it to mess things up...

--------------------
(Scientists who want to build this discovery into their own papers should cite:
Marshall TG, Lee RE, Marshall FE: Common angiotensin receptor blockers may directly modulate the immune system via VDR, PPAR and CCR2b. Theor Biol Med Model. 2006 Jan 10;3(1):1, together with the URL for this thread)

wrotek
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 Posted: Sat Jan 27th, 2007 17:56

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I wonder Dr Marshall, how do u find these substances. :)
Can You tell that chemical may have some affinity simply by looking at it ?
What if i would like to test if coffee ingredients are not bad for my VDR competence, maybe chlorogenic acid found
in higher quantities . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorogenic_acid



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Sat Jan 27th, 2007 21:31

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Oh, Wrotek, you most innocently ask for my inner secerets:) An old-school scientist would never tell you where his/her inspiration came from (LOL). As I say in my presentations, Pasteur revealed that scientific breakthroughs are 50% luck:):)

In this case, the University of Alberta has just released the "Human Metabolome Database," which they want to become analagous to the Human Genome database.
http://www.hmdb.ca/

If you plug in "dihydroxyvitamin" you will find cross-citations to papers mentioning these other metabolites. I modeled and looked at their 3D structures, looked at the cited papers, and fed the data down to my Linux server for verification...

ps: you might also notice that the "Vitamin D3" entry starts off "Vitamin D3 is a steroid hormone..."
http://www.hmdb.ca/scripts/show_card.cgi?METABOCARD=HMDB00876.txt

pps: Yes, with all the practice I have accumulated:) I can often see a likely VDR ligand when I 'look at it':)

bluesdoc
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 Posted: Sun Jan 28th, 2007 12:34

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So, would this also apply to carnosine itself?

jon



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Sat Feb 3rd, 2007 12:59

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Jon,
Here is the structure and formula of Carnosic acid
http://tinyurl.com/2ucdl2
and of carnosine
http://www.benbest.com/nutrceut/carnosine.html

They are different substances. I have not computed what carnosine might do.

Aunt Diana
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 Posted: Sat Feb 3rd, 2007 14:31

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I hope this doesn't mean I have to give up rosemary and sage....two of my favorite herbs. I always have some growing in my garden just for the smell alone.

I don't even think the MP could make me get that drastic.



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Sat Feb 3rd, 2007 15:32

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The smell, isn't going to hurt you, Aunt Diana. Eating those lovely flowers and leaves is a problem, however:)

Aunt Diana
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 Posted: Sat Feb 3rd, 2007 17:37

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OH Darn!!!



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Sat Feb 3rd, 2007 18:13

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Everything in moderation is usually OK. I guess our ancestors used some Sage, and probably Rosemary, and we still got here, someway or other...

Although, earlier today I was watching "Mad Margaret," as portrayed in Gilbert and Sullivan's "Ruddigore" and it sure looked as though Gilbert had seen Th1 sickness in Elizabethan England...

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 Posted: Sun Feb 4th, 2007 08:31

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OTC herbal supplements are touted to improve everything from hair loss to memory. Herbs seem harmless so they are tempting for folks to use. Note that Dr. Marshall said carnosic acid is contained in other herbs in addition to rosemay and sage.

The use of herbal supplements containing rosemary or sage would constitute a much higher intake than that of seasoning food with these herbs. 

Avoid ALL herbal supplements but continue to enjoy foods seasoned with herbs. :)

Aunt Diana
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 Posted: Sun Feb 4th, 2007 12:59

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Thank you Meg. That is very good news. One of my passions in life is cooking. I really wouldn't want to live without rosemary.



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govert
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 Posted: Thu Feb 8th, 2007 11:54

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I highly believe in Carnosic Acid. However there are purities between 5 and

60%. In the label they put only grs or the purity, but there should be

on the label the purity and the grams. As long the labelling of the

health food product is not correct, the consumer does not know what he

really is buying

tickbite
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 Posted: Thu Feb 8th, 2007 12:32

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I highly believe it suppresses innate immunity too :)



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jrfoutin
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 Posted: Thu Feb 8th, 2007 13:01

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Govert,
Welcome to the MP. This is a site where those with Th1 discuss issues related to molecular biology in relationship to the Vitamin D Receptor, at the heart of the innate immune function. Many are recovering from diseases that involve Cell Wall Deficient bacteria (or L form, for the Lister institute that first identified them) in chronic diseases like Lyme, ME/CFS, Sarcoidosis.

Carnosic Acid is a recent subtopic discussion thread, and the importance of the discovery may have been missed in your response. Do refer to the post above describing the negative action of the compound in its ability to suppress the immune system.

Those that post here do follow some simple requirements for board use. Please review:

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Please fill REQUIRED SIGNATURE LINE see Information to include Thank You...

On this site, we don't rush to find every known compound and package it into a sellable "supplement" product base, for yet another fad influx of buying by those who are the most vulnerable. The goal here is to follow the Marshall Protocol. You can read more about it here:

PHASE ONE MARSHALL PROTOCOL
How to start the Marshall Protocol. some have it printed to check regularly.
Combining other protocols with the MP is contraindicated

Checklist: basic links for MP

Dr. Marshall's AAEM presentation is online 

I hope you have an opportunity to benefit in a positive way from the information.--Janet 

We encourage you to start a thread of your own in the **General Discussion of the Marshall Protocol** thank you..



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CelticLadee
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 Posted: Thu Feb 8th, 2007 16:21

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Hmmmmm ... that is interesting. Makes me wonder about oregano. Can I share this with you here?

Before MP among many other things my naturopath had me taking high doses of oregano in supplement form to kill bacteria, yeast, etc.  I did 'herx' from it but at that time I thought that it was doing me good. sigh. :P

Before I began the MP I assure you I quit all these supplements.

You may find it interesting on the MP the past couple years I get a very queasy stomach after eating the herb oregano. I also get a headache. Therefore when I make recipes requiring it I just eliminate it.

Oddly soon basil followed suit. Now I don't use herbs when cooking or even garlic because they just don't agree with me anymore. I haven't used rosemary or sage the past couple of years either. I realize these small quantities would not affect everyone but I definitely have an intolerance to them.

Reading your post I get a clearer picture of how potent herbs can be for us. Thanks. CL :dude:



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bookdad
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 Posted: Mon Feb 12th, 2007 08:18

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CelticLadee,

I love to cook as well and traditionally use all these herbs in my cooking. I grow my own because I want just the herb and no pesticides etc. I always wondered why I feel bad after eating them. I experience the most herxing an hour or so after eating garlic. I grow several varietys and use different ones depending on the dish I am preparing. It appears that it doesn't matter which variety that I choose from a reaction standpoint. My herx from these include a slight headache, overall malase (like with the flu) and stomach problems. I will put them on the list of what to eat After the MP. :D



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 Posted: Mon Feb 12th, 2007 08:27

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Dr. Marshall, I wonder if tannic acid also has a similar affect as it is released by the muscles during exertion, and in various beverages. My thinking is that when one has TH1, one of the prevalent indicators is that exertion produces sx and results in not wanting to do anything. could this be due to tannic acid or is this a non-corollary?



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Joy
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 Posted: Fri Feb 16th, 2007 16:58

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Is this the same as L-Carnosine? (it sounds like it) I was hoping to use those CAN-C Carnosine drops on my uveitis damaged eye to help remove the cataract which is forming from the ongoing steroid use, so I don't have to have it done surgically (all after the MP, of course). Now, maybe that isn't such a good idea, in light of what you're saying?

Last edited on Fri Feb 16th, 2007 16:59 by Joy



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 Posted: Fri Feb 16th, 2007 20:55

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Jon asked, "So, would this also apply to carnosine itself?"

Here is Dr. Marshall's reply.

P.S. Do you have evidence this treatment would be effective in resolving a cataract and not cause any untoward effect?

Last edited on Fri Feb 16th, 2007 21:27 by Foundation Staff

wrotek
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 Posted: Thu Feb 22nd, 2007 07:54

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ROSEMARY and Parkinson's disease
Carnosol, a component of rosemary (Rosmarinus officinalis L.) protects nigral dopaminergic neuronal cells.

* Kim SJ,
* Kim JS,
* Cho HS,
* Lee HJ,
* Kim SY,
* Kim S,
* Lee SY,
* Chun HS.

Department of Biotechnology, Research Center for Proteineous Materials, Chosun University, Gwangju, Republic of Korea.

Carnosol, a major component of Rosmarinus officinalis, is a phenolic diterpene that has potent antioxidant and anti-inflammatory activities. In this study, we investigated the protective effects of carnosol on rotenone-induced neurotoxicity in cultured dopaminergic cells. Results showed that cell viability was significantly improved with carnosol through downregulation of caspase-3. Furthermore, carnosol significantly increased the tyrosine hydroxylase, Nurr1, and extracellular signal-regulated kinase 1/2. These results suggest that carnosol may have potential as a possible compound for the development of new agents to treat Parkinson's disease.

PMID: 17047462 [PubMed - in process]


It is nice to know the correct science, while other people are debating http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=052247

Last edited on Thu Feb 22nd, 2007 08:26 by wrotek



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