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The Marshall Protocol Study Site > PROF. MARSHALL'S PERSPECTIVE > Prof. Marshall's Perspective > Chlorogenic Acid in Coffee is powerful Immune modulator


Chlorogenic Acid in Coffee is powerful Immune modulator
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Dmitry
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 Posted: Thu Feb 14th, 2019 18:51

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Uh-oh:

Pharmacologic immunosuppression of mononuclear phagocyte phagocytosis by caffeine
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4777255/
Treatments were analyzed and compared to controls, using a beta regression controlling for factors of age, gender, caffeine intake, and exercise. We found that caffeine suppresses phagocytosis at micromolar physiological concentrations. This suppression was prevented when mononuclear phagocytes were pretreated with PKA inhibitor, suggesting that caffeine's phagocytic suppression may be due to its function as a phosphodiesterase inhibitor, pushing cells towards an anti‐inflammatory response. Additionally, these effects are altered by regular caffeine intake and fitness level, emphasizing that tolerance and immune robustness are important factors in mononuclear phagocyte activation. These results demonstrate that caffeine may be acting as a phosphodiesterase inhibitor and suppressing phagocytosis in mononuclear phagocytes by promoting an anti‐inflammatory response.
...
Caffeine is an analog of adenine and one of the most widely used neuroactive compounds in the world (Gilbert 1976). It has been studied intensely as an analog of adenosine to investigate its role in inflammatory regulation. Caffeine is metabolized by cytochrome P450 oxidase into three metabolites also in the xanthine family: theophylline (4%), theobromine (12%), and paraxanthine (84%).

Phagocytic exhaustion

In order to observe the phagocytic activity of mononuclear phagocytes as they mature, exhaustion was measured over 3 days using phagocytosis as an indicator of aggressiveness. Figure 3 shows that in noncaffeine‐treated (control) mononuclear phagocytes, cell maturity reduced phagocytosis after 3 days




Mononuclear phagocyte aggressiveness as measured by percent highly aggressively engulfing.
Over 3 days, macrophage aggressiveness decreases significantly by 34.4% (P = 0.0003), compared to control day 0. Data was generated using a paired t‐test.


...
It is difficult to assess the practical significance of phagocytic suppression, but our previous work (unpublished) has shown that cancer cells can suppress phagocytosis in a similar manner. If this is the case, caffeine may be aiding in the suppression of immune response in the tumor microenvironment. It has long been thought that regular exercise could boost immune robustness, and our results confirm that higher fitness levels prevent immune suppression by caffeine. However, this study only shows preliminary data on the effects of caffeine on phagocytic suppression of mononuclear phagocytes and further studies will need to include a greater sample size and number of experimental runs, which will provide much more representative data and better inform the average consumer on the role of caffeine as a modulator of the immune system and the health risks and benefits associated to caffeine consumption.

Last edited on Thu Feb 14th, 2019 18:57 by Dmitry



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 Posted: Fri Feb 15th, 2019 14:28

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Definitely mine pain level decreases with caffeine intake...



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Dmitry
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 Posted: Fri Feb 15th, 2019 19:51

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Could phagocytosis unblocking(caffeine withdrawal effect) lead to something like this?

Phagocytosis of Borrelia burgdorferi, the Lyme Disease Spirochete, Potentiates Innate Immune Activation and Induces Apoptosis in Human Monocytes
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2223637/

Hence pain from cytokines/chemokines(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2785020/ )



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 Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2019 13:23

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Today i had horrible left leg pain took coffee pain went away. Its like that everyday. Pain increases without coffee/caffeine



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 Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2019 20:35

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coffee is complicated, i think
I do not drink coffee when going to the dentist, because i get more sensitive to pain :(, i will concede it may help with IP :?



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 Posted: Fri Mar 1st, 2019 15:42

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Interesting. Sometimes I get the impression we really want to say "just keep on consuming caffeine because, sometimes, it might be OK, hopefully, and we really like it."

Maybe instead, we might address the evidence similarly to other known immunosuppressants and be very clear with a simple direct avoidance statement.

Coffee popularity is like a 5G network. Everyone wants it, well, unless one is on the MP. Like EMF/RF dangers, we ought to simply and accurately describe coffee and other caffeine delivery systems as what they are: immunosuppression that needs to be avoided like D supplementation if someone is serious about getting well.

https://mpkb.org/home/othertreatments/immune_suppressants

Additional clarification in MPKB article Palliative vs Curative:

https://mpkb.org/home/patients/assessing_literature/palliative
The net result is that patients generally become increasingly ill over the long-term" and "In essence, feeling better is not the same as getting better.

Maybe we need to make a danger rating scale comparison chart of known immunosuppressants, covering short and long term effects and clearance rates, that could help prioritize dangers for those who want to get out of the most danger as quick as possible. Until then just knowing "the net result is that patients generally become increasingly ill over the long-term" might help those who are ready to work toward yet another significant weaning/sheilding goal.

Best to all, and knowing best is not always easy--Janet

Last edited on Fri Mar 1st, 2019 15:45 by jrfoutin



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 Posted: Fri Mar 1st, 2019 23:37

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I've been thinking along those lines as well Janet.

We know that a lot of different favorite foods/beverages are slowing or stopping certain immune activities. So where does each one land on a scale of better or worse.

Nicotine + Vitamin D was used to create atherosclerosis in a rat model for a research group studying the effects of IP6 + inositol on that condition.



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Dmitry
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 Posted: Sat Mar 2nd, 2019 09:42

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Coffee fits the model of multi decades-long disease onset very well. What else? Probably sleep pills, antidepressants, nootropics, antihistamines, tea, creams, food choices, chronic stress.

Last edited on Sat Mar 2nd, 2019 16:34 by Dmitry



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Chris
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 Posted: Mon Mar 4th, 2019 15:41

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No doubt coffee is immunosuppressive for me. But it seems also to be of short duration.

I've had troubles with too much IP getting in the way of life, be it aches and pain or mental fog. A pot of coffee in the morning helps get needed things done, but still leaves space for evening and overnight IP.

As long as I stop drinking it by noon.

Pre-MP I could drink it until midnight and still sleep. Now, not so much. If I drink coffee late enough in the day to reduce IP overnight, it also eliminates sleep.

It also tastes way better on those mornings with heavy IP, such as after sleeping in EMF blocking bag.



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 Posted: Mon Mar 4th, 2019 15:43

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"Sometimes I get the impression we really want to say "just keep on consuming caffeine because, sometimes, it might be OK, hopefully, and we really like it."



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 Posted: Tue Mar 5th, 2019 03:11

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On high IP mornings, coffee tastes great right to the end of the pot.  On days I happen to wake up feeling good, the coffee stops tasting good in the middle of the 2nd mug.

Much of my MP experience has been in looking for palliatives for intolerable IP.  Coffee works for me.  Improvement is continuing, coffee hasn't halted progress. 

Last edited on Tue Mar 5th, 2019 03:12 by Chris



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wrotek
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 Posted: Tue Mar 5th, 2019 11:21

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That is right Chris evenings increase in IP, but if coffee u drink the IP is stronger i believe.



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jrfoutin
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 Posted: Tue Mar 5th, 2019 14:00

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It might be in the best interests of all to weigh carefully the objective data in supporting research to Marshall's model that started this thread initially.

If it is remotely possible the solid science evidence is something worth considering favorably rather than simply, hopefully, what tastes good as a guide to just how many quarts of coffee are OK to drink in the morning but not at night while working to enable immune function on the MP, and when mounting evidence suggests enabling immune function likely involves no coffee or tea (caffeine + chlorogenic acid) at all, then there are ways to get around obvious addiction and tolerance questions some new to the MP or not on the MP, might pose.

Any on the MP currently choosing coffee because they really believe it does not impede progress might actually do a simple two week washout (no coffee or tea) followed by a six month to one year sans-coffee comparison with objective markers tracked against thier currently tracked coffee use outcomes (subjective report of progress is not the same as objective evidence of progress, so objective data tracked with objective markers would be strongly advised) .

At that point, simply compiling the anectodal data might provide a better set of measures for others on the MP to consider seriously.

Best to all--Janet

Last edited on Tue Mar 5th, 2019 14:02 by jrfoutin



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 Posted: Wed Mar 6th, 2019 10:43

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All: not to change the subject but there will be a broadcast on Coast to Coast Am on Thursday Mar 7th about electro smog. guests will be Roger Tolces and Paul Lemay.

It will be interesting to hear what they have to say. it appears that the info regarding this is finally coming to general knowledge even if it is a fringe radio show.

you can get to it on line and stream it too:

https://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2019/03/07



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 Posted: Wed Mar 6th, 2019 13:19

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It is funny that tin foils hats will stop becoming a joke anymore.... There is always a pinch of truth in every story



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 Posted: Sat Mar 9th, 2019 04:13

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Jrfoutin-- but who has objective markers???
Like what for example?

(Interesting discussion)



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 Posted: Sat Mar 9th, 2019 18:30

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Hi Dogster,
Some of our members work with their physicians to keep extensive records of objective immune markers. You may have noted some of these objective markers have even been cited in international medical conference presentations.

When we on the MP are discussing annecdotal (one person) results with others on the MP, personal records backed by objective data may help clarify discussions we have on this site and when those who trust this site make decisions with their respective physicians about immune competency goals and recovery from deadly diseases.

This thread began with objective molecular modeling completed by Dr Marshall on Chlorogenic Acid, as caffeine was not showing up as a problem in other modeling studies he worked with. Caffeine (another major component of coffee besides Chlorogenic Acid) also keeps showing up in the thread, though, as does coffee and tea because coffee and tea are the most common places in a typical diet to ingest both ingredients and both seem to be present even in caffeine-reduced coffee.

Favorite traditionally-acceptable foods like coffee and tea tend to blurr objectivity in annecdotal reporting and we already know Chlorogenic Acid made the cut for "do not do" with Marshall's molecular modeling. Those that collect objective markers and track them may also have the ability to add important insights to those on the MP as well as those not on the MP.

Try to remember the vast popularity of the "sunshine" "Vitamin" D and notice how difficult it is to warn others on or off the MP about the hazards of ingesting foods supplemented with the chemical, or just the easy, cheap pill format nearly every supplement company makes in droves that any Joe Q. Public ingests without considering there might be a risk.

If both chlorogenic acid and caffeine do carry health risks, claiming coffee (source for both) is not problematic could be problematic for us if it really is (to our very ill members as well as the world).

Gathering objective (as possible) data may be of value not just for MP advice or posting credibility.

Individuals on the MP who regularly ingest up to a quart or more of coffee daily to weekly might gather objective data with their practitioners and review with more subjective daily personal records, then do a washout and collect similar objective and subjective data for comparison. That was the meaning of my post.

That data comparison would still only be annecdotal (one person). We also know even decaf has caffeine so getting Chlorogenic Acid and caffeine separated for more than molecular modeling may be problematic. (https://www.foxnews.com/food-drink/the-truth-about-decaf-coffee)

I hope that helped clarify. Best to all--Janet



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 Posted: Sat Mar 9th, 2019 20:43

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Caffeine attenuates lipopolysaccharide-induced neuroinflammation
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2905864/
The current study demonstrated the ability of caffeine to significantly reduce LPS-induced microglia activation in young rats in a manner that was influenced by the duration of treatment and dose. We estimated that a dose of 40 mg/kg in a rat was roughly equivalent to 3-5 cups of coffee per day.



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 Posted: Sat Mar 9th, 2019 21:11

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Jrf and all,
Oh I follow the argument (and read quite a lot on here.). I would love it if a doc could/would run some immune markers (other than my immunologist, but that is mostly adaptive immunity,--and he doesn't understand the OTHER stuff, like, Lyme, cfs etc).

So the question is what markers to test?
If you live near a CFS center they can find probably 20-30 markers that are off. I don't know anyone in this state that has had those tests done. Same for Lyme, Bartonella, and that group. One doc ran my
titers once, but no one treats, or even retests that tidbit.

What markers?[code][/code]



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jrfoutin
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 Posted: Sat Mar 9th, 2019 23:48

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There are different markers to choose from, but the original diagnosis or dominant diagnosis that was not being addressed with standard of care options at the time one finds their way to the MP usually will have markers that matter most in comparison dicsussion points of the particular diagnosis.

Search MPKB.org to find about 105 references for "markers" and you will find a lot of markers to choose from.

For example of a more "general" perspective of autoimmune disease see this MPKB.org article:
https://mpkb.org/home/publications/albert_hmrc_2010

Other markers and subjective report data seen in this poster:
https://mpkb.org/home/publications/benediktsson_autoimmunity_2010

Trudy Heil followed FSH/LH objective markers and found female and male "flip" to normal about the time subjective data reflected patient felt better. She also tracked those who "paliated" or used something to feel better vs those who only used olmesartan, with palliation actually slowing recovery or increasing severity of IP. You can see some insomnia/depression markers here:
http://np-privatepracticeassoc.com/2016/04/depression-and-insomnia/

Another method of choosing markers may be around the chemical itself. Look at scholarly articles on PubMed and see what researchers are choosing for any given palliative chemical (makes one feel better but is known not to cure).

Thank you for the questions Dogster. There is no requirement to track any one set of markers but if one does work with their health provider to do so, then it may provide some interesting data over time.

Best to all--Janet



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