The Marshall Protocol Study Site Home
The Marshall Protocol Study Site > PROF. MARSHALL'S PERSPECTIVE > Prof. Marshall's Perspective > Lida Mattman's Chicago presentation now on YouTube

 Moderated by: Prof Trevor Marshall  
AuthorPost
Prof Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff


Joined: Fri Jul 9th, 2004
Location: Thousand Oaks, California USA
Posts: 16079
Status:  Offline
The Foundation has now put Lida Mattman's second-to-last presentation on YouTube. This was filmed at our 2005 Chicago conference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WozrCFW0mRM

Lida is no longer with us, but her wonderful work will live on, through her papers, videos like this, and the people whose lives she touched (like mine).

BE WARNED -- Some of Lida's slides are very graphic. Please watch it with a friend, in case you faint...

..Trevor..

Phillyguy
member
 

Joined: Mon Feb 25th, 2008
Location:  
Posts: 265
Status:  Offline
I attempted to start a thread with this paper but was unsuccessful.  In that this paper relates to imaging bacteria, I thought it made some sense to post here.  Many people, myself included, are visual learners.  The paper is recent (9/09) and includes some really excellent imaging which illistrates the magnitude of bacterial parasatemia  that can occur in host cells.

The paper discusses borrellia infection of the tick midgut and includes some fantastic imaging which shows blebs and aggregates (clustering).  Dr. Marshall, please take a close look at figure 3 (link below).  Are the hundreds of intracellular blebs analagous to L-forms?

http://www.jci.org/articles/view/39401/figure/3


The photo shows hundreds of these blebs within the epithelial cells!  It really drives home the point that Dr. Marshall makes about the level of parasitemia that occurs in vivo.  The photos even show the conversion of spirochetes into blebs.  I'm not even sure that conversion is the correct word since it appears more like de novo synthesis of the blebs.  The paper refers to it as shedding. 

Also, please take a look at images E&F.  Would this "clustering" referred to as "networks" be analgous to biofilms?


http://www.jci.org/articles/view/39401/figure/4


The paper also goes on to dispel the myth that non-motile spirochetes are not metabolically active, etc.


Full  paper: 

http://www.jci.org/articles/view/39401?key=HnLk45JRxih3aqbS4YCQ


 



Last edited on Tue Nov 17th, 2009 09:48 by Phillyguy

Prof Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff


Joined: Fri Jul 9th, 2004
Location: Thousand Oaks, California USA
Posts: 16079
Status:  Offline
Firstly, these photos are of distribution within a gut. The scale is much, much larger than the size of L-forms that would parasitize a cell within tissue.

Second, Borrelia spirochetes do not persist in human tissue or blood. They may exist in the gut, we have no data on that. But the human immune system kills the spirochetal form very well, even until the host gets very, very sick. Spirochetes have only been found in dead human (autopsy) tissue, and in stale blood. And of course they can be cultured in a petrie dish.

Third, unless you are PCR positive for Borrelia, you cannot assume that it forms part of your microbiota. Even then, it is most unlikely you are carrying DNA for all of the 17-21 plasmids which form part of the Borrelia genome.

As Amy's talk in Beijing explains, antibodies are notoriously polyspecific, meaning they react with many different things. The antibodies used by labs to detect Borrelia are no better than any other antibodies - they cannot be trusted. That's why you need to have specific "PCR positivity." Borrelia is a pathogen which the immune system clears fairly well. It may precipitate an immune failure, but the organism itself is rarely found in the chronic phase.
 
Note this passage from the paper: "Our results imply that the intercellular junctions and basement membrane form a series of anatomical barriers that Borrelia must cross in order to gain access to the hemocoel" It is saying that existence in the gut is quite separate from existence in the blood and body tissue.

They did note apparent phagocytosis of blebs, which would allow an intra-cellular infective mode to develop.

All that being said, there is evidence that a small amount of Helicobacter DNA does circulate in human blood, and I suspect a little Borrelia DNA evades the immune system too. But that doesn't mean that Borrelia alone is causing the persistent disease called Chronic Lyme. It most definitely is not.

I hope that helps :)
 




Phillyguy
member
 

Joined: Mon Feb 25th, 2008
Location:  
Posts: 265
Status:  Offline
It does help, thank you.

Marysue
Foundation Staff


Joined: Sun Oct 11th, 2009
Location: Gainesville, Florida USA
Posts: 755
Status:  Offline
Thanks Trevor,
I almost can't count the number of times I've read posts where people make a direct connection between "infection with Borrelia" and Chronic Lyme. So, your explanation is very helpful.
I realize that you are describing only the actions of Borrelia here, but is this also typical of other types of bacteria--that we carry the bacterial DNA around and that is what alters/affects our health rather than the bacteria itself infecting cells and transcribing genes?
Marysue

"learning a lot...but probably have just enough knowledge to hang myself if I try to explain it to anyone else." :P

Last edited on Wed Nov 18th, 2009 09:03 by Marysue

Prof Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff


Joined: Fri Jul 9th, 2004
Location: Thousand Oaks, California USA
Posts: 16079
Status:  Offline
Marysue,
We carry around bacterial, viral, phage, and fungal DNA. The manner in which this metagenomic DNA manages to persist as an intra-phagocytic community determines the disease symptoms we will accumulate as we age.

The bacterial species collect in symbiosis, progressively disabling our immune systems (so as to ensure the microbiota's survival) and affecting the way our cells work.

Amy has just written a book chapter which explains this in exquisite detail and hopefully it will be online in a few months. Meanwhile, the AutoimmunityReviews paper is worth a careful read:

http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/preprints/AR-Proal-Metagenome.pdf

..Trevor..
 

Marysue
Foundation Staff


Joined: Sun Oct 11th, 2009
Location: Gainesville, Florida USA
Posts: 755
Status:  Offline
Thanks Trevor, that helps too!

A couple of weeks ago, I printed 4 of the 6 "key papers" to add to my learning/research file and covered them all in yellow highlighter and margin notes. I just went to Amy's paper from your link above and reread it. I think more of it is sinking in....now that my brain is functioning better.

Watching Lida's presentation helped me discover a real problem with my learning process. There are still way too many basic cellular biology terms that just don't register in my brain. :shock: Oops! So, I've been writing them all down and creating a glossary of terms and definitions. The glossary on the MPKB are mostly terms that I am familiar with--it's really just the biology terms that are hanging me up. You wonderful researchers use such basic terms like cytoplasm, intra-phagocytic, parasatemia, macrophage....and every time my brain crosses one of them it just fills in the word with "blah, blah, something biological...look it up on wikipedia." :?

So, I'm working through Lida's presentation with the pause button and glossary, one chunk at a time. Eventually, I'll be able to speak the language and know what I'm talking about. :)
Thanks for sharing so much great research--it's fun to learn something that matters so much and has the potential to change so many lives.

Marysue

eClaire
inactive member


Joined: Sun Sep 24th, 2006
Location: Newtownards, N. Ireland, United Kingdom
Posts: 1658
Status:  Offline
:D:D:D Marysue, your fortitude and tenacity is to be admired.  I cannot wait until the day when I am reading about Th1 illness and come across a scientific term and think  "blah, blah, something biological...look it up on wikipedia."  Right now I have to be satisfied with skimming (all my brain can handle)--feels more like reading buck shot--and going with my gut.  I feel like I need the McGuffy Reader (for the uninitiated the McGuffy Reader was an early elementary school reading tool many years ago) for L forms.  Claire

Marysue
Foundation Staff


Joined: Sun Oct 11th, 2009
Location: Gainesville, Florida USA
Posts: 755
Status:  Offline
Too funny, Claire!! I "Googled" McGuffy Reader and found pictures of each of the books. I like the second one with the picture tutorial. If someone can find me the McGuffy Reader of cell biology, that would be great!

In the meantime I found a great online dictionary of cellular and molecular biology that is easy to type in words and search. The definitions are clear, short, and distinct. Any words in the definition that may also need to be defined are highlighted and hyperlinked so you can just click on the word to go to it's definition.

Here's the link (I saved it on my bookmark bar/favorites) for quick reference:
The Dictionary of Cell and Molecular Biology
Click on "Search the Dictionary" in the upper left corner to get to the dictionary search page.

Happy learning--:cool:
Marysue

Last edited on Wed Nov 18th, 2009 09:01 by Marysue

wrotek
member


Joined: Thu Dec 30th, 2004
Location: Wroclaw, Poland
Posts: 3142
Status:  Offline
Oral spirochetes in Parkinson Disease case.
From The saliva.

here is the link to the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Esy4h8a5Q2U
 

wrotek
member


Joined: Thu Dec 30th, 2004
Location: Wroclaw, Poland
Posts: 3142
Status:  Offline
Spirochetes and gum disease, videos made by a dentist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqXblUDan0k&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3A8_6JeKoo

Prof Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff


Joined: Fri Jul 9th, 2004
Location: Thousand Oaks, California USA
Posts: 16079
Status:  Offline
The second report is quite well thought-through. Maybe somebody should suggest he looks at the salivary metagenome data in my presentation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcAVeKobsxU

:)
 

wrotek
member


Joined: Thu Dec 30th, 2004
Location: Wroclaw, Poland
Posts: 3142
Status:  Offline
A lot of bacteria on the slide.

I wonder could we somehow impair spirochetal movement, with drugs or sth else.

This seems to be the same doctor testing electromagnetic radiation on spirochetal movement. I think it is hard to tell whether it slows spirochetes down because of brownian motion.
Would not then spiros be more vulnerable for phagocytosis ? They would not burrow so much into tissues.

http://www.youtube.com/user/LymeDiseasePublisher#p/u/9/wZv4GUeKuPI


Prof Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff


Joined: Fri Jul 9th, 2004
Location: Thousand Oaks, California USA
Posts: 16079
Status:  Offline
The easiest way to deal with the spiros is to deal with the crippled immune systems of this family.

What you are seeing here is systemic Th1 pathogens crippling the ability of the innate immune system to deal with opportunistic infection. Normally there is a high concentration of Cathelicidin in saliva, protecting the periodontal region. Of course, we now know why that goes away :) :)
 

ChrisMavo
Member


Joined: Sat Aug 1st, 2009
Location: San Francisco, California USA
Posts: 885
Status:  Offline
Fascinating videos!  Thanks for posting them!

I wonder how many oral spirochetes would be found in the mouths of ALS patients?  Knowing that both Lyme and syphilis are spirochetal infections....and that both are known to mimic many other diseases... including ALS ... I wonder what a study of this would show.  Maybe there are no spirochetal forms left by the time of an ALS diagnosis... and they have all transformed into CWD forms by then. 

I know that both Dr Joann Whitaker and Dr Lida Mattman believed that a spirochetal infection was most likely the cause of ALS.  These videos raise some interesting questions. 

I have an excellent open-minded neurologist treating me.  I have sent these links to her for her opinion on how they might impact ALS patients.  I'll let you know if she comes back with anything interesting. 

And Dr Marshall's answer, saying that a healthy immune system provides a high level of Cathelicidin in the mouth is a good explanation of why so many MP patients have their gum disease disappear!   It all makes so much sense when you delve deeper into the science behind the MP!  Thank you Dr Marshall for sharing your insights with all of us!  

Last edited on Fri Dec 11th, 2009 13:54 by ChrisMavo

Prof Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff


Joined: Fri Jul 9th, 2004
Location: Thousand Oaks, California USA
Posts: 16079
Status:  Offline
Chris,
What I found interesting was that I used to have to use antiseptic on any cuts and scratches to stop them festering, but now they heal quickly on their own, even more quickly if I smear some saliva over them. My saliva never used to be soothing :X
 

ChrisMavo
Member


Joined: Sat Aug 1st, 2009
Location: San Francisco, California USA
Posts: 885
Status:  Offline
Maybe that is why dogs and cats always lick their wounds.  They know their saliva is a potent antibacterial... :)

wrotek
member


Joined: Thu Dec 30th, 2004
Location: Wroclaw, Poland
Posts: 3142
Status:  Offline
Alzheimer's disease and oral bacteria  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emmzXh7mTwY&NR=1

wrotek
member


Joined: Thu Dec 30th, 2004
Location: Wroclaw, Poland
Posts: 3142
Status:  Offline
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGX3aA1jDno&NR=1

Spore forms inside of the lymphocyte.
It is interesting idea whether spirochetes can transform into
"protective form" after being engorged by immune cell,
or do they get there by attacking immune cell.

wrotek
member


Joined: Thu Dec 30th, 2004
Location: Wroclaw, Poland
Posts: 3142
Status:  Offline
borrelia biofilm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMxOBgxIVsQ

Prof Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff


Joined: Fri Jul 9th, 2004
Location: Thousand Oaks, California USA
Posts: 16079
Status:  Offline

*** OK, enough, already ***


Everybody knows you can produce biofilms in the petrie dish, and that spirochetes can be cultured in a petrie dish. But the human body is an entirely different matter. Until you start focusing on the metagenomic microbiota which is making you ill, you will never be able to recover.

Borrelia is not making you persistently ill, if it is a component, it is a minor component. It may be a trigger, but this is unlikely. People who react badly to a tickbite do so because their immune systems are already compromized. The damage has already been done, although the Borrelia infection will weaken the immune system even further, at least in the region of the wound.

Many other species can take its place. Otherwise everybody would test positive PCR for Borrelia, and they do not. Sure, there are labs with imprecise immunology-testing who claim they can demonstrate Borrelia - but as each year has passed the specificity of antibodies has been shown to be more and more dubious.

The article you need to try and understand is this one:
http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/preprints/AR-Proal-Metagenome.pdf

While I suggest reviewing these videos very carefully:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcAVeKobsxU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGe9UTQJdHM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8AfUg3aJVk

Sincerely,
Trevor



* We can help you understand chronic disease, but only your physician is licensed to give you medical care *

Powered by WowBB 1.7 - Entire site Copyright © 2004-2020 Autoimmunity Research Foundation, All Rights Reserved
Click here to view our PRIVACY POLICY
Page processed in 0.0548 seconds (75% database + 25% PHP). 17 queries executed.