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Prof Trevor Marshall
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"It might be hard to believe, but the "normal" virus infection might not be as "normal" as science has hitherto believed :):)

"Common Cold Symptoms Caused By Immune System -- Not The Cold Virus"
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081029101201.htm

That is just another reason that we keep telling people to always assume that what you are feeling is IP, unless suggested otherwise by Doc's work-up or bloodwork :)
 
 

Sunset
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Very interesting article. Now when researchers finally concede that your "Vit D" research is indeed valid they will have the most important piece of the immune system figured out. And they will have the necessary tools available to effectively treat patients :D:D:D

Sunset

expate
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In explaining part of the MP to those who will listen to me ;), I use this information as an  example, as in, "You know how when you get a cold, it isn't the virus that gives you a runny nose, etc.; it's your immune system's reaction to the virus that causes it."

Everyone seems to relate to that, so I thought it was common knowledge.  I guess this study is a more in depth confirmation that this is the case.

Odette

lhebel
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I'll bet that is why I didn't have a cold for years prior to starting the MP when earlier in my life I had 3 per year or so. My immune system wasn't functioning!

Rico
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On the other hand, I was getting about 2 colds and one bad flu each year. I haven't had one since I started the MP.

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http://mpkb.mp-dev.com/doku.php/home:protocol:immunopathology

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HI ALL

This is Fred in WV.  Thanks for all this info about a cold, but I would like to add to this to this discussion,  the fever blister.  I think it is caused by the TH1 diseases and the virus moves in after the sore comes out on the lips.  I have had a lot of lip IPs since I have been on the MP. 

I use to get fever blisters when I was in grade school just before it started.  I guess the stress for me having to go back to school after the summer vaction. Maybe some one can find a site that also shows this too.

Remember, we are all in this together and I am pulling for us.

Your friend in Sarcoidosis

Freddie

Rico
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Ah, I'd forgotten about cold sores. I used to get them frequently and they'd take a while to go away. They've decreased significantly since I've been on the MP. In fact, I don't really remember the last time I had one :)

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My husband and one of my sons gets cold sores every autumn. They have even figured out that sun exposure seems to be the trigger. Things just seem to become clearer and clearer. Can't wait to see what 2009 will bring!
Mindy

Paul,
The link is amazing. Everything looks so great. Can't wait for all this to be fully operational.

Last edited on Sat Jan 3rd, 2009 16:33 by Caitiegirl

carol
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The seemingly contradictory comments on incidence of viral illnesses by those on the MP has always puzzled me. Some people say they were sick all the time and now that they are on the MP, they never (or hardly ever) get a cold, etc. Others report just the opposite: they gleefully describe getting their first “normal” cold in years and attribute it to immune system recovery produced by the MP.

Anyone have additional insight on this phenomenon?

Carol

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My family has one person on the protocol, three who have cut D and are waiting to start the protocol, and 2 who are happily ignorant and oblivious to it all. My husband is a diabetic and addicted to Vit D foods.

In the last year we have found that the 2 who are ingesting D have averaged a cold each quarter. My husband has had a constant sinus infection for the last 5 months and will see an ENT next week. Oldest son is relatively healthy but is also having at least one cold/sinus infection each 3-4 months.

My other 2 sons who have drastically cut D but not totally taken it out of their diet have been sick once this year. This is a drastic reduction for our family.

I have only been sick once, with pneumonia. I did not have a cold or sinus infection first. Caitie kept telling me I was herxing.

Caitie has had some runny nose IP and some short-lived symptoms but all seem to have been IP. None lasted more than a couple of days and came and went with the antibiotic dosage.

In the past we were one of those families that stayed sick all winter long. This may have been the healthiest Christmas for the kids and  I ever. But all those stubborn ones who won't give up D were seriously sick. Maybe someday they'll figure it out for themselves.
Mindy

carol
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The seemingly contradictory comments on incidence of viral illnesses by those on the MP has always puzzled me. Some people say they were sick all the time and now that they are on the MP, they never (or hardly ever) get a cold, etc. Others report just the opposite: they gleefully describe getting their first “normal” cold in years and attribute it to immune system recovery produced by the MP.

Anyone have additional insight on this phenomenon?

Carol

Guss Wilkinson
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One of my herx symptoms is a constantly runny nose (which varies in intensity), especially when I do anything physical.

But in terms of having a cold (as I used to get), I cannot remember the last one I had...must be years, and that is despite people dropping like flies around me.

Cheers

Guss

jcwat101
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It may be more complicated than this, but perhaps one way of looking at it might be -- if you are very ill, you don't ever get colds (I was at this stage at one time), then if you improve to moderately ill, you get colds fairly often, and then when you are really well, you don't get them hardly at all (perhaps the immune system is so strong it wipes them out before they even multiply enough to produce any noticeable immune reaction).  And then it just depends on where you start when entering the MP, whether you get more or less colds. 

I think that the ultimate endpoint for us all when we get really well is to not get colds at all  :) (hope so, anyway)

Joyce Waterhouse

Last edited on Sun Jan 4th, 2009 19:28 by jcwat101

carol
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Brilliant, Joyce!

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Thanks for asking that Carol; I've been wondering the same thing for a while.  And thanks for the succinct and understandable answer Joyce!

I currently have a cold. My second one in a year. I did not catch colds for years pre-MP (however, I seemed to catch everything else). 

I'll admit that I've not exulted in my ability to catch colds again, but have wondered about the changed immune system response, as my cold of about 9 months ago was quite different than now.

The cold earlier this year hit me harder than those around me.  In contrast, this week's cold is lingering, but I only really felt lousy for a day.  My brother and father who've caught it are experiencing major symptoms and have been down for the count for over a week.

So I wonder if I'm heading into that upper echelon of wellness that Joyce speaks of. It's nice to think about, to be sure. :)

Cheers, Alayne

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For what it’s worth, my experience with the cold, for me it is one of THE symptoms to monitor my progress on the MP. Pre-MP and while on the MP could not get a normal cold or fever, although i felt like a balloon at times due to the viral (?)load. It felt like i got a cold but my body, ie immune system, was not able to respond. Like it was in a valley and couldn’t climb the mountain.
Since a couple of years can sneeze again and only recently i started to develop a runny nose and some mucus (first time in 16 years !).....and i feel so much better :)!

Afternoon Tea
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I understand the concept of failing to have an immune reaction to a cold thus being really sick, but wouldn't that result in dangerous illnesses?  Isn't that basically the problem for people with "boy in a bubble" type syndromes?  How can we be so sick that we just don't get a cold or flu yet not have any immediate repercussions?  I don't get that.

I'm just recovering from my first head cold in ages right on the heels of the first stomach flu I have had in ages.  My son had it at the same time and observed that this was the first time he ever remembered me being sick when he was.  He is 15.  I have had some minor cold symptoms from time to time but not enough to stick in his mind.  I don't think I have had any true stomach flu symptoms in a decade or more until now.  I agree with UshiAad about feeling like I can't run a solid fever or "climb a mountain."  Weird.

Another related question.  Why do some people have a break in their other symptoms when they are sick with a virus or cold whereas with others their regular symptoms get worse?  For me I had a break in joint pain while sick that was actually quite a treat.  How sad is that???

 

expate
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Well, I think all of these questions have a common question.  It's one I've asked, as an outsider to both medicine and science.  What is the disease pathway?  What makes us sick, both for accute infection and in autoimmune diseases? 

My point?  OK, so we have these slow growing CWD bacteria.  We're fine-ish for years.  Then we full blown get "a" disease.  Why?  Is it compromised immune system?  Well, not only.  I mean, I think, and I'm making this up here, but I think there must be some critical mass point when the die off that causes IP when your killing the bugs, comes in to play.  Like, I have such a huge bacterial load that just supporting their life/death cycle causes my symptoms and not my immune system's reaction.

I don't know if I'm making sense, but I think we need to distinguish between IP and disease and therefore understand what causes the symptoms of disease before we activate the immune system.

Or have I had too much wine? ;)

Odette

jcwat101
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As to Afternoon Tea's question, I would mention what a retired cold expert I know told me.  He said the most common cause of colds, the rhinovirus doesn't damage epithilial cells -- so it isn't really harming the body's cells.
Another interesting thing he told me was that 25% of colds are asymptomatic.  Some people can clear a cold virus without getting any symptoms -- they will find the person is shedding the virus etc... and they will have no symptoms at all. 

I suspect that the imbalance in the immune response caused by the colds is what can lead to complications that arise from colds.


So, just because one doesn't get symptoms of a cold, doesn't mean one doesn't clear the virus.  I also found a study that showed that people who have Parkinson's Disease almost never have colds and even in the years before they get Parkinson's Disease, they don't tend to have colds.

Anyway, I think it is more complex most likely than what I have stated in my posts, but it seems that whether or not one gets colds is not a simple linear reflection of one's state of health.

I don't really understand expate's question, so will leave it with the above statement and suggest we not get too worried about this issue.

Joyce Waterhouse

Last edited on Tue Jan 6th, 2009 19:01 by jcwat101

expate
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I will try to figure out what it is I'm trying to ask.  :?  I guess what I'm asking is, what is the pathogenesis of a viral or bacterial infection that is not an autoimmune issue?  What is the scenario when we are sick without a compromised immune system?  What is the pathway of disease, not autoimmune disease?  If we understood that, we could understand the difference between a "normal" response (do you have symptoms while fighting Mr. Rhinovirus when you have a fully functioning immune system/response, or do you not have symptoms because your fully functioning immune system wipes them out before they increase in population to have their cell die off cause cytokines to be released in large numbers?)

Arrrg, I do find it frustrating that this forum is all typing.  I think I do better when I actually converse with a person.  I know I'm making ignorant assumptions, not having any basic understanding of science, that could get me on the path to sensible questions if I could just have a conversation.

Ah well, I've tried to express myself.  Sorry, I'm just not that capable.

Odette

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jcwat101 wrote:  and then when you are really well, you don't get them hardly at all (perhaps the immune system is so strong it wipes them out before they even multiply enough to produce any noticeable immune reaction).... 

...I think that the ultimate endpoint for us all when we get really well is to not get colds at all  :) (hope so, anyway)

Joyce Waterhouse

WOW Joyce!  Great ideas.  Soooo, the MP maybe a cure for the common cold as well!!!  That would be great.:cool: 

Think how much research money  has been spent trying to find that "windmill" to no avail. :(

I didn't experience colds or flu for years either before the sarc presented.  Now I seem to get one a month (being around grand children).  Looking forward to that ultimate end point you describe. 

Gene

Fred
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I haven't had a cold for nearly 30 years.   I'd love to have one!

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If a cold is really immunopathology...then, I take that to mean the immune system is working, therefore you have cold symptoms.
If the immune system is not working, no cold symptoms. (Explains to me why so many people with serious illlness say they never get colds)
I don't really understand what Odette is trying to ask....but if it's what I think it is....perhaps what she is calling "disease" is simply an accumulation of too many CWD or other types of bacteria or virus. Requiring another type of antibiotic to help the immune system fight it off.

What other kind of disease is there?

Rico
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So, since I've never thought of myself as being seriously ill as most people on the MP are, although I realize now that my illness was worse than I thought (depression, brain fog and anxieties among the worst), I guess that would mean that since I was having frequent colds every year, my immune system was still working? I haven't had a cold since I started the MP, for 2.5 years now and I have seen improvements.

Over-Heated in PHX
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My experience is like that also, Rico, with Morgellons lesions on top of the stack.

Here, is it not important to seperate the concept of the adaptive and innate immune system?  If our innate immune system was operating, would our adaptive immune system really get an opportunity to be called to battle?

Could this be a reason that people have what seem like opposite responses?

As in, if the innate immune system has begun to operate, might it prevent the need for an adaptive immune response (cold symptoms).

Still, :Pver-Heated in PHX

Last edited on Wed Jan 7th, 2009 09:54 by Over-Heated in PHX

NorCalJim
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I've also been puzzled by the fact that prior to the MP I hadn't had a real cold for about 8 years. Of course I must have been exposed to just as many bugs as everyone around me so I'm not sure why my immune system never responded to them or how or if I cleared them without any symptoms.

Since starting the MP, I've had more colds and sinus/eye/ear infections in the first 20 months than the previous 10 years.

Joyce's explanation seems to fit my situation pretty well so far...

NorCalJim

Bane
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jcwat101 wrote: As to Afternoon Tea's question, I would mention what a retired cold expert I know told me.  He said the most common cause of colds, the rhinovirus doesn't damage epithilial cells -- so it isn't really harming the body's cells.
Another interesting thing he told me was that 25% of colds are asymptomatic.  Some people can clear a cold virus without getting any symptoms -- they will find the person is shedding the virus etc... and they will have no symptoms at all. 

I suspect that the imbalance in the immune response caused by the colds is what can lead to complications that arise from colds.


So, just because one doesn't get symptoms of a cold, doesn't mean one doesn't clear the virus.  I also found a study that showed that people who have Parkinson's Disease almost never have colds and even in the years before they get Parkinson's Disease, they don't tend to have colds.

Anyway, I think it is more complex most likely than what I have stated in my posts, but it seems that whether or not one gets colds is not a simple linear reflection of one's state of health.

I don't really understand expate's question, so will leave it with the above statement and suggest we not get too worried about this issue.

Joyce Waterhouse



Makes sense:) This one is abit overly simplified, but could it be something like this?

1: Very high cwd (microbiota) load: likely to not react to the viruses like the Rhino, if you get a harmful virus you might die from it.

2: High cwd load: might react to the Rhino, the virus are able to grow on mass before immune system kicks in, you end up having the cold a long time.

3: Moderate cwd load: likely to get the cold, viruses are able to grow on mass, immune system catch on quicker than those with high cwd load. Your not sick as long, but more violently than those with high cwd load.

4: Low cwd load: Sometimes you get sick, but not as violent as those with moderate load, and you clear the virus pretty quick:)

5: Very Low cwd load: you get infected, but clear it before it reaches large amounts in your body, leaving you without symptoms (quick and effective).

??

Last edited on Wed Jan 7th, 2009 13:02 by Bane

geirf
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Among parents with Autistic children
it is a common observation that their child never have any cold or flu when others do have.
To them it is a sign of getting healthier when after som treatments most often chelation  their child like others get a common cold,
thought of beeing a sign that immune system have started react like it should..
Geir Flatabø

jcwat101
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I think what Bane says may be pretty much the case.  However, the very very high CWD load may not exhibit as the person appearing very very sick.  It may not be simply correlated with total load, but the nature of the bacteria and immune system factors.  That may be why I know a couple people who almost never got colds even as children, and later developed sarc or multiple sclerosis.   They weren't obviously very sick as children or young adults and worked full time etc..., but the process was definitely operating as shown by the serious illness apparent later (also like the Parkinson's cases).

As to expate's question, I think what you are asking isn't necessarily clearly known for many diseases, because we don't know how much CWD most people have when they come down with these illnesses or the role it is playing.  So, the diseases have not been studied from that perspective.  Maybe most of the diseases people get, they would avoid getting or clear easily or even asymptomatically, if they were free of CWD and had an optimally functioning immune system.  I don't really know.

And each disease is different.  In some diseases, the organism produces very toxic products or has other virulence factors that play a very important role.    I borrowed an infectious disease textbook from a medical library and it was extremely heavy -- could barely carry it (and that was only one volume of a two volume set -- with very thin pages and tiny print)  :)

Influenza is different from rhinovirus (it apparently can damage cells), but I did just read that only 2 out of 3 people who acquire influenza exhibit symptoms of it -- yet they are just as infectious as anyone else and apparently they clear it just fine.

Joyce Waterhouse

Last edited on Wed Jan 7th, 2009 12:44 by jcwat101

Bane
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sorry for mixing the cold with the flu (edited). Yea i think your right, it's way more complex. I like the answer Trevor gave to the Brazilian doctor who asked at ICA2008 if all humans have the microbiota.

Trevor's answers "Yes, all human beings have this microbiota. Not all of the microbiota becomes pathogenic."

"Only those that collect a particular set of genomes that causes the human body to function in a way that is recognized as a disease"

 

Last edited on Wed Jan 7th, 2009 13:51 by Bane

Rico
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Forgot to mention in my previous post that although I haven't been that ill and got frequent colds/flus prior to starting the MP, my wife who has been very ill and it's been said she must have a very high bacterial load due to the length of time it's taking her to progress on the MP due to the difficulty of IP, also rarely had colds prior to the starting the MP.

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I’ve been following this discussion with interest, trying to relate it to my own experiences. I've found Joyce's and Bane's explanations rather fascinating, although for me there seems to be at least one other factor involved, i.e., food.
 
For my first 35 years I ate the SAD (Standard American Diet) and experienced colds and flus on a rather regular schedule, once in the fall and again in the spring when the weather would change. Always the sinuses would be alternately stuffy and runny and phlegm from the chest would start discharging after a few days. Sometimes there would be just a cold (no fever); usually it would be what we called “flu” (with fever) or maybe it was only a “bad” cold. It would usually leave after 7 to 14 days, with or without antibiotics, which I usually refused after my adolescent years.
 
At age 35 (21 years ago) I started making rather radical dietary changes, first dropping dairy and many processed foods out of my diet. I noticed very soon a lessening of severity and duration of colds and flus, although they still came around at least once a year. Gut symptoms (bloating, cramping, loose stools, extreme fatigue-inducing discomfort) likewise began to ameliorate significantly.
 
By 11 years ago I had dropped all grains, potatoes, vegetable oils and sweets of all kinds, adopting what’s known as a “Paleo” diet, i.e., eating only those kinds of foods available in a state of nature with a sharp stick or stone. Gut symptoms and flus (fever episodes) then completely ceased and colds gradually diminished in severity and duration, down to essentially one-day bouts of sneezing and runny nose, but never any color in the discharge or bronchial involvement as in pre-diet days.
 
For the 10 months I’ve been on the MP, I’ve had 2 bouts of flu-like disability with fever, achy muscles and fatigue, although only the last one put me in bed (for 2 days on the 2nd & 3rd day after starting full dose Z). And, I’ve had a couple instances of diarrhea, apparently non-food related. But, there’s been no more gut or sinus symptoms like I had pre-Paleo.

 
Here’s a quote from an enlightened veterinarian that I found helpful some years ago in understanding my experience:
 
Principle number one: The foods that are bad for us are bad in numerous ways. The “four horsemen”...gluten (from the grains wheat, barley, rye), casein, soy, and corn terrorize us in more ways than simply inducing villous atrophy, which results in the chronic malabsorption of the essential nutrients that we have covered. These foods provide staggering levels of glutamate (and aspartate), estrogens, allergens, and lectins, and when prepared for consumption, act as carriers of many of man’s worst creations in the form of GMO’s, hormones, and chemical additives… The “four horsemen” induce immune suppression and incite chronic tissue inflammation and damage…
http://www.dogtorj.net/id23.html

 
Hmm—could it be that immune suppression (or perhaps overload of toxins?) by the “four horsemen” somehow helps the entrenchment of the CWD nasties, which Dr. Marshall has shown are the actual culprits which “incite chronic tissue inflammation and damage?”
 
And is the rhinovirus or flu virus merely a trigger that sends the immune system into “clean-out” mode so that it can mount an effective response to the virus at the same time that it discharges through the lymph system the stored toxic waste from metabolically inappropriate foods?
 
And can others avoid gut and sinus symptoms (immunopathology?) by diet restriction as apparently is the case with me?
 
Raw Paleo Guy wants to know! :D

 

expate
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Over-Heated in PHX wrote: ...Here, is it not important to separate the concept of the adaptive and innate immune system?  If our innate immune system was operating, would our adaptive immune system really get an opportunity to be called to battle?

Could this be a reason that people have what seem like opposite responses?

As in, if the innate immune system has begun to operate, might it prevent the need for an adaptive immune response (cold symptoms).

Still, :Pver-Heated in PHX

I didn't know we had more than one immune system. 

:?dette
edited for typo

Last edited on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 18:23 by expate

Bane
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immune_system

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innate_immune_system

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptive_immune_system

One system, different parts.)

expate
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Oh.

Thanks,
:cool:dette

Over-Heated in PHX
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Hi Odette,

I sent you a message with my more rudimentary explanation that I wouldn't post to the main board!

Try looking at the CWD  -  Cell Wall Deficient threads that are listed in the "C" section of the ABC's of the MP.  I think that is where I got the story initially.

Here is a link to the ABC's

http://www.marshallprotocol.com/view_topic.php?id=2135&forum_id=32&jump_to=36159#p36159

Still, :PH in PHX

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I wonder if these cold groups (many colds, no colds, normal colds) correlate with the reactions to Benicar (feel better, feel worse, no change)?

expate
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Interesting.  How to explain the overall arch with the underlying anomalies?

Odette

Rico
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Well, I guess I spoke too soon. For the first time in over 2-1/2 years (all of it on the MP), I caught a bad cold. Doesn't sound like a long time for many people, perhaps, but I used to get several a year.

Well, my child (home-schooled) was exposed to a lot of kids recently after starting the first class of a new activity and caught a bad cold, including fever. Appears I got it from my child.

So, not sure what this really means, but I'd guess part of my immune system must be working...? I guess I'll have to wait and see how long it lasts - they used to last a long time.

I was also thinking whether my child had a flu or cold - well, my wife (also on the MP) has also caught this cold (found out this morning) - she thinks our child has a flu due to the nature and degree of symptoms. I would call mine a cold. But we all got this the same week. So, I would think that the difference between a cold and flu is simply the degree of immune response to it.

Last edited on Sun Jan 25th, 2009 03:14 by Rico

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I discovered that I can bypass a cold by taking a Benicar at any moment I feel a tickle coming on, or at least every 4 hours, whichever comes first. I still feel tired and foggy (immune system working) but avoid all the sore throat and snot side of things.

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I wouldn't be too quick to jump to the conclusion that you are avoiding a cold by taking SL Benicar.

1) How do you know that the cold symptoms you are getting are a sign of an impending cold? Perhaps, these are from some kind of immunopathology induced from the protocol.

2) How do you know there is a cause and effect. When I used SL Benicar to get rid of neurological symptoms, I purposely delayed the SL Benicar to ensure there was a cause and effect relationship. Delaying the SL Benicar delayed the remission of symptoms. Remission of symptoms took only a minute or two after taking the Benicar. I developed confidence in this cause and effect relationship.

Perhaps it would be a good test to take Benicar for every other onset of cold symptoms. This should help to determine the correct conclusion.

It would sure be wonderful if we could knock out a cold simply by taking Benicar. I suspect there will be lots of interesting effects discovered from re-activating the innate immune system with Benicar.

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I think it does work, because I tried it when family members were sick, so I know it was a germ and not just IP. It is possible I wouldn't have gotten sick anyway. I have been on the MP for over 2 years. But normally I catch everything. It seems to help within 15 minutes, at least in a palliative way, but only for a tickle, not so much if you already have a sore throat.

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Since I have MS,I havent't had a cold and/or fever.

The first thing happening when on MP was a terrible headache,followed by a "cold" with fever! (I'm only 2 months on MP now)

After 4 weeks I'm still coughing a lot,it seems as if my body wants to get rid of something in my lungs :D (an X-ray of the thorax was made before and it looked clean,no strange noises in my lungs with stethoscope listening)

Other things are happening also,but this is the most significant so far.

I could believe something's woked up in there:D

 

Annemarie

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I've just started reading this interesting thread and I think what is happening (generally) is how Bane explains it, and I also wonder about KFaucher's comment / question.  I wonder about the experience of folk on the MP.  Depending on where you might fall on Bane's continuum (if we applied a number to each point on the continuum) how might your response be to the protocol?

For example, I know folk who felt worse but then turned around at a much faster pace than me (2 1/3 years in and I'm not turning the corner yet; however, the light I see at the end of the tunnel is no longer based on faith alone).  I never had a cold, rarely had a virus (many years in between), could have had sufficient IP on Benicar alone, had out of control IP initially, and am back to Mino alone (waiting for my high kidney labs to clear). 

I'm thinking that we might see reactions to the MP that track where people would be on Bane's continuum.

At any rate, it would be interesting to know as it might be somewhat predictive of the MP experience.

Claire

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Doesnt work for me.  AS i got sicker and more chronic, the bugs  became more frequent, lasted longer and also got more violent (with a greater of number symptoms showing up), --  so #1 and #2 and #3 dont hold up but #4 and #5 might . . .            Just generally doesnt fit though . . .

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I just reviewed this thread because my husband Phil, who is on the MP prophylactically, has a cold that just won’t go away.  

This discussion reminded me of something Dr Blaney brought up in my consultation with him last February:  the general adaptive syndrome.    

Hans Selye pioneered the concept of the general adaptive syndrome in the 1980’s and Dr Blaney finds the model useful to describe how the immune system responds to the stress of infection by CWD bacteria, in its attempt to maintain homeostasis.  As bacteria are killed, infected cells undergo apoptosis.  This loss of cells and the release of cytokines produce immunopathology, which can be considered the actual “stressors”.

According to the general adaptive syndrome model, in the initial stages of disease, the acute phase, the body responds with symptoms that come and go.  When the body enters the adaptive phase, no symptoms are evident.  This is followed by the degenerative stage, during which it is all downhill and the body is overwhelmed by disease. (I now have the book by Selye, “The Stress of Life”, and hope I understand this concept better after I review the text.)

Carol

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Carol you just described my descent into totally disability to the T.  I watched over the years as my body adapted to various things--symptoms come and symptoms go--, including in the years before total disability where life-long allergies and serious reactions to chemicals just disappeared.  Then I crashed totally and could feel my life slip slip slipping away.  Now my health and life is returning to me.  Life is good.  Love life back.  And thank God for Trevor Marshall and everyone at this site for helping me recover what was being lost (and have something one day that I have never known: good health).:)

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I know this thread is old but I have been reading it with interest. I hope some people can chime in with their comments or directions if there is a more appropriate place for this question/theory. Or maybe it has already been answered?

I would say I am in category 2 right now. I still get colds but don’t mount a very aggressive response and they tend to drag on for weeks.

What I wanted to know is whether the colds/flu you come down with interfere with your ability to make progress on the MP? It would seem logical that when immo-compromised, you only have so much immune activity to go around. When you come down with a lousy cold, does it “slow down” your progress on the MP?? If so, would it not be better to avoid exposure from infected people when and where possible? Or, does it not matter due to the MP working in a completely separate immune pathway then for viruses etc.?? (Innate v. adaptive etc.)

Thanks,

BC
:)

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Are you sure they are colds? Perhaps it is IP? I always had a sore throat, runny nose and sneezed frequently in early stages of MP and I believe it was IP.

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I too have had the same "cold" like sxs early on in the MP.  And I've been having some the past few nights as well.  They seem like warning signs of a cold, but then just go away within an hour or so, never to develop into anything.  I am also inclined to believe they are just IP.

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Ultimately there's no need to figure out whether symptoms are immunopathology provoked by the MP or immunopathology in response to a new virus invasion, or a combination of both.  Symptoms are symptoms, and our main task is to choose our dosing in response to the level of of total symptoms.

All best,
Dody

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In another post, Prof T mentioned "we shouldn't get the flu" so I suspect that colds and such are indeed IP.

Some IP feels suspiciously like light flu or a cold when family and friends aren't infected and vice versa, when they are sick I am not.

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Hi all !

I just ran into a paper that says it is the first to actually prove (in a mouse model) that the common cold is indeed immunopathology.

See:
- http://tinyurl.com/3zrb8z9

(- http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110616081719.htm)

"In our model, cold-induced asthma flare-ups were caused by the body's immune response to the virus, not the virus itself. Chemicals produced by the immune system inflame cells and tissues, causing asthma symptoms such as cough and wheeze,"

I know the vitamin D zealots are taking humongous amounts of vit. D and proclaim that that helps against them getting colds ...  they should read this paper. Again and again and again ...

and think about what these viruses are now doing in their bodies ...  unhindered ...

Best to all, Frans

PS Thanks to cBay and Odette in helping me understand how to make url's work in firefox

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Soooo, for those supplementing with vitamin D their immune system is suppressed by the D reducing the viral symptoms of a cold giving the false impression that D supplementation is preventing colds. 

I know I didn't have cold symptoms during the 10 years leading up to my sarc diagnosis.  Now I get 2 or 3 colds a year depending on how much time I spend with grandchildren :)

Gene

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Beyond the symptom-suppression caused by "vitamin" D supplementation, I suspect that all the other symptom-suppression pushed by Big OTC Pharma probably robs folks of the immunopathology needed to do a thorough job of defeating and disposing of cold viruses.  Pass the water and tissues and hold the Nyquil please. 

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Gene,

If you quit  eating grains (including corn & soy) and pasteurized dairy, I'll bet your colds will cease, and you can play to your heart's content with your grandchildren!:D


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Hi Gary,

How so?  I don’t think there is any way to avoid being infected with a contagious cold virus when exposed.  A healthy innate immune system will mount a defense resulting in the cold symptoms.  However, the adaptive immune system will “remember” those specific viral antigens it has been previously exposed to and quickly eliminate them.  This is the idea behind vaccination.

The problem with the common cold is that there are some 200+ different viral genomes that are constantly mutating forming new strains beyond recognition of the adaptive immune system.  It is worrisome to think about these viral infections going unchecked by a suppressed immune system. 

Gene

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Gene,

Yes, you will still "catch" viruses, but the symptoms will be so slight that you will hardly notice them, like a few sneezes here and there or a little extra mucous in sinuses or lungs, but even those will be gone in 3 days or less. And you will eventually get to a point where you will notice hardly any symptoms at all.

That's because your adaptive immune system, no longer in constant battle with foreign food antigens (grains/dairy), will be able to robustly and efficiently dispatch the viral invaders like a smooth, well-oiled piece of machinery no longer burdened with waste and by-products of maladaptive foods clogging up the gears.

The lymph system, in particular, is where a lot of foreign debris gets stored, and when the virus comes along, the body takes that opportunity to clear the stored garbage as it clears the viral invaders, ergo, copious mucous production in the upper respiratory area and a diminution of vital energy.

A readable little book that contrasts the the "cellular theory" of Antoine Béchamp (and others who have followed after him such as Enderlein, Page, Reich and Naessens) with the "germ theory" of Pasteur is The Curse of Louis Pasteur by Nancy Appleton. Béchamp stated that microbes naturally exist in the body and that it is the body's internal environment, in response to various "forces," that fosters the development of disease from within.

Béchamp, whose work was disparaged by the more PR-adept self-promoting Pasteur, viewed microbes (which he called "microzymas') as pleomorphic, i.e., changing and taking on multiple forms during a single life cycle, and causing disease only when the health of the host deteriorates.  The parallels with the Marshall Pathogenesis are rather intriguing IMO! :)

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Hi Gary,

Or, the other hypothesis is that your immune system is being compromised and you don’t notice the cold symptoms as a result.

As I understand it, it takes several days before adaptive immunity can form a defense against a new pathogen.  In the mean time, a healthy innate immune system is responding with the cellular chemicals that cause the cold symptoms.  Seems this is unavoidable. 

Gene

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Gene,

Sorry to disagree, but it is not "cellular chemicals" causing the symptoms. The symptoms can be largely minimized by eating a metabolically appropriate diet according to your genetic inheritance.

I am speaking here not only from my own experience but from that of many others who have adopted a Paleo diet.

Omitting maladaptive foods does not result in immuno-suppression. When you do that, you will feel and know the difference for yourself. Until then, it's all theories and suppositions and lots of words on lots of pieces of paper. ;)

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Hi Gary,

I avoid raw meat and unpasteurized milk because I fear being infected by the pathogens that coexist within the animal.

As you know, the Human Microbiome Project is showing that humans have a huge bacterial Microbiome that lives in and on us.  I would think the same is true with animals such as livestock.  Eating uncooked meat and drinking unpasteurized milk could pass the animal microbiome to the consumer. 

As you know, when our intracellular bacterial infection increases, the bacteria products are able to act as antagonists to the VDR shutting down the immune system.  This may explain why those who eat raw meat don’t have cold symptoms. 

Gene

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I don't get any of this.

I rarely got a virus most of my life (my immune system was very compromised).  Then, before I crashed completely, after I'd already stopped reacting to most allergens and as intensely to chemicals (proof my immune system was crashing more), I had mono, a bad virus, and another strain of mono all in the course of four years.

I had my first cold on the MP in year 1.

I'm in my fifth year (nearly 4 years and 7 months in), and I've had no other viruses.  I get out and about a few times a week. 

Have I just been lucky not to be exposed to anything?  Shouldn't my immune system be improving and shouldn't I be getting viruses?

I've also heard that someone who was very healthy might not have noticeable IP in relation to a cold virus b/c that person's immune system is cleaning up the virus easily without noticeable IP.

Last edited on Mon Jun 20th, 2011 14:13 by eClaire

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Gene,

Your raw food fears are unfounded although encouraged by the industrial frankenfood pushers who profit from them. The truth of the matter is that the bacteria which are intrinsic to raw animal products (and not a result of contamination from careless and unclean practices) are quite safe and compatible with human metabolism and actually function to suppress disease-causing species which can thrive in pasteurized and heat-treated products.

Recommended reading:
http://www.realmilk.com
http://www.organicpastures.com/faq.html
The Untold Story of Milk by Ron Schmid

As I have posted previously, cooking is one of the mechanisms which can cause bacteria to morph to the L-form:

Markova has provided evidence that E. coli can survive lethal treatments such as boiling or autoclaving (subjecting equipment to high pressure steam at 121 °C or more) by transitioning into the L-form.
http://mpkb.org/home/pathogenesis/microbiota/lforms

http://www.biolsci.org/v06p0303.htm

I can tell you from my own experience, as will other raw Paleo eaters, that eating raw meat most definitely does not antagonize the VDR or "shut down the immune system"--in fact, just the opposite.

It is important, however, to eat forage-fed animal products, since the guts of such animals do not encourage the growth of pathogenic organisms like the guts of those who are fed grains and who must be continually pumped up with antibiotics to avoid disease and death prior to maturity. You see, eating grains is as inappropriate for a herbivore as it is for a carnivore.

However, a Paleo diet does not have to be raw, although dairy products, whether raw or pasteurized, would not be considered truly Paleo. Some people seem to have a genetic adaptation to secrete the lactase enzyme, but the bigger problem is casein (milk protein), which generates a maladaptive immune response in many people. 

As far as cold symptoms go, you, like myself, can rid yourself of those very well with a cooked Paleo diet, and I would recommend that as a first step.

Once you have experienced those benefits, over time you may be able to summon the courage to go raw and take your immunity and energy and resistance to aging to the next level. :dude:

"Eat it raw or die fearing it."

Kind regards,
Gary

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Sorry Gary, I don't buy it.  I will stick with well done :)

Best regards,  Gene

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I don't mind a rare steak on occasion but I want it seered to kill of the airborn bugs that land on it, sneezes and mucky fingers etc.:P

I prefer my vegies steamed and my bread fresh and the rest either grows on trees or comes in cans.

I think you can go a bit overboard with diets, you have to live in this world and going out and enjoying company and good food are some of the pleasures that are put on hold by MPers in the early stages of treatment.:(

Adopting a fad diet isn't likely to speed things up and isn't likely to get you many dinner invitations post MP either!

Colds are part of life, I have heard it said that a cold lasts 7 days if you treat it and a week if you don't.

IP or a cold? wipe your nose and let it be is what I do these days, the result is the same.
I made a mistake and had Tamiflu once, standard practice for anyone in the doctors surgery who was sneezing and it cost me some bad hours in hospital when my immune system went into overdrive, a fair comment might be to leave well alone the boutique drugs when on MP and let the body do what it is supposed to.:cool:

:dude:

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Gene and Keith,

Fad diet? Just the opposite. It's the diet that not only sustained your ancestors but allowed them to proliferate and populate the world.

There are billions of microbes within each of us, as you well know. This is part of our design. The trick is to manage your life--particularly your diet--in order to feed the microbes that are compatible with the human metabolism so that they will hold in abeyance those that are pathogenic.

Dr. Loren Cordain, author of The Paleo Diet has advanced the theory that WGA (Wheat Germ Aggutinin) is a primary factor in the disruption of Vitamin D metabolism. This is potentially the opening that L-forms needed to invade the immune system and hide within the body's own phagocytes.

Agriculture may turn out to be the biggest mistake humanity ever made, not only due to its engendering of chronic disease but also because it made possible the implementation of social control mechanisms that enabled a privileged few to dominate and destroy indigenous cultures throughout the world, replacing their ecological, spiritual and nutritional wisdom with authoritarian control structures. Among these are political, religious, educational, media and medical institutions that keep humanity in ignorance of its birthright and capacity to live healthy, productive lives in peaceful co-existence with each other and with the planet which sustains us.

Suggested reading:
(Note: I do not recommend Cordain's book since it is corrupted by his supine embrace of politically correct low-fat dieting)
http://paleodiet.com/
Neanderthin by Ray Audette  (see http://neanderthin.com/site/ )
Guns, Germs and Steel: The Fate of Human Societies
by Jared Diamond
Not In His Image by John Lamb Lash

"Colds" and "flus" do not have to be part of life. They were for me for decades, but not for the past 14 years.

It's not so difficult. I went out with my family on Father's Day and had an enjoyable meal of cooked meat and veggies, which is available at nearly any restaurant and even fast food joints.

It's much like Dr. Mercola's view of the MP. You can look at something from a distance and critique it with the perspective that your education and your culture has given you up to this point. And in your head you can find all kinds of things "wrong" with it and contrary to what you may consider to be "rational," and on that basis, you can easily and summarily dismiss it.

But if you allow yourself to consider the experiences and results that others have achieved who have had the courage to step outside the mainstream and actually experience it for themselves, you may see the potential for this unusual path to offer you a liberating and even miraculous existence.

There is no need to live in fear of your grandchildren.  :cool:


Last edited on Tue Jun 21st, 2011 04:38 by garyv

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Recent article on Popular Science:

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2011-04/fyi-what-would-happen-if-i-ate-nothing-meat

"That said, some groups of people have survived—even thrived—on an animal-only diet. Research suggests that traditionally the Inuit ate any number of meats, including seal, whale, caribou and fish. But they rarely, if ever, ate plant fiber. The key to their success, says Harriet Kuhnlein, the founding director of the Centre for Indigenous Peoples’ Nutrition and Environment at McGill University in Montreal, was eating every part of the animal, “and you have to eat some of it raw.” Raw meat contains vitamin C (which is lost when cooked), and the skin, hooves and bones contain fiber. For greens, Kuhnlein adds, traditional Inuit “ate the stomach contents of caribou and deer.”

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Speaking of getting or not getting viruses, I thought I read somewhere that the same pesky T cells that are causing us so much grief are also responsible for fighting off viruses, which is why people with autoimmune diseases don't seem to get sick anymore than anyone else.... at least that is my experience.

Deb

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eClaire wrote: I've also heard that someone who was very healthy might not have noticeable IP in relation to a cold virus b/c that person's immune system is cleaning up the virus easily without noticeable IP.
Claire,

That is exactly what is going on with me these days (and in pre-MP years, too). But I would caveat that by saying that a healthy adaptive immune system does not necessarily imply a healthy innate immune system.

Your experience has been quite different from mine, and I do not feel qualified to comment on it.

I do know that the SCDiet eliminates many of the most maladaptive foods and is a very big step towards a Paleo diet. Your adoption of it can only enhance the functioning of your immune system and certainly in no way suppress it.

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"For greens, Kuhnlein adds, traditional Inuit “ate the stomach contents of caribou and deer.”

Yuck!!!!

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Gary,

It seems that you are basing your recommendation for the Paleo diet on how it makes you feel (better).  Before I was on the MP, I took prednisone off and on for 5 years. Without exception, my symptoms improved within 4 or 5 days.  What I understand now is that the steroid was shutting down my immune system. 

How can you be sure that your diet is not increasing your intracellular bacterial infection by introducing the animal’s microbiome into your system, thus, resulting in a compromised VDR and immune system to make you feel better?

Gene     

Last edited on Tue Jun 21st, 2011 11:14 by edj2001

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edj2001 wrote: How can you be sure that your diet is not increasing your intracellular bacterial infection by introducing the animal’s microbiome into your system, thus, resulting in a compromised VDR and immune system to make you feel better?
Gene,

When you eat contaminated food and experience vomiting, diarrhea, stomach cramps, fatigue and fever, it’s because your immune system recognizes a bacterial, viral or parasitic threat to your well-being and mobilizes your faculties to expel and defend against that threat. When you consequently avoid eating that contaminated food, you begin to feel better, and your symptoms gradually resolve.

The fact that your symptoms disappear and you feel better has nothing to do with the VDR and everything to do with your avoidance of contaminated food.

It is much the same when you quit eating foods that are metabolically inappropriate for your genetic inheritance. Often such foods do not provoke the acute reaction that contaminated food does; the reaction is more subtle and develops over time, but it eventually results in unpleasant symptoms, which are usually felt in the gut but can affect other areas as well.

For example, people with celiac disease experience gut symptoms but also neurological, bone, dental and skin issues due to the atrophy of their intestinal villi leading to malabsorption. These symptoms generally improve when such people adopt a gluten-free diet, although some find it necessary to avoid other immune-reactive foods, such as non-gluten grains (oats, corn, rice), legumes and nightshades (tomatoes, potatoes, eggplant, peppers).

Similarly, people with Crohn’s Disease and ulcerative colitis have achieved great success with the SCDiet (Specific Carbohydrate Diet). This diet eliminates grains and legumes and permits only a very few specific types of dairy. Also, some have found benefit from certain probiotics, which again supports the idea of “good” or metabolically compatible bacteria out-competing and de-populating overgrowths of pathogenic bacteria.


L-form bacteria may also play a role in these conditions, which can explain why diet changes and probiotics alone are not 100% successful. But that does not diminish the positive role that diet plays in diminishing disease for many people.

I personally know of one Crohn's patient who took Benicar according to the MP for four years but followed a largely vegetarian diet. I convinced him to go Paleo, and his symptoms diminished, but it was too late to save his colon since too much damage had already been done. Due to a positive cancer finding, he underwent a colonectomy, which, unfortunately, failed to put his cancer into remission.

When I adopted a Paleo diet, it was the cooked version, and it was on that diet that I experienced relief from my troublesome gut issues which had been plaguing me for 20 years (since my mid-twenties). Cold and flu symptoms and duration also began to diminish on the cooked Paleo diet.

So, what I’m saying is that my gut symptoms and 2x/year colds/flus went away because of AVOIDING certain foods, which has nothing to do with “introducing the animal’s microbiome” into my system and disabling my immune system.

Here I must distinguish between the adaptive or Th2 aspects of the immune system, which IMHO a Paleo diet will significantly strengthen, as opposed to the innate or Th1/17 aspects. Roughly half of the body’s lymphocytes in my understanding are associated with mucosal surfaces, of which the gut contains a large proportion. When these gut lymphocytes no longer are forced to react to foreign antigens from maladaptive foods, this will obviously provide a significant boost to the immune system, primarily its Th2 component it would seem.

My Th1 issues, which are listed below on my signature line and which IMHO do NOT include the gut issues which resolved on the Paleo diet, did NOT go away with my diet changes, which is why I kept looking for an answer until I learned about the MP.

Once you avoid the most problematic foods, you will find that your gut sensitivity becomes more refined, and your awareness and ability to distinguish between foods that increase your well-being and those that do not increases significantly. So, five years after going Paleo when I took it to 100% raw, I noticed even more improvement with my digestion, as well as increased energy, less hours of sleep needed and improved skin quality and a gradual fading of old age or “liver” spots.

Again, however, my Th1 issues remained unchanged, neither worse nor better, so again I think it highly unlikely that introducing raw animal bacteria had any effect on an already disabled VDR and innate immune system. On the contrary, I have already pointed you to the research showing that cooking your meat "well done" will tend to push bacteria to transition to the L-form order to survive.

BTW Gene, you may find it interesting that the most respected lab doing genetic celiac testing, which has tested thousands of patients in this country, has this to say about maladaptive foods:

Almost all Americans, especially those descending from Europe (including Mexico and other Latin states because of the Spanish influence), the Middle East, the Near East (including India), and Russia, are genetically predisposed to gluten sensitivity… Research showing a high association of antibodies to cow's milk proteins in people who react similarly to gluten has been around for over 40 years.
And they have this to say about the association of gut disorders with other “autoimmune” diseases:

Clearly most immune-related damage in the intestine heals with a gluten-free diet. Now it appears from early research of this question that many if not all autoimmune diseases such as autoimmune thyroid disease, psoriasis, alopecia, arthritis, lupus, hepatitis, diabetes, among others, and autism improve with a gluten-free diet… More recent research has now confirmed that reactions to cow's milk proteins (mainly casein but also lactalbumin, lactoglobulin, and bovine serum albumin) are indeed epidemiologically related to autoimmune diseases such as diabetes, psoriasis, eczema, and asthma, among others.

While formal studies of dairy-free diets, either alone or in combination with gluten-free, have not yet been conducted on a wide scale, the idea of a gluten-free/casein-free diet is not new, having been employed for decades by many health practitioners. From my objective assessment of this field, and my personal experience with my own dietary elimination for health, I recommend complete avoidance of all dairy products in anyone found to be immunologically sensitive to cow's milk protein by our tests, and anyone with an established autoimmune or chronic immune disease.

I predict future research will support this recommendation. Do not bury your head in the sand waiting for such studies. Do your own study and go gluten-free/dairy-free.

http://www.enterolab.com/StaticPages/FaqResult.aspx

Finally, here’s a little tidbit of practical wisdom for you to chew on:


You can demonstrate the purpose and limits of human digestion with a simple experiment: Eat a steak with some whole corn kernels, and see what comes out the other end. It won't be the steak.
http://www.gnolls.org/1444/does-meat-rot-in-your-colon-no-what-does-beans-grains-and-vegetables/

:)

leroybrown
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I have been thinking about the paleo diet and finding it interesting. It's interesting the way we look at food and how we react to it.

If pasteurization doesn't kill L-forms, then cooking your food won't either. We cook our food to kill contaminant bacteria, but yet - we still eat it knowing it had that.

I just had a green salad and a medium-rare (local grass fed) steak. I guess that could be considered paleo. While it is acceptable to have a steak cooked that way, I'm not sure how I'd react if it wasn't cooked at all, although there wouldn't be much difference.

Thanks for giving me something to think about.

Deb

edj2001
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Hi Gary,

I grew up on the family farm in north east Nebraska in the 1940’s and 1950’s.  We raised corn and hay to feed and market beef and pork. We also had a small herd of dairy cows. 

When the milk cow lays down its udder is on the ground which can be covered with manure in the holding pen and feed lot, especially during winter.  When I was young, we milked by hand sitting on a three legged stool with the bucket under the cow’s udder.  At best we hand wiped the udder to brush off the dirt and manure.  There would be several cows in the barn at the same time while my dad and I milked them.  At some point one or two cows would void or defecate during the milking process.  Plus there were always flies.  This situation is better today with miking machines however the process is not sanitary.  I would never recommend drinking raw milk.  Not to mention adding the animal’s microbiome to the mix. 

My dad and his sister, their spouses, each had two children.  These eight people experienced 2 cases of Parkinson disease, Crohns disease, Sarcoidosis, Cancer, heart disease, arthritis, and dementia.  This indicates to me that infection is involved.  It does not make sense to me to consume raw milk or meat and risk infection. 

“So, what I’m saying is that my gut symptoms and 2x/year colds/flus went away because of AVOIDING certain foods, which has nothing to do with “introducing the animal’s microbiome” into my system and disabling my immune system.” 
How can you be sure?

“Again, however, my Th1 issues remained unchanged, neither worse nor better, so again I think it highly unlikely that introducing raw animal bacteria had any effect on an already disabled VDR and innate immune system.”
How do you know? Maybe your diet is preventing your recovery.

 “On the contrary, I have already pointed you to the research showing that cooking your meat "well done" will tend to push bacteria to transition to the L-form order to survive.”
However, I would expect that properly cooking the meat will kill almost all the bacteria allowing the immune system to deal with the rest. 

Gary,  I have read your many posts  supporting your diet ideas.  However, you are not a poster child for the MP.  Please back off and focus on the MP science and leave your special diet ideas at home.  The people on this web site are very sick; they are here to get better with the MP.  Your diet ideas belong on another web site.

Gene

carol
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Gary:
I second Gene's statement, above, regarding your proselytizing.

People come to this site to learn about and discuss the Marshall Protocol.

Limit your posts about the raw food diet, coral calcium, etc, to your personal thread. If readers want to pursue these topics, they will post there or send you a PM.

Carol

Last edited on Thu Jun 23rd, 2011 10:32 by carol

garyv
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Carol,

This thread is entitled “The Common Cold is really Immunopathology?” and my posts have explored the issue of whether or not cold/flu symptoms are true Th1 immunopathology, which I have demonstrated with my own experience that they are not. It is my belief that the topic of what is and what is not TRUE Th1 IP is a most relevant subject to those on the Marshall Protocol. It would seem you have a different view.

Furthermore, it is my perception that most people on the Marshall Protocol have gut issues along with their Th1 issues. It seems to be the position of several moderators that gut issues are to be considered as immunopathology which must simply be endured. My experience, as well as that of others who have adopted the SCDiet or Paleo or a similar diet, calls this position into serious question. It is possible that others who can think for themselves may wish to know of ways to minimize their gut issues while on this protocol which are not being told to them by moderators. I feel obligated to post about such methods in order to help such people get rid of gut issues and thus be better able to tolerate the considerable true IP symptoms that the MP entails.

There is an SCDiet thread on this site which has had 5,669 views. Apparently there ARE others who are interested in the topic of maladaptive foods and their effects on human disease and the immune system.

Since you apparently do not wish me to respond to Gene, I will only say that his latest post shows that not only has he failed to look at any of the references I have provided for him concerning raw milk, but also that he is entirely ignorant of how raw milk is produced today by responsible dairies which are finding it difficult to keep up with the demand as the populace becomes better educated on the severe health consequences inherent in industrial factory-farmed milk, a subject apparently of little interest to you or Gene.

Gene also seems unwilling to accept (or does not understand) research noted on the MP Wiki which demonstrates that even pasteurization temperature (250 degrees) does not kill L-forms, must less the temperature required for well-done beef (170 degrees).


In my view these topics are extremely relevant to the MP cohort, and I do not bring them up for the purpose of "proselytising." [sic]

Actually, however, I grow weary of spending hours and hours of time researching these topics for people who do not wish to learn but merely regurgitate, with no backup or references whatsoever, what their upbringing and culture has brainwashed them into believing. :(

So I will gladly obey your “cease and desist” order.

The greatest obstacle to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.
--Daniel Boorstin

edj2001
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"Gene also seems unwilling to accept (or does not understand) research noted on the MP Wiki which demonstrates that even pasteurization temperature (250 degrees) does not kill L-forms, must less the temperature required for well-done beef (170 degrees)."

Actually Gary, I am doing research on L-form bacteria at Collin College after completing my AAS degree in Biotechnology.  I can assure you that the total bacterial effect of the animal microbiome is far more infectious that the L-form bacteria left over from the cooking process.  Even then you need to know if the L-form is stable or not to determine if it could be a problem.  I assure you that you get far more L-form bacteria from raw milk or raw meat.

but also that he is entirely ignorant of how raw milk is produced today by responsible dairies”

I stand by my last post.  The dairy process for milk is not sanitary unless pasteurized. 

Last edited on Thu Jun 23rd, 2011 10:22 by edj2001

carol
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Hi Claire:
Regarding your post on June 20... I suggest you go back to the very start of this thread and see if those posts are helpful to you. I just did that myself. There's some good stuff there.
Carol

Last edited on Thu Jun 23rd, 2011 10:23 by carol

danalyzer
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:) I firmly believe that a proper diet is just as important as pursuing the MP. 6 weeks ago I started on the Paleo diet and have drop 2 pounds a week and never felt betterfor quite a long time. Weight loss and avoidance of carbs is quite a load off my respiratory system.

We shouldn't be telling someone to not express his ideas on this forum if it may help some people. Everybody is different and succeeds or fails there own way. But sequestering information will not allow anyone to succeed here.

I think Garyv should be commended for taking responsibility for his own health and sharing his good results with us. Not everyone may like the idea of taking responsibility for providing themselve a good diet but some of us do and the more info we receive the better we make a sound decision.

The way we eat today is about 10 mins in the year of our human evolution. we haven't had our modern agriculture for enough time for our bodies to evolve to it. Modern agriculture and diet is so insignificant in the big picture of things. I think we should all be a lot less short sighted and try to embrace our evolutionary heritage.

Archeologist can tell you that the hunter gathers of the paleolithic era were far more healthier than those found during our early agricultural years.

CousinTC
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I have an Idea Garv, why don't you open a Paleo Diet thread in the Lifestyles forum.  Then who ever wants to see it can and those that don't, don't have to visit there. 

Just an Idea, Taryn

Prof Trevor Marshall
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Bump, for Nyima's questions :)

Sallie Q
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Nyima asked
My question is whether someone who expresses robust symptoms to an infection is necessarily healthier than someone who does not?

My personal experience is that I almost never express symptoms to cold/flu type infections, such as running nose, sore throat, headaches, I just feel fatigue, dizziness and muscular aches. After 2.5 years on the MP I seem to respond to exposure to a virus by feeling off colour for a few days and then coming out of it - no symptoms.

I have a colleague who expresses very robust symptoms every time she has a viral infection, and other younger colleagues seem unaffected.

So does a healthier immune system 'see off' viruses before there is a need for symptoms, or is a lack of symptoms a sign that the immune system is not responding properly? Or maybe both are true, with someone who expresses symptoms somewhere in the middle?


Nyima
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Thanks for bumping this thread into view for me Dr Marshall:)

This paper reviews causes of cold/flu symptoms (Science Direct and pdf links for access):

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S147330990570270X

http://download.thelancet.com/flatcontentassets/H1N1-flu/pathogenesis/pathogenesis-4.pdf

The early symptoms were headache, sneezing, chilliness, and malaise, which developed quickly and also declined rapidly after 1–2 days, whereas the later symptoms—malaise, nasal discharge, nasal obstruction, and cough—developed slowly over several days and were still present 1 week after challenge.
and

The systemic symptoms of fever, headache, malaise, myalgia, and anorexia are related to the effects of cytokines released from immune cells and these responses develop rapidly in the first days of infection when the virus is detected by the immune system. The local symptoms of nasal congestion and rhinorrhoea are dependent on the generation of inflammatory mediators such as prostaglandins and bradykinin. The inflammatory mediator response may have a slower onset and longer duration than the cytokine response, which may explain the time course of local symptoms such as congestion and rhinorrhoea.
Looks like I do 'early onset' symptoms only. 

I have mostly always only done the early symptoms.  Pre-MP I would have them for weeks; since being on the MP the duration has become much shorter, and I can come across a cold, generally have a few days of feeling 'off colour' and then I'm ok again. Would it really be an indication of a healthier immune system for me to suffer florid symptoms for a week or so:?



Joyful
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I sure hope not Nyima. :(



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