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Prof Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Wed Jan 31st, 2007 06:33 |
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Claudia,
Not surprising, I guess. Chlorogenic acid hits Thyroid-beta very hard, and Thyroid beta produces a key protein used in hearing.
To all:
Would somebody have the time to look through the literature and find out what the total chlorogenic acid content is in the smoke from a cigarette? (that way I can focus on finishing off the simulations instead of searching PubMed ) I need to know the number of milligrams of the susbstance one inhales...
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wrotek
member
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Posted: Wed Jan 31st, 2007 11:55 |
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I remember Dr Marshall was saying about study when mice were breed without beta thyroid receptor and seemed fine, except hearing lose
And now is the kicker for me, can chlorogenic acid be a contributing factor for feeling an ear pressure which I am struggling for years ?
How strong affinity has chlorogenic acid to beta thyroid receptor ?
____________________
Borreliosis(4 strains),Bartonella IgG only, reflux,headache TMJD ,chronic pain,chronic fatigue,depression 125D36 Ph1Sep05 Ph2Oct06 Ph3Apr07 in low lux NoIRs 25D<7 Oct06
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Prof Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Wed Jan 31st, 2007 12:04 |
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Ki is 0.9 nanomolar. That is real high, Wrotek. Depending on individual's clearance, ingesting levels in the 100's of milligrams would certainly be a big, big, problem.
Here is a link to the paper about Thyroid receptors and Prestin, a protein needed by the cochlea
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/99/5/2901
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tickbite
inactive member
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Posted: Wed Jan 31st, 2007 14:54 |
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i'll be back in a minute and find a 'free' paper......
i found this real quick though,
The determination of chlorogenic acid in cigarettes by inhibited chemiluminescence analysis
http://tinyurl.com/28977f
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"Lyme","CFS", Meningitis
Phase3 8-2-07, MP on hold 11/2007
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Julia
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Posted: Wed Jan 31st, 2007 15:31 |
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Would somebody have the time to look through the literature and find out what the total chlorogenic acid content is in the smoke from a cigarette?
Trevor, searching for "chlorogenic acid cigarette smoke" in PubMed only brings up five papers. None answers your question, though one looks quite interesting (to my layperson's view!).
Putting the same into Google, I can't get any actual figures, but one book, Environmental Tobacco Smoke: Measuring Exposures and Assessing Health Effects (1986) says
...chlorogenic acid or rutin. These components are likely to be found only in trace amounts in ETS (Environmental Tobacco Smoke), and, thus, only minute quantities would be found in the circulating blood of passive smokers, making the development of assays difficult.
This source says
Since the phenols and polyphenols present in tobacco leaf play an important role in the curing and smoking quality of tobacco, a great deal of investigative work has been done on the estimation, separation, and identification of complex tobacco phenols such as rutin and chlorogenic acid. The presence of simple phenols in tobacco smoke was established as early as 1871. The phenol content of smoke became of increasing importance with the demonstration that phenol and substituted phenols can function as cocarcinogens; that is, they promote the appearance of skin tumors in mice following application of a single initiating dose of a known carcinogen. Furthermore, the smoke from one cigarette contains as much as 1 mg. of phenols.
I've done 12 pages of Google without coming up with any other figures than this. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable will turn something up.
Julia  Last edited on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 15:36 by Julia
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Prof Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Wed Jan 31st, 2007 15:36 |
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1mg.
OK, that's a good start. I had a quick look too, but decided that it was going to take a lot of my time, and it was a task I could 'delegate'. Thanks for helping out.
1mg inhaled, so there is no clearance by the liver before it gets to work on the cells in the lung tissue, is probably enough to start to affect the VDR (8nmolar) and even more easily the Thyroid-beta (0.9) and PPAR (4-7). Hmmm... How many folk have a 10-a-day habit? Hmm.. thats 10mg... certainly enough... hmmm...
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wrotek
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Posted: Wed Jan 31st, 2007 15:42 |
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| Some folks know that coffee and cigarette is an "excellent" connection
____________________
Borreliosis(4 strains),Bartonella IgG only, reflux,headache TMJD ,chronic pain,chronic fatigue,depression 125D36 Ph1Sep05 Ph2Oct06 Ph3Apr07 in low lux NoIRs 25D<7 Oct06
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tickbite
inactive member
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Posted: Wed Jan 31st, 2007 19:42 |
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Well, here's one done by the Chinese:
Capillary Electrophoresis with Chemiluminescence Detection of Rutin and Chlorogenic Acid Based on Its Enhancing Effect for the Luminol-Ferricyanide System
By: Suqin HAN, Anal. Sci., Vol. 21, p.1371, (2005).
Page 3, Table 1. States 8.90mg/gram of Chlorogenic Acid in their tobacco sample and 4.30 mg/g Rutin. I have no idea what Rutin is. The graphical representation is right next the the table. I don't understand what table 2 means...."recovery".
It's hard to estimate the grams per cigarette, however I came up with 0.413g of tobacco leaf per cigarette in the U.S. using this pdf's numbers. The WHO foundation did the pdf. The WHO estimated that in 2000, 0.91 lbs of leaf were used in the production of 1000 cigarettes in the U.S. 0.91lbs = 413g. 413g/1000cigs=0.431g/cig.
So 8.9mg/g X 0.431g ~ 3.7mg of Chlorogenic acid per cigarette.
I would like to say that, that number varies due to decline in tobacco leaf in product over the years, and will vary widely from country to country. But for the U.S. this seems to be a good number.
Well, this is only a preliminary estimate. The number sounds good, but i'll need to find another reference hopefully to back it up. Maybe find an American tobacco sample number.
~Grego
Last edited on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 19:50 by tickbite
____________________
"Lyme","CFS", Meningitis
Phase3 8-2-07, MP on hold 11/2007
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tickbite
inactive member
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Posted: Wed Jan 31st, 2007 20:05 |
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Scary! but uninteresting.
Engineering plants with increased levels of the antioxidant chlorogenic acid.
The goods:
This 1973 resource Correlation Between Chlorophyll and Chlorogenic acid content in Tobacco Leaves gives different tobacco plant strains and their respective levels of chlorogenic acid.....page 2, table 1. From 6mg/g to 17mg/g dry weight chlorogenic acid.........
So, 6mg/g x 0.431g(average tobacco leaf in cig) = 2.6mg of chlorogenic acid
and 17mg/g x 0.431g = 7.3mg of chlorogenic acid.......
it's going to differ brand to brand, country to country, plant to plant.
~Grego
____________________
"Lyme","CFS", Meningitis
Phase3 8-2-07, MP on hold 11/2007
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Prof Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Wed Jan 31st, 2007 22:12 |
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Tickbite,
I remember that when I 'had a hypersensitivity' for sidestream cigarette smoke, there was a huge difference between Asian/European cigarettes and American brands. Especially between "roll your owns" of rural Asia and processed cigarettes from the US manufacturers. So what you found all fits together, anecdotally, I guess. One remaining variable is how much of the chlorogenic acid is chemically changed by the heat of combustion so that it is no longer biologically active.
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eClaire
inactive member
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Posted: Wed Jan 31st, 2007 23:24 |
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No wonder I was craving apples there for a while (I don't even like apples all that much). Could this be why "An apple a day keeps the doctor away"...at least temporarily?
Since the worst of the recent 12-day herx has passed, I haven't been interested in apples. Perhaps an apple (or a cup of coffee) can be one palliative tool in calming a particularly bad herx without resorting to...whatever it is we might resort if we needed to temporarily shut down/dampen the immune response.
Interestingly, I've gone off of all teas (never steeped them anyway) and coffee since beginning the abx--have no desire to ingest them.
Claire
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Dec 2006, Olmesartan break Feb - April 2007, ME/Fibro/PTSD/MCS/Hypermobility (since childhood; disabled 2003); 25D summer 2012 <4 (meaning unable to detect)
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Prof Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Wed Jan 31st, 2007 23:40 |
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Claire,
Pure Quercetin is a palliative you will find in your MP guides It seems a much less aggressive and more certain path to palliation, when you really need it.
ps: some folk have found it exacerbates problems in early phase 1, so please be careful until you get your bacterial load down to manageable levels...
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eClaire
inactive member
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Posted: Wed Jan 31st, 2007 23:57 |
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| Thanks so much for reminding me. I think I am too early in the process (and having quite a time of it) to try the Q, but I do look forward to having another tool in the future. Claire
____________________
Dec 2006, Olmesartan break Feb - April 2007, ME/Fibro/PTSD/MCS/Hypermobility (since childhood; disabled 2003); 25D summer 2012 <4 (meaning unable to detect)
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senja
inactive guest
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Posted: Thu Feb 1st, 2007 07:32 |
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Thanks to my past carcinoid diagnosis, I'm aware of the fact that coffee, tea, eggplant, bananas, tomatoes and a few other foods contain amounts of serotonin. Because of that, these foods, but especially coffee and strong tea, have been off-limits many times in my past. I'm glad to learn about other substances and their effects.
Some carcinoid patients have excess serotonin and that causes eventual fibrosis of tissues, including the right valve of the heart, so tachycardia is an early but heart failure a late symptom. In the small bowel, symptoms start as IBS, but with progression one can end up with life threathening kinking and blockage. In the lungs, excess serotonin induces asthma like bronchospasms first, fibrosis later.
Excessive serum serotonin produces many unpleasant effects, so very early into disease, carcinoid patients show sensitivity to these foods, which increases as disease advances. Serotonin recycling/reuptake drugs are anatema (truly life threathening via a so called carcinoid crisis), but serotonin receptor blocking drugs are palliative to a carcinoid patient.
Since carcinoid and other neuro endocryne tumours are quite a rarity, vast majority of people enjoy the extra serotonin coffee and other foods deliver. I assume it is because of a stimulatory effect on smooth muscle and neural tissues.
I have not found any information on serotonin levels in Th1 diseases. But serotonin affects tryptophan and niacin levels and has many implications in the overall chemistry in the body. I wonder if there's a relationship between chlorogenic acid and serotonin, since some of the foods overlap.
Keep up the good work.
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Neuropathy (small fibre), polyclonal gammopathy, platelet antibodies. No dgx/treatment yet. Med/supplement free. 25D = 31, 1,25D 69 07/06.
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Prof Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Thu Feb 1st, 2007 08:48 |
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Senja,
Seratonin is not the problem. We have just discovered the problem. Please just read what we are saying until we have finished working through the available science on Chlorogenic Acid.
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tickbite
inactive member
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Posted: Thu Feb 1st, 2007 09:22 |
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I'm looking for cigarette smoke concentrations......it's a bit tough
found this enticing piece though:
The Chemical Compostiion of Tobacco and Tobacco Smoke
http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi/chreay/1968/68/i02/f-pdf/f_cr60252a002.pdf?sessid=6006l3
____________________
"Lyme","CFS", Meningitis
Phase3 8-2-07, MP on hold 11/2007
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tickbite
inactive member
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Posted: Thu Feb 1st, 2007 11:06 |
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Well, crap. I can't find much from my end. Found this abstract:scroll to page 18.
A study of the degradation process of chlorogenic acid during pyrolysis.
Other than that, that's all i've come up with with a few hours looking. The answer is out there, the paper that I posted up above may contain the answer. However, since it's so old we need a librarian to get it for us (not electronic).
~G
p.s. chewing tobacco goes straight in I would guess....
____________________
"Lyme","CFS", Meningitis
Phase3 8-2-07, MP on hold 11/2007
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wrotek
member
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Posted: Thu Feb 1st, 2007 11:29 |
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| One more thing, how much of chlorogenic acid in cigarette smoke is inhaled and how much breathed out by smoker ? Last edited on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 12:12 by wrotek
____________________
Borreliosis(4 strains),Bartonella IgG only, reflux,headache TMJD ,chronic pain,chronic fatigue,depression 125D36 Ph1Sep05 Ph2Oct06 Ph3Apr07 in low lux NoIRs 25D<7 Oct06
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tickbite
inactive member
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Posted: Thu Feb 1st, 2007 12:34 |
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| Maybe we should be looking at serum levels in humans after cigarette consumption?
____________________
"Lyme","CFS", Meningitis
Phase3 8-2-07, MP on hold 11/2007
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gulfvet
banned
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Posted: Thu Feb 1st, 2007 21:07 |
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| could you do that for lyrica they have molecule images on website.
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tick bite and rash in 86 sick ever since, I have had every SYSTEMIC problem assoc. with Th1 except brain shut off. Avoiding D & sun/light 01/07 benadryl occasionaly/started benicar 02/07/07
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