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Prof Trevor Marshall
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Another study is out, this one showing that Vitamin D doesn't boost bone strength in aging men. Most of the previous studies have looked only at women:

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/jc.2010-2284v1

So why do we continue to 'fortify' our milk? Apparently it is because of people like this:
Despite the findings, people still need to get enough calcium and vitamin D to reduce the risk of osteoporosis, or bone thinning, said Dr. Mone Zaidi, an osteoporosis researcher at the Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York, who was not involved in the study.
                                           http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE70Q8V020110127

IMO Vitamin D will turn out to be the biggest, and most costly, mistake that Medicine has ever made. Worse than Thalidomide. Worse than FenFen. It is just a matter of time until the people taking high doses of Vitamin D find that not only is it harming them, but they cannot even wean from this steroid.

It seems like hardly a week goes by without another study coming back showing Vit D is no help as a supplement. Not for cancer, not for bone, not for anything. Sigh...
 
..Trevor..
 

scooker48
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Excellent news for our cohort.

I notice the dates are prior to the IOM publication dated end of November 2010.

Sherry

Prof Trevor Marshall
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Submitted before IOM, published after IOM, just recently...
 

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I often wonder how much BMD is a true indicator of bone strength. My last(& only) BMD test was very low(-2.5), but I feel less pain in my joints and bones since being on the MP, and have never had any broken bones, etc. Doc is a little concerned. I have been doing more impact type exercising in hopes this helps. I'm 45yo, and my last 25D test was basically zero.

NWLinda
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Dr. Marshall,

I just wrote to the folks at Turtle Mountain who produce milk from almonds, rice, soy, and coconut, asking them to stop adding vitamin D. I was hoping others on the MP might consider doing the same thing.

Turtle Mountain contact:

Consumer and Product Inquiries
8:00 am - 5:00 pm PST (Mon. - Fri.)
Joseph Garland
info@turtlemountain.com
(P) 866-388-7853 ext. 330

Thank you, Dr. Marshall!
NWLinda

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:)

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You'd have to ask them to drop the soy too before the product would be acceptable.  Cynthia

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i think its rice milk . almond milk , soy ,milk all seperate
i used to drink pure soy.

NickBowler
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Chalk another one up!

Link

Last edited on Fri Aug 10th, 2012 06:42 by

Prof Trevor Marshall
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--> levels above 100ng/ml !!!! :X :X

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Thanks so much, Linda! I, too, will write to protest the addition of Vitamin D to these products!

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That story about the vitamin d pills from the telegraph appears to be gone now???

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A synopsis of the article is still available at: link. It's interesting that the  article was taken down so quickly. The results were presented this week at a meeting of the American Heart Association.
"Researchers at the Intermountain Medical Centre in Utah looked at blood tests from 132,000 of their patients.

They found those with vitamin D levels above 100 nanograms per 100ml, were 2.5 times more likely to have AF as those with normal levels (41-80ng/100ml).

Dr T Jared Bunch, a heart rhythm specialist, said patients should always tell their doctors what vitamins they were taking."
AF is Atrial Fibrillation, an irregular heart beat that can increase risk of stroke.

Last edited on Fri Aug 10th, 2012 06:43 by

Prof Trevor Marshall
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:) Hi Sujay :)
 

Markt9452
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I got the 404 on that link also Sujay.

I'm sure it's just one of those internet mixups.

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Nick's link (telegraph.co.uk) is working :)

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Relationship is found between low vitam D levels and recurrent spional cord inflamation.  However, the suggested remedy appears to be supplementation. 

Link

Last edited on Fri Aug 10th, 2012 06:44 by

Phillyguy
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Calcium, lead, and vitamin D in association with renal cell carcinoma risk in a cohort of male Finnish smokers.


"RCC diagnosis was positively associated with serum calcium (Ptrend=0.002) and 25-hydroxyvitamin D"


Southard EB, Roff A, Fortugno T, Richie JP, Kaag M, Chinchilli VM, Virtamo J, Albanes D, Weinstein S, Wilson RT

BACKGROUND: Lead (Pb) is classified as a probable human carcinogen. However, its role in renal cell cancer (RCC) has not been established. Calcium and vitamin D may off-set toxicity in vivo. METHODS: In this nested case-control study, whole blood lead (Pb), total serum calcium, and serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D were measured in blood drawn prior to diagnosis among male smokers participating in the Alpha-Tocopherol, Beta-Carotene Cancer Prevention Study. Single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) in five genes (CALB1, TRPV5, TRPV6, VDR, and ALAD) related to lead toxicity or calcium transport were genotyped. Logistic and linear regression were used to determine RCC risk and time to diagnosis (respectively), adjusting for other risk factors.RESULTS: Among 154 newly diagnosed cases and 308 matched controls, RCC was associated with higher whole blood lead (OR=2.0, 95% CI:1.0,3.9; quartile 4 (Q4) v. Q1, Ptrend=0.022) and CALB1 rs1800645 (Ptrend=0.025, minor 'T' allele frequency=0.34). Higher total serum calcium (Ptrend=<0.001) was associated with reduced RCC risk. Total serum calcium and 25-hydroxyvitamin D levels did not alter the association observed with lead. Time from enrollment to RCC diagnosis was positively associated with serum calcium (Ptrend=0.002) and 25-hydroxyvitamin D (Ptrend=0.054) among cases.CONCLUSIONS: Higher blood lead concentrations, below the 10 ug/dL level of concern, were associated with RCC, independent from serum calcium and CALB1 promoter polymorphism. Impact: Increased risk of RCC is associated with lower serum calcium and higher whole blood lead in smokers. The clinical prognostic value of serum calcium and vitamin D in RCC should be further investigated.

Eleanor
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Has anyone written to the Food Democracy Now folks about Vit D?

NWLinda
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Thanks, Eleanor, for bringing up Food Democracy Now. I just wrote to them and signed up.

scooker48
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Sometime ago, I wrote to the editor of a well known health newsletter and included materials on the MP.  I verified he received it, but never heard another word.  Quite honestly, I was discouraged.

Fast forward to November 2011 when I visited my optometric office and my Dr. told of going to Continuing Education classes where this same editor was the guest speaker.  The editor informed the students not to suggest supplementing any vitamins until more is known.

I write this anecdote to encourage our cohort.  One never knows who will eventually hear our message.

Sherry

Sallie Q
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"Say not the struggle nought availeth,
The labour and the wounds are vain,
The enemy faints not, nor faileth,
And as things have been, things remain.

For while the tired waves vainly breaking
Seem here no painful inch to gain,
Far back, through creeks and inlets making,
Comes silent, flooding in, the main. "

1862
Arthur Hugh Clough
an English poet, an educationalist, and the devoted assistant to ground-breaking nurse Florence Nightingale. He was the brother of suffragist Anne Clough, principal of Newnham College, Cambridge.

Thankyou wikipedia,  and Sherry :D

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http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1752-0509-5-195.pdf

Vitamin D hub

Markt9452
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Ahhhh the good old VDR.

"The promiscuous transcription factor". ;)

Seth
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Run away kids! It's another Vitamin D pusher:



Btw, that's 100 doses of 1000IU for 7.95 (euro). I actually backed away from the counter in my pharmacy when I saw this.
(They also sell lots of candy and chocolate at the pharmacy counter, which I found weird).

Last edited on Mon Dec 12th, 2011 13:18 by Seth

NickBowler
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http://www.scotsman.com/news/health/more_vitamin_d_is_not_necessarily_better_1_2053591

Prof Trevor Marshall
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I left a response, Nick :)
 

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Dr Trevor Marshall wrote: I left a response, Nick :)
 

Cool! :)

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Risks: When Too Much Vitamin D Is Too Much

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/17/health/research/risks-when-too-much-vitamin-d-is-too-much.html?hpw

Last edited on Fri Jan 13th, 2012 14:17 by edj2001

Prof Trevor Marshall
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Gene,
That was the paper and graph I discussed in my webconference last week :)

http://marshallProtocol.com/conferences


NickBowler
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This was the headline item on the 'Breakfast' program this morning. Lot of sabre rattling going on in the UK at the moment, even talk of fortifying milk and orange juice like they do in the USA:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-16696800

NickBowler
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Big new study announced:

http://goo.gl/fTFte



Last edited on Fri May 4th, 2012 10:35 by Prof Trevor Marshall

Prof Trevor Marshall
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Hmmm... Interesting. I had missed that Denmark had begun fortifying milk...

Ron
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Same is happening in our country. I wish I knew how to prevent it and protect my children.. :X

fibro
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I note that two of the biomarkers used to infer health status in the D/O3 Health Study, are blood pressure and rate of infections. Since blood pressure in chronic disease is often lowered by LPS and immunosuppression with vitamin D will hide symptomatic evidence of infection, I imagine the study's conclusions may at the least be distorted and at worst be totally invalid.

Fibro

Bane
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Vitamin D: Too much of a good thing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjRfxvsFrMI

Bane
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Vitamin D: A double-edged sword in the fight against osteoporosis?

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2012-04/joci-vda041812.php

"In this month's issue of JCI, Dr. Geert Carmeliet and colleagues at the University of Leuven in Leuven, Belgium, investigated how vitamin D affects the skeleton when serum calcium levels are depleted. Using mice that lack the intestinal vitamin D receptor, the researchers showed that the mice still had normal serum calcium levels even when given a low-calcium diet. Additional experiments demonstrated that vitamin D stimulated bone cells to produce factors that removed calcium from bone in a process known as bone resorption in order to maintain normal serum calcium levels. Thus, while vitamin D is important for maintaining serum calcium levels, it can also promote bone density loss"

scooker48
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Bane,

Excellent find.  Take a bow!

This fits in with my experience:  since I've been on the MP, my bone loss has slowed.

Sherry

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Expert advises against high doses of supplements

http://tiny.cc/ounsdw

"That vitamin D and calcium you're taking could be causing more harm than good, a new article in the Journal of the National Cancer Institute says"

"Jacobs said the authors are not trying to say people who take supplements will get cancer. But she cautions about taking megadoses like 10,000 I.U.s of vitamin D per day, for example"


"Undoubtedly, use is driven by a common belief that supplements can improve health and protect against disease, and that at worst, they are harmless," the scientists write. "However, the assumption that any dietary supplement is safe under all circumstances and in all quantities is no longer empirically reasonable."



"Folic acid is recommended for women considering pregnancy, but it is an example of a supplement that could be harmful for people who don't need it, Jacobs said"

Last edited on Fri May 4th, 2012 08:22 by Bane

pgeek
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This is showing as one of those extra-wide threads (in Chrome browser). Does anyone know how to fix it?

Prof Trevor Marshall
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I goo.gl 'ed one of NickBowler's long URLs.. DId that fix it? It is OK in FireFox.

pgeek
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Yep - that did the the trick! Thanks!

Rico
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Vitamin D non-skeletal health benefits unclear

http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/2012/05/18/vitamin-d-supplements-clinical-trials.html

Bane
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Too Much Vitamin D Can Be as Unhealthy as Too Little, Study Suggests

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120529102346.htm

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/early/2012/05/09/jc.2012-1176

"We have had access to blood tests from a quarter of a million Copenhageners. We found higher mortality in people with a low level of vitamin D in their blood, but to our surprise, we also found it in people with a high level of vitamin D. We can draw a graph showing that perhaps it is harmful with too little and too much vitamin D,"

"The study is the largest of its kind -- and it was only possible to conduct it because of Denmark's civil registration system, which is unique in the Nordic countries. The 247,574 blood samples come from the Copenhagen General Practitioners Laboratory:"

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This report on ABC News last week warns about calcium supplementation causing increased heart attack risk, but I wonder if they've factored in the reality that most calcium is sold with considerable levels of Vitamin D:

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/HeartHealth/calcium-supplements-linked-heart-attack-risk/story?id=16413252#.T8aFZFLB-So

Jasmine

Prof Trevor Marshall
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It looks like a key Government agency is at last warning against D and Calcium supplementation for post-menopausal women. The evidence-base is slowly sinking-in:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/story/2012-06-07/panel-vitamin-d-recommendations/55549414/1

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http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/06/120615103525.htm

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NickBowler wrote: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/06/120615103525.htm
In this study, researchers used pooled data from eight randomized controlled trials with more than 1,000 participants each. The patient data set was composed of nearly 90 percent women, with a median age of 70 years. During the three-year study, death was reduced by 9 percent in those treated with vitamin D with calcium.


Suppressing the immune system may be the best option in some cases of end of life care.

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This was really a comparison of calcium and no calcium.  Where is the control group with no vitamin D?  Don't think they even thought of that.  It just goes to show you how completely they believe in vitamin D that they never even considered there was a flaw in their studies.  Cynthia

Bane
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NickBowler wrote: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/06/120615103525.htm
"The findings from the study found that the reduced mortality was not due to a lower number of fractures, but represents a beneficial effect beyond the reduced fracture risk"

"Our results showed reduced mortality in elderly patients using vitamin D supplements in combination with calcium, but these results were not found in patients on vitamin D alone."

NickBowler
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Exactly Bane! also see this quote in the recent study below: 'Vitamin D theories and findings are confounded by evidence that people with higher serum 25-hydroxy vitamin D levels have an increased risk of pancreatic cancer.'

http://www.medpagetoday.com/HematologyOncology/OtherCancers/33345

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Hi, I just stumbled across this link and found it interesting, because it states that some D tests are inaccurate and that people could be over-treated for a perceived deficiency when there isn't one.

http://www.everydayhealth.com/healthy-living/0625/vitamin-d-tests-are-inaccurate-study-says.aspx

NickBowler
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oh dear!

http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/efsajournal/pub/2813.htm

Prof Trevor Marshall
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NickBowler wrote: oh dear
Well, at least this level of monumental stupidity will eventually cause some serious questions to be asked about how such a report could ever be issued, especially in the light of the U-shaped curve adverse data, which has been coming out for some time now...

We need to understand - only a tiny fraction of scientists and expert-physicians know how to use Google to search for available studies on a topic. Let alone PubMed, and its more cryptic command concepts...
 

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Hormesis and vitamin D:

http://www.ajcn.org/content/88/2/578S.full.pdf

Prof Trevor Marshall
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You don't need concepts like "hormesis" to explain dose response - real science is perfectly capable of doing so. But it requires a lot more basic knowledge than most seem to have these days...
 

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Effect of Vitamin D Supplementation on Mycobacterium tuberculosis-Induced Innate Immune Responses in a Canadian Dené First Nations Cohort.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0040692

"In this study we showed that serum levels of LL-37 decreased after vitamin D supplementation in both Dené and Caucasian participants"

Markt9452
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Dear CANADA,

Please stop the mandatory supplementation now.

markt9452

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Bane wrote:
Effect of Vitamin D Supplementation on Mycobacterium tuberculosis-Induced Innate Immune Responses in a Canadian Dené First Nations Cohort.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0040692


Unbelievable. They tested a multitude of secondary markers BUT did not measure 1,25D directly???

fibro
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Vitamin D and calcium supplementation - effect in prostate cancer:

link

Gus.

Last edited on Fri Aug 10th, 2012 06:45 by

scooker48
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A small pilot study of Marin County women determined through testing to be at high risk for breast cancer found them to be almost twice as likely to have a variant of a vitamin D receptor as the overall population of 338 in the study.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/health/article/Marin-breast-cancer-linked-to-vitamin-D-3770785.php#ixzz239xaofrq

 

Prof Trevor Marshall
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The final few slides in my St Petersburg presentation explain how the Genetic testing being done these days is subject to very significant errors. I stated that many, perhaps most, of these "mutations" or "haplotypes" or whatever are just artifacts of microbes affecting the assembly of the human genome.
 

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New 'map' from the International Osteoporosis Foundation: http://www.iofbonehealth.org/facts-and-statistics/vitamin-d-studies-map

fibro
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When you look at the vitamin D map for adults, what is interesting is that there is no latitude correlation which would be expected if low 25D was caused by lack of sunlight rather than, as we believe, by disease. In fact there is a noticeable difference in east to west.

I wonder if this could be a mendelian genetic difference that causes "normal" 25D levels to be different in populations from eastern Europe and Asia as opposed to western Europe and the Americas? The numbers dominant immigrant white American population is presumably drawn mainly from western Europe, both in North and South America.

Also interesting is that there is a noticeable difference in D status from Northern Ireland and Eire, in spite of the fact that lifestyle and diet is probably very similar. However, the northern part of the island of Ireland probably has a much larger population of historical immigration from Scotland and northern England simply because of greater proximity and the D levels there are indeed similar.

It is notable too that Iceland has relatively low levels of D compared to Norway and Scotland, its closest geographic neighbours but Iceland probably has a large Danish genetic influence since it is administered by Denmark and Denmark again has similar low levels of vitamin D.

The D level in Australia, is predictably the same as in western Europe, whilst South Africa with a rather more eastern Dutch immigrant population and native South African population has lower levels of vitamin D -  even though it is at a similar latitude as Australia.

Case closed.

fibro


Prof Trevor Marshall
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Case closed.
But you see, this is where Scientific method is so important. Have you considered whether Danish immigrants to Iceland continue to prefer the same foodstuffs as their families were accustomed to in Denmark? Certainly I can remember the Greek and Chinese migrants in Australia bringing their own cuisine. It is critical to explore all hypotheses, alternative and null, before accepting the most obvious.

In any case, it is not the Mendelian genes which tend to be dysregulated by migration, they are overwhelmed by the non-Mendelian SNPs. All 20 million of them (at last count).

Also, I doubt that the food sources and processing for Northern Ireland and Ireland are the same. I would want to check that one out in more detail...
 

fibro
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Yes - "Case Closed" was very tongue-in-cheek to say the least! :)

However, the real point I was making is that if low 25D was caused by lack of sunlight we ought to see the famous latitude gradient - which we don't. The hypothetical racial origin variation was really an aside. Nonetheless there is some evidence that vitamin D metabolism varies with ethnic origin. See:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn22234-vitamin-d-may-increase-ivf-success--depending-on-race.html

 Bearing in mind that there is an optimum level of 25D, where less generally indicates  lowered health status and more is counterproductive in terms of optimum immune response, the opposite effects seen in the report above would fit well with an optimum level varying dependent on ethnic origin.

fibro

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Bearing in mind that there is an optimum level of 25D, where less generally indicates  lowered health status
Given? Why is that given? Maybe the 25-D level on blood just reflects the blood's ability to transport it (via DBP / GcMAF) and the level of 25-D synthesis in adipose (etc) tissues? It seems that the teens is the range (12-19ng/ml) where healthy kids seem to measure, and I would tend to emphasize those early data levels to middle-aged data :) But maybe the DBP / GcMAF values vary quite a lot, even in healthy folk, based on environment, genes (etc). Maybe the synthesis varies too, even in health. I don't think we know enough about any of that just yet...
 

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If 25D can't be transported because of low levels of DBP, the low level of 25D measured will still be an indication of health risk because low DBP seems to be a health risk.

See;  http://www.foodconsumer.org/newsite/Nutrition/Vitamins/vitamin_d_binding_protein_pancreatic_cancer_0830120606.html

I was interested to see that 12-19 ng/ml is the range that healthy kids seems to measure. From various sources I came to the conclusion that 21ng/ml seemed to be about right. I recently saw an interesting bar chart showing the effect of supplementation on 25D levels which seemed to indicate that it was fairly easy for supplementation to raise 25D to 21 ng/ml but thereafter it was more difficult. That seemed perhaps to indicate that some feedback mechanism came into play at that level.

But when I said there was an optimum level, I meant that to apply to the individual.
In absence of knowing that level, an average level for a population seems an appropriate level to use.

I take your point though that that level may not be at all well defined. I have a friend who is a retired gastroenterologist, who got  his own 25D level tested, purely out of curiosity. According to him (and I don't know the figures), it was exceedingly low. Significantly he claims to be in perfect health at 62.

fibro



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http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/09/03/tuberculosis-vitamin-d-idINL6E8JUB6O20120903

I couldn't find this study in pubmed. I understand why vitamin d supplementation would "dampen down the body's inflammatory response" and why "inflammatory markers fell further and faster in patients receiving vitamin D," but I wonder why "Mycobacterium tuberculosis, the bacteria that cause TB, cleared from the phlegm coughed up from deep in the lungs faster in patients on vitamin D, taking an average of 23 days to become undetectable under the microscope compared to 36 days in those on placebo."

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FindingAnswers: perhaps because the Mycobacteria didn't go away, but just relocated into those warm, friendly, human cells to live out their years in comfort? :)

Fibro: wouldn't you expect the body's down-regulation to kick in at the top of the safe range? To stop the dose becoming unsafe?

It is tough to find data on untouched populations, especially these days. You really need to get away from all the physicians advising mothers that Vit D is good for their kids :X Part of the problem is that all the milk and milk powder shipped to under-developed countries has been Vit-D fortified since the 1950s. However, there was one study which caught my eye when I was first looking into defining an untouched level. It is:

"Vitamin D deficiency: a concern in premenopausal Bangladeshi women of two socio-economic groups in rural and urban region"

http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v56/n1/full/1601284a.html

It was well-done, with apparently little bias, on a group of people least likely to have been touched by the last half-decade of stupidity. Indeed, the authors commented: "Apparently, the main reasons for this situation are linked to traditional avoidance of sun exposure or lack of direct exposure to sunshine, diet failing to provide an adequate amount of vitamin D, and no use of supplementation."

Yes indeed, that insidious hidden supplementation in our food chain was not helping these poor folk :)

There are other studies, too. Please check out the MPKB, where Paul has catalogued quite a few:  click here for the MPKB article.

..Trevor..

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wouldn't you expect the body's down-regulation to kick in at the top of the safe range? To stop the dose becoming unsafe?

Absolutely.  21ng/ml and your 19ng/ml are in pretty good agreement for the top of the normal range.


Just saw this today:

Vitamin D supplements raise LDL cholesterol:

http://health.usnews.com/health-news/news/articles/2012/09/04/vitamin-d-supplements-wont-help-cholesterol-levels-study

Fibro

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Effect of Vitamin D3 Supplementation on Upper Respiratory Tract Infections in Healthy Adults

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1367547

Conclusion
  In this trial, monthly administration of 100 000 IU of vitamin D did not reduce the incidence or severity of URTIs in healthy adults.

:shock::?:shock::D:shock:

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I don't know how this news report went so off the rails. (there's an ad at the beginning).

http://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/video?playlistId=1.980886

Deb

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Are Vitamin D Levels and Cardiovascular Risk Related?
http://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/771643?src=cmemp




People with low levels of vitamin D have an increased risk of heart attack, of dying early on from cardiovascular disease, and this is an important message.

Nordestgaard stresses, however, that the findings don't prove cause and effect--while low vitamin-D levels may lead directly to heart disease and death, it's also possible that vitamin-D deficiency is a marker for poor health generally, he says.

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Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health launches vitamin D campaign

http://www.rcpch.ac.uk/news/rcpch-launches-vitamin-d-campaign

:shock::(:shock:

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C'mon Ron that site is certified by the HONcode of conduct and besides correlation is damn near the same as causation which means that ...

... Hold on isn' t this the bad news for Vitamin d thread ...?

I have a new slogan for the Royal Vitamin D charity fundraiser foundation folks on Theobald Lane.

"Vitamin D - It's like magic!!"

Thank goodness for the HONcode of conduct.

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Wow: Never seen them go this far before.

'People can only get a fraction (10%) of their recommended daily amount of vitamin D through food and very little from sunlight. So getting out in the sun more or eating more oily fish isn’t going to solve the problem.'

Can only get a fraction of the recommended amount through food and sunlight? Doesn't that imply that prior to the invention of supplements nobody in history ever had reached the recommended amount? Geez. Where is evolution when you need it?

'Lack of vitamin D is related to a plethora of serious illnesses in children and adults that could be prevented through relatively simple steps such as taking supplements.'

Doesn't that imply that prior to the invention of supplements every child and adult had a plethora of serious illnesses the whole of their lives?
Doesn't it imply that evolution doesn't work since we didn't evolve to produce more from sunlight? That creationism is correct, that a benevolent God is looking after us by leaving us short of Vitamin D... Let me run through that again.
 
 
Comment by Trevor: :) :) :)

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bongocongo wrote:
Doesn't that imply that prior to the invention of supplements every child and adult had a plethora of serious illnesses the whole of their lives?
Doesn't it imply that evolution doesn't work since we didn't evolve to produce more from sunlight?

Much as I disagree with the original comment on vitamin D, I don't think the implications you mention follow. Darwinian selection
a) is somewhat hampered by altruism etc in human societies &
b) only really operates on illnesses that reduce reproductive chances.
Given the late onset of the degenerative diseases they're talking about, and the relatively early age of reproduction humans had until very recently (in evolutionary time) it's not clear that evolutionary forces would operate (strongly?) to select against them. (Well, not to me, anyway :) )

And doesn't this argument apply just as well to the Marshall Pathogenesis: it's impossible for bacteria to exploit the VDR receptor to inhibit the immune response - mammals would have evolved a solution! We have more than an inkling that we haven't ;)

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But what about the other hominids that we evolved from? Presumably, they were similar to us and subject to evolution.

Deb

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My observation is de-volution and selection FOR the disease.

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It does seem that way...

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leroybrown wrote:
But what about the other hominids that we evolved from? Presumably, they were similar to us and subject to evolution.

I'm not sure we know when this mutation happened. Anyway, it's not the (a?) relevant mutation for vitamin D metabolism - I just gave it as an example.

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since age of reproduction seems to be a primary issue
let us set it at 15 (for the primipara - hoping that is correct term for age at first delivery)

then for various reasons, e.g. predation, lack of mineral balance in food supply, unavoidable pollutants; average age of male partner at death = 45 in pre-history;
perhaps a good comparison is the ratio 3:1 (expected lifespan of male/age of female at first reproduction) for looking at evolutionary pressure on our 'hairy cousins' or other mammals

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>>Much as I disagree with the original comment on vitamin D, I don't think the implications you mention follow.
It was a poorly conceived joke however I will carry on for the sake of it.

>>Darwinian selection
>>a) is somewhat hampered by altruism etc in human societies &
Sounds like Eugenics. Evolution also works at the group level. Indeed a human cannot survive alone (I mean as a mated pair). I'm with the camp that says that altruism doesn't exist as such. It's a matter of believing that evolution is robust vs falls apart by itself if we don't cooperate.

>>b) only really operates on illnesses that reduce reproductive chances.
Given the late onset of the degenerative diseases they're talking about, and the relatively early age of reproduction humans had until very recently (in evolutionary time) it's not clear that evolutionary forces would operate (strongly?) to select against them. (Well, not to me, anyway :) )

Being social animals we evolve as a group. Consider that humans evolved largely as family groups. Old members beyond their reproductive years were of great value, the example often given is of the oldster who remembers the last water hole to dry up 50 years ago. This would vary with the society of course. There again with chemical processes in the body supposedly occurring in the GHz range what is the difference between living for 40 years or 100? Not much. If the system is stable then it's stable unless pushed off by something powerful. The idea of spontaneous or programmed degeneration is as meaningless in humans as in crocodiles.

The proposition that we are teetering on a knife's edge of too little UV leaving us with a jillion diseases and too much UV leaving us with skin cancer is hard to reconcile with... anything.


>>And doesn't this argument apply just as well to the Marshall Pathogenesis: it's impossible for bacteria to exploit the VDR receptor to inhibit the immune response - mammals would have evolved a solution! We have more than an inkling that we haven't ;

No, the distinction being between competition between fit organisms vs organisms being grossly unadapted to their environment - evolution not working.

e.g. The antelope on the Serengeti may well die young but it does not spontaneously transform into a heap of bones due to a fragile evolutionary process. It's the Lion!

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Pgeek, evolution still operates after reproductive capability ends.  Paul Ewald (evolutionary biology prof) showed that having grandparents around to help with physical tasks (and to pass on tradition) is an advantage.  Early old age disability is an evolutionary disadvantage, as it reduces the numbers of able adults vs. the number of children.

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This is getting confusing.

Can anyone provide evidence for their claims and can we agree on some definitions of the things that we are talking about?

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>>Can anyone provide evidence for their claims and can we agree on some definitions of the things that we are talking about?

I think everything I said I paraphrased from these authors:
Charles Darwin
Richard Dawkins
Jared Diamond
Paul Ewald

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(oops, this is Chris posting from Karen's account ...)

It was a Paul Ewald article that helped me decide to do the MP, as he gave a rationale for expecting sarcoidosis to be caused by infection, based on statistics and evolution.

The article
http://www.isteve.com/infectious_causation_of_disease.pdf

The longer book
http://www.amazon.com/Evolution-Infectious-Disease-Paul-Ewald/dp/0195111397

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http://www.news-medical.net/news/20130104/High-vitamin-D-in-pregnancy-may-increase-food-allergy-risk-in-children.aspx

Extract

They found that women in the highest quartile for vitamin D during pregnancy (32.20-60.80 ng/mL) were a significant 3.66-fold more likely to have a child who developed food allergy during their second year of life than those in the bottom quartile (6.13-14.39 ng/mL), following adjustment for various confounders including family atopy history, cotinine level in pregnancy, and vitamin D supplementation in first year of life.

Children of mothers in the highest quartile for vitamin D status in pregnancy also had a significant 1.91-fold increased risk for food allergy within the first 2 years of life compared with children of mothers in the bottom quartile for vitamin D, as well as a 1.59-fold increased risk for having food-specific IgE antibodies.

Children with the highest levels of vitamin D (17.40-40.10 ng/mL) in their cord blood at birth also had a significant 4.65-fold increased risk for developing food allergy in the second year of life compared with children with the lowest levels (1.50-6.98 ng/mL).

Lehmann and team suggest that an inhibition of regulatory T cell numbers at birth associated with high levels of vitamin D in the blood may explain the increased risk for food allergy seen in these children.

fibro

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uh oh... Better sell the "D Drops" stock.

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A new double-blinded study of Vit-D supplementation in osteoarthritis shows no benefit, either in reduced pain or reduced joint damage.

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1556148

Interesting that this paper points us to two older studies (ref 12,13) showing that Osteoarthritis leads to low levels of 25-D in the blood, and therefore is a Th1 disease, just like Rheumatoid Arthritis :)
 

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Saw that one reported on the local news show last night. Looks like that "cat is out of the bag".

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Markt9452 wrote:
Saw that one reported on the local news show last night. Looks like that "cat is out of the bag".


I make sure I watch that particular section on the local London news - the BS stories they follow up on can boggle the mind and they do have a lot of "D is the cure all"

That particular story cheered me up....

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High 1.25D and low 25D associated with poorest bone health:

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/early/2013/02/04/jc.2012-2772.abstract

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Thanks for that link Nyima.
... [high] serum 1,25(OH)2D is associated with higher bone turnover and poorer bone health ...

I think we can explain...
High levels of active 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D despite low levels of the 25-hydroxyvitamin D precursor: implications of dysregulated vitamin D for diagnosis and treatment of chronic disease

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I came across this article in MEDSCAPE that purports to show that because low 25D is measured in patients with RA, that therefore, low 25D causes, or at least contributes to, RA. 

I noted with interest that they did not measure, nor even talk about 1, 25D.

No further comment is necessary from me.  :shock::D:P:X

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http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/25/17091299-vitamin-d-calcium-may-not-curb-older-womens-risk-for-broken-bones?lite

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Jermack, regarding the link to the article you mention on vit. D and Calcium supplementation for bones, the last paragraph(s) of the article was the most telling.....

Quote: [Marion Nestle, a nutrition researcher from New York University who coauthored a commentary published alongside the recommendations in the Annals of Internal Medicine, said that good studies on vitamin D are hard to do, and any end to the debate over whether to take supplements or not is a long way off.

"These studies are so difficult to do and to interpret that scientific consensus seems impossible to achieve, especially in situations where entire organizations are devoted to convincing people to take high-dose vitamin D," she wrote in an email to Reuters Health.]

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Yes, don't we have that experience!

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The interests of the pharmaceutical industry are very large and they will find "good":X results to keep using vitD.

Last edited on Tue Feb 26th, 2013 06:41 by Gerard

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Hi Joyful - I'm getting lost among the various sites right now . . . If you can direct me to the best site for posting, I'd appreciate it. Sallie sent me a link, but it didn't work with my computer for some reason. Guess I should stick to this site (?)

I believe it was you who had posted a request for us to look at a 23-pg article recently published. I found it very interesting, though a bit taxing on my non-science-oriented brain! Started to set up the printer for it, discovered I have to go buy more printer ink - then my laptop ran out of power & all was lost to a black screen. . . grrrr! Don't want to lose the article. Could you please post its title again?

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sorry Patsy-Ann, Joyful is taking a holiday, will likely be back to answer queries in April

Although you can see your posts in this vitamin D bad news thread when you are not logged in, you need to be logged in for your link here to work
your progress thread in the Getting Started forum, the last reply you made to it was in June.
PatsyAnn's Progress

Alternatively you can right click on your own name at left, then click on (Topics) to get the list of topics you started. Your progress thread can always be found there
best
Sallie


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Interesting...

http://jcp.bmj.com/content/early/2013/02/28/jclinpath-2012-201301.short

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Hypovitaminosis D may be the consequence rather than cause of chronic inflammatory diseases.

Good find...

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Vitamin D in pregnancy

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How pathetic that the researchers have to be apologetic about their finding and feel they had to give a boost to vitamin D supplementation although nothing to do with their study. Fear seems to be as rife in science as it is in business.

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I can't help but comment in response to the title of this thread that in Australia at least, every week seems to bring a new celebrity, a new newspaper / TV / radio segment, new commercial endorsing Vitamin D.  Sigh!

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Well, yes, but the topic is "many see the glass as half full." You are telling us about the ones that can't even see :) :) :) Maybe they will figure out to open their eyes someday.

Like the Oz doctor who wrote me today that I "seemed to have disappeared off the radar."  He needs a bigger antenna, perhaps :) :) :)
 

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Yes, you are right Dr Marshall.

Forgive me, rather neuro-herxy today (and so feeling depressed/dismayed/discouraged).

And hey, if people are going to take Kerri-Anne Kennelly's advice on medical issues - be it on their own heads!!! ;)

Last edited on Fri Mar 22nd, 2013 22:45 by k

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Don't be downcast. Look at it this way. At some point in the future, the harm done by Vitamin D supplementation to our society, to a great portion of the developed World, will be recognized. There will be countries, such as Russia, who have truly competent scientists -- countries which have resisted this 'sliver bullet'. And the contrast between them and us will make the mistake glaringly obvious.

So what will be the result? In my opinion, it will be the end of evidence based medicine. This fad (EBM) that started halfway through my career - the delusion that one can figure out what a drug or therapy is doing merely by observing, not needing any understanding. EBM has always been on thin ice, but the Vitamin D fiasco should put the final nail in its coffin. Mankind cannot continue to waste generations to this concept that Medicine knows everything about the human body, and can second guess what metabolites, hormones, etc, need to be 'replaced' when the body becomes ill.

You may have noticed that I have been honored by both the Brussels and Moscow based organizations for Predictive and Preventive medicine. What these groups are studying is exactly that. How can we turn the current palliative medical paradigm into something which delivers affordable health care for the 21st century... So please don't despair...
 

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Dr. Marshall,
Does the turn of focus to Russia mean the direct approach to change medicine in the US has excessively bogged down and change will have to come from outside scientists (such as from Russia)? It kind of sounded like that from "high frustration level vibes" after your last DC trip. Did the FDA PO process hit a wall or is it just typical red tape delay?

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Low Vitamin D, Later CVD: Not True, in Diabetes Study
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/781876?src=nl_topic&uac=147090FY

Titta


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Titta,

A password is required?

Sherry

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Low Vitamin D, Later CVD: Not True, in Diabetes StudyMarlene Busko
Apr 03, 2013
     
      Contrary to what prior research suggests, vitamin-D deficiency did not predict early signs of cardiovascular disease in an observational study of patients with type 1 diabetes.
      The study, based on data from around 1200 participants from the Diabetes Control and Complications Trial /Epidemiology of Diabetes Interventions and Complications (DCCT/EDIC), was published online March 25 in Diabetes Care.
      In fact, patients in their 30s with type 1 diabetes and a vitamin-D deficiency tended to have a lower — not higher — risk for coronary artery calcium (CAC) 10 years later, when they were in their 40s. In addition, plasma levels of 3 vitamin-D metabolites were not associated with carotid intima media thickness (IMT).
      These findings "should be viewed with caution," the authors write. "We're not ready to accept these results as definitive, but they're important to publish," lead author Michael C. Sachs, PhD, from the University of Washington, Seattle, told Medscape Medical News. "The bottom line is…that more research is needed to determine how cardiovascular disease, specifically coronary artery disease, develops over time."
      Asked to comment on the study, JoAnn E. Manson, MD, from Brigham and Women's Hospital, Boston, Massachusetts, and director of the Vitamin D and Omega-3 Trial (VITAL), had a slightly different take on the prior work. She told Medscape Medical News in an e-mail that the new findings "aren't surprising, because the research studies to date have been inconsistent and inconclusive.
      "The enthusiasm for high-dose vitamin-D supplementation is far outpacing the scientific evidence…[and] it remains far from conclusive that higher intake of vitamin D or higher blood levels of vitamin D will prevent heart disease, cancer, or other chronic illnesses," she added. Her large, randomized trial VITAL should help clarify the effect of vitamin D on cardiovascular disease; results are not expected until 2016 or 2017, however.
      Could Findings Be Due to Youth of Trial Participants?
      Patients with type 1 diabetes often have premature atherosclerosis, and some studies have suggested that the atherosclerosis may be partly due to impaired vitamin-D metabolism, Dr. Sachs and colleagues write.
      They analyzed plasma samples obtained around 1992, from 1193 participants in the DCCT — about equal numbers of men and women who had had type 1 diabetes about 7.5 years and had a mean age of 32 years.
      They determined plasma levels of 3 vitamin-D metabolites: 25-hydroxyvitamin D, a measure of vitamin-D intake; 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D, a measure of vitamin-D activity; and 24,25-dihydroxyvitamin, a measure of vitamin-D turnover.
      About 10 years after these blood tests, the participants underwent computed tomography imaging to measure CAC.
      They also had B-mode ultrasonography scans in 1994 and again about 6 years later to measure changes in internal and common carotid artery IMT.
      Even after adjustment for multiple confounders, there was no link between levels of vitamin-D metabolites and subsequent signs of subclinical cardiovascular disease.
      According to Dr. Sachs, these conflicting results could be due to the current study population being young and relatively healthy, apart from their type 1 diabetes. So they were perhaps not old enough to manifest atherosclerosis, he suggested.
      This study was supported by grants from the National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases (NIDDK). The authors have disclosed no relevant financial relationships.
      Diabetes Care. Published online March 25, 2013. Abstract







      http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/early/2013/03/20/dc12-2020.abstract

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      Don't you just love it when all these authors try to explain away results they don't expect or don't like.....

      Quote: "According to Dr. Sachs, these conflicting results could be due to the current study population being young and relatively healthy, apart from their type 1 diabetes. So they were perhaps not old enough to manifest atherosclerosis, he suggested."

      ChrisMavo
      Member


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      Yeah, right!  A member of our family just had a heart attack at 42 ... so there goes the "too young" argument right out the window. 

      When will it dawn on mainstream medicine that this whole vitamin D supplementation craze is just that ... CRAZY????

      Good health,
      Chris

      Bane
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      Supplementation with High Doses of Vitamin D to Subjects without Vitamin D Deficiency May Have Negative Effects: Pooled Data from Four Intervention Trials in Tromsø.

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23577264

      Data were pooled from four randomized clinical trials with vitamin D performed in Tromsø with weight reduction, insulin sensitivity, bone density, and depression scores as endpoints. Serum lipids, glycated hemoglobin (HbA1c), and high sensitivity C-Reactive Protein, (HS-CRP) were measured at baseline and after 6-12 months of supplementation with vitamin D 20 000 IU-40 000 IU per week versus placebo. A total of 928 subjects who completed the interventions were included. At baseline the mean serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D (25(OH)D) level in those given vitamin D was 55.9 (20.9) nmol/L and the mean increase was 82.4 (40.1) nmol/L. Compared with the placebo group there was in the vitamin D group at the end of the studies a slight, but significant, increase in HbA1c of 0.04%, an increase in HS-CRP of 0.07 mg/L in those with serum 25(OH)D < 50 nmol/L, and in those with low baseline HDL-C and serum 25(OH)D < 50 nmol/L a slight decrease serum HDL-C of 0.08 mmol/L (P < 0.05). No serious side-effects were seen. In conclusion, in subjects without vitamin D deficiency, there is no improvement in serum lipids, HbA1c, or HS-CRP with high dose vitamin D supplementation. If anything, the effect is negative.

      Ron
      Foundation Staff


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      Vitamin D supplementation in elderly or postmenopausal women: a 2013 update of the 2008 recommendations from the European Society for Clinical and Economic Aspects of Osteoporosis and Osteoarthritis (ESCEO)

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23320612

      "The ESCEO recommends that 50 nmol/L (i.e. 20 ng/mL) should be the minimal serum 25-(OH)D concentration"

      "supplementation is recommended at 800 to 1000 IU/day"

      "Vitamin D supplementation is safe up to 10,000 IU/day"

      "in fragile elderly subjects [...] the ESCEO recommends a minimal serum 25-(OH)D level of 75 nmol/L (i.e. 30 ng/mL)"

      :shock::X:shock::X:shock:

      leroybrown
      ...


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      Whoops - looks like they didn't measure 1,25D!

      PoochyMama
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      Article on new guidelines

      fibro
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      25D: The higher the better shown to be a misconception.

      Both high and low levels of 25D associated with increased morbidity:
      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130430131623.htm

      fibro
      inactive member
       

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      Vitamin D supplementation has no effect on bone mineralisation.

      http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2013-05/aaop-pim042613.php

      Although supplementation had no effect on bone mineralisation they conclude with bizarre logic that "Preterm infants may need 800 IU of vitamin D3 per day"!

      Fibro

      leroybrown
      ...


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      What an odd study. No effect on bone mineralization - but let's do it again!

      Deb

      bongocongo
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      1) no effect - The actual finding
      2) but we need larger studies - Please send more work my way
      3) keep supplementing - Please do not destroy my career

      so it goes

      GillyB
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      This is frustrating indeed.  Buried in the story ==> no benefit.  What a bunch of chumps.

      stuckpac
      Health Professional
       

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      Also buried at the end of the report:

      "Excess vitamin D for at least one month can cause decreased muscle tone, decreased appetite, irritability and constipation, among other problems." Oops...

      Let's just do another study to see if we can in some way prove that Vit. D supplementation really helps......something.

      fibro
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      Raising low Vitamin D levels in COPD does not improve the condition:

      http://pakobserver.net/detailnews.asp?id=206341

      Arguable of course, from recent research, that the 25D level was raised far too high to be therapeutic in any event but more likely that low 25D levels were the result of disease as usual.

      Fibro

      Bane
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      Vitamin D: More May Not Be Better; Benefits in Healthy Adults Wear Off at Higher Doses, Research Suggests

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130501192929.htm

      "Above 21 nanograms per milliliters, the data suggest that the protective effect appears to wear off"

      Sallie Q
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      yay Bane
      this is just about what TM has been saying ....(at the end stage of MP, aim to keep D25 ~20 ng/ml)

      "When they looked at deaths from all causes and cardiovascular disease specifically, those with blood levels of 21 nanograms per milliliter of 25-Hydroxyvitamin D -- at the top of the range that the IOM considers "adequate" and at the low end of "normal" -- cut their risk of death in half."

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130501192929.htm 
      looks like a good one to take to the reluctant doctor







      Jigsaw
      Research Team


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      Effects of vitamin D supplements on bone mineral density: a systematic review and meta-analysis : The Lancet
      Interpretation
      Continuing widespread use of vitamin D for osteoporosis prevention in community-dwelling adults without specific risk factors for vitamin D deficiency seems to be inappropriate.

      Association of maternal vitamin D status during pregnancy with bone-mineral content in offspring: a prospective cohort study : The Lancet
      ConclusionsWe found no relevant association between maternal vitamin D status in pregnancy and offspring BMC in late childhood.


      Last edited on Sun Oct 13th, 2013 18:14 by Jigsaw

      GillyB
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      Two amazing finds, Jigsaw.  I'm going to wave that first one around like a flag anytime anyone gives me guff about how my bones are going to melt out from under me with this radical MP thing.

      Rico
      Support Team
       

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      Don't know who this person is, but he sure is anti Vitamin D !!

      http://thepeopleschemist.com/stinky-sulfur-award-unapproved-drug-disguised-vitamin/

      http://www.newswithviews.com/Ellison/shane158.htm

      Cynthia S
      Foundation Staff


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      I'm afraid he is no better than the Vit D council he is so unhappy with.  He wants you to get lots of sunshine and eat lots of high D foods.  Like this is better because it is natural.  Heck, hemlock is natural too.

      Old doctor's tales will be with us for a very long time, there is so much misinformation out there and it so completely believed.

      Cynthia

      GillyB
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      You know, I give him some credit: he understands the need for inflammation for immune system success.

      And if a person were NOT infected with intracellular pathogens, if such a person exists somewhere, it would be good advice.

      EDIT: Maybe I'll contact him, and introduce him to the MP, and see what his reaction is.

      Last edited on Tue Oct 15th, 2013 03:17 by GillyB

      NickBowler
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      He mentions Dr. Marshall at the bottom of the article so he already is aware.

      Cynthia S
      Foundation Staff


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      Well, he picks and chooses for support of his form of promotion.  I think in that respect, he is no different than DR. Cannell.  In stead of selling vit D, he is selling his book, Over-The-Counter Natural Cures .  If eating lots of fish and going out in the sun is part of his Natural Cures, he is NOT going to be receptive to the idea that vitamin D is not a vitamin.

      Cynthia

      Rico
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      Although he may not necessarily have it all right, he's several steps ahead of the general consensus on Vitamin D, IMO. That in itself has to be recognized as a huge step forward.

      Would be interested in knowing what feedback you get, Gilly.

      seanlane
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      Got a blood test done....the nurse called frantically a few times and said my 25D was really low...that I needed to start taking several thousand IU's a day immediately!....oh my gosh!
      I was going to shut her down with my awesome insight into Vitamin D metabolism....but... she was kind of cute....sooooooooo I thought I might ask her out for lunch instead. I'll keep you posted (on the nurse...not the Vitamin D)

      Sean

      Last edited on Tue Oct 15th, 2013 20:04 by seanlane

      Limburg
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      Good appetite Sean ;)

      GillyB
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      Sean, YOU DOG!  Nice play, well played indeed.

      Paisleykilt
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      Just don't have salmon, eggs, and caviar for lunch, Sean! ;) :P

      -Glad somebody here has a semblance of a social life!! :D

      seanlane
      Member


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      Oh yes...of course!! We will be strictly eating only oysters marinated in cod liver oil....maybe with a side of bacon.
      I got it man...I got this stuff

      Paisleykilt
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      -Sounds yummy! (I mean the nurse, not the food...)

      Have fun! :cool:

      DawnE
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      I make my own Almond Milk. Soak 1 cup raw unsalted almonds in 2-3 cups water overnight. Drain and rinse. Put the almonds in your blender with 3 cups distilled water, puree as fine as you can. Drain through cheese cloth. Mix with more distilled water to taste. You can add sweetener if you'd like.

      I also dry the left over almond pulp and grind it into a flour and make muffins or crackers or something with it.

      Yummy

      DawnE
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      Hi Lydia, I see where you've asked the manufacturers to stop putting vitamin D in their almond milk. This is just quick note to let you know that I make my own almond milk and it is very easy.

      Just soak 1 cup of almonds overnight in 2 - 3 cups distilled water. Drain and than blend the almonds with fresh distilled water until it's as smooth as you can get it.

      Than strain it through some cheesecloth. One cup of almonds will make about a quart or so. I dry the pulp and grind it up like flour and make crackers out of it.

      The milk is really good, you can add some stevia to sweeten it a bit, or maybe some vanilla for more flavoring.

      jasmine
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      At my annual physical last week, my doctor "nailed" me about my low Vit. D level, which has been consistently at 4 for the last few years.

      He has been recommending 1000 mg supplementation daily since August 2006. At that time, I took it for 8 months (pre-MP), resulting in my auto-immune health issues escalating and my weight dropping to less that 90 lbs.

      It was his last opportunity to push Vitamin D at me, since he is retiring soon. So, I said "You and I know the truth about Vitamin D--that it's a steroid and there are controversial studies that question it's value in fighting osteoporosis. You can try to sell me this drug, but I'm not buying it. My great-grandmother lived to be nearly 110 (she passed 1 day before her 110th birthday in 1987). She was very healthy, never took Vitamin D supplements and lived in her own home until she was 105."

      That being said, I am wondering, as "The People's Chemist" mentions above, if I should eat more foods naturally containing Vitamin D, like eggs, salmon and avocados, to bring my level up closer to 20. I am quite photo-sensitive, both in eyes and skin, and wonder if maybe a little higher D level might ease that a bit. Does anyone have advice on this?

      Many thanks and well wishes, Jasmine

      Sallie Q
      Support Team


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      getting a bit off topic here, towards the Lifestyles forum ;)
      so I moved my response to your progress thread.

      DNStog
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      Another strike against Vitamin D industry by research results.

      Vitamin D does not increase calcium absorption in young women.

      http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jbmr.2121/abstract

      Last edited on Thu Oct 31st, 2013 19:11 by DNStog

      Prof Trevor Marshall
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      We posted at the same time, Donna! Here is the link to the calcium absorption topic I started:

      http://www.marshallprotocol.com/forum39/15684.html

      ..trevor..

      DNStog
      member


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      Trevor...how about this 2012 study results from the same scientist disproving vitamin D value in absorption of calcium in older women?

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22855333

      :-). Donna

      fibro
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      French study confirms that low 25D is a marker of ill health and that except for a slight incresed survival effect in the elderly, supplementation is ineffectual in a wide variety of diseases.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-25234313

      http://www.thelancet.com/journals/landia/article/PIIS2213-8587(13)70165-7/abstract

      Abstract:

      Vitamin D status and ill health: a systematic review
      Prof Philippe Autier MD a b , Prof Mathieu Boniol PhD a b, Cécile Pizot MSc a, Prof Patrick Mullie PhD a c
      Summary
      Low serum concentrations of 25-hydroxyvitamin D (25[OH]D) have been associated with many non-skeletal disorders. However, whether low 25(OH)D is the cause or result of ill health is not known. We did a systematic search of prospective and intervention studies that assessed the effect of 25(OH)D concentrations on non-skeletal health outcomes in individuals aged 18 years or older. We identified 290 prospective cohort studies (279 on disease occurrence or mortality, and 11 on cancer characteristics or survival), and 172 randomised trials of major health outcomes and of physiological parameters related to disease risk or inflammatory status. Investigators of most prospective studies reported moderate to strong inverse associations between 25(OH)D concentrations and cardiovascular diseases, serum lipid concentrations, inflammation, glucose metabolism disorders, weight gain, infectious diseases, multiple sclerosis, mood disorders, declining cognitive function, impaired physical functioning, and all-cause mortality. High 25(OH)D concentrations were not associated with a lower risk of cancer, except colorectal cancer. Results from intervention studies did not show an effect of vitamin D supplementation on disease occurrence, including colorectal cancer. In 34 intervention studies including 2805 individuals with mean 25(OH)D concentration lower than 50 nmol/L at baseline supplementation with 50 μg per day or more did not show better results. Supplementation in elderly people (mainly women) with 20 μg vitamin D per day seemed to slightly reduce all-cause mortality. The discrepancy between observational and intervention studies suggests that low 25(OH)D is a marker of ill health. Inflammatory processes involved in disease occurrence and clinical course would reduce 25(OH)D, which would explain why low vitamin D status is reported in a wide range of disorders. In elderly people, restoration of vitamin D deficits due to ageing and lifestyle changes induced by ill health could explain why low-dose supplementation leads to slight gains in survival.

      Lottis
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      Yes, this same article was mentioned in the Swedish public radio science program today, and they even put up a referens to the study on the radio webpage, so I am very happy and grateful today that this is finally taken into consideration. :)

      Trudy.Heil_NP
      Health Professional


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      Vitamin D Supplements Won't Help Prevent Disease: Review
      Low levels of 'sunshine vitamin' could be a sign of illness, rather than a cause, studies suggest

      http://consumer.healthday.com/senior-citizen-information-31/misc-aging-news-10/vitamin-d-may-not-help-prevent-disease-682815.html

      The current review, published online Dec. 6 in The Lancet Diabetes & Endocrinology:

      http://www.thelancet.com/journals/landia/article/PIIS2213-8587(13)70165-7/abstract

      This just really gives me some hope that TPTB are coming around....:cool:

      Trudy

      Rico
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      Being discussed here ...

      http://marshallprotocol.com/forum39/15762.html

      GillyB
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      I can't find access to the actual study, but this is a blurb about it?

      Vitamin D Supplements Don't Help Your Health: Review

      http://www.philly.com/philly/health/HealthDay684171_20140124_Vitamin_D_Supplements_Don_t_Help_Your_Health__Review.html

      The study is in the Lancet Endocrine journal.

      EDIT: Here it is:
      http://www.thelancet.com/journals/landia/article/PIIS2213-8587(13)70212-2/fulltext

      Joyful
      Foundation Staff


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      From the review Gilly posted a link to:
      Previous research has shown that vitamin D deficiency is associated with poor health and early death. But recent evidence suggests that low levels of vitamin D are a result, not a cause, of poor health, according to a journal news release.
      Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/health/HealthDay684171_20140124_Vitamin_D_Supplements_Don_t_Help_Your_Health__Review.html#j5lelXodwWFPTX8g.99Previous research has shown that viatmin D deficiency is associated with poor health and early death. But recent evidence suggests that low levels of vitamin D are a result, not a cause, of poor health, according to a journel news release.
      Previous research has shown that vitamin D deficiency is associated with poor health and early death. But recent evidence suggests that low levels of vitamin D are a result, not a cause, of poor health, according to a journal news release.
      Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/health/HealthDay684171_20140124_Vitamin_D_Supplements_Don_t_Help_Your_Health__Review.html#jVdDpH0xxlr2ckyC.99Previous research has shown that vitamin D deficiency is associated with poor health and early death. But recent evidence suggests that low levels of vitamin D are a result, not a cause, of poor health, according to a journal news release.
      Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/health/HealthDay684171_20140124_Vitamin_D_Supplements_Don_t_Help_Your_Health__Review.html#jVdDpH0xxlr2ckyC.99Previous research has shown that vitamin D deficiency is associated with poor health and early death. But recent evidence suggests that low levels of vitamin D are a result, not a cause, of poor health, according to a journal news release.
      Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/health/HealthDay684171_20140124_Vitamin_D_Supplements_Don_t_Help_Your_Health__Review.html#j5lelXodwWFPTX8g.99

      ChrisMavo
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      :D:D:D Maybe, just maybe the message is starting to get through!!!

      Rico
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      New research suggests that vitamin D deficiency is associated with the development of chronic widespread pain

      http://arma.uk.net/vitamin-d-deficiency-and-chronic-pain/

      NickBowler
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      'Just another marker':

      http://circgenetics.ahajournals.org/content/early/2014/07/27/CIRCGENETICS.113.000416.abstract

      scooker48
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      Good find, Nick.

      "...and question a role for vitamin D supplementation in the prevention of cardiovascular disease. "

      Bane
      Research Team


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      Prenatal vitamin D3 supplementation suppresses LL-37 peptide expression in ex vivo activated neonatal macrophages but not their killing capacity.

      http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=9314541&fileId=S0007114514001512

      Vitamin D
       has regulatory effects on innate immunity. In the present study, we aimed to assess the effect of prenatal vitamin D3 (vitD3) supplementation on neonatal innate immunity in a randomised, placebo-controlled trial by evaluating cathelicidin (LL-37) expression and the killing capacity of macrophages. Healthy pregnant women (n 129) attending a clinic in Dhaka were randomised to receive either a weekly oral dose of 0·875 mg vitD3 or placebo starting from 26 weeks of gestation up to delivery. Serum, plasma and monocyte-derived macrophages (MDM) were obtained from the cord blood. 25-Hydroxyvitamin D (25(OH)D) concentration was measured in serum. MDM were stimulated with or without Toll-like-receptor 4 ligand (TLR4L). Innateimmune function was assessed by measuring LL-37 peptide levels in the culture supernatant of MDM by ELISA, LL-37 transcript levels by quantitative PCR, and ex vivo bactericidal capacity of MDM. vitD3 supplementation did not increase LL-37 peptide levels in plasma or in the extracellular fluid of macrophages with or without TLR4L induction. However, stimulated intracellular LL-37 expression (ratio of stimulated:unstimulated MDM) was significantly reduced in the vitamin D group v. placebo (P= 0·02). Multivariate-adjusted analyses showed that intracellular LL-37 peptide concentration from stimulated MDM was inversely associated with 25(OH)D concentration in serum (P= 0·03). TLR4L stimulation increased the bactericidal capacity of MDM compared with the unstimulated ones (P= 0·01); however, there was no difference in killing capacity between the two groups. A weekly dose of 0·875 mg vitD3 to healthy pregnant women suppressed the intracellular LL-37 peptide stores of activated macrophages, but did not significantly affect the ex vivo bactericidal capacity of cord blood MDM.


      ----------------------

      0·875 = 35000 IU

      Last edited on Tue Aug 5th, 2014 12:33 by Bane

      Prof Trevor Marshall
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      Nice find :) I guess they are going to have to think it out again...

      be-well
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      http://www.momentummagazineonline.com/the-ebers-effect-unraveling-the-ms-and-vitamin-d-connection/#sthash.NoE0aKav.dpufDr.

      The above reference focuses upon the work of a celebrated canadian Neurologist, often interviewed and consulted by popular media and clinical fellows worldwide regarding the relationship between Vitamin D and Multiple Sclerosis. His speciality is MS.  He continues to present a conflicting analysis of his own studies (and comparative data) 'over subsequent decades', in presenting the case for supplementation, while recommending Vitamin D with confidence to both 'deficient' and non 'deficient' groups.

       “For 3 million years humans were naked on the plains of Africa, and plenty of vitamin D was made in the skin from sunlight.” As humans migrated northward, they became deficient in vitamin D, which led to evolutionary changes toward lighter skin. “The frequency of MS increases with distance from the equator,” he continues, “suggesting that one risk factor may be vitamin D, which is only synthesized in the body when sunlight is of sufficient strength.” -

      No trees, foliage, caves or moonlit nights I guess. And the big one, a gigantic error by nature itself for homo sapiens ?

      I struggle to understand how someone who clearly works passionately and devotedly to his subject, studied 1000 MS patients taking no medications over a twenty year period, found no evidence of disparity in active metabolite dysregulation - yet did note the frequency of relapses in this patient group compared to those taking prescribed immunosuppressives. 

      When I asked him to describe in brief correspondence, the Sarcoid metabolism in relation to Vitamin D synthesis, many of us here would be impressed with his response. So how hard can it be to note the correlation with other chronic diseases and this metabolic marker 'blip.

      Markt9452
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      $15,000 prize to be used at the recipient's discretion
      Complimentary registration for the latest American Academy of Neurology Annual Meeting
      Reimbursement for attending the latest Annual Meeting
      travel and two days' meals and lodging expenses
      Recognition at the AAN Awards
      Luncheon at the latest Annual Meeting

      http://www.nationalmssociety.org/For-Professionals/Researchers/Society-Funding/Special-Awards-and-Prizes-(1)/Speical-Awards-and-Prizes

      The Ebers group in Oxford is studying in detail the single gene that in previous studies has consistently been correlated with occurrences of multiple sclerosis using a large database of DNA from thousands of families with MS. They have recently published results showing evidence that it is a combination of genetic and environmental factors that can cause MS.

      http://www.ox.ac.uk/international/oxford_around_the_globe/north_and_central_america_the_caribbean/canada_.html

      Last edited on Fri Sep 5th, 2014 06:43 by Markt9452

      be-well
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      "Dr. Ebers’ group discovered that people who have a genetic deficiency of an enzyme called 1,25-alpha-hydroxylase, which converts vitamin D to the active form, were more likely to develop MS." -

      This source has to be one of the most frustrating for people around the world with chronic diseases and doctors like Dr Greg Blaney who over ten years ago discovered the two inflammatory markers 25d and 1,25 as a reliable guide of presence and severity of disease.

      Ebers states that his findings remain effectively unsubstantiated yet he does not advise caution for anyone going for the higher doses. 



      Prof Trevor Marshall
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      Prof Ebbers was the chairman of the Glasgow 'Vitamin D and MS summit', and he wound up the conference giving us an earful of this "plains of Africa" nonsense.  I challenged him on two things:

      1. How does he know that exactly 4000 Units was the daily daily dose received by early man (perhaps they wore fragmentary clothing?), and

      2. How does he know that there have been no changes to the genes which determine how our bodies use Vitamin D since the plains of Africa.

      He responded by saying "everybody knows you Americans are Evolution Deniers" and that was that...

      Not a nice man at all, and I suspect too mean for his fellow Oxford Dons to discipline.

      ..Trevor..
       

      be-well
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      Yes indeed, not a friendly man at all. But he did mumble something about the possibility that your hypothesis is spot on Dr Marshall, but to a much smaller audience than Glasgow!

      The reason I posted this is in the hope of empowering the counter arguments for this particular individual's 'findings' especially in view of the fact that Vitamin D3 may well soon be added to more food groups globally. And also, recently, some clinicians have been told to relax the necessity for the 1,25d blood sample to be frozen prior to analysis

      Last edited on Wed Sep 10th, 2014 08:27 by be-well

      Prof Trevor Marshall
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      New study in The Lancet concluding that low levels of 25-D in the blood are not the cause of Diabetes-II:

      http://www.thelancet.com/journals/landia/article/PIIS2213-8587%2814%2970184-6/abstract

      An explanatory article is at : http://goo.gl/vEuFEo

      seanlane
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      http://www.everydayhealth.com/news/gene-study-finds-no-proof-vitamin-d-guards-against-type-2-diabetes/?xid=aol_eh-news_20_20140929_&aolcat=HLT&icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl13%7Csec3_lnk4%26pLid%3D540010

      scooker48
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      http://www.gainesville.com/article/20141014/COLUMNISTS/141019856/-1/news?Title=Vitamin-D-testing-needs-to-be-more-thorough

      Oversimplified and probably not totally accurate.  But at least it is hinting at the truth...


      Joyful
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      Starts out strong but then misses it...
      Your lab reveals a level of “1,25 D” of 60, and a “25 D” level of 20. Hopefully, the units are the same.
      25D is in ng/ml
      1,25D is in pg/ml (much, much smaller)

      So all the following ratio making is off by a factor of 1000. :?

      The reason why the 1,25D is so much less in the bloodstream is that it is made on an "as needed" basis in the cells.


      Last edited on Tue Oct 14th, 2014 20:13 by Joyful

      PGA Terry
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      Dr Mercola interviews a doctor who does not advocate oral vitamin D. In fact she says she hasn't swallowed a vit. D supplement in 5 years!

      She goes on to talk about the "science" backing her decision not to supplement but more astonishing is that Dr. Mercola seems to agree with her!

      http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/10/19/cholesterol-sulfate.aspx

      Cynthia S
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      Well, according to her, we must all have blood cells that are falling apart.  It is typical micromanaging of our chemistry that alternative doctors want to do.

      After 50 years of being immersed in that kind of thinking, I still am amazed at what the body can do for itself if you just keep the microbiota  on the run.

      Cynthia

      Sallie Q
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      Cynthia S wrote: Well, according to her, we must all have blood cells that are falling apart. .....

      but only if we ingest processed foods and GE crops ;)

      Joyful
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      I am increasingly suspicious of food eaten from restaurants.
      Even when it's fresh and easy foods, I always feel a bit "off" afterwards.

      Remember when we ate meals at home all the time--except when it was at Grandma's house?

      Sallie Q
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      come visit, Joyful
      i'm blessed with a great reliable local
      and know where to find a couple of safe eateries when 'commuting' across the state :cool:

      Joyful
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      Thanks for the invite! :)

      Sallie Q
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      Mercola may be a bit too slow on the uptake re v.D
      but there is hope
      ...already has come out on GMO
      http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/10/14/regenerative-agriculture.aspx

      Cairo123
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      Mercola has been preaching against GMOs for a long time.

      Prof Trevor Marshall
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      BMJ (the prestigious British Medical Journal) has published a Swedish study which found that the risk of dying was doubled for women who drank three or more glasses of milk a day, and no protection from fractures -- in fact an increase --  was observed:

      http://www.bmj.com/content/349/bmj.g6015

      After reciting that milk is rich in vitamin D, and hence good for you, the authors propose a hypothesis based on D-galactose as doing the harm. Clearly they have not Googled for "Vitamin D harmful", as the top hit there is this article:

      http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/260147.php

      Sigh...

      ..Trevor..
       

      Linda J
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      First thing I did when I read the article (found it on Monday before it was posted here) was to jump on the internet and check to see if Sweden fortifies their milk with vitamin D. And of course, yes, they do.

      Prof Trevor Marshall
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      Hard to believe, but in Medpage Today I read:
      "Vitamin D is everyone's favorite supplement, but it's getting no love from the authors of a recent analysis. No association was found between vitamin D and a lowered blood pressure, found a large meta-analysis, led by Miles Witham, PhD, from the University of Dundee in Scotland.

      The findings received widespread media coverage, and some took the opportunity to call for an end to widespread vitamin D supplementation.

      David Agus, MD, for example, was asked by Charlie Rose on CBS This Morning if we need vitamin D. "The answer is no," said Agus. "More and more people are taking it -- it's the second most taken vitamin in the country, behind multivitamins."

      Agus then said that patients should challenge their doctors and ask for data if they're told they need to take more vitamin D. "We now have to reassess what is normal," he said. "Nobody should be taking it at the present time, in a normal individual."
      Medpage Today is a publication for physicians and health-care workers. It really is very significant that anybody would be told to "challenge their Doctors"

      ..Trevor..

      mvanwink5
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      Supplements in pills... FDA is still pounding it into every form of food or beverage. :X

      Markt9452
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      http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=2195120

      Effect of Vitamin D Supplementation on Blood Pressure
      A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis Incorporating Individual Patient Data

      JAMA Intern Med. Published online March 16, 2015. doi:10.1001/jamainternmed.2015.0237

      Conclusions and Relevance Vitamin D supplementation is ineffective as an agent for lowering BP and thus should not be used as an antihypertensive agent.

      Ron
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      Vitamin D Deficiency in Dutch School-Age Children...

      http://jn.nutrition.org/content/early/2015/02/18/jn.114.208280.abstract

      Here we go again.. :X

      stuckpac
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      But did the study evaluate whether the kids were "healthy?"  If all they did in the study was measure serum Vitamin D levels and didn't make any comment on whether these kids were ill or continually more sick than their counterparts with "normal" Vitamin D levels, what good is the study?  I would almost bet that there are many school-age children who live closer to the equator who have "normal" Vitamin D levels who aren't as healthy as these children.  My hope is that their government doesn't pull some knee-jerk reaction and pass a bunch of laws meant to "correct a situation" which may not need correcting.

      Markt9452
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      Important ... factors associated with vitamin D deficiency were ... playing outside.

      Better not let the kids play outside.

      They might end up Vitamin D deficient.

      Wait What ?

      leroybrown
      ...


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      Interesting blog post discussing the DRI as applied to vit D.

      http://nutrevolve.blogspot.ca/2015/03/using-dris-vitamin-d-case-study.html

      Markt9452
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      From Debs article on the subject...

      http://nutrevolve.blogspot.ca/2015/03/using-dris-vitamin-d-case-study.html

      This is the critical error that Heaney and Veugeler make - they measure the amount of vitamin D that would need to be taken in to get everyone in the population up to the RDA blood level - but by definition, that amount is exceedingly high for most.

      This tends to be a common mistake, especially coming from a clinicians perspective. If you look at how DRI's are suggested to be used (5), we tell people to plan a healthy diet aiming for the RDA. But when looking at a population and assessing an individual's needs based on some biochemical data (e.g. 25OHD), it's suggested to use the Estimated Average Requirement (EAR) and other clinical markers to determine the possibility of inadequacy. It's critical for practitioner's to understand that we can't just assume everyone in the population needs the RDA, because by definition, it's more than needed by 97.5 percent of the population.

      Prof Trevor Marshall
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      Each of these practitioners proselytizing Vit-D supplementation is themselves taking large quantities of Calciferol.  As time goes by, I would expect the steroid to gradually lose its effect, as do corticosteroids, and those taking it would have to increase their dose.

      This is the same cycle (IMHO) which leads to Sarcies getting 120mg of prednisone, and it still not 'doing the job', just prior to them dying of pneumonia, C.difficile (etc).

      ..trevor..

      Rico
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      Don't know if this has already been posted or not ...

      Vitamin D, calcium supplements do not improve menopausal symptoms

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/06/150601104533.htm

      scooker48
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      Good find, Rico.

      Thanks,

      Sherry

      eClaire
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      Regarding to the most recently posted study about menopausal symptoms:

      ""Our study suggests that women should not rely on vitamin D and calcium supplements to relieve menopausal symptoms, but there are important caveats," said Erin S. LeBlanc, MD, MPH, lead author and investigator with the Kaiser Permanente Center for Health Research in Portland, Oregon. "The average age of the women at the start of our study was 64, but the average age of menopause is 51, and it's around that time that the most severe symptoms usually occur."

      Of course there are caveats when you go looking for something and don't find it.

      leroybrown
      ...


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      Meanwhile, in Canada:

      C-388 — An Act to establish a National Vitamin D Day
        Tabled by: — James Lunney (Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni)
        Description: “Abundant scientific research in the past decade,” said Lunney, who doesn’t believe in evolution, “has underscored the vital role of vitamin D.” He called for every November 2 to be ‘National Vitamin D Day’.
        Status: Lunney’s bill didn’t see the light of day.

      scooker48
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      Good news and Hooray for Canada:D.

      Sherry

      leroybrown
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      Sometimes I think you can't even make this stuff up.

      Markt9452
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      Every Day is "National Vitamin D Day" in Canada :)

      Rico
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      Sad, isn't it?! Probably in many countries too

      scooker48
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      http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ejcn2015129a.html

      Serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D and self-reported mental health status in adult Dane

      Our results suggest that low serum 25(OH)D is not associated with self-reported symptoms/diagnosis of depression and anxiety.


      Trudy.Heil_NP
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      http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/298133.php

      Vitamin D supplements offer limited benefit to obese teens

      "For her team's most recent study, they examined the effect of vitamin D supplementation in 19 obese adolescents aged 13-18 with vitamin D deficiency, assessing what influence - if any - it had on their overall health....Dr. Kumar...says that she was surprised not to have uncovered any health benefit."

      **Thanks Markt9452 =)

      Last edited on Mon Aug 17th, 2015 20:20 by Trudy.Heil_NP

      Markt9452
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      http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/298133.php

      "Dr. Kumar suggests that this finding could be due to the relatively small number of children participating in the study and its short timeframe. To address these limitations, she calls for larger, placebo-controlled studies to investigate the long-term effects of vitamin D supplementation."

      See how quickly they learn.

      The good doctor is already looking for funding the next experiment on the children. :)

      Last edited on Mon Aug 17th, 2015 21:57 by Markt9452

      healingjason
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      A recent study has pointed to the ineffectiveness of vitamin d (and calcium) supplements and the corruption of medical 'science' relating to vitamin d caused by commercial interests seeking to make money from vitamin d supplementation - see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26198274. This study was featured on a popular health radio program here in Oz - see http://www.abc.net.au/radio/programitem/peBWDZk2z3?play=true

      scooker48
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      I see only a bibliographic description when I click on the link to

      BMJ. 2015 Jul 21;351:h3170. doi: 10.1136/bmj.h3170.
      Web of industry, advocacy, and academia in the management of osteoporosis.

      Does anyone have full text?
      Thank you,
      Sherry

      davidmac
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      NIH Study Shows no Benefit of Omega-3 or Other Nutritional Supplements for Cognitive Decline.

      https://nei.nih.gov/news/pressrelease/cognitive_decline

      scooker48
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      Thanks to Paul Albert for retrieving this one:

      Web of industry, advocacy, and academia in the management of osteoporosis

      BMJ 2015

      http://press.psprings.co.uk/bmj/july/osteoporosis.pdf

      Joyful
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      Sobering: Evidence for harms also emerged, including hospital admission for gastrointestinal symptoms, kidney stones, falls, hip fracture, myocardial infarction, and stroke. Among older adults living independently, the number needed to harm for vascular events (178) is less than the number needed to treat to prevent a fracture (302).

      We conclude that increased calcium and vitamin D intake should not have been recommended for older adults living independently after 2007, a view consistent with the conclusion of the 2009 Cochrane review.

      scooker48
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      I believe this is the Cochrane review but updated:

      http://www.cochrane.org/CD007470/ENDOC_vitamin-d-supplementation-for-prevention-of-mortality-in-adults

      Vitamin D supplementation for prevention of mortality in adults


      We also observed adverse effects to vitamin D such as renal stone formation (seen for vitamin D3 combined with calcium) and elevated blood levels of calcium (seen for both alfacalcidol and calcitriol).

      However, the study also points towards decreased mortality with Vit D.

      Humph,

      Sherry

      Last edited on Fri Aug 28th, 2015 22:47 by scooker48

      Joyful
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      Here is an example of a doctor trying to "treat the secondary marker" from a post by Ron that I just came across...

      His patients are low in D2-D3, so he supplements, but it doesn't change their test results???
      http://www.ehs-mcs.org/en/treatments_161.html

      Generally it is based on the administration of antagonists for the H1 receptor in order to normalize hyper-histaminea (using the most up to date anti -H1 antihistaminic); antioxidants; natural plant-derived brain revasculation agents, high dose vitamins B1, B2, B6, D2-D3, Omega 3 oils and zinc.

      Vitamin D deficiency: A strong vitamin D2 - D3 deficiency has been observed before treatment in many patients. The fermented papaya preparation did not correct such a deficiency. The action mechanisms of the deficiency still remain unknown, since a lack of sun exposure is not an issue here.

      No vitamin deficiency other than vitamin D2 - D3 was observed.

      :X:shock::X:shock::X

      Looks like the standard treatment (above) is about as immune suppressive as you can get without standing in front of a microwave oven.

      Rico
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      This is not to promote Denosumab in any way, but to show the following:

      daily calcium and vitamin D alone was associated with a progressive and significant loss of BMD

      BMD = Bone Mineral Density

      http://acrabstracts.org/abstract/denosumab-restores-cortical-bone-loss-at-the-distal-radius-associated-with-aging-and-reduces-wrist-fracture-risk-analyses-from-the-cross-over-group-in-the-extension-of-the-denosumab-pivotal-fracture/

      http://www.newswise.com/articles/denusomab-reverses-bone-loss-and-lowers-wrist-fracture-rates-in-women-with-osteoporosis

      lionel forbes
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      Hey everybody,It is an established maxim within the prefessions of chiropractice and osteopathy etc that bone strength can only be achieved by weight-bearing activities-not necessarily weight lifting but gardening or housework involving a lot of lifting etc

      Prof Trevor Marshall
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      A decade ago it was shown that the estrogen receptor had the primary role in building bone matrix strength (the stuff in the center of bones which gives the strength).
       

      Cynthia S
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      Do we have a peer reviewed paper on that?  Cynthia

      scooker48
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      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3533305/

      I confess to not reading more than the abstract, but this might point us in the right direction.

      Prof Trevor Marshall
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      Good find, Sherry, but I actually attended a presentation by a Japanese researcher, probably in 2012 or so, and he had published a paper in Science or Nature (etc) on the topic. I haven't been able to find it, even though I recall he showed a 'glossy' page as one of his slides.

      Oh, wait, maybe it is cited in the paper you found... Yes, probably in citation 8... In "Cell" not "Nature". Oh well, my memory sometimes lets me down :) :)

      scooker48
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      Dr. Marshall,

      You are an impeccable bibliographer.:D

      With highest respect,

      Sherry

      Markt9452
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      National Standard of Canada
      Canadian General Standards Board
      Organic production systems

      CAN/CGSB-32.311-2015

      Permitted substances lists

      Cholecalciferol (vitamin D3)
      May be used outdoors and inside greenhouses for rodent control when methods described in 5.6.1 of CAN/CGSB-32.310 have failed.

      Prohibited inside on-farm food processing and food storage facilities.

      scooker48
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      http://www.healio.com/internal-medicine/nephrology/news/online/%7Bc8d07bf8-57c8-4158-8772-06e3a337d636%7D/vitamin-d-supplementation-did-not-treat-anemia-in-patients-on-dialysis

      Vitamin D supplementation did not treat anemia in patients on dialysis


      Miskulin DC, et al. J Am Soc Nephrol. 2015;doi:10.1681/ASN.2015040468

      Results from a clinical trial indicate that nutritional vitamin D supplements do not help in treating anemia in patients on hemodialysis, according to data published in the Journal of the American Society of Nephrology.

      Trudy.Heil_NP
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      More bad news for Vitamin D supplementation and asthma- Full Article: http://journals.lww.com/md-journal/Fulltext/2015/12150/Can_Vitamin_D_Supplementation_in_Addition_to.22.aspx

      Abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26683927

      "The results do not support a role for vitamin D in the management of asthma."
      :shock:

      Merry Christmas,
      Trudy

      scooker48
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      Trudy:  Good find.:)

      Vitamin D supplementation in addition to asthma controllers cannot decrease asthma exacerbation and FeNO, nor improve lung function and asthma symptoms, although it can be safely applied to increase serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D levels.

      Trudy.Heil_NP
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      "safely" :X:shock::X

      We all know better....

      Merry Christmas,
      Trudy

      be-well
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      although the GP insisted on giving my elderly 90 yr old mother  vitamin d3 with calcium in a liquid drink first thing every morning after a wrist fracture, for 10 years, her vitamin d levels measured 25d-5, 1,25d, 70.  She had dementia and alzhiemers, her gait was slightly uneven, and the GP simply blew me off with a comment about the elderly 'not getting sufficient sunlight, because they live in a nursing home".

      I actually felt powerless to defend my lovely mum and I wish this awful issue would get sorted.


      HeatherZ
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      It is very sad be-well :(

      Sallie Q
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      i today heard a recorded talk by another (now deceased) Oz scientist who mid last century demonstrated that
      treatment for rickets - vit. D supplement for that (extremely rare in modern society) condition
       and
      treatment for osteopenia - calcium (when deficient in that element)
       must be completely different.

      His research was unpublished for quite some time because it did not fit the paradigm, nevertheless, the information has been around since Prof. Marshall was in junior school

      Modern doctors are over-worked or plain lazy and/or badly educated :(

      Last edited on Sat Dec 26th, 2015 21:50 by Sallie Q

      Bane
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      Taking vitamin D may benefit people with multiple sclerosis

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/01/160104080559.htm
      http://www.neurology.org/content/early/2015/12/30/WNL.0000000000002316

      "The people taking the high dose had a reduction in the percentage of inflammatory T cells related to MS severity, specifically IL-17+CD4+ and CD161+CD4+ cells. When the increase in vitamin D levels in the blood over base line levels was greater than 18 ng/ml, every additional 5 ng/ml increase in vitamin D led to a 1 percent decrease in the percentage of IL-17+CD4+ T cells in the blood"

      "This study provides Class I evidence that cholecalciferol supplementation with 10,400 IU daily is safe and well-tolerated in patients with MS and exhibits in vivo pleiotropic immunomodulatory effects"

      Bane
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      Higher monthly doses of vitamin D associated with increased risk of falls

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/01/160104125326.htm

      "Doses of 60,000 IU and 24,000 IU plus calcifediol were more likely to result in 25-hydroxyvitamin D levels of at least 30 ng/mL but they were associated with no benefit on lower extremity function"

      "Compared with a monthly standard-of-care dose of 24,000 IU of vitamin D3, two monthly higher doses of vitamin D (60,000 IU and 24,000 IU plus calcifediol) conferred no benefit on the prevention of functional decline and increased falls in seniors 70 years and older with a prior fall event"

      Nyima
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      http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/the-sun-goes-down-on-vitamin-d-why-i-changed-my-mind-about-this-celebrated-supplement-a6800191.html

      scooker48
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      Good find, Nyima.:)

      Trudy.Heil_NP
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      No Effect of High-Dose Vitamin D Treatment on β-Cell Function, Insulin Sensitivity, or Glucose Homeostasis in Subjects With Abnormal Glucose Tolerance: A Randomized Clinical Trial

      http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/early/2016/01/07/dc15-1057.abstract

      "CONCLUSIONS This study gives no support for any substantial effect of high-dose vitamin D treatment for 8 weeks in prediabetes or diet-treated type 2 diabetes on β-cell function, insulin sensitivity, or glycemic control." :D

      Onward & Upward,
      Trudy :cool:

      Joyful
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      Exposure to excessive oral vitamin D in youth: a risk factor for celiac disease in later life?

      Abstract

      Celiac disease is an autoimmune disease initiated by an allergic reaction to gliadin a component of the protein gluten that is found in wheat and other grains.

      Vitamin D is a prohormone with a number of biochemical functions including immunomodulatory functions in its active form.

      Supplementation with large doses of vitamin D induces symptoms that are similar to celiac disease in some of the population.


      Some researchers have noted that consumption of large doses of oral vitamin D early in life is associated with increased incidence of allergic diseases later in life.

      An examination of celiac disease suggests that an allergy is fundamental to its development and it features Th2 cytokine elevations which typically characterize allergic diseases.

      In addition it has comorbidity with allergic diseases where exposure to large doses of vitamin D early in life is a risk factor. This raises the possibility that large doses of vitamin D early in life could be a risk factor for inducing celiac disease later in life as well.

      The comorbidity between Williams syndrome, which is characterized by spikes in blood levels of vitamin D, and celiac disease gives additional credence to this hypothesis. Epidemiological evidence supports this hypothesis as well. Vitamin D consumption among the young and celiac disease prevalence are high in Sweden, Finland, and the United States. Vitamin D consumption among the young and celiac disease prevalence are low in Russia and Germany.

      The timing of the increases in prevalence in the United States and Sweden also coincides with increasing vitamin D consumption. This is most striking in Sweden where a law required significant vitamin D fortification of food starting in 1983 and the start of the celiac epidemic in Sweden has been independently dated from 1984.

      This hypothesis also provides a potential explanation for some seemingly contradictory results in the literature regarding breastfeeding and risk of celiac disease.



      Lee
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      Did anyone else see the program by 20/20 News on PBS, that was on the hidden dangers of supplements?  It just scratched the tip of the iceberg but it did mention "D" and other vitamins and supplements that are clearly dangerous!  Lee

      Lee
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      Here is more info on the program I mentioned on PBS about the dangers of supplements.  Lee
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCb5R4YVf2c

      scooker48
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      This one looks interesting; at least it refutes the low D25 myth.

      http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0064348

      Serum 1,25-Dihydroxyvitamin D: An Outcome Prognosticator in Human Sepsis
      AbstractIn sepsis, the vitamin D active metabolite 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D (1,25(OH)2D) may play a crucial role by its action to produce cathelicidin and improve endothelial barrier function, such that a deficiency in 1,25(OH)2D is associated with poor outcome. To test our hypothesis, we performed analysis of stored plasma samples from a prospective observational study in 91 patients with sepsis, age of 59.1+/−2.0 years, 52.7% females, and 11.0% deaths at 30 days. Vitamin D status, including 25-hydroxyvitamin D (25(OH)D), 1,25(OH)2D, 24,25-dihydroxyvitamin D (24,25(OH)2D), and parathyroid hormone (PTH), were measured daily over 3 days after hospital admission. At baseline, 1,25(OH)2D was significantly different between survivors vs. non-survivors. But there was no significant difference in 25(OH)D, 24,25(OH)2D, and PTH. In a multivariable binomial logistic regression model, age, total calcium and 1,25(OH)2D were significant predictors of 30-day mortality. Kaplan Meier analysis showed that patients with mean 1,25(OH)2D measured over 3 days of < = 13.6 pg/mL had 57.1% 30-day survival compared to 91.7% in patients with 1,25 (OH)2D level >13.6 pg/mL (p<0.01). From repeated measures regression analysis, there was significant increase in 1,25(OH)2D for increases in 25(OH)D in both survivors and non-survivors. However, compared to survivors, the low 25(OH)D in non-survivors was insufficient to account for the larger decrease in 1,25(OH)2D, indicating a dysfunctional 1α-hydroxylase. Additionally, there was a significant negative correlation between PTH and 1,25(OH)2D in both survivors and non-survivors, suggesting a severe impairment in the effect of PTH to increase renal 1α-hydroxylase activity. In conclusion, low 1,25(OH)2D levels are associated with increased 30-day mortality in sepsis patients, likely due to impaired 25(OH)D hydroxylation and PTH insensitivity. Our data also suggest that the active metabolite 1,25(OH)2D may be an important therapeutic target in the design of sepsis

      bookdad
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      I just contacted Imagine Foods on their web site and thanked them for continuing to make Rice Dream Classic.

      Last edited on Thu Apr 28th, 2016 17:59 by bookdad

      bookdad
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      I have been using Rice Dream for some time now. About a year and a half ago they came out with an "Enriched" version. it seems that the health food stores, Walmart, and suppliers are pushing to replace the "classic" version (no vitamin D) with the Enriched. Consequently, the shoppers are raiding the shelves as soon as the classic is put out. The enriched is just sitting there. When will they get a clue? Not many of us want all that added crap. Walmart has since discontinued offering the classic version. When I asked about it they said they cant get it anymore. I promptly went to the health food store and ordered 2 cases (very long shelf life) and received them in a week. somebody isn't telling the truth. Also of interest is the ubiquitous soy. its in everything. this is a really bad additive for men (mimics estrogen) and for women if you have too much estrogen you grow extra yeast. so, if we are going to write the food producers, lets include a laundry list, or better, just ask for pure food.

      Cairo123
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      This is a classic result of eating processed foods. When one consumes processed foods versus real food (whole unprocessed food) one is at the mercy of whatever the manufacturer decides to put in it. If it has a list of ingredients it is probably processed.

      http://mpkb.org/home/food/additives

      http://mpkb.org/home/food

      bookdad
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      thank you those were very helpful links. I've sent them to my friend Brad that is just starting. I read all the ingredients on every thing and my sweetheart is even doing that too to make sure we don't get something with hidden sources of antagonists. I was so surprised at how many things have added Soy. Even "natural" cheese!!!

      bookdad
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      read the ingredients!

      Last edited on Tue May 10th, 2016 14:55 by bookdad

      Cynthia S
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      Just reading the ingredients is not enough if the product has any dairy, processed or otherwise, in it, as manufacturers that use fortified products as ingredients do not generally mention the fact that any of their ingredients are fortified, only if they add the D themselves.

      Cynthia

      Cairo123
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      This gets back to the very problem. If it has ingredients it is probably processed. It is best that one eat as much whole unprocessed food as possible that one prepares from scratch. That way you know and can control what goes into it.

      Claudia
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      Indeed. Jamie Oliver said it best.
      "Real food doesn't have ingredients, real food is ingredients."

      Sallie Q
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      thank you, Claudia  :)
      Health seekers of the world, get real   :D

      ooooooooooooooo i hate it when i think i am adding something near the end of a page, then it turns up at the top of one, and i can not delete :(

      this is Claudia's quote... deserves to be on top :)

      Indeed. Jamie Oliver said it best. "Real food doesn't have ingredients, real food is ingredients."

      Last edited on Mon May 16th, 2016 22:55 by Sallie Q

      Bane
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      Vitamin D may not be the great solution to health problems

      https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/06/160616120528.htm

      "Allan believes much of that stems from misplaced trust in previous research studies showing low vitamin D levels are associated with poor health outcomes, however they don't prove causation"


      "The 40 year old person is highly unlikely to benefit from vitamin D," says Allan. "And when I say highly unlikely, I mean it's not measurable in present science."

      jezzer
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      UK still in the slow lane!

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-36846894

      Markt9452
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      http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11606-016-3645-y

      Review Paper
      Journal of General Internal Medicine
      July 2016, Volume 31, Issue 7, pp 780-791
      First online: 07 March 2016
      Vitamin D: A Narrative Review Examining the Evidence for Ten Beliefs
      • G. Michael Allan 
      • , Lynda Cranston
      • , Adrienne Lindblad
      • , James McCormack
      • , Michael R. Kolber
      • , Scott Garrison
      • , Christina Korownyk
      Evidence does not support the use of vitamin D supplementation for the prevention of cancer, respiratory infections or rheumatoid arthritis.

      Similarly, evidence does not support vitamin D supplementation for the treatment of multiple sclerosis and rheumatoid arthritis or for improving depression/mental well-being.

      Regular testing of 25-hydroxyvitamin D is generally not required, and mega-doses (≥300,000 IU) appear to increase harms.

      Much of the evidence is at high risk of bias, with multiple flaws, including analyses of secondary endpoints, small and underpowered studies, inconsistent results and numerous other issues.

      Therefore, enthusiasm for a vitamin D panacea should be tempered.

      be-well
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      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-36846894

      Yesterday, the UK tv news media repeated a whole litany of reasons why we should start supplementing Vitamin D from the age of one year old.

      A small child with severe walking issues was featured, said to have recovered from rickets following a course of vitamin D. His before and after xrays were shown but his doctor conceded that his case was 'extreme'.  We are then told that if we wish to prevent a mass return of rickets cases we should follow the new guidelines issued today.

      I suppose the news item did try to be balanced presenting the pros and cons, typically from what seemed to be older regurgitated 'studies', but failed to responsibly remind the viewer to seek medical advice before starting a course of D.  Living in the UK in winter was partly to blame for the huge number of deficiencies, well maybe, concluding that there isn't that much compelling evidence to validate the dramatic chimes of doom..

      Ron
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      The first wearable daylight, sunlight and vitamin D coach in the world! :P

      https://www.holstcentre.com/news---press/2016/helios/

      "smart ring gives wearers feedback on the amount of sunlight they receive and how much vitamin D they create"

      "The Helios app (iOS and Android) shows daily vitamin D production, and lets you know when you have reached the recommended daily minimum amount."

      Prof Trevor Marshall
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      Sigh... :X

      Rico
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      Vitamin D deficiency widely overestimated

      http://www.foxnews.com/health/2016/11/10/vitamin-d-deficiency-is-widely-overestimated-doctors-warn.html

      Ron
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      http://www.itv.com/news/2016-11-24/evidence-does-not-back-vitamin-d-supplements-says-bmj/

      Sallie Q
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      yea NZ
      punching above its weight, as usual (my Dad was a Kiwi)

      Ron
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      "Vitamin D can prevent autism" or at least that is what the Dutch newspaper headlines tell us today.. :X

      http://www.telegraaf.nl/gezondheid/27178845/__Vitamine_D_kan_autisme_voorkomen__.html

      paper:
      http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/mp2016213a.html

      Limburg
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      Conflicting reports Ron, those last two.......
      Maybe it says more about the way of examining.......or who is doing the examination.......or?

      scooker48
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      http://www.prweb.com/releases/2016/12/prweb13931584.htm

      Discover the Clinical Significance of 1,25-Dihydroxyvitamin D Testing in Upcoming DiaSorin Webinar

      Share Article

      In this webinar, hosted by LabRoots on December 7, attendees will gain a better understanding of the role of several hormones, including 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D play in calcium and phosphate homeostasis.

      Cynthia S
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      Looks like an association study to me.  The Dutch news article is, no doubt, the usual misinterpretation of association as cause and effect.

      Cynthia

      scooker48
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      Possibly so. Initially I was excited because they were looking at D125, but I've sorta given up on TPTB. Sigh.

      Sherry

      bookdad
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      so, we could turn this "wearable vitamin D coach" around and use it to more accurately detect exposure, kind of like a Geiger counter...just thinking outside the room...:) I wonder if they would consider a group discount for those on the protocol? we could also do some research and give guidelines for its use.

      jrfoutin
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      Hi BookDad!

      Probably a good idea to wear a microwave detector around. Even when the sun is down and everyone stays inside even darkened rooms, most are bathed with immune function suppression via cell towers.

      We can get out of the sun and control light rather nicely. Those EMF waves are a lot more pervasive.

      The new wireless "craze" is wearing a collar-wrapping wring with earbuds:
      https://www.cnet.com/topics/headphones/best-headphones/best-wireless-neckband-headphones-of-2016/

      It basically equates to central processing brain & spinal column constant, direct proximity immune-numbing actions. (Please don't buy these for your children and grand children.)

      ....

      I guess on the upside we can look forward to ever younger and more sick folks hitting the web to find solutions to their illness.

      On the downside, it is going to take a lot of convincing for masses of humanity to give up this tech toy.

      Cairo123
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      Illness will get worse but they will blame everything else but their tech toys.

      bookdad
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      ok good to know! thanks!

      Prof Trevor Marshall
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      Trudy is temporarily out of microwave sniffers at the moment. I need to get some more to her after Christmas. The new OKcell rechargeable batteries are starting to come more readily available. These recharge from a micro-USB cable (like we used on the CWS) and allow you to leave the sniffer on without fear of flattening the battery...

      Ron
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      "Baby dies in France after being given vitamin D supplement"

      http://en.rfi.fr/france/20170103-baby-dies-france-after-being-given-vitamin-d-supplement

      Joyful
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      "The baby died of a cardiac arrest on 21 December, France's official medicines watchdog ANSM announced on Monday, confirming a report in Le Figaro newsaper."

      "The independent review Prescrire has on several occasions warned that the method of administration of Uvésterol D, by pipette, is dangerous."

      Last edited on Wed Jan 4th, 2017 04:18 by Joyful

      davidmac
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      France moves to suspend Vitamin D supplement after baby dies.

      https://www.yahoo.com/news/france-moves-suspend-vitamin-d-supplement-baby-dies-081734018.html

      Markt9452
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      Hoffer wrote: France moves to suspend Vitamin D supplement after baby dies.

      https://www.yahoo.com/news/france-moves-suspend-vitamin-d-supplement-baby-dies-081734018.html
        Rob10 hours ago

        So, the liquid Vit D went down the airway and the baby drowned or suffocated? I don't see how Vit D can cause death other than that.

        Melvin5 hours ago

        An unbelievably, world-class, stupid bureaucratic response.

      Last edited on Wed Jan 4th, 2017 18:02 by Markt9452

      davidmac
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      Sorry. Didn't read it that closely. I'll blame it on brain-fog:?

      be-well
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      I've had a browse through the Public Health England updated and distributed report on what is currently thought to be correct on clinical understandings of Vitamin D, (preset guidelines from 1991) by their scientific advisory committee, (SACN July 21st 2016).

      http://www.gov.uk/.../sacn-vitamin-d-and-health-report

      I am looking for flaws in the data which might help to revisit guidelines for almost everyone being informed of likely deficiency. Comments were invited from all interested parties prior to the review. What stands out for me is the reliance on old 'evidence' bases and the statement that in relation to exisitng chronic disease, no safety data can be recommended, as it is flawed in design, or inconsistent in multiple instances, for this patient group. Which is the same as saying that when in doubt, still go ahead and recommend the patient takes a daily supplement or injection.

      No study of both 25D and 1,25D seems to have been suggested in any instance, other than focus on skin synthesis and sun screen being one of the causes to of presumed markers of deficiency.

      I don't even recall Sarcoidosis being mentioned or data for this group having been included. But the report is lengthy.
      Metabolic issues are surely a common sense vigilance for the mainstream medics ?

      Page 107 summarises :

      Acute and chronic exposure to excess vitamin D intake can result in hypercalcaemia, demineralisation of bone, soft tissue calcification and renal damage. Hypercalcaemia is the most appropriate endpoint on which to base ULs for vitamin D since adverse effects that might occur at lower doses, through other mechanisms, have not been reliably established.


      Last edited on Wed Jan 11th, 2017 18:32 by be-well

      Sallie Q
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      i've only just started in to read this report and am fascinated by the assumption portrayed below,
      that pregnant woman's bodies could evolve with no certainty of how much vitamin D is healthy :?
      5.14 A cohort study in Denmark (við Streym et al., 2016) Findings from this study suggest that daily supply of vitamin D from breast milk of healthy women, with plasma 25(OH)D concentrations >50nmol/L, is low and inadequate to meet infant dietary vitamin D requirements.

      Last edited on Wed Jan 11th, 2017 19:59 by Sallie Q

      Markt9452
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      You are correct   - they are not using logic or reason.

      The scientists have forgotten that it was the philosophers that invented this "process" called science.

      And so they are not rooted in these disciplines of logic and reason anymore.

      So most of the science now is propaganda.

      be-well
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      What if ARF were to produce, in a friendly patient information leaflet format something that directly deals with 'What your 25,D and 1,25D blood test may tell you and your doctor about your health'.

      If these two tests are already familiar to rheumatologists and small number of endocrinologists and vitamin D transcription experts, might this be such a bad idea aimed at patients with Chronic diseases or suspected?  It's about time the presumption that low 25ohD must also mean low 1,25 dihydroxy.  If I were a doctor I would be curious to want to understand how to interpret their significance.

      Recently, a leading hospital pulmonologist mentioned that ACE level bloods, usually used to check inflammation, were 'no longer considered reliable'.

      Last edited on Mon Feb 13th, 2017 23:54 by be-well

      Prof Trevor Marshall
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      If I were a doctor I would be curious to want to understand how to interpret their significance
      Oh how I wish that were true. The opposite is often the reality.

      There are two problems with your suggestion. First, I am spending all my time on producing equipment to monitor the current 5G deployment. There is nothing, NOTHING, you can buy today that will tell you if millimetre wave cells are being deployed nearby. That is the #1 priority in my mind because it seems nobody else has the technology background to do this. Second, the handling of 1,25-D samples by labs is really, really bad. Nothing seems to get frozen any more. This clouds the usefulness of any 1,25-D testing.

      The first problem could be dealt with if we had some volunteers producing these documents instead of leaving it all to "The Foundation", but the second reflects the overall disinterest of medicine in this issue. Most physicians are going crazy trying to help the patients they can already diagnose, without worrying about diagnosing new patients (who would then have to be treated).

      The easy answer - widespread adoption of some form of Olmesartan therapy - is beyond the comprehension of institutionalized Medicine. It is just crazy to think that a blood pressure drug could treat chronic disease. Or so I am told.

      ..Trevor..

      mvanwink5
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      Actually, the issue is that medicine has ignored the Microbiome except the GI tract Microbiome. Reason? What if the herd of elephants was the issue behind chronic disease, what then???

      No, stick to palliatives and immune suppressing pharma products and you are safe from anyone with deep pocket money... therefore safe from the medical Institutional syndicate.. And patients, well, tell them that the body needs the Microbiome, right out of the book Candide.

      Prof Trevor Marshall
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      I forgot to mention (in my post, above) that the last sentence in my recent Electrosmog paper abstract said "effective control of environmental Electrosmog immunomodulation may soon become necessary for successful therapy of autoimmune disease."

      Medicine's continued ignorance of that factor is causing headaches in clinics, and a surge in unhappy patients who have no idea why their illness has gotten so much worse recently...

      mvanwink5
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      Expect a drop in life expectancy, greater than that already seen.

      be-well
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      I understand your priorities Dr Marshall and the importance of staying totally focused on your current task(s).

      I think my enthusiasm for some kind of leaflet about the two key bloods is my observation over the last ten years that many consultants are nervous about treating chronic disease, especially in younger patients. Nervous about prescribing steroids because more of their patients are coming to clinic with competent knowledge, quality of life implications, infection risks, and few doctors remain ignorant to the fact that there is a huge conflict surrounding Vitamin D in mainstream.

      Patients also expect reliable information about their metabolism, aging - fears around obesity, hypercalcemia and how to see trouble coming and head it off.  The 1,25-D test deserves to become routine.

      It's disappointing to see that we have a deficit in volunteers to help the ARF with their documents.  I may well have a dabble myself if only to try to re establish the correct handling of bloods requiring freezing for accuracy.

      Sallie Q
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      on the other hand I do not see any point in the 25D test  being routine

      what it indicates is illness, one already has a strong suspicion of illness, or would not be seeking help from a doctor :?

      jezzer
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      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38988982

      Not the sharpest tools in the box! ;)

      Jigsaw
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      The Effect of High Dose Cholecalciferol on Arterial Stiffness and Peripheral and Central Blood Pressure in Healthy Humans: A Randomized Controlled ... - PubMed - NCBI

      Oral cholecalciferol 3000 IU/day does not affect arterial stiffness or blood pressure after 16 weeks of treatment in healthy normotensive adults.


      Effectiveness of Vitamin D Supplementation for Cardiovascular Health Outcomes. - PubMed - NCBI

      In conclusion, results from published RCTs indicate that vitamin D supplementation is ineffective in improving cardiovascular health among various patient populations, including in the presence or absence of vitamin D deficiency.

      Last edited on Mon Mar 13th, 2017 11:25 by Jigsaw

      mvanwink5
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      Article on the new FDA director. Interesting.

      http://www.ruthfullyyours.com/2017/03/13/a-doctor-to-heal-the-fda-scott-gottlieb-may-be-trumps-most-important-nominee/

      davidmac
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      Most vitamins and supplements claims - total nonsense...

      http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/diet/which-vitamins-should-you-actually-buy/news-story/d2792082ed728a5fb653ceb7432ea3b9?from=rss-basic

      Joyful
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      Thanks Davidmac.

      But, the story with vitamin D is complicated.To know if we are low on vitamin D, scientists would have to agree on one thing — exactly how much vitamin D we need. And perhaps surprisingly, scientists are still debating this. “There is a lot of animated discussion right now,”

      Claudia
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      It's a shame that the law requires anything advertised as "___ milk" to be fortified with D (in America) but I believe some brands are spelling their product names with a 'Y' such as Almond Mylk, and that may get around the law.

      Joyful
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      Interesting.
      I gave up on drinking Mylk. ;)

      I just go straight for low heat processed heavy whipping cream from grassfed cows!

      Cairo123
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      I gave up drinking milk several years ago. In addition to fortification with Vitamin D most commercial milk comes from cows fed grain (corn,soy, and wheat). Most of them are fed growth hormones and anti-biotics. Most corn and soy in the US is GMO. It is likely contaminated with herbicides and pesticides.

      The only dairy I eat is cheese from 100% grass fed cows that is not fortified with D.

      Rico
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      I've been inquiring about feed used for organic, grass-fed and pastured animals in my region. Grain-based feed used for most of these animals contains Vitamin D. I found a farm with grass fed cattle that do not feed anything other than grass and hay. The feed being used for free-range chickens contains the following D content:

      6948 IU/kg

      Anyone know if this is significant or not? I can't get my 25D level down sufficiently as I just don't know what food I'm eating that contains D. My wife has very low D and she is a vegetarian. I'm going to try to change my meat-eating habits to see if that is the source.

      One organic farmer told me that it's perhaps more likely that organically-fed animals eat feed containing vitamins than conventional meat. Reason being that conventional suppliers of meat will do everything to go on the cheap side, thus not fortify. But organic growers will see vitamins as a good thing. I don't know if this is true but it does make sense.

      Trudy.Heil_NP
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      Rico~
      There is a dairy in my area that doesn't add vit d to the milk but when I inquired further about what the cows were eating, they told me that Vit D was in the feed. The vit D 3 causes the vit A% to be 18%.....lots of D in that milk!!
      Trudy

      Cynthia S
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      It may not be your wife's diet for the low D.  Some people have a body that down regulates vit D.  My significant other was able to get his D down with no effort and even cheated a lot, even tho we ate pretty much the same foods.  If I cheated at all my D would go up.

      Cynthia

      Cairo123
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      I have been buying organic grassfed beef and cheese from a farmer in my state. They only feed the animals grass and hay. I also buy some of what he calls Omega 3 chicken. They roam free range. He claims he supplements their feed with a feed that he treats as proprietary.

      My 25-d has consistently been in the single digits.

      Last edited on Sun Dec 31st, 2017 03:17 by Cairo123

      Joyful
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      http://beta.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-vitamins-bone-fractures-20171226-story.html

      Do you take calcium and vitamin D to protect your bones?
      A new study says it doesn't help

      If taking more vitamin and mineral supplements is part of your plan for a healthier new year, a new study may prompt you to reconsider. Researchers looking for evidence that calcium and vitamin D pills could help prevent bone fractures have come up empty.

      davidmac
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      Rico wrote:
      I can't get my 25D level down sufficiently as I just don't know what food I'm eating that contains D. .

      Rico,
      You might want to look at Mike V's early posts in his progress thread; he also had a very difficult time getting his D to drop. He did accomplish it though through going full vegetarian and using specific antibiotics against microbes thought responsible for keeping his D elivated.

      mvanwink5
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      I think I was the worst case for getting serum 25D down to therapeutic range. As David said, I tried antibiotics, cut out all dairy (no meat), ate pea protein powder for protein, but in truth, I can't say that antibiotics or no dairy was responsible for the 25D levels falling. If antibiotics made a difference it did not show up in the numbers for (6?) months.

      I suspect the microbiome itself was manufacturing the 25D. Once the 25D levels did start to fall there was IP hell to pay, so maybe there was a 'lynchpin' species that made 25D that finally was killed off. If so, I doubt it was fugal as supposedly they make 25D2 and it was serum 25D3 that was high (30 ng/ml).

      I have a chart somewhere in my report thread that documents the 25D levels and what I did.

      Rico
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      Vitamin D3 causes a rise in Vitamin A? I don't recall seeing anything labelled with high A content in the foods I eat but will look at that.

      Approx 6 months prior to starting the MP with Olmesartan in 2006, I avoided foods with D and was able to get my 25D down to about 10 without any issue.

      Since about late 2011, I started feeling my mood problems very slowly return. Since around that time, I noticed my 25D rising and I just haven't been able to lower it.

      I'll go vegetarian if I have to for awhile to see if that makes any difference. I also think I've found a grass-fed only beef supplier so may limit meat to that. I'm convinced something must have changed in some food source back around 2011.

      mvanwink5
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      Food sounds like the problem.

      jrfoutin
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      "D" (NR1I1, PPP1R163) discussions in science journal literature are now becoming far more complex. That is not a bad thing.

      We might even thank the "fad" of supplementation and simplistic "good in so good out" mentality (in lay, medical, and our own expectations) that helped drive a lot of research, including the recent metastudy of over 50,000 over-50 community-dwelling adults Joyful referenced (http://beta.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-vitamins-bone-fractures-20171226-story.html or https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2667071) and a review of fuller molecular and genetic connections that hormone superfamily actor acts (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gene?term=Nr1i1 and https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/calcitriol-receptor... etc.).

      Why? because we really want (and need) to slice through dominant viable options to bring marker tests into ranges that translate to better immune competence outcomes for olmesartan synergy.

      We want to find a global quick answer or improve perceptions of what directly impacts which hormone nuclear receptors to create ideal immune competency conditions.

      This study suggests we might not be able to do it only via anecdotal food or -/+ supplement(s). The issue of hormones (even generally) is more complex than D in food or -/+ supplements -- and that is a big reason "Every week brings more bad news for Vitamin D" [supplementation].

      One thing I've learned on the MP is hormone signals are regulated within a complex system. (For example, IF food alone changed how all adolescents trigger and progress through puberty once in a lifetime, females ovulate cyclically after puberty over a lifetime --especially if menopause is another disease of aging, or any number of other hormone-driven processes that occur globally in relatively large no-diet-change human populations across very different communities across the planet -- all eating essentially different mainstay diets, THEN we might freely assume food/supplements are the only or the main player in the game of hormones.)

      The fact that food does contribute--sometimes more significantly than others--is not lost in my post, but food choices don't happen in a vacuum and other environmental factors (like EMF, light, stress reduction, rest/sleep hygiene, activity type/level/etc, chemical and pathogen exposure, extent of exposure, time frames of critical exposure like fetus/birth/early childhood/etc. and other factors) are worthy to cross reference.

      Still, all those D supplement studies have not gone to waste and a huge 50,000+ chunk of humanity over the age of 50 were pulled to reveal taking D and calcium supplements didn't make a difference in fracture rate for that age group. Joyful's reference to the study said to me, in the "no difference" author summary (in a very unstated way) that hormone outcomes are not just a food/supplement equation.

      Last edited on Sun Dec 31st, 2017 15:32 by jrfoutin

      mvanwink5
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      Because my dad's health is failing and then he broke his hip, I have been leaving my shield set up -70 dBm daytime with shielding hoodie, pants, plus Atticfoil sleep box and going to the 'Big City,' Orlando, where the RF is minimum of -30 dBm daytime. I still am wearing the same garments, plus I take my portable six layer 92# fabric sleep tent to sleep in.

      Result is that my digestion (I bring my own food) changes radically, (my interpretation is that the change is due to immune suppression from RF).

      Upon return, digestion returns to what it was before.

      The point is that hormones are likely making a similar change due to RF. So, all these studies that are conducted over the time period of rapid roll out of microwave wireless devices, and what the studies mean, including effects on bone, is likely meaningless, in the sense that the elephant in the living room (RF type and power levels) is unaccounted for.

      Last edited on Sun Dec 31st, 2017 16:22 by mvanwink5

      Rico
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      The return of some of my symptoms may be related to hormone fluctuation because of RF. But that would unlikely explain the high steroid 25D level. No?

      mvanwink5
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      My guess is still food. Go with 100% grass fed. 'Free Range' is not 'grass fed'. The rest of suspect foods is not new to you, i.e. go with whole foods, no mystery sauces, etc.

      Cynthia S
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      Rico, do you recall seeing the notice on our web site that the industry has come up with a yeast for making bread rise that generates vit D?  I believe it was mentioned that Sub-Way was using the yeast in their bread.  Other sources of bread may have also started using it.  So, it may be a worthwhile test to stop eating any bread and/or other foods with yeast.

      Cynthia

      Rico
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      Yes, I do remember that thread very well, Cynthia. I even contacted at least one yeast supplier about it, but it was not irradiated. Most of my bread is from home-baked bread using that yeast. I never eat at Subway for that reason.

      Two other people in my family also eat the home-baked bread, although less than I do, and their D levels are within the therapeutic range.

      Last edited on Mon Jan 1st, 2018 14:50 by Rico

      Prof Trevor Marshall
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      You might look at the WASA wholemeal wafers from Germany/Sweden. They don't use use Vitamin D and are a good staple carbohydrate to cover with butter, toasted cheese, etc...

      https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000EUHGB2/

      Rico
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      We have those crackers at our local supermarket. Guess it doesn't hurt to try. But I would really like to know if it's bread ingredients or meat that's causing the high D.

      How long should I realistically expect my 25D to come down if I've stopped consuming a food containing significant Vitamin D? Should I remeasure my 25D in 3 months?

      mvanwink5
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      At 22 ng/ml you will feel it if it drops significantly.

      Cairo123
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      The problem with bread is not limited to its vitamin D. All bread is rich in carbohydrates which are not MP friendly. See link below.

      https://mpkb.org/home/food/carbohydrates

      Additionally many breads are going to be fortified with synthetic folic acid which is another ingredient that is not MP friendly.

      https://mpkb.org/home/food/folic

      Better to eat whole unprocessed foods as close as possible to their natural state and not worry about ingredients in this or that processed food.

      https://mpkb.org/home/food

      https://mpkb.org/home/food/real_foods

      It is best to avoid al breads and breadlike products.

      davidmac
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      Rico,

      Also be aware that virtually all flour products (bread, pasta, pastries...) are fortified with folic acid which is contraindicated with the MP. At least that's the case in the US; not sure about Canada.

      David

      Prof Trevor Marshall
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      Rico wrote: We have those crackers at our local supermarket. Guess it doesn't hurt to try. But I would really like to know if it's bread ingredients or meat that's causing the high D.
      Indeed. it is easy and inexpensive to try the WASA (please don't call them 'crackers', they are much larger and stiffer than a 'cracker'). You get a change in Grain (a rye predominance) and get lower carbs than a slice of bread. Worth a try..

      I am not sure that a low carb diet helps the MP. It may for people who have GI sensitivities, but olmesartan will digest just as well with or without carbs in the diet. EMF electrosmog exposure has been a much larger factor than a carb diet - I guess you will all figure that out, eventually...

      davidmac
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      I agree. For me a low carb diet has mostly been palliative to combat the effects of intolerable gout IP. It's also possible that it's been palliative in dealing with issues regarding yeast infection - but that's just a guess. But the effects of EMF reduction are undeniable - a significant increase in immune activation and an accelerated rate of healing. I wouldn't say that a low carb diet is best for everyone; but I would definitely say that EMF shielding is mandatory for recovery.

      David

      mvanwink5
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      My GI tract microbiome must have radically changed once my serum 25D levels fell from 30 to the therapeutic range (11 ng/ml or below) as my ability to tolerate harder to digest food became zero. Further, as the serum levels continued to fall my GI tract had to adjust more and I had to counter that with diet adjustment and a continued lower olmesartan dosage. Over time, the GI tract recovered and olmesartan levels were brought back up.

      This is a dynamic therapy.

      Rico
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      This has been stated a few times over the years and I also see this in the MPKB ( https://mpkb.org/home/food ).

      • dairy products with more than 6% vitamin A (more than 6% vitamin A may indicate that vitamin D has been added as well, but is not included on the nutritional information)


      Why would Vitamin D be added and unlabeled if more than 6% Vitamin A is added to a dairy product? I have seen a few yogurts and cheeses contain 8 or 10% Vitamin A and no D labeled.

      Does it only apply to dairy products? I don't recall what, but have seen some other product(s) containing more than 6% Vitamin A.

      mvanwink5
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      It seems that A and D are often found together, so if Vit A is abnormally high (meaning it was added) it is likely D tagged along. There is probably another reason too, always is.

      Rico
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      I don't know why they wouldn't label adding Vitamin D in the Nutrients table if they added a high amount of Vitamin A. After all, they always advertise Vitamin D as being the sunshine vitamin and a good thing. More so than any other vitamin, it seems. You'd think they'd want to boast about it.

      bookdad
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      its a good idea to avoid supplementation of yeast anyway. the antibiotics people get periodically and some antibiotic foods unbalance the flora in our digestive tract leading many times to yeast overgrowth. and BTW men and women can have yeast problems.

      to limit yeast growth and try to restore balance avoid sugar, especially soft drinks, but from any source, breads and yeast containing cheese- cottage cheese and creme cheese are ok, and avoid fruits and veggies with natural sugar for 2 weeks.

      One can also use coconut oil to help kill off yeast in their cooking.

      when taking any antibiotic also take niacinamide with it to counter act the yeast growth. I'm not sure if this is contraindicated on the MP but it helped me when on the first part of the MP. I stopped taking it when I was over the antibiotics.

      bookdad
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      as far as meat is concerned I strive to eat the leanest meat I can get. it doesn't seem to make a difference if its organic or not but some meats do make me feel worse such as ham and some beef. venison and chicken don't bother me and canned chicken breast is the easiest on my body.

      I go by what makes me feel bad or good and adjust my menu from there.

      some foods make me have inflammation almost immediately and I try to avoid these. some foods especially with salt mess up my vision and cause joint inflammation. some foods make my skin hurt more than it normally does with the sarc. especially when laying on folds or seams or there is pressure.

      I think these foods will be different for others but you get my thought process.

      davidmac
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      The only meat I can tolerate right now is chicken white meat. Of course D is carried in the fat of animals so lean is always best.

      jrfoutin
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      Just a strategy idea...

      Might cut back on ***both*** meat and yeast (with your already known ideas on processed foods and refined sugars). But maybe eat meat and yeast foods extremely sparingly.

      That isn't starvation, just more meals with lots of fresh leafy dark green fresh veggies, fruits, nuts, whole grains etc. but that has a bonus of cooking less. Eat more home made salad dressings to avoid other nasty processed food soy stuff.

      Try that for a few months and see if diet change does anything to your D markers.

        •If diet change doesn't do a thing to help drop your D then meat or yeast is not your problem.
        •if it does help, then you have an easy choice going forward because you are already doing what helps.

      Last edited on Sat Jan 6th, 2018 03:30 by jrfoutin

      scooker48
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      https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2667071?redirect=true

      Association Between Calcium or Vitamin D Supplementation and Fracture Incidence in Community-Dwelling Older Adults
      A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis

      Rico
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      Does the Vitamin D amount from ergosterol show up as Vitamin D2 in a blood test and not D3? e.g. beer

      Prof Trevor Marshall
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      Only if the body hasn't converted it to D3. The presence of D2 does require a food source, the lack of it is not proof of absence :)

      So if you have measurable D2 level it is from supplementation. Perhaps beer, mushrooms, fortified eggs - you know - the usual culprits :) :)

      mvanwink5
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      If indeed the body does convert D2 to D3 easily, perhaps high serum D3 levels could be a result of fungi. For me, I never saw D2 levels above non detectable. Then that (fungi) could have been the source of my interminable high levels of serum D3 that I struggled with. I suspected fungi or bacteria, but never saw telltale levels of D2.

      Rico, have you stopped eating from food sources that are fed from feed stores? My brother was telling me about the feed for his chickens that increases 'healthy' omega3. The feed likely also increases D2 or D3.

      You are just going to have to face it and avoid iffy food sources. IMO.

      Rico
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      I've gone vegetarian. And have stopped eating bread (other than the occasional vegie pizza).

      My D2 level measured in December was 1.1 ng/ml. My D3 was 36.3 ng/ml.

      So what does that tell me?

      mvanwink5
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      Grass fed cheese I assume. I recorded weekly my attempt to get D3 serum levels down. Shampoos, no skin lotions, only whole foods where there were no additives. Then after nearly 3 years it started to fall, then it took 4 months to drop to therapeutic zone once it started to drop, and IP rose with it.

      I would say that you should see it fall in 3 months if there is no dietary intake. If it does not, then IMO it is a bacteria or fungus. Keep the olmesartan up. Shield yourself from RF. That should deal with the Microbiome a lot faster than what I experienced (did not know about RF).

      When the D3 serum levels start to fall you will know it... IP

      That is what I think.

      Rico
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      Is my Vitamin D2 considered "measurable"? Sounds negligible compared to the D3. Does that mean that the D3 source is strictly from animal products?

      mvanwink5
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      Your D2 is not an issue 1 for D2 vs 36 for D3. 36 is very high, mine usually ran 30 ng/ml. My D2 was never given a number (might have been 1 ng/ml but was just reported as below measurement accuracy), but your test may be sensitive enough to record 1 ng/ml.

      When did you stop the chicken? A month ago? And when was your test?

      Rico
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      I stopped all meat about 3 weeks ago. Bread about 2 weeks ago. Blood sample was taken Dec 18. The test was done Dec 29.

      The MPKB states the following:

      25 D3 – synthesized on human skin when exposed to light; enters the body when a person consumes animal products that contain vitamin D
      25 D2 – enters the body when a person consumes plants or fungi that contain vitamin D


      I thought beer would only affect the Vitamin D2 level and since mine is very low, have had a couple of drafts over the last 2 weeks or so. Didn't know that D2 can convert to D3. Guess I'd better stop beer intake right away as well.

      So in my case, since my D2 is low, I can't make any assumptions where my D3 source is from. It could be converted D2 from fortified or unfortified plants/fungi, or animal products as D3.

      mvanwink5
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      If the non grass fed protein was the source, your diet change would not show up in your last test. At 36 ng/ml I would suspect it will take 3 months for the serum 25D levels to start dropping. Ceasing beer would also be wise, really sorry to say that.

      Markt9452
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      My understanding is that the organic and grass fed meat in Canada is fortified with

      Vitamin D that is in the salt portion of the animals diet.

      IMO - The Canadian Government in their wisdom has approved Vitamin D for use in

      Organics as a "vitamin". :)

      Rico
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      This page from the Canada Food Inspection Agency

      http://www.inspection.gc.ca/food/information-for-consumers/fact-sheets-and-infographics/irradiation/eng/1332358607968/1332358680017

      reports the following about irradiated food ...

      To date, the following products have been approved by Health Canada for irradiation: potatoes, onions, wheat, flour, whole wheat flour, whole and ground spices, and dehydrated seasoning preparations

      Does that mean these food items might be problematic?

      Ron
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      From that page:

      "Three different types of radiation are allowed: Gamma rays, X-rays and electron beam radiation."

      "preventing sprouting".? :shock: I think that is awful and foolish, taking out the life energy of fresh food!

      Rico
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      I mean as far as Vitamin D production. In the MPKB, I see this:

      By 1934, the irradiation process was extended to produce vitamin D–fortified milk
      https://mpkb.org/home/food/vitamind/vitamin_d_supplementation_policy

      I've also read about irradiating mushrooms and yeast (for bread) and they're on the list of foods to avoid. Does irradiating any food cause the production of Vitamin D?

      mvanwink5
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      My understanding is that the organic and grass fed meat in Canada is fortified with Vitamin D that is in the salt portion of the animals diet.

      Nasty. So sorry to hear that. Nothing is safe. Fortunately, at least for the time being the Amish are not doing that.

      Markt9452
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      IMHO - They are ALL doing that !!! :(

      The D is in the salt blocks from what I was told and everybody uses those.

      Last edited on Thu Jan 18th, 2018 19:18 by Markt9452

      scooker48
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      https://www.dovepress.com/vitamin-d-and-vitamin-d-receptor-levels-in-children-with-attention-def-peer-reviewed-article-NDT

      Vitamin D and vitamin D receptor levels in children with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder

      Rico
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      Serum vitamin D and vitamin D receptor levels and calcium, phosphorus, and alkaline phosphatase were measured. The vitamin D receptor levels in the serum were measured using the quantitative sandwich enzyme immunoassay technique.

      Are VDR levels a good measure for Th1 disease? Is this a blood test and is it widely accessible?

      scooker48
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      Rico,
      They used biochemical measures.

      However, they also write:

      "Alterations in the cortico-striato-thalamic circuits and
      cerebellum through brain imaging studies to shed light on
      the etiology of ADHD and the presence of VDR in these
      regions have guided us through this study.

      Dmitry
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      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19264720/

      Breastfeeding does not protect against urinary tract infection in the first 3 months of life, but vitamin D supplementation increases the risk by 76%.

      Overall, our results indicate that breastfeeding does not protect against the development of UTI, but that vitamin D supplementation increases UTI risk by nearly 2-fold. Most of this increased risk was attributable to vitamin D supplementation of bottle-fed infants, raising concerns that the increased UTI risk with vitamin D supplementation may be dose dependent. Of note, the increased risk of UTI is not limited to cases of hypervitaminosis D; it is seen in infants receiving standard, over-the-counter vitamin D supplements. We do not know if our findings can be extended to older children or adults. Given the severity of UTI in this age group, and the potential for life-threatening complications (sepsis, kidney damage), caution is recommended with use of vitamin D supplements. In the absence of proven benefit for higher doses of vitamin D supplementation, we would recommend using the minimum dose required to prevent rickets, if supplementation is to be recommended at all.

      Last edited on Thu Feb 22nd, 2018 11:53 by Dmitry

      mvanwink5
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      Rickets myth is still taught in medical schools even today. Sad.

      Rico
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      Hooray!!

      I finally got my 25D down. I went cold turkey with a mostly vegetarian diet and no bread for about 2.5 months. In December, it measured 36 ng/ml and by mid March it went down to 20.

      My wife and daughter eat the same bread I did and their 25D levels are below 10, so I suspect it's at least one of the meats I've been eating that's th culprit. If I had to guess, I would say it's chicken and/or pork but I ate more chicken than other meat. I cheated only a few times with meat, bread, egg (with yolk) and beer so I'm guessing the less cheating I do, the lower the 25D will be. I think I may introduce beef once in a while to see if the 25D increases but will continue on a primarily vegetarian diet with little bread.

      The unexpected benefit of this change is that I've also lost 10 lbs. I was slightly overweight before and am now in the target range.

      Prof Trevor Marshall
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      :)

      Markt9452
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      The organic and Grass fed Meats are all spiked with Vitamin D as it is classified as a

      "vitamin" and put into the vitamin supplements that all the farmers use.

      The Canadian Organic Regime does not understand that vitamin d is a steroid probably

      because they did not bother to check exactly what it is and it is approved so the cattle

      etc. do not get rickets. :)

      Rico
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      I didn't eat organic meat for the most part. Tried it a few times but was discouraged by all the organic farms telling me that the feed contained Vitamin D. Don't know if the amounts are significant or not but didn't want to take a chance.

      Then again, I don't know if the mass-produced non-organic meat has Vitamin D or not but I think some of it does.

      Dmitry
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      Some data on D content in various meats:
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3941824/table/tbl1/

      From: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3941824/
      (Natural Vitamin D Content in Animal Products)

      Cairo123
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      As I understand it there is a difference between being 100% grass fed and being organic. It is possible to be one and not the other. If the meat is 100% grass fed you do not need to worry about what the animal ate. It eats only one thing and that is grass. You do not need to worry about feed with added D because there is no feed. They graze on grass and eat nothing else. I am not privy to all the standards for organic. I know some of them. The animal cannot be given growth hormones and most anti-biotics. It cannot be fed GMOs. It can eat other things than grass such as grain as long as it is not GMO. It cannot be exposed to herbicides and pesticides. The ideal is to get meat that is both 100% grass fed and organic. That way you can be sure that it ate only grass. Also, you can be assured that there are no grains, GMOs, herbicides, pesticides, growth hormones, or anti-biotics.
      The link below may help explain:

      https://www.texasgrassfedbeef.com/grass-fed-meat-education/grass-fed-meat-explained

      Last edited on Fri Mar 23rd, 2018 21:06 by Cairo123

      Rico
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      It's possible that in northern areas such as Canada, that grass-fed cattle is supplemented with minerals and vitamins in the winter, especially if they spend most of their time inside. Can't discount anything.

      Cairo123
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      If they are fed hay in the winter that may still qualify as grass fed because as I understand it hay is dried grass. However, if they are supplemented with anything else that may disqualify as 100% grass fed.


      https://www.humaneitarian.org/uncategorized/pasture-raised-vs-grass-fed-whats-the-difference/#.WrXLpGczWUk

      https://www.prevention.com/eatclean/grass-fed-meat

      Last edited on Sat Mar 24th, 2018 02:48 by Cairo123

      mvanwink5
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      100% grass fed is the only thing I trust. Others may have luck with other quality produce, but i stick to what has given consistent results. Maybe I have no sense of adventure.

      Last edited on Sat Mar 24th, 2018 03:39 by mvanwink5

      Markt9452
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      Every Cattle Farmer I talked to would not dream of not using a mineral supplement and

      I am talking about the most hard core Green Natural Folks around.  IMO - They all use a

      mineral supplement in Canada.

      Walleyeguy
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      http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0040692
      interesting

      davidmac
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      Older Americans Are Hooked On Vitamins Despite Scarce Evidence They Work

      Joyful
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      Walleyeguy wrote: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0040692
      interesting

      Thanks for that article. ("Effect of Vitamin D Supplementation on Mycobacterium tuberculosis-Induced Innate Immune Responses in a Canadian Dené First Nations Cohort").

      scooker48
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      Excess 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D (1,25D) is not converted to 25-hydroxyvitamin D (25D); thus, high 1,25D levels may be accompanied by low 25D values.

      https://www.dovepress.com/the-vitamin-d-receptor-and-the-etiology-of-rantesccl-expressive-fatty--peer-reviewed-article-IJGM

      The vitamin D receptor and the etiology of RANTES/CCL-expressive fatty-degenerative osteolysis of the jawbone: an interface between osteoimmunology and bone metabolism

      Last edited on Fri Apr 27th, 2018 17:15 by scooker48

      be-well
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      I believe the secosteroid image refers to Vitamin D3 and the diagram shows how little difference there is in the mechanisms of both. How can this understanding be overlooked in general medicine ?

      davidmac
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      Prof. Marshall,

      Just saw your new Youtube video, "Vitamin-D: Why Does it 'Work' So Well?" It seems that it is accepted by the mainstream scientific community that humans evolved white skin in order to be able to produce more vitamin D in northern latitudes. This I think was the gist of the questioner at the 21 min. mark.

      But I think there is actually no evidence that white skin evolved in response to the humans bodies need for vitamin D - just "scientist" filling in their preconceived notions about the human need for vitamin D and applying it to evolution to make their theory fit.

      It seems to me that the reason behind evolutionary traits are complex and multifaceted (New gene variants reveal the evolution of human skin color). It's a sad state as to what is accepted as science based on nothing more than an idea with zero evidence to support it.

      Best,
      David

      P.S. - You answered that guys question brilliantly! ;)

      Last edited on Wed Jun 20th, 2018 00:09 by davidmac

      Sallie Q
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      davidmac wrote: It seems to me that the reason behind evolutionary traits are complex and multifaceted (New gene variants reveal the evolution of human skin color). It's a sad state as to what is accepted as science based on nothing more than an idea with zero evidence to support it...polar bears are white: presumably at some stage their victims did not run away in time, so they got more lunch than brown bears during the ice age
      Europeans have more whiteness expressed, as equally they would both hunt and be hunted across snowfields ...

      mvanwink5
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      Melanin was an adaptation to protect the skin from UV damage, and in cold climates clothes were worn so less need for the melanin. I dunno, evolutionary arguments can be endless.

      Prof Trevor Marshall
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      Be-well, if you look at the secosteroid ring B, which has one side missing, and rotate around ring A you can see that it has a lot more flexibility than the 4-ringed structure, but that one of the things it can do is fit into the same place as the standard steroid. Thus, in actuality, it is even more ubiquitous than a normal steroid, with many more targets :)

      I demonstrated this at the very end of my FDA presentation in 2005-ish.

      mvanwink5
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      The idea that the secosteroid 25D is 'mild' and not deadly potent was made clear to me when my 25D serum levels fell below 11 ng/ml, then fell some more. It nearly put me into the hospital from nausea, diarrhea caused dehydration.

      What is considered mild is because the addition of D from an already suppressed immune system at +20 ng/ml to higher serum levels is a misleading change from suppressed to more suppressed, the 'S' shaped curve.

      be-well
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      You have clarified my understanding Dr Marshall. I thought of the standard steroid, (prednisone for example) as equal to the action of 'vitamin' d, but now I see that seco 'vitamin' D is much bigger trouble. It really motivates me to want to shout it from the roof tops.

      mpdayxday
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      https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/18/business/vitamin-d-michael-holick.html
      "In an interview, he said that working for Quest for four decades — he is currently paid $1,000 a month — hasn’t affected his medical advice. "

      Cowgirl
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      Greetings, MP Land: Found this article on the great Vitamin D HOAX. About time, eh? Wanted to be sure "WE" all got to read it!

      https://www.healthleadersmedia.com/strategy/man-who-sold-america-vitamin-d-�-and-profited-process

      Cheers!
      Cowgirl

      Rico
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      That URL didn't work for me but this one did:

      https://www.healthleadersmedia.com/strategy/man-who-sold-america-vitamin-d-%E2%80%94-and-profited-process

      Last edited on Tue Aug 21st, 2018 00:52 by Rico

      jrfoutin
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      The articles are essentially the same message, that D supplementation and testing was a hoax.

      However, since this has hit mainstream (NY Times and their reprint group), It may be an ideal time to submit "series" discussion clarifying things the article missed, like how the D metabolism has been shown via science to function so people left standing around with piles of pills in huge D, fish oil and etc. bottles don't quickly forget and assume their condition wasn't part of the hoax.

      scooker48
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      Janet,

      I agree.

      Science has shown how the "vitamin" D metabolism functions. Those who have conditions, and ingest huge amounts of fish oil or Vit. D pills or milk! are victims of misinformation.

      Remove the offender and your body will heal slowly.

      Sherry

      jrfoutin
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      Agreed.

      Dr Marshall's May 2018 presentation is chock full of clarity.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60-VAun2R6Q

      Dmitry
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      There are even more studies in the recent years defining extracellular D25 and D1.25 as a powerful anti-inflammatory substances with a negative correlations between TLR2/TLR4 expression, pro-inflammatory cytokines and the levels of D25/D1.25.

      As an additional material for:
      https://mpkb.org/home/othertreatments/sunshine / Sunlight can be immunosuppressive

      Regulation of cytokine responses by seasonality of vitamin D status in healthy individuals
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3074219/
      Circulating concentrations of 25(OH)D3 and 1,25(OH)2D3 were higher during summer (P < 0·05) and a down-regulation of TLR-4-mediated IL-1β, IL-6, TNF-α, interferon (IFN)-γ and IL-10 production in summer was observed compared to winter (P < 0·05). The variation in cytokine response upon TLR-2 (Pam3Cys) stimulation was moderate throughout the four seasons. The repressed cytokine production during the summer months could be explained partly by the reduced cell-membrane expression of TLRs. Physiological variation in vitamin D3 status through the four seasons of the year can lead to alteration in the innate immune responses. Elevated vitamin D3 level in vivo is associated with down-regulation of cytokine response through diminished surface expression of pattern recognition receptors.



      Variation in serum vitamin D3 levels throughout the four seasons of the year.


      Variation in cytokine responses to lipopolysaccharide (LPS) stimulation during the four seasons of the year.


      Expression of (a) Toll-like receptor (TLR)-2 and (b) TLR-4 on the cell membrane of monocytes.
      Peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMC) were isolated from 15 healthy volunteers during each season.


      In conclusion, we have demonstrated for the first time that variations in innate immune response exist throughout the four seasons of the year. In summer, elevated serum vitamin D3 levels are associated with an attenuated cytokine-producing capacity attributable to a suppressed expression of TLR-2 and TLR-4.

      TLR2 and TLR4 mediated host immune responses in major infectious diseases: a review
      https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S141386701500224X
      Toll-like receptors (TLRs), especially the surface ones viz. TLR2 and TLR4 have gained immense importance due to their extreme ability of identifying distinct molecular patterns from invading pathogens. These pattern recognition receptors (PRRs) not only act as innate sensor but also shape and bridge innate and adaptive immune responses. In addition, they also play a pivotal role in regulating the balance between Th1 and Th2 type of response essential for the survivability of the host. In this work, major achievements rather findings made on the typical signalling and immunopathological attributes of TLR2 and TLR4 mediated host response against the major infectious diseases have been reviewed. Infectious diseases like tuberculosis, trypanosomiasis, malaria, and filariasis are still posing myriad threat to mankind. Furthermore, increasing resistance of the causative organisms against available therapeutics is also an emerging problem. Thus, stimulation of host immune response with TLR2 and TLR4 agonist can be the option of choice to treat such diseases in future.

      ...

      Recognition of the array of pathogens though TLRs:

      TLR4: Gram-negative bacteria, Pseudomonas aeruginosa, RSV, MMTV, Saccharomyces cerevisiae, Candida albicans, Cryptococcus neoformans, Aspergillus fumigatus, Trypanosoma cruzi, Plasmodium falciprum, Toxoplasma gondii, Leishmania major, Entamoeba histolytica, Filarial nematode, Acanthocheilonema Viteae, Taenia crassiceps

      TLR2: Gram-positive bacteria, Streptococcus B, Staphylococcus aureus, Trepanema maltophilum, Wolbachia, Borrelia burgdorferi, Staphylococcus epidermidis, Mycobacterium tuberculosis, Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Measles, Herpes, Saccharomyces cerevisiae, Candida albicans, Trypanosoma cruzi, Plasmodium falciprum, Toxoplasma gondii, Leishmania donovani, Leishmania major, Leishmana sp., Leishmania mexicana, Entamoeba histolytica, Ascaris lumbricoides, Schistosoma mansoni, Schistosoma japonicum, Taenia solium

      Last edited on Wed Aug 22nd, 2018 17:41 by Dmitry

      Sallie Q
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      In conclusion, we have demonstrated for the first time that variations in innate immune response exist throughout the four seasons of the year. In summer, elevated serum vitamin D3 levels are associated with an attenuated cytokine-producing capacity attributable to a suppressed expression of TLR-2 and TLR-4.
      Luckily, the immune suppression to be expected in summer would be somewhat offset by reduced exposure to microbial infested air indoors IMHO

      Dmitry
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      As we know, TLR9 is also suppressed(by D3)
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20435648

      TLR9 and TLR7 are used to recognize bb:

      Recognition of Borrelia burgdorferi, the Lyme disease spirochete, by TLR7 and TLR9 induces a type I IFN response by human immune cells.
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19794067

      be-well
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      'Vitamin D could help cancer patients live longer | MSUToday ... [url=https://msutoday.msu.edu/news/.../vitamin-d-could-help-cancer-patients-live-longer/']https://msutoday.msu.edu/news/.../vitamin-d-could-help-cancer-patients-live-longer/'[/url]

      This article was on the front page of The Times here in UK today and three other major UK newspapers but not on their front page.  It will no doubt cause a surge in people with chronic diseases wanting to take the vitamin D, or thinking it may be a good preventative measure. Here is the link to the original paper included with the newspaper article:
      https://ascopubs.org/doi/abs/10.1200/JCO.2019.37.15_suppl.1534)

      Last edited on Tue Jun 4th, 2019 21:07 by be-well

      Rico
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      Vitamin D fails to prevent diabetes type II in large study

      https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-diabetes-vitamin-d-idUSKCN1T82AS

      https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1900906

      davidmac
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      STUDY: FISH OIL DOES NOTHING TO BOOST BRAIN HEALTH...

      Rico
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      Great. Higher content of Vitamin D in eggs ...

      https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/06/190624111502.htm



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