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The Marshall Protocol Study Site > PROF. MARSHALL'S PERSPECTIVE > Prof. Marshall's Perspective > Chlorogenic Acid in Coffee is powerful Immune modulator


Chlorogenic Acid in Coffee is powerful Immune modulator
 Moderated by: Prof Trevor Marshall Page:  First Page Previous Page  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  ...  Next Page Last Page  
 

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Joy
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 Posted: Fri Feb 16th, 2007 07:59

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Is applesauce okay? I've been eating organic applesauce for more years than I can remember. Not much, just about 2 T on my morning cereal, plus around 1/4 to 1/3 of an apple a day (with skin, no skin in applesauce).

Is this okay to continue on the MP?

I'm already struggling to give up tofu now, which I've eaten for a good 25 years, at least 175 g four times a week (and have added soy milk for cereal these past 10 years also). Not much of a coincidence, I think, that I've been getting sick with Th1 for 25 years also. But apples will be a hard one for me! (Coffee went away many years ago, as did tea, wheat, eggs of course, and recently nuts due to their arginine content.) Won't have much left to eat soon.



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CFS, FM, MCS, RA, low thyroid.
Began Ph 1 9/06, Phase 2 1/07. Stopped abx 11/07; stopped Benicar 5/09. 25D: 32,17,5,4,4
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 Posted: Fri Feb 16th, 2007 19:16

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A review of chlorogenic acid and genistein states:

Apples contain small amounts of chlorogenic acid. It is somewhat neutralized by an enzyme in the skin of the fruit. Eating these foods in moderation is fine.

What is your concern regarding arginine?

Joy
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 Posted: Sat Feb 17th, 2007 17:36

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Well, I guess 2 tablespoons of applesauce a day plus 1/4 apple sounds moderate to me, so will continue. Will try and vary it with different fruits in the summertime.

I've been having a lot of trouble with constant shingles outbreaks, which got worse when I started the MP. Over in my personal thread on the Ph 2 forum, Joyce Waterhouse suggested I take lysine and look at the arginine ratio in my foods. When I printed out a chart of the lysine/arginine ratio in foods I found nuts at the very top of it, and my favorites, which I'd been eating twice a day for six months or so, walnuts, at the very top of the chart. So having drastically cut that down, and the walnuts out altogether, I haven't had a shingles outbreak since doing so. I think she hit on something for me, there, as my lysine/arginine ratio was way imbalanced. So for now, nuts are not a possible snack food. Which is a drag when you're trying to focus on eating more protein, but the constant outbreaks were driving me crazy.

And now cutting out the tofu/soy is my next big challenge. I've been living on that for about 30 years now. It's not that hard, actually, and I will probably feel way better from doing so. So thanks, Meg, for all your info on that. I was being stubborn and a holdout, until I saw Trevor's explanation, then bingo, the light went on and that's the end of soy for me.



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CFS, FM, MCS, RA, low thyroid.
Began Ph 1 9/06, Phase 2 1/07. Stopped abx 11/07; stopped Benicar 5/09. 25D: 32,17,5,4,4
Kas
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 Posted: Sun Feb 18th, 2007 14:56

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I recently discovered Gogi berries and have been having about a  handful of them with my plain yoghurt and mueseli each day. Apparently, these berries have more vitamin C in them than an orange, more iron than a steak and have numerous health benefits. I just enjoy the tartness of the berries and since eating them have noticed increased energy levels and a sense of well- being, which I rather enjoy. Best of all though, I have not contracted any of the colds or flus going around to date, and I work in a very high - risk environment. I know that these berries are a powerful anti - oxidant, but I have not read anywhere about them being an immune modulator, although that could be a possibility, I am sure. I am hoping that the fact that I eat them in moderation will not hamper my progress on the MP.

Since I drink no coffee,only occasionally have steeped black or green tea and am a lover of rooibos tea ( steeped about 30 secs in a cup of boiling water) and eat no more than an apple a day, I am hoping I can continue enjoying the berries in my diet. I used to love coffee in my youth, but once I became pregnant with child number one, I went totally off it, and the desire to consume it, never returned. I do, however, enjoy a good cuppa herbal tea and a piece of dark chocolate here and there is a pleasure I would hate to give up!!!

My one downfall, is sugar - free chewing gum. I enjoy a good chew and find it aids with digestion, but I am concerned about the aspartime etc, but still feel I don't want to chew gum laden with real sugar. I know I should give up the habit completely, and I have tried, but since flying, it has returned. Is anyone else out there on the MP also a gum chewer?

I don't smoke, I don't drink, I try and eat healthy foods and buy a few organic products ( apples, being the main one), I avoid D foods like the plague, I gave up my vitamins and supplements, so I am really hoping that a few follies can still be enjoyed here!



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Sarc Dx by splenectomy 03- Lungs, lymph nodes, liver, later in kidneys. Anemia. Started MP 2004. Non- stop now since 2007. No abx since March 2008.Olmetec only. Natural progesterone cream one daily x 3 weeks a month; cal / mag supplement. B12 when levels
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 Posted: Sun Feb 18th, 2007 19:56

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Kas,
When I look at all the stuff written about the 'nutritional' benefits of Goji berries, and I see they are part of eastern herbal medicines, I have to advise you to stay away from them. When you get symptom-free at later phases of the MP then you can enjoy them again, but right now, the ingredients I have seen listed on some of the suppliers' websites, and the list of immune conditions they are supposed to 'cure', make me draw back in alarm.

Click here for more info on antioxidents.

Last edited on Sun Feb 18th, 2007 20:18 by

I love trees
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 Posted: Sun Feb 18th, 2007 23:36

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Kas,

Yes, I'm a gum chewer, and for the same reason as you, with the same worry as you.  I've tried to quit, but it helps my digestion so much that, if I try to stop, I end up taking baking soda several times a day, or Alka Seltzer, or chewing mounds of tums and I don't think those things, or prescription meds for digestion, will be any better for me.  Chewing gum works better than all those things too.  I'm hoping the MP will sove the problem, because I'm sure it's related to my IBS. 

Carol



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Kas
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 Posted: Mon Feb 19th, 2007 05:30

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Thank you for the Goji berry information, Trevor. Do we have to be wary of all food used in Eastern herbal medicines? I will stop consuming my berries until I am further along the MP. I rather liked the fact that they are supposed to be so high in iron, help control blood sugar levels and support liver function, but at the same time, I do not want to mess around with modulating my immune system at this point of the MP. As I am still using my natural progesterone cream, it would be wise not to add more to the mix. Other than red meat, what are the best sources of iron from food?  I know about raisins and chocolate, but prefer not to consume too much in the way of sugary foods and my stomach does not do well with diabetic products.Also, how can we be sure that other food products we are consuming also do not modulate the immune system to some extent?

Glad to hear that I am not the only gum chewer out there, Carol. I guess if we do everything in moderation, it should not be too bad. I certainly do not chew gum all the time, or even every day, but I agree with you that it works wonders for digestive problems.



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Sarc Dx by splenectomy 03- Lungs, lymph nodes, liver, later in kidneys. Anemia. Started MP 2004. Non- stop now since 2007. No abx since March 2008.Olmetec only. Natural progesterone cream one daily x 3 weeks a month; cal / mag supplement. B12 when levels
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 Posted: Mon Feb 19th, 2007 20:08

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Trevor's comment, "I see they are part of eastern herbal medicines, I have to advise you to stay away from them." would indicate that it seems wise to avoid all eastern herbal medicine.

Food sources of iron.

To be reasonably sure you are not consuming other food sources that may interfere with immune system function, eat nonprocessed foods close to their natural state and in moderation.

wrotek
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 Posted: Tue Feb 20th, 2007 02:09

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How about soluble coffee, does it have chlorogenic acid ?



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 Posted: Tue Feb 20th, 2007 04:38

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Wrotek,
We do not have answers to every conceivable question. If you want to drink 'soluble' coffee then it is your responsibility to assess the relevance of the data we have gathered:):)

Claudia
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 Posted: Thu Feb 22nd, 2007 05:07

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Kas - I like to chew Jilla brand, here in Australia, but don't know what you'd get there. It has xylitol (and manitol, I think) but not aspartame. It's hard to find any "sugarless" gums without aspartame!! :X Is there anything wrong with xylitol for MPers? Gosh, I hope not. (We will be reduced to sucking our thumbs soon!):P

Trevor - I've been reading reports about studies showing that people who drink lots of coffee (and green tea) are less likely to get type II diabetes.  Naturally, they quote the scientists as saying "it MAY be the caffeine" but of course, they don't know exactly what is at work there... I am supposing it's the chlorogenic acid. Probably not so much preventing it as postponing it, I guess!



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MP Phase1 23Mar_06; Phase2 July 10_06; Phase3 Nov 4_06. Dx Thyroiditis (Thyroxine); arthritis; glaucoma; CFS (1988-92);Kidney & bladder probs., Osteoporosis Dx 2015, Burning Mouth Syndrome! 2016. Feb06 1,25D=43.3; Aug07 1,25D=27.5; Feb06 25D=44; Mar08
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 Posted: Thu Feb 22nd, 2007 06:05

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If you delay the onset of cancer long enough then it just becomes a 'disease of aging', and not an 'unexpected' disease:):)

I love trees
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 Posted: Thu Feb 22nd, 2007 23:19

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Claudia,

I don't know how it is for MPers in general, but I get hives from xylitol, just like I do from sugar, and other high carb foods, so there is some property in common between them.  I have read that xylitol ferments in the small intestine and feeds bacteria there, causing small bowel intestinal dysbiosis, leading to gas, bloating etc., and it certainly seems to do that to me.  I personally believe it feeds bacteria all through the body, and that's why I get hives from it.  But, my theory there is only based on my own egocentric experience. :)

Carol



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 Posted: Fri Feb 23rd, 2007 04:57

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oh dear! :shock:  i was only trying to avoid cavities.  It doesn't seem to do me any harm and it keeps my mouth busy when I'm driving. I would only go through a pack in a month so it isn't likely to do me any harm. It has been purported to actually kill bacteria in the mouth and act against "bad" bacteria (like H pylori) in the gut, so it must be very active and therefore perhaps not a good mix with the MP...

But holy cow!  I went searching for more info and found some interesting references to xylitol potentially improving calcium-absorption in osteoporosis.  The scientists - as usual - have no idea really how this works and went on with much theorising and surmising, including many references to it possibly having some interaction with the various Vitamins D. 

Here is a link to one such story: http://www.vrp.com/art/717.asp

 



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MP Phase1 23Mar_06; Phase2 July 10_06; Phase3 Nov 4_06. Dx Thyroiditis (Thyroxine); arthritis; glaucoma; CFS (1988-92);Kidney & bladder probs., Osteoporosis Dx 2015, Burning Mouth Syndrome! 2016. Feb06 1,25D=43.3; Aug07 1,25D=27.5; Feb06 25D=44; Mar08
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 Posted: Fri Mar 2nd, 2007 07:49

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Will chlorogenic acid displace Olmesartan from VDR, when Olmesartan Ki=10 nanomols and Chlorogenic Acid Ki = 8 nanomols ?



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 Posted: Fri Mar 2nd, 2007 07:59

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I can see now (with the Molecular Dynamics) that Olmesartan actually has a higher affinity than is calculated by the static configurations. This is because the receptor changes shape a little to move into a shape which is a stronger fit with the Olmesartan molecule.

However, based on the numbers you cite, and assuming that the concentrations were the same, then about 50% of the Olmesartan would be displaced by the same concentration of Chlorogenic acid, as their KIs are essentially equal. Reemember the S-shaped curve from my FDA presentation:):)

wrotek
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 Posted: Fri Mar 2nd, 2007 09:26

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So the static configuration does not include receptor "plasticity" ? Fascinating branch of science, especially when modeling molecule "behavior". Is there a special software for examining molecular dynamics ?



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Fri Mar 2nd, 2007 09:48

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Exactly, the conventional simplification is to assume that the receptor is fixed, not flexible. This gets you pretty close, in fact, close enough.

I would suggest getting familiar with the basic software before venturing into molecular dynamics:):):)

wrotek
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 Posted: Fri Mar 2nd, 2007 10:30

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Dr Marshall i don't know if it is necessary or required but maybe if You lack of PC computing powers, we could join BOINC project (Berkeley Open Infrastructure for Network Computing) http://boinc.berkeley.edu/ .
There are many projects
http://boinc.berkeley.edu/projects.php
Maybe we could do some nice work with them :)



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wrotek
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 Posted: Fri Mar 16th, 2007 01:26

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I can see now (with the Molecular Dynamics) that Olmesartan actually has a higher affinity than is calculated by the static configurations. This is because the receptor changes shape a little to move into a shape which is a stronger fit with the Olmesartan molecule.

However, based on the numbers you cite, and assuming that the concentrations were the same, then about 50% of the Olmesartan would be displaced by the same concentration of Chlorogenic acid, as their KIs are essentially equal. Reemember the S-shaped curve from my FDA presentation:):)


So, if we will consume chlorogenic acid, won't we lose benicar protective blockade due to chlorogenic acid - benicar competition ?



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Lyme reflux chronic pain fatigue depression 125D36 Ph1Sep05 Ph2Oct06 Ph3Apr07 in low lux NoIRs 25D<7 Oct06

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