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Prof Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Sun Jan 28th, 2007 15:48 |
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Rico,
Yes, weak tea, black or green, where the bag is only steeped for less than a minute, would likely be best. Try to avoid the milk, I think. Personally, I like Trader Joes Jasmine Green Tea, dipping the teabag for about 20-30 seconds, sweetened with Splenda.
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Rico
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Posted: Sun Jan 28th, 2007 15:56 |
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| Her tea is steeped less than 1 minute and she adds unfortified soy milk (no D) - is 10 still too much, IYO?
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No diagnosis/some symptoms (more than I knew); wife with Sarc on MP; Olm 40mg q4-6h | 25D=22 (May 2014) | 25D=27 (Nov 2014)
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Knochen
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Posted: Sun Jan 28th, 2007 16:18 |
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Go ahead Trevor, tell us about chocolate. Let's just get it over with. I know Clorogenic acid is in there, but how much?
Giving up coffee may be one of the hardest things the MP has asked me to do, but if I gotta, I gotta. But my wife is going to be heatbroken when she finds she can't make her grandmother's Apple-coffee-eggplant casserole! 
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Reiter's Syndrome 25+ yrs, fatigue, joints, muscles, migraine, brainfog| 25D <4 ng/ml |Benicar May06|Ph1 June06|Ph 2 Sept06|Ph 3 Jan 07|NoIRs K-Cream Zinc Oxide cream - Always covered!
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Prof Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Sun Jan 28th, 2007 16:30 |
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Chocolate is fine.
A good cup of sugar-free drinking chocolate mixed with Splenda for sweetening will warm the heart without interfering with the immune system...
I personally prefer Droste brand Cocoa, "Importe des Pays-Bas," which I buy in bulk. It still costs about $7 a box, though Still, its good... I mix two parts of this with one part of non-fortified whole milk powder and three parts of splenda in a jar, which can then be spooned out into a cup of hot water
Walmart has Splenda in large bags at about half the supermarket price... their brand is "Altern"
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Posted: Sun Jan 28th, 2007 17:43 |
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[filelink]
A review of chlorogenic acid and genistein
We've been discussing two substances recently, chlorogenic acid which is a phenolic compound and genistein which is an isoflavone. Both act as antioxidents. Dr. Marshall has recently determined that both chlorogenic acid and genistein affect (modulate) the immune system if consumed in large enough quantities. This may may make it harder to judge progess of the MP.
Chlorogenic acid
The quanty of chlorogenic acid in most plants is miniscule. However, a few plants accumulate chlorogenic acids in quantities sufficient to have a physiological effect. The primary dietary source of chlorogenic acid is coffee; green coffee beans typically contain 6-7% of this component (range: 4-10%); roasted coffee beans contain somewhat less, as the roasting transforms chlorogenic acids into other molecules, which may still retain the same functions. Coffee that is not fresh (two weeks past roasting) is said to contain fewer antioxidants (chlorogenic acid). Apples, pears and eggplant contain small amounts of chlorogenic acid. It is somewhat neutralized by an enzyme in the skin of the fruit. Eating these foods in moderation is fine.
Decaf coffee
Dr. Vinson, researcher at the University of Pennsylvania, who has studied decaffeinated coffee said both caffeinated and decaffeinated coffee provides similar levels of antioxidants (chlorogenic acid).
Coffee substitute
An herbal coffee-like beverage is sold at this website:
http://www.teeccino.com/decaf.aspx
Cocoa
Cocoa contains chlorogenic acid but the amount is very small.
Genistein
The major source of genistein is soy products.
Green tea
Green tea contains some genistein but the amount seems to be very low. If you enjoy green tea, we suggest that you make it very weak by allowing the tea bag to steep for 30 seconds or less.
Black tea
The processing of black tea is reputed to remove most of the antioxidents (genistein) but this is disputed. Again, drink it weak.
Caffeine
Caffeine is not the problem with either tea or coffee.
Moderation is the key to consumption
Although these substances are not immunosuppressive, they modulate the immune system in unknown ways. The effect of chlorogenic acid and genistein on the immune system is dose dependent. Most foods that contain these substances may be eaten.
Soy products are the most worrisome and should be limited to a very small amount each day. If you consume these substances, they may affect your progress on the MP or make it more difficult for you to recognize immunopathology. If you are having problems, an assessment of your food intake should be added to your problem-solving checklist.
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carol
Support Team
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Posted: Sun Jan 28th, 2007 21:27 |
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I remember a time (long before the MP) when my morning coffee reliably produced a few hours of reduced joint pain. The action of chlorogenic acid that Dr Marshall describes explains why. This hasn’t happened in a long time and I can’t say that I know what’s different.
I still really, really, really enjoy my morning coffee, but I am not aware that it does more than provide the standard caffeine-related benefits. Nonetheless, I’ll sure be re-evaluating the effects of this habit on my symptoms.
......Carol
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rheumatoid arthritis dx '96...started MP 8/11/04...initial D tests: 25-D=32; 1,25-D=65...10/07 entered Phase 5...Xodol daily, Celebrex as needed...last 25-D=7 (5/14)...Benicar 40mg/4 hour, no abx
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Bella
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Posted: Sun Jan 28th, 2007 21:33 |
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Meg or Trevor,
So modulate, in the way that it suppresses the immune system when ingested?so hince less IR? Is that why it makes IR less predictable..is that why you say it impedes judging progress on the MP...it instead of benicar docking into the VDR causes less IR?
Just making sure I am getting this...Jeannine
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MP Break (5years) | CFS'92 | Fatigue | 25D=7 Dec. '13
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Frans
Member*
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Posted: Sun Jan 28th, 2007 22:44 |
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(Voor de nederlanders onder ons
For the Dutchies amongst us:
Chlorogenic acid translates to: chlorogeenzuur
Oh my, another quest for things to stay away from...
Best to all, Frans
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Burn-out/nervous breakdown Jan01 125D 48 25D8.48 Ph1Nov06 ModPh2Jan07 Ph2Apr08 Cipramil Seroquel NoIRs lite exp r/t work cover up 25D3.9(Oct07)
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Lottie
inactive member
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Posted: Mon Jan 29th, 2007 08:15 |
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Dr Trevor Marshall wrote:
Chocolate is fine.
My mother thinks you're wonderful for many reasons. Your statements on Chocolate among them 
As yet, I haven't told her about the coffee aspect though 
Lottie
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Dx-Sarc 1999 Cardiac, Neuro, Joints, Myalgia, Skin, SOB, Fatigue *Apr04-1,25D 48,25D 17 *May05-1,25D 35, 25D<5 *Aug10-1,25D 20, 25D<4 PREDx5yrs-off! 5/19/04 beg Beni 10/11 beg Mino, 1/24/05 mod P2, 2/2/06 P2, 1/6/07 P3-Worked as RN until back injury
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John McDonald
Foundation Director
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Posted: Mon Jan 29th, 2007 08:49 |
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Carol wrote:
I remember a time (long before the MP) when my morning coffee reliably produced a few hours of reduced joint pain.
Carol, maybe it is just a matter of a few hours. I intend to experiment but I don't seem to have 2 days alike in any 10 day cycle , so it will be tough to control this experiment. I have long since lost my addiction to coffee. In the long gone past I needed a cup by 9A or I would have a headache and nasty crankiness. Now I can do with or without and only have coffee when traveling (which, however is often). But working at a desk without a mug of warm beverage is just wrong.
I reckon that I will now save coffee for a treat for those travel days that severely require one.
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RA 125D38, MP 9/05 Ph2 12/05 Ph3 09/06, Oct07 2510, NoIRs lite exp r/t work covered up
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Reenie
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Posted: Mon Jan 29th, 2007 09:02 |
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Meg quotes, "...Coffee that is not fresh (two weeks past roasting) is said to contain fewer antioxidants (chlorogenic acid)."
Is it possible that we aren't getting alot of chlorogenic acid from coffee anyway due to this?
I personally don't know anyone or anywhere one would get fresh roasted coffee beans. Now, fresh ground I would understand, which would also prob contain more antioxidants than my store bought, already ground, canned coffee.
Maybe I ought not refrigerate the can once I open it since it seems less fresh is better for our purposes? 
PS And I'm not giving up my occasional eggplant parmigiana either!  Last edited on Mon Jan 29th, 2007 09:56 by Reenie
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John D
member
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Posted: Mon Jan 29th, 2007 09:03 |
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I'm not sure if this experience might reinforce this coffee effect, but.....the following event was the primary motivation for me to re-visit sarcinfo.com and make the decision to try the MP.
Sarcinfo educated me a bit about heart arrhythmia, and it dawned on me, that what doc and I had assumed was some sort of exercise or cold induced asthma, was probably arrhythmia. It happened predictably when I was in the habit of driving up into the mountains, (to the 8000 foot level) to cross country ski, while sipping my second large strong mug of coffee of the morning. I could strap on my skis, and fairly comfortably ski up the long uphill section to get to our trail system. When I stopped at the top of this section, I would feel very strange, wonder if I was going to be able to keep breathing, light headed and maybe a bit anxious. Definitely quite alarmed and concerned.
Interestingly, my neighbor, doctor, and fellow skier, (when I lived in Wyoming) had been noticing something similar when he skied, and scheduled both of us for a treadmill test. I told him I was starting to suspect the high coffee dose was my problem, so I backed off the coffee, and I don't recall if I did have further arrhythmia, however at that time, I started the MP, and really backed off on pushing myself too hard physically. I never did take the treadmill test.
I know I tried to back off coffee somewhat and even decaffeinate for a while during the last three years on the MP, but I guess I have gradually slipped back to old habits by drinking a pot of strong coffee every morning now. I'm really hoping I can continue recovery on the MP, without having to consider eliminating one of the last few vices I really enjoy and would hate to give up.
(Oh!.....I've also routinely consumed soy milk with my breakfast Kashi Crunch every morning. Guess I'll revisit the rice milk section at the store.)
Last edited on Mon Jan 29th, 2007 09:48 by John D
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Sarc- Lungs dx (biopsy)1985, pred 3yrs to 88. Begin MP:Feb/03 D1,25=58.1, 25D=18.1 April/05: D1,25=13 D25=6. June06: D1,25=31 D25=11. Dec 2012 D1,25=43 >>Feb2016 D25=11 D1,25=32
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scooker48
Member*
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Posted: Mon Jan 29th, 2007 10:46 |
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Coffee looses its freshness by exposure to air, light, and moisture.
Sherry
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D25, Total: 12 measured 11/3/15 Started MP=01/04/05 Diagnosis: Sarc 12/04; "cat scratch disease" or necrotizing graunulomas 10/88; Raynaud's (diagnosed 1980?)
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wrotek
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Posted: Wed Jan 31st, 2007 00:38 |
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| Dr Marshall, did You try to calculate Chlorogenic Acid, Carnosic Acid, Genistein affinity to other receptors ? Thyroid, etc... ? Last edited on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 00:38 by wrotek
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Lyme reflux chronic pain fatigue depression 125D36 Ph1Sep05 Ph2Oct06 Ph3Apr07 in low lux NoIRs 25D<7 Oct06
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Toni D
inactive member
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Posted: Wed Jan 31st, 2007 01:22 |
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| I'm not a coffee drinker but will drink tea. I've been using the Trader Joe's Jasmine exclusively since starting the protocol. I always leave the tea bag in the cup while it cools and even while drinking it. I see that's a big no-no now. Thanks for the good info.
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DX sarcoid-1970 glaucoma high BP asthma allergies| Meds-Lasix Xopenex Nevanac Cardizem Nizoral Cream| NoIRs No D/sun | 08/05 25D=26, 1,25D=38| 07/07 25D=<4| BeniQ6H 09/27/05| ModPh2 07/06; Ph2 09/07|Ph3 04/08| 12/08 25D=<4| 05/09 25D=<4, 1,25D=27
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Prof Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Wed Jan 31st, 2007 01:32 |
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Hey, Wrotek, not so fast
It takes a huge amount of computing power to run these molecular simulations, hours for each run. I have looked first at Genistein and Quercetin into Estrogen receptors alpha and beta, as they are known to be ligands of those receptors. I still have to get more data before I want to draw any conclusions, but my feeling is that once again VDR is the elephant in the room that everybody has been ignoring. Sure, these drugs affect the other receptors, but often not as much as they affect VDR. I am also not satisfied that we are seeing the primary action yet - the Ki values are still quite high, even though the 'wet biologists' have confirmed activity in their lab environment.
The message for chlorogenic acid is much clearer, however. With Ki in the 8 nanomolar range, this is a good ligand of VDR, definitely active. The only things working to reduce its effect are bioavailability and clearance issues, which have been shown to vary 10:1 between individuals. Thus, the concentration in the cytoplasm is relatively imponderable, but anecdotal clinical experience confirms it is likely very active (IMO).
I will give you my overview of the activities of these ligands in the other receptors once more data starts coming our of the server, which has been churning away for several days now... I usually load it up with 4 to 12 concurrent simulation jobs and let the Linux kernel multi-tasking allocate resources...
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wrotek
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Posted: Wed Jan 31st, 2007 01:46 |
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http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/73/3/532 I can't find one sentence in this study that says unquestionably that black tea contains chlorogenic acid.
It compares coffee containing chlorogenic acid to black tea (not black tea with chlorogenic acid ) by their ability to increase homocysteine levels.
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Lyme reflux chronic pain fatigue depression 125D36 Ph1Sep05 Ph2Oct06 Ph3Apr07 in low lux NoIRs 25D<7 Oct06
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Prof Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Wed Jan 31st, 2007 01:54 |
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I agree Wrotek. Many, many foods have chlorogenic acid in them, as it is part of one mechanism by which leaves (and fruit) achieve their color. The issue at hand is whether the amount of chlorogenic acid which reaches the nucleated cells is sufficient to activate the VDR. In most cases there is not enough. Coffee, however, definitely has sufficient concentration to cause a problem. Tea seem OK, as far as I have been able to tell, but there are very few quantitative studies to get the data from...
However, there are other low solubility substances in tea which primarily come out as the tea is allowed to steep. So steeping is not a good idea, in any case.
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wrotek
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Posted: Wed Jan 31st, 2007 02:53 |
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I have found this list of 210 studies about chlorogenic acid,
maybe there will be something interesting.
http://www.coffeeberry.org/chlorogenic.htm
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Lyme reflux chronic pain fatigue depression 125D36 Ph1Sep05 Ph2Oct06 Ph3Apr07 in low lux NoIRs 25D<7 Oct06
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Claudia
member
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Posted: Wed Jan 31st, 2007 04:57 |
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aha! Just this morning I indulged in a cuppa coffee for the first time in weeks... and a couple of hours later, also for the first time in weeks, the crickets stopped chirriping in my head! (tinnitus) It was quite noticeable - so much so that I jotted it down in my MP notebook. So from this I gather that: The tinnitus is an immunopathology problem and the coffee dampened the IP by interfering with that.
Bother.
I've been hearing that coffee is bad for me for over 25 years... will I ever learn?
 How depressing... I'm off to eat some chocolate.
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MP Phase1 23Mar_06; Phase2 July 10_06; Phase3 Nov 4_06. Dx Thyroiditis (Thyroxine); arthritis; glaucoma; CFS (1988-92);Kidney & bladder probs., Osteoporosis Dx 2015, Burning Mouth Syndrome! 2016. Feb06 1,25D=43.3; Aug07 1,25D=27.5; Feb06 25D=44; Mar08
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