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Prof Trevor Marshall
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Dan Culver's colleagues have a new paper out:

"Alveolar Macrophage Cathelicidin Deficiency in Severe Sarcoidosis"
(Barna BP, Culver DA, Kanchwala A, Singh RJ, Huizar I, Abraham S, Malur A, Marshall I, Kavuru MS, Thomassen MJ)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22759465

Of particular interest to me is that they found that TNF-alpha seems to act via SRC3 (I call SRC3 as DIST205 in my presentations), the co-activator which binds the VDR and RXR receptors together so they can transcribe cathelicidin. They conclude:

"These findings suggest that TNFα-mediated repression of SRC3 contributes to alveolar macrophage cathelicidin deficiency in severe sarcoidosis despite healthy vitD3 levels. [they mean 1,25-D levels] Deficiency of cathelicidin, a multifunctional regulator of immune cells and proinflammatory cytokines, may impede resolution of inflammation in the lungs of patients with severe sarcoidosis"

So VDR gene transcription is multifactorial - not just via the 1,25-D (Calcitriol pathway).
Just what we have been saying all along -- it is nice to have some more solid data backing up our pathogenesis...

..Trevor..

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This is exciting research.

Will anyone notify the authors of our cohort's progress and the ARE's published papers backing up the findings?

Sherry

Prof Trevor Marshall
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Sherry, I have emailed Dan Culver with a copy of our own recent paper, and will try to keep in better communication with him as we move forward, as it is clear he is no longer in lockstep with the other sarcoid pulmos...
 

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so tnf alpha blocks vdr activation? Does it meam that coffee, which also raises tnf-alpha, will block innate immunity this way?

Prof Trevor Marshall
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Well, coffee probably changes hundreds of other pathways too, but, from this study,  it would seem that anything increasing TNF-alpha would interfere with gene expression by the VDR.
 

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Dang!  So in addition to giving up D foods, nightshades, and wheat (all of which have really helped, by the way), I now have to give up that morning cup of java as well? :shock:

Pass the lettuce, please! 

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You could try Hot Chocolate. Nobody has studied that yet :) :)
 

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lol frozen water aint bad dish, especially with those heats. I cant imagine how it must be in sunny California. In Poland we have 33 celcius now. PaisleyKilt, i have always dreamed of composing no-inflammation producing diet. From what i can see, coffee, nightshade and wheat ellimination is a good start. Although i love how those things taste like too. But inflammation is what gives us physical pain in life, also mental like depression.

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wrotek wrote: I cant imagine how it must be in sunny California. In Poland we have 33 celcius now
Well, it rose to 30 degrees inside this afternoon, so I opened the windows tonight, switched on the whole-of-house fan in the hallway, and cool air is caressing me at the moment :) Thermometer says 22 C.

I am sure there are hotter spots elsewhere in California, but we are in a corner of Thousand Oaks which gets the sea breeze up the Santa Rosa Rd (and pass) and very few nights are unbearable here :) :)
 
So I am still working at full pace :) :)
 

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That's what A/C is for, although the sea breezes sound lovely! I miss the ocean.

Deb

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Paisleykilt wrote:
Dang! So in addition to giving up D foods, nightshades, and wheat (all of which have really helped, by the way), I now have to give up that morning cup of java as well? :shock:

Pass the lettuce, please!
what did nightshade and wheat ellimination do for you ?

wrotek
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dr Marshall. One Coffee a day increases tnf alpha by 28% ,is this much to affect vdr significantly?

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wrotek wrote: what did nightshade and wheat ellimination do for you ?
Hi wrotek,

Eliminating nightshades seemed to reduce joint pain.

Eliminating wheat seems to be reducing stomach/GI problems along with feeling less sluggish/fatigued overall. 

I hope I don't have to completely banish these things from my diet forever, but while I'm in recovery mode (likely the next several years), it's probably wisest to avoid them altogether.  At a recent family event, I had some processed foods with goodness-knows-what in them and felt awful for most of the week thereafter.

I lowered my coffee intake as of this morning. Will do one week at half a cup or so, then try to quit.   Sigh.  :?

Perhaps we should move this over to another thread re diet and what helps/doesn't help inflammation?

wrotek
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Paisleykilt, does not tea stimulate U enough ? I have always experienced the smell of coffee as terpentine or even worse...purines, like urine :) (ill be honest) with these worst kinds- soluble coffees. That is why i've always had an espresso fast down the drain, well pressed with enough pressure. Then it tasted well enough.

But lets go back to tnf-alpha, here is a paper i found. I finally learned to search if any study was posted before on the board, not to duplicate them.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8213262

Tumor necrosis factor alpha decreases 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 receptors in osteoblastic ROS 17/2.8 cells.


Abstract
Bone remodeling is a complex process regulated by systemic hormones, local cytokines, and growth factors. One cytokine, tumor necrosis factor alpha (TNF-alpha), is known to have potent inhibitory effects on osteoblast matrix protein production and to stimulate osteoclast recruitment. We have previously shown that TNF-alpha inhibits 1,25-(OH)2D3-stimulated synthesis of bone gla protein (BGP), an abundant and osteoblast-specific matrix constituent. We hypothesized that the mechanism of TNF-alpha action included inhibition of intracellular 1,25-(OH)2D3 receptor (VDR) number or function. To test this, the osteoblastic cell line ROS 17/2.8 was cultured in the presence or absence of TNF-alpha (100 ng/ml), and binding of [3H]1,25-(OH)2D3 to 0.3 M KCl extracts of cytosol was measured by equilibrium assay. Specific [3H]1,25-(OH)2D3 binding decreased 70%, 25 h after addition of TNF-alpha. The decrease in [3H]1,25-(OH)2D3 binding was seen by 18 h, was sustained throughout the 72 h culture period, and was greater in low-density cultures. Scatchard analysis confirmed that TNF-alpha (100 ng/ml for 24 h) caused a decrease in the number of binding sites without change in VDR affinity. Northern analysis with a VDR riboprobe revealed that the decrease in VDR occurred without a change in the 4.4 kb steady-state VDR mRNA [VDR/cyclophilin mRNA signal ratio: control, 2.25; TNF-alpha, 2.24 (24 h), 2.17 (40 h), n = 2 flasks/time point]. These results suggest that TNF-alpha action on osteoblastic cells includes an inhibitory effect on VDR number at a point distal to the synthesis of VDR mRNA.



Perhaps this can support Dr Marshall title post.

Last edited on Sat Jul 7th, 2012 14:12 by wrotek

wrotek
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Here is another paper.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=15211579

Integration of the NfkappaB p65 subunit into the vitamin D receptor transcriptional complex: identification of p65 domains that inhibit 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3-stimulated transcription.



Abstract
Resistance to the action of vitamin D (D) occurs in response to tumor necrosis factor-alpha (TNF-alpha), an effect mediated by nuclear factor kappa B (NfkappaB). To determine the mechanism of NfkappaB inhibition of D-stimulated transcription, chromatin immunoprecipitation assays (CHIP) were done in osteoblastic ROS 17/2.8 cells that had been treated with TNF-alpha or transfected with the p65 subunit of NfkappaB. These treatments caused stable incorporation of p65 into the transcription complex bound to the vitamin D response element (VDRE) of the osteocalcin promoter. Deletion analysis of p65 functional domains revealed that the p65 N-terminus and a midmolecular region were both required for the inhibitory action of p65. Pull-down assays were done using an immobilized glutathione S-transferase (GST)-VDR fusion protein to study the effect of p65 on VDR binding to steroid coactivator-1 (SRC-1), a major D-dependent coactivator. p65 inhibited VDR-SRC-1 binding in a dose-dependent manner. Mutations of p65 that abrogated the inhibitory effect on D-stimulated transcription also failed to inhibit VDR-SRC-1 binding. The inhibitory effect of p65 on VDR transactivation was not due to recruitment of a histone deacetylase (HDAC), since inhibition was not relieved by the HDAC inhibitors sodium butyrate or trichostatin A. Overexpression of SRC-1 or the general coactivators, Creb binding protein or SRC-3, also failed to relieve p65 inhibition of transcription. In addition, Chip assays revealed that TNF-alpha treatment prevented D recruitment of SRC-1 to the transcription complex. These results show that TNF-alpha inhibition of vitamin D-action includes stable integration of p65 in the VDR transcription complex. Once anchored to proteins within the complex, p65 disrupts VDR binding to SRC-1, thus decreasing the efficiency of D-stimulated gene transcription.

Copyright 2004 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

PMID: 15211579 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Last edited on Sat Jul 7th, 2012 14:26 by wrotek

Prof Trevor Marshall
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Wrotek, there is great molecular complexity in these two papers. Can you get your mind around it? In any case it is still an acknowledged subset of the relevant Interactome space.

I am asking because if I get involved in trying to explain exactly what these abstracts are saying, I will have to go back over a lot of basic, as well as advanced molecular biology, and I am not sure whether I might confuse you even more.

Maybe you can give a quick precis of what you think they say, and I can then focus on the parts which most need clarification.

..Trevor..

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Nope i dont think i can do that Dr Marshall, but i appreciate Your faith in me. It is all over my head.

All i can understand is the simple interactions.

Tnf alpha disturbs VDR.

I am not qualified.

But I can Always assist You to find similar papers.

Well ok i might think i know something, but that was incorrect many times . :)

For example this

Scatchard analysis confirmed that TNF-alpha (100 ng/ml for 24 h) caused a decrease in the number of binding sites without change in VDR affinity


decrease in binding sites ?

Last edited on Sat Jul 7th, 2012 15:44 by wrotek

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I am trying to bend my Lyme fogged mind around all this, but in VERY simple terms are the papers saying that if I drink coffee I am actually helping knock out my innate immune system?

If that's wrong, please correct me, but I just had a bit of an epiphany: I didn't start drinking coffee until about age 35  - and that is when I started to have some serious health issues. 

Coincidence or Coffee uptake?!?  :shock:

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Mornings won't be very pleasant if I have to quit my 1 cup of coffee a day.

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wrotek wrote: Paisleykilt, does not tea stimulate U enough ? I have always experienced the smell of coffee as terpentine or even worse...purines, like urine :) (ill be honest) with these worst kinds- soluble coffees. That is why i've always had an espresso fast down the drain, well pressed with enough pressure. Then it tasted well enough.


 

Being a Brit, I was raised on tea, so I never got into the habit of drinking coffee until I worked at a place where the breaks were too short to make tea. The coffee pot was always on, so one day I caved and started drinking the stuff even though I did not like the taste. The aroma was okay. 

However, I never became addicted to anything as quickly as I became addicted to coffee!  I don't smoke and drink alcohol only moderately, but coffee?  Oh man, I needed to go to Coffaholics Anonymous!  :(  It took a long time to get down to one cup a day, which I thought was okay on the MP....

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hello,

I was a heavy cofee drinker. 5 cups per day was not uncommen. A month ago ( before this thread was giving the message, I stoped coffe, to get rid of the constant slumbering headache. The result is that the head ache is less, but not gone, but energy is much more. I do not need to cofee anymore. For the night shades I do not eat them for a long time. As this is the food that was in europa tousand and more years ago, roman cookbooks can help you with lots of good recepies. With the good care of my wife I only gain weight instead of losing it because of uneatable bad food.

erik ( roelof)

Pamela H-F
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How is cathelicidin measured? Is it something that can be checked to determine how seriously ill you are?

Pam

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Interesting idea, i think, to measure it. Would be an additional confirmation of a disease process.

Last edited on Fri Jul 13th, 2012 14:01 by wrotek

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"How is it measured?"

Good question Pamela H-F.

This is what I got from the abstract of the article Dr Marshall linked. In simple terms there were two different types of tests used. I've bolded them here:

Bronchoalveolar lavage (BAL) cells from sarcoidosis patients and healthy controls were analyzed for mRNA expression of cathelicidin, vitamin D receptor (VDR) and the VDR coactivator steroid receptor coactivator-3 (SRC3) by quantitative PCR. Cathelicidin-derived peptide LL-37 was determined by immunocytochemistry.

PCR
Wikipedia isn't perfect, but gives a brief overview with pictures here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_polymerase_chain_reaction

Use is up to doctor and if you and your insurance want to pay for it, see Wikipedia section on: Applications of real-time polymerase chain reaction.

You can also read about PCR testing in MPKB.org:
http://mpkb.org/home/pathogenesis/microbiota/detecting#dna_and_rna_amplification_techniques

Immunocytochemistry
Also from wikipedia:
"Immunocytochemistry ... is performed on samples of intact cells that have had most, if not all, of their surrounding extracellular matrix removed. This includes cells grown within a culture, deposited from suspension, or taken from a smear."

______________

COFFEE/COCOA
I never have had one cup of coffee my entire life but managed to get Sarcoidosis anyway. Other things likely messed up my VDR and/or cathelicidin downstream from VDR, in other words.

Cocoa has been researched, some funded by the companies that sell it (sigh). One takeaway point seems to be with tryptophan/seratonin pathway. There may be others:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theobromine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_chocolate#Health

I like to think early Sarcies on the MP appreciated dark cocoa for Theobromine (bitter alkaloid) to help quell irritating sarc bark cough (dry, unproductive), or because under tongue olmesartan tastes better that way (wink).

But as alkaloids are soluble in water, maybe hot cocoa is a slightly different beast than a square of dark chocolate. I didn't eat chocolate until my 20's, although I drank hot cocoa (laced with milk and sugar no doubt) once in a while as a winter treat.

For now, I enjoy dark chocolate occasionally when I can afford it. No problem--not "taken" as a drug or supplement. Cocoa I make with water as a drink is less expensive and I make it without milk or sugar. Also no problem, but I have noticed diuretic and other positive effects per mood and dulling hunger. Too much and night foot leg cramps result.

That's while I was taking olmesartan, which is likely different from any tests ran in other studies, and purely anecdotal. I have no idea what others on MP might notice about themselves.

So mostly, I think of it is a nice inexpensive snack that doesn't bother my sleep per caffeine (amount of caffeine in cocoa is dramatically less than coffee), but might wake me with leg/foot cramps if I do it too much (tried it to see what would happen).

Your mileage may vary.

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"Bronchoalveolar lavage" doesn't sound like a lot of fun either.

I also get leg / foot cramps from dark chocolate. I just assumed it was the extra potassium and I usually take a magnesium when that happens. But then there's the chocolate laced with crunchy bits of sea salt, the salt would balance the potassium!

Deb

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roelof wrote:
hello,

I was a heavy cofee drinker. 5 cups per day was not uncommen. A month ago ( before this thread was giving the message, I stoped coffe, to get rid of the constant slumbering headache. The result is that the head ache is less, but not gone, but energy is much more. I do not need to cofee anymore. For the night shades I do not eat them for a long time. As this is the food that was in europa tousand and more years ago, roman cookbooks can help you with lots of good recepies. With the good care of my wife I only gain weight instead of losing it because of uneatable bad food.

erik ( roelof)
Very interesting that quitting coffee gave you more energy. Do you drink other sources of caffeine?

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hello wrotek,

I drink tea, but as dutch we drink weak thea. But yes it is not the coffeine that does do the evil. I do not know what it is, but not drinking cofee seems to do me good.

best regards Erik (Roelof)

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There are bugs in the tea leaves and beans. I don't know if they are significant to our GI tract, but who knows? The traditional methods of processing haven't change much in decades...

An enlightening test is to put an old used teabag in a corner and let it grow funghi over the span of a couple of weeks :)
 
 

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Dr Trevor Marshall wrote:
There are bugs in the tea leaves and beans. I don't know if they are significant to our GI tract, but who knows? The traditional methods of processing haven't change much in decades...

An enlightening test is to put an old used teabag in a corner and let it grow funghi over the span of a couple of weeks :)
 
 


Dr Marshall, do spores survive boiling process ? We would need some sort of home made amateur sterile incubation, right ?

Prof Trevor Marshall
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Used tea-bags have presumably been in the hot water :)

But we don't know, maybe the microbes are beneficial? Something has to repopulate the gut after antibiotics have been used...
 

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Interesting discussion.  Dr. Marshall, sounds like your thinking on microbes in the gut is evolving and that perhaps there is such a thing as "beneficial" microbes?

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I am not sure about "beneficial" microbes, I have still to be shown definitive evidence on that one. However 'relatively harmless' does appear to be a reachable goal :)
 

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Dr. Marshall,
If it is true that there will be gut bugs, then relatively harmless would be of great benefit, wouldn't it? Something to be said about having neighbors that aren't harmful.
Best regards,
Mike

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Wrotek,
Very interesting that quitting coffee gave you more energy.

Actually, two things people assume almost routinely to get "more energy" are drink coffee and exercise. Both of those actually can make the problem worse.

See next newsletter for more details...

Immune competency is best way to get rid of microbes, get more energy. So glad there is MP!

Best to all--Janet

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Dr Trevor Marshall wrote: Well, coffee probably changes hundreds of other pathways too, but, from this study,  it would seem that anything increasing TNF-alpha would interfere with gene expression by the VDR.
 

So this means that inflammation in this case, supresses immunity ? I think this is good question for next conference - When does the inflammation suppress immunity ? When inflammation goes hand in hand with immunity and when it starts to impair immunity ?etc...

Or maybe inflammation is bad when it is tricked to be generated by microbes, or by ingestion of some irritant like coffee, gluten, solanecae plants...whatever body responds to.

Last edited on Mon Aug 13th, 2012 12:42 by wrotek

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Your question is my question too Wrotek, and I'm also curious if it is so that inflammation supresses in fact immunity, makes me wonder in what degree...

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I think it can suppress, but that does not make sense right ? Unwanted inflammation uses energy of the body, I think, and depletes its energy in long run. Also it damages tissues. And after inflammation there should be phase of rebuilding, but if inflammation does not stop, rebuilding does not come ....

Last edited on Mon Aug 13th, 2012 12:58 by wrotek

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It does not make sense and it sounds like some way of disbalance. But why? Simplifying you can say the body always tries to reach a balance. So why disbalance? Bacteria in disguise?


I whish I understood this puzzle, but who doesn't?

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With respect to Paisley Kilt's post about an anti-inflammatory diet, I have researched this. It is easy in theory. Just drink and eat pure water and organic vegetables, with a few (preferably fresh) beans (not soy -- bad for brain and thyroid and now genetically modified) and some nuts (not peanuts due to mold).
Basically inflammatory foods are meat, dairy products, cheese, and eggs, sugar, and to a lesser degree, fish. Most grains and nightshade family vegetables are included as inflammatory.
However, any food can have an inflammatory effect on the body if one is allergic or intolerant to it. So it also depends upon one's personal sensitivities.
Current diets in developed countries are based on refined wheat, vast quantities of meat, dairy products, sugar, refined fats, and now chemicals, all of which is unprecedented in any civilization preceding us.
Most traditions over millenium have emphasized an anti-inflammatory diet for chronic illness, including the current European naturopaths. But there has been a start to put it onto a more scientific footing. A few popular books are based to varying degrees on more recent scientific evidence.
Currently, the more scientific approach tends to link an anti-inflammatory diet with body Ph. In other words, an anti-inflammatory diet is generally very similar to a diet which creates alkalizing conditions internally in the body. The degree a food is alkalizing on the body is measurable. An alkaline state in the body creates conditions which promote the parasympathic systems of the body to operate to a greater degree. The parasympathetic state is operating when one is sleeping and/or healing.
Recent research into the electrical systems of the body are also beginning, and they show that body Ph -- as in batteries -- is a critical element in the effective functioning of our electrical impulses and the way our health is impacted by these. We also know that for other life forms, the Ph of their environment is a critical factor in survival and thriving. For example, most plants must be grown in close to neutral or slightly alkaline soils, whereas blueberries, rhododendrons and azaleas require more acid soil to survive and produce well.

The important thing in determining what an alkalizing diet is, is the impact on the body subsequent to metabolizing the food. Thus foods that one classes as acidic -- such as lemons, limes, tomatoes, etc, -- actually have an alkalizing impact on body Ph. Vinegar stays very acidifying. Alkaline foods are vegetables, beans and some lentils, with wide differences between them -- ranging from strongly alkaline -- sprouts, cucumbers, avacados -- to only slightly alkaline --like potatoes. Nuts range from slightly alkaline (almonds) to slightly acidifying.
Meat is very highly acidifying, as is vinegar, hard cheese, and eggs. Fish is acidifying, but less so than meat and hard cheeses. Unripened cheese is less acidifying, but still quite inflammatory.

The only fruits which are alkalizing are lemons, limes, avacados, and tomatoes since the rest are made somewhat acidifying by the large amounts of sugar in them. Nonetheless, fruits are much less acidifying than meat, cheese, eggs, sugar, etc, and they have anti-oxidants and high level of nutrients as well. Most cereal grains are also acidifying, but again, much less than meat, vinegar etc. The only two that are not acidifying, that I know of, are buckwheat and millet (both of which are fruits or seeds rather than strictly classed as grains). I suspect that many of the new “traditional” grains that are actually classified as seeds rather than grains – like teff, amaranth and quinoa might continue to act in the body as seeds, rather than grains, when analyzed for their impact on body Ph. Thus maybe they will also be slightly alkalizing or neutral, rather than mildly acid as rice is, for example, but I have not seen the tables for these, so can not say for sure.
One of the current popular books which seeks to promote an alkalizing diet is “Sick and Tired” by Robert Young. Interestingly he used to promote pro-biotics, but has revised his advice based on his research. He now says his evidence shows that there is no intrinsic difference between “good” and “bad” bacteria. He claims to have seen “good” microbes under an electron microscope transform themselves into “bad” ones. He believes that the body Ph contributes to the state in which microbes express themselves – as beneficial or malign.

There was also a comment about whether inflammation is good or bad. I do not understand this deeply. But from what I understand of the MP, if our chronic illness is caused by cell wall deficient bacteria parasitizing macrophages, which then create inflammation to call in new white blood cells to parasitize, then inflammation in chronic illness is to be avoided. The only time I would think that inflammation would be a good thing was when white blood cells were appropriately killing invading bacteria. In general, that would be more self-limiting – when the bacteria were gone, the inflammation would die down. That would presumably happen only when one was either acutely ill, or on a routine, low level basis on the borders of our bodies with the environment – gut, respiratory system, skin, other mucus membranes. In such cases, we don’t need extraneous sources of inflammation from food to fight these battles. Our immune system will ramp an appropriate attack when needed – provided it has not been sabotaged by cell wall deficient bacteria inside our immune cells. Thus, if we have chronic inflammation, this is not a good thing, and a diet which aggravates it, is also not good thing for our health. But if we were to cut our hand with a rusty nail, we would benefit from some inflammation for a short time, until it heals. Our bodies, if not already overburdened by inflammation would produce enough white blood cells without us needing to eat inflammatory substances to do so. Maybe someone with more expertise than I can correct me if this understanding about inflammation is incorrect in some details above.

In any case, the main difficulty with following an anti-inflammatory diet is that in our society our taste buds have been so corrupted that we use food as an entertainment, rather than purely nourishment. What I find helps is to use spices and fresh herbs to give taste and interest to healthy alkalizing foods -- but that may not be enough for many people who have not worked at it extensively.

What I do notice is that when I eat meat, cheese, sugar, etc I am subject to muscle cramps which I have to combat by taking magnesium. When I eat alkaline consistently, the muscle cramps completely disappear since I am no longer buffering my internal chemistry with alkalizing salts drawn from my muscles and bones.
LR

Last edited on Thu Aug 16th, 2012 14:38 by LR

Prof Trevor Marshall
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Oh Noes ! :) But I love my (imported) cheese :)

wrotek
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It would be nice to know where does the personalized sensitivity to particular foods come from. Why one organism reacts this way to certain food and other organism does not.


I am not lactose intolerant for example, i could be drinking milk without problem.

Last edited on Fri Aug 17th, 2012 03:24 by wrotek

LR
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Even if you are not allergic to milk or sensitive to lactose, it is nonetheless inflammatory.

However, I think your real question is how do people become sensitive to foods. The medical research on this is extensive. You could probably check out Dr. William Rae's textbooks on Chemical Sensitivity in 4 volumes, which I believe covers food sensitivities. Dr. Rae is probably the most prominent physician alive working on sensitivities from his clinic in Dallas.

One conventional answer is that when people do not digest their foods properly (whether due to junk food, celiac disease, or other causes), the particles do not break down sufficiently and pass through into the bloodstream in units which trigger the antibodies to treat them as invaders. I do not believe this is a complete answer. It might be true for some cases though. Other theories include environmental toxins altering hormonal and other systems, breaking down their integrity. There are others. I have been meaning to read Dr. Rae's texts for many years now, in which case I might be able to give a better answer! Just have not had time! : )

With respect to treatment of sensitivities, the main approach, (aside from curing the underlying problems with the innate immune system via the MP) is to calm the antibodies storm down by reducing the total load. This calls for eliminating as much stress on your systems as possible, by eliminating to the extent possible chemicals in your air food and water, avoiding any airborn, touch, or edible triggers of these antibodies (whether IgE IgG, IgM or other) to the extent possible, getting rid of bacterial, fungal or viral infections to the extent possible .

IT does work. Once your antibody storms have subsided you can reintroduce problematic foods slowly and carefully. I was what is popularly called a "universal reactor" with respect to food sensitivities 30 years ago (ie there were no foods left that I had eaten before that I could tolerate). I could only eat one food a day and not repeat it for 5 days, and it had to be something I had not eaten before I got sick. However within about 3 years after starting to address it correctly -- through dedicated avoidance, detoxification and a host of other approaches, I was able to start reintroducing foods, and now can eat basically anything. Not that I eat junk now or I would probably go downhill rapidly, but any healthy food. Also chemicals do not have drastic effects on my mental and physical capacities anymore either. Same with pollens. No asthma for the past 25 years, although the rest of my family, whose allergies were much less debilitating -- just hayfever, asthma and a few food sensitivties-- all use puffers for asthma and pills for hayfever and continue with major problems with allergies.

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LR wrote: Basically inflammatory foods are meat, ...

Current diets in developed countries are based on refined wheat, vast quantities of meat, ...

Most traditions over millenium have emphasized an anti-inflammatory diet for chronic illness, ...


I have to take strong exception to these statements, tho I won't argue about any inflammatory effects of meat.  You are setting up for putting meat on your 'BAD' list.  This is nonsense.  Prior to the agricultural revolution, meat was the preferred food, even to the extent that the Inuits eat nothing but meat and fat for most of the year and often all of the year.  They had excellent health until the introduction of civilized food, containing loads of carbohydrates,  Same with the Maasai.  You ask anyone that is an expert on pre-agricultural populations, and they will tell you that most of our diseases we call modern diseases did not exist in pre-agricultural populations.

I am personally now committed to a very low carbohydrate life style because I consider it the healthiest way to live, and I am aghast at the enormous amounts of carbohydrates offered in main course foods sold at the grocery stores, with so little added meat where even in these dishes there should be some meat.  Go to restaurants, and try to sift thru the menu for a high meat dish.  Sure, steaks are offered, and steak houses exist, but these are not the common fair for most people, but the treat.  You and those you read may think that people are eating loads of meat, but that is not what I see.

Cynthia

mvanwink5
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Pro and con meat dietary theories, it seems they are never ending. Why is that? Sounds like more pseudo science to me.

Best regards,
Mike

scooker48
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And is dark chocolate also guilty of causing high acidity?

I fear it is...

Sherry

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Say it ain't so!

Prof Trevor Marshall
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I personally prefer Cadbury's Dairy Milk (a white chocolate). Unfortunately the stuff made by Hershey's in the US is not as good as the real stuff I buy when I am travelling in Europe or Australia, but, oh well...
 
Dove milk chocolate isn't too bad, either. And it is really cheap to buy in China...
 
Didn't eat any chocolate when I went to Russia last month. No idea what they have there, yet. Maybe next time...
 

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Hi,

I am not sure that pure unsweetened dark chocolate is acidic as it is not in the tables I have. But as soon as you add any sugar, it goes into the fairly strongly acidic category. The reason I am not sure about dark chocolate itself is that it is a bean and generally beans are alkalizing.

What I do sometimes is use unsweetened dark chocolate and add stevia to whatever I am making --whether hot cocoa or something else with chocolate. Stevia can be obtained either as a green herb or as an extracted white powder. It has been used for thousands of years in South America safely, and used in Japan for decades. Research indicates that it is actually beneficial for diabetics (and not just because it means that they can avoid sugar) -- but the beneficial effect is very mild and not a cure unfortunately. If you do try Stevia, try to get a brand that has no bitter after-taste. There are brands like that now. The older extracts used to be good only to a certain point, and then you had to add a drop of honey or maple syrup to get the sweetness all the way up without getting any bitter taste. That still allowed you to eliminate 9/10s of the sugar.

Another way to use unsweetened chocolate is in a mole sauce without sugar. Didn't think I'd like chocolate without sweetener, but I made a spicy mole sauce and it was great.

Last edited on Sat Aug 18th, 2012 13:26 by LR

leroybrown
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You know what? I actually grew stevia in a pot in the backyard one summer. The leaves tasted sweet. It grew easily.

Deb

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Yes, me too. I dried the leaves and I use them in tea and other things too.

It grows easily and rapidly in summer, but is not a perennial in Canada. As a South American plant, I guess it needs more heat than we get in our winters!

I guess you can try bringing it inside in a pot in fall, but I am not sure it would survive low light conditions in houses, so did not bother to try. I stick with perennials for the most part, as I don't want to go to the expense of buying annuals that are only going to last one season.

But it was nice to have the fresh leaves and also to have some to dry.

Last edited on Sun Aug 19th, 2012 17:16 by LR



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