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Capnine - biofilm bacteria's dirty little secret
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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Fri Jun 8th, 2007 12:05

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No doubt most animals did not have a latent pathogen load anywhere near what long-lived human subject would have had.

Jim,
My presentation last week at DMM2007 tells you the answer - the VDR of animals is nowhere near that of man. Even the apes' VDR are not close in homology to man. The VDR in rats and mice does not even transcribe the antimicrobial peptides.

http://www.marshallprotocol.com/forum39/9219.html

Animal models did not allow us to discover the secrets of immune disease - mathematics did, mathematics that very few scientists can even comprehend, let alone practice...

Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Fri Jun 8th, 2007 12:12

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Is it primarily the bacterial load, i.e. the quantity of bacteria, that separates "normal", "healthy" individuals from those of us that are "sick"?  Or are those of us who are sick infected with especially nasty species/strains of bugs that are integrated into our bacterial pea-soup but absent from the bacterial population of "normal", "healthy" folks?


Russ,
There is no simple answer. One certainly needs to have enough bacterial load to shut down the VDR. Most healthy folk still have a partly functional VDR. But then, folk with a heavy load of gliding bacteria are apparently more likely to have a non-functional VDR than folk with a heavy load of, for example, strep or e-coli.

As we collect more data it will be interesting to see if there are any particularly nasty species. At the moment I don't really see it, as folks with diagnoses of RA, Lyme or Sarcoidosis can be debilitated by CFS (for example) to similar degrees. So it will be interesting to see how things pan-out as we gather more data and understanding.

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 Posted: Fri Jun 8th, 2007 15:10

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Jimbbb,

My thoughts are "catastrophic system failure" = "gobbledygook".

In other words all they know is "it went wrong" :X plus lots of other scientific definitions that other great people before them have defined.

The sooner these mediocre scientists open their eyes and start listening to the ground breakers like our Prof M the better.



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 Posted: Fri Jun 8th, 2007 22:40

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I wish I had the background and functioning brain to understand this science and to ask a discerning question.

As it is, I can only ask if this has anything to do with the hip joint pain that I and many others have experienced as IPR. I'm inferring that MPers will be less likely to need hip replacements?             .............Sharon

Last edited on Fri Jun 8th, 2007 22:41 by ShrnHml



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wrotek
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 Posted: Fri Jun 8th, 2007 22:52

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Maybe we could take just a tiny tiny dose of anti-capnine :)
Sherry, Capnine is uniquely made by gliding bacteria. If capnine turns out to be the only bacterial product which blocks the VDR, you really don't want to try and target this with a drug. If you did neutralize the capnine, you would end up with an immune system that is suddenly freed to attack ALL of the pathogenic load at once. Think about it - you are using just enough antibiotic to kill a few bugs every day. Imagine if suddenly your immune system was returned to 'normal' and started attacking all the bugs, all at once. You would become very ill indeed. Probably you would die. So we need to be careful what we wish for :):):)



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Sat Jun 9th, 2007 04:29

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Maybe we could take just a tiny tiny dose of anti-capnine
It's called 'Benicar.'
 

eClaire
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 Posted: Sun Jun 10th, 2007 06:39

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I hope this is not seen as unrelated, but the joint replacement study has made me want to ask a question that I've been having for some time.  What is the role of bacteria in the rejection of organ transplants (for both the donor and donee)?  It seems to me that the field of organ transplants has so much money flowing into it that there should be a natural interest in Dr. Marshall's work.  Claire



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Claudia
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 Posted: Sun Jun 10th, 2007 10:53

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And I've been wondering for a while about the various CWD / mycobacteria / L-forms / and now gliding bacteria... of which I understand we all have a whole menagerie. Do they all interfere with the VDR or do some of them just take advantage of the situation and set up housekeeping in our cells because the more potent bacterial bretheren have done the dirty work? It seems some intracellular bacteria - in other, far-flung tissue, just "exist" but don't necessarily affect us directly/systemically.

Before this thread was posted, I was thinking of it mostly in terms of those pathogens infecting the phagocytes doing most of the work and those pathogens living in other tissues getting an advantage. But now there is this lipid, capnine being pumped out by biofilm bacteria. Which brings up a secondary question: are the gliding bacteria "complete" i.e. having normal cell walls? If so, that brings up the next logical question: what happens when you treat gliding bacteria / biofilms with ordinary antibiotics? That led me to look into biofilms, which it turns out, are really very neat little colonies of various organisms, not necessarily exclusively bacteria! Thence to reports of bacterial "persister cells" and I can't figure out if they are L-forms or "spores" or ??? But anyway, this fellow's research on that topic was interesting: http://www.biology.neu.edu/faculty03/lewis03.html 
Good luck to him, as he is trying to develop materials with medical applications which bio-films won't grow on.  Also, he makes the observation that plants - having been at it longer than humans - are "smart" enough to use synergistic interaction among different compounds in producing their natural antibiotics. 

Medical researchers need to stop looking for the (singular) magic bullet because you need to tie those little suckers up before you shoot 'em or they just glide away!  Oh dear, I think I'm suffering from a cascading-metaphor-storm...


:P Claudia



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 Posted: Sun Jun 10th, 2007 14:31

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Trevor

As a personal experience, I have 8 screws in my right tibia which are palpable through the skin. I have had them since 1990. They always were sensitive and periodically felt swollen. I considered several times to go through the trauma of removal but resisted. Over the last year, the inflammation and sensitivity have waned to an almost non-existent state.



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 Posted: Sun Jun 10th, 2007 17:31

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Claudia,

Along the lines of your comments concerning the many types of bacteria that could possible cause problems with VDR (or do they all do so).

Science News (May 19) had a very interesting article about microbial populations inhabiting the human body and discussed a few specific cases of their disease effects.

But here are two quotes i found fascinating:

"In fact, in every person's body, there are 10 times as many microbial cells as there are human cells. "The microbial part of ourselves is highly evolved," says Jeffrey Gordon, a microbiologist at Washington University in St. Louis. "These organisms have learned to adapt to life with us."  "

and this one:

"In any one human, there are 100 times as many microbial genes as there are human genes"  -- David Relman, Stanford University

This article is available in full at:

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20070519/bob9.asp

And as always Science News articles are very readable (but of course they are only articles about the much more detailed research studies).

jim
 

Last edited on Sun Jun 10th, 2007 19:07 by Jimbbb



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Sun Jun 10th, 2007 19:48

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Thanks, Jim, your link led me to

"Fat people harbour 'fat' microbes"
http://www.bioedonline.org/news/news.cfm?art=3017

and
"An obesity-associated gut microbiome with increased capacity for energy harvest"
http://tinyurl.com/2rfrzp   PMID: 17183312

which was a very nice find indeed :)
 

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 Posted: Mon Jun 11th, 2007 13:15

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My girlfriend is certified in clinical nutrition. She's all about "diet" and "exercise" being the biggest factors of obesity. I do agree that scarfing down Dr. Pepper and Cheeto's all day long sitting on your couch influence obesity, however sometimes I wonder how much of the problem is diet and exercise and how much is microbial. Besides the two divisions of bacteria detailed in the links above, how much more involved is it? I mean, surely obesity is a much more of a system wide pea-soup aggregation of L-forms and good old regular bacteria? I guess what i'm getting at is do anyone think L-forms play a role in obesity? if so how much of the overall picture do they play?

~Greg



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Mon Jun 11th, 2007 13:33

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Greg,
Yes, the bacterial family simplification that they made during that study is clearly only scratching the surface. It's value to me is in firming up my model, which predicts that all the Th1 diseases should be exponentiating together, and obesity now certainly can be placed into that model. Yesterday we found that Alzheimers does too (quadrupling by 2050). Joining diabetes, arthritis, asthma, and all the rest...
 

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 Posted: Mon Jun 11th, 2007 13:44

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Dr. Marshall, Are there stats that might show this exponential increase of chronic illness increasing in countries that are supplementing with Vit D (and/or using vaccinations) or does the condition of countries that do not supplement (e.g., food, sanitation, etc.) sort of cancel out any stats of this kind?  Claire



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Mon Jun 11th, 2007 14:00

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Claire,
There is a general trend that US health is poor by comparison with other Western nations, but little solid data. I think Michael Moore's 'Sicko' film does go into the statistics a little.

The problem is that Vitamin D is pervasive throughout the world. Indeed, baby food with Vitamin D was introduced (by Nestle corporation) into the third world back in the 1950's. I know that I was given plenty of cod liver oil by my mother in Australia (also in the 1950's).

So you can see, the epidemiological problem is not simple.

However, countries which do not have fortified milk generally seem to have a lower rate of Th1 disease than here in the USA.
 

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 Posted: Mon Jun 11th, 2007 17:18

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A formula called "lebertran" which is a fish liver oil was very popular in Germany when I was a child. Just did some research and looks like it was in use from early last century and at one stage kids were forced to drink it daily at school. I can still taste the revolting taste of it. It came in a bottle and you took a tablespoon full. So....probably several generations raised on massive daily doses of vitamin D. Inge.



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 Posted: Wed Jun 13th, 2007 13:38

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Think about it - you are using just enough antibiotic to kill a few bugs every day. Imagine if suddenly your immune system was returned to 'normal' and started attacking all the bugs, all at once. You would become very ill indeed. Probably you would die.

So we need to be careful what we wish for :):):)

Dr. Marshall,

Your comment has reminded me of a question about bacteriophages:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacteriophage

Is that the same reason that bacteriophages couldn't be used to treat Th1 illnesses? I am thinking so, but wondered what you think of bacteriophage therapy.

Thanks,
Elizabeth



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Wed Jun 13th, 2007 14:01

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Elizabeth,
Phages form part of the "pea-soup" and I am therefore very loathe to consider them as part of any therapy.

For example, these gliding bacteria produce a toxin, myxin, which kills nearby colonies of e-Coli. yet when those colonies have been infected with the T4 bacteriophage, the e-Coli are no longer killed by that toxin.

"Effect of myxin on deoxyribonucleic acid synthesis in Escherichia coli infected with T4 bacteriophage"
http://tinyurl.com/2b9pdm  PMID: 4927527

The pea-soup is a very complex mix, and is dictated by history. My tendency is to always try to return health by drawing down the size of the communities which contribute to that soup, including all viral, phage and bacterial components.
 

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 Posted: Wed Jun 13th, 2007 17:27

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If L-forms are 0.01microns (1X10^-8m) and bacteriophages are 20-200nm (2X10^-8m ->20X10-8m), that would mean even bacteriophages are at least twice, if not 20 times bigger than CWD bacterial form. However, that's not that much bigger when one considers microscopes. I'm curious as to what bacteriologists think when they encounter L-forms. Surely they can see them. I'm under the impression L-forms can't be cultured easy but they should be easily seen.



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Wed Jun 13th, 2007 17:40

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Greg,
When pathologists see L-forms in their microscopes they ignore them because they know that something that small couldn't possibly harm a human being:)

That might sound like sarcasm, but Alan Cantwell tells me he used to be given a plethora of similar platitudes..
 


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