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Prof Trevor Marshall
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I just watched a video from Prof Yehuda Shoenfeld, editor-in-chief of Autoimmunity Reviews, co-editor of Journal of Autoimmunity, and arguably the 'father of autoimmunity' (behind only Sir Macfarlane Burnet and Prof Noel Rose).

He is stating the message that we ourselves set out to propagate in 2003 - that all 'autoimmune disease' has a common mechanism. He does it well, and from a position of authority. Here is the video - and I hope you enjoy watching it as much as I did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM5B6EAhc6I

Watch it with your family and friends...

..Trevor..

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The Video Dr. Marshall has linked is only a fraction of the whole interview, obviously on youtube in several little videos, short enough, so that everyone can follow them.

However, this fraction here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-9YkjctcmU
contains a very interesting vision of Prof. Shoenfeld at 1:29. He uses the word cure in connection with autoimmunity. Put in quotation marks, but it is there. Loud and clear.

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Do you happen to know his position on CFS - does he think that is an autoimmune illness ?

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As a young girl, I recall reading about a famous nurse who claimed, and I paraphrase, "there is but one human disease, with many different manifestations". 

I puzzled about it at the time, being about 10 years old, but stuck it away in my brain.  I am not sure who said it, or the exact wording, but it's the same idea:  the immune system is  compromised and the bacteria/fungus/virus interfere with our health.

Yes, we have come full circle.  But this time, the concept will not be lost in dusty books in a library:  it will be hopefully picked up and used to tackle human diseases.

Sherry

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"There are no specific diseases only specific disease conditions"---Florence Nightingale.

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Now if only I can get my sister with MS to watch this and understand that she and I have the same disease with a different manifestation. Thanks Dr. M!

Last edited on Mon Jul 1st, 2013 07:21 by GillyB

Ron
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Verena wrote: However, this fraction here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-9YkjctcmU
contains a very interesting vision of Prof. Shoenfeld at 1:29. He uses the word cure in connection with autoimmunity. Put in quotation marks, but it is there. Loud and clear.

I also like this one, at 0:54: "The best therapy is avoidance". :dude:

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Ron wrote
I also like this one, at 0:54: "The best therapy is avoidance". :dude:

So.... another reason to take part in the Nice congress. He might tell us what to avoid in order not to catch an autoimmunedisease.

Last edited on Mon Jul 1st, 2013 11:11 by Verena

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I bet Shoenfeld will not tell us to avoid Vitamin D. :?

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Do you happen to know his position on CFS - does he think that is an autoimmune illness ?

There are specific autoantibodies associated with CFS/ME, so a good rheumatologist will generally accept that it is an autoimmune condition. The antibodies are detailed in our recent paper:

http://AutoimmunityResearch.org/preprints/2013-Lindseth-ImmunologicResearch.pdf

or the simplified presentation transcript:

http://autoimmunityresearch.org/transcripts/Auto2012_IngeLindseth.pdf

don't forget the video at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IMdAV6SIMU

..Trevor..



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Para phrasing, Shoenfeld says when treatment is started for one auto immune disease, other problems improve. Can I assume he is talking about using immune suppressants?

He lists environment and genetics for differing symptoms, but said nothing about infection. Perhaps his talk about finding drugs to treat is clouding his judgment as he no doubt would like to be involved in finding a block buster drug for autoimmunity.

Cynthia

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I wondered about some of the same things as Cynthia as I listened to the presentation.

Prof Trevor Marshall
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Cynthia, when he is talking about symptoms improving he means immediately, due to the use of immunosuppressives such as methotrexate and prednisone. Recently, high dose Vit-D supplementation has been used to give the patients relief.

There are so many paradigm shifts needed between the way that Modern Medicine thinks about disease, and helping patients, and what is needed if we are to overcome the surge in chronic disease. The surge is currently growing faster than any nation's ability to control it with immunosuppression. But what else can they use? There is nothing else... (until TPTB learn to use Google...)


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Thanks for your reply on CFS/ME antibodies - maybe the new place in London will be able to screen for thsee one day...

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Research methodology is so important; getting people to look at old problems with new eyes. I think Dr Gordon Rugg has a handle on the problem and he has even formulated a method to discover just what methodological mistakes are being made (hence better ways to go about research!)  We need people like him working on our topic.
http://www.keele.ac.uk/scm/staff/academic/drgordonrugg/

Prof Trevor Marshall
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Claudia, many of my Russian colleagues have not discarded the old research methodologies :) That is why it is so stimulating to talk with them - and learn from them. Several have been around a very long time - they were already considered 'experts' when they were called in to look after the Chernobyl survivors :)

Have you seen the video I posted yesterday?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7PfrkhsKEc
 
..Trevor..

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Dr. Marshall,
In reference to the May 16 St. Petersburg State University talk question about the microbiome being in a constant flux, wouldn't it be worthwhile to address the intracellular microbiome separately? Wouldn't it be more likely that the intracellular microbiome is fairly stable? The supposition that intracellular microbiome is largely stable comes from the MP position that the intracellular pathogens are slow growing and the gradual nature of their seeming accumulation over decades. Furthermore the intracellular microbiome are largely isolated from the more dynamic changes in the body by the cell walls and usual intracellular organelle membranes that bacteria hide behind.

Best regards
Mike

Last edited on Wed Jul 3rd, 2013 11:42 by mvanwink5

Prof Trevor Marshall
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Yes, Mike, I could have answered that question better, I think. The phagocytic cells have a limited life (a few weeks), and have to frequently propagate microbial communities from old to new cells, so there is significant possibility they may be affected by the microbes in the bloodstream (which are presumably in flux from the GI tract).

In any case, it seems that many of the GI tract microbes, those in the cells of the GI epithelium, are pretty persistent. If you flush out a person's GI tract with antibiotics, most of the same species tend to reappear, over time (I think it was Dave Relman's presentation in Seattle where I saw that).
 

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Dr. Marshall,
As an exception though, I don't understand why a Salmonella GI infection has such a prolonged and radical clear cutting affect on the gut microbe spectrum. Pharma must be envious.

As to your question response, and perhaps to the contrary, I thought your answer was rather diplomatic. Also, It always seems impressive that you don't lose your train of thought with the translation breaks.
Best regards

Prof Trevor Marshall
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mvanwink5 wrote: I don't understand why a Salmonella GI infection has such a prolonged and radical clear cutting affect on the gut microbe spectrum.
Well, isn't Salmonella one of the persistent intraphagocytic pathogens? It seems to be, at least in pigs...

http://www.veterinaryresearch.org/content/42/1/118

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Oh my, so is it possible Salmonella prolongs its GI flora impact by a rapid intracellular invasion and significant modification of intracellular microbiota? Is that right thinking?

I now remember the news article about Salmonella porcine proliferation triggered by slaughter house cortisol release. Article release in 2011, that sounds about right. I am not sure I connected it to Salmonella proliferation caused by quorum triggering via stress hormones. I do now.

The pin ball machine has lit up.

Prof Trevor Marshall
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Yup...

mvanwink5
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Dr. Marshall,
Dr Trevor Marshall wrote:
Well, isn't Salmonella one of the persistent intraphagocytic pathogens? It seems to be, at least in pigs...
mvanwink5 wrote: so is it possible Salmonella prolongs its GI flora impact by a rapid intracellular invasion and significant modification of intracellular microbiota? Is that right thinking?
Answer:Yup...
I can only infer that without olmesartan supported VDR activation, there is no hope against Salmonella intracellular efficacy in humans, especially since Salmonella can persist in pigs where the VDR is not the key to intracellular AMP innate immune protection.

This being the case, that there are pathogens such as Salmonella with such a broad intracellular innate immunity, It would seem that olmesartan is essential for humans, even healthy humans. Dr. Marshall, have you reached the same conclusion?

If so, that would be an important position to take on health maintenance and disease prevention.

One more question, would one expect that with a healthy person who is taking olmesartan dosed at 40 mg q4h plus serum 25D levels below suppressive levels, that is exposed to Salmonella, that the long term impact on gut flora spectrum would be avoided? One could then raise serum 25D levels and see what that does. Wouldn't that be a definitive research test?
Best regards
Mike

Last edited on Sun Jul 7th, 2013 04:30 by mvanwink5

Prof Trevor Marshall
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Mike,
Most people die because of "diseases of the aging." These diseases are chronic, and result from the microbiome those folk have accumulated during their lifetime. There are many steps which need to be made to reduce that accumulation. Olmesartan is certainly an intervention which could be used after failed attempts at reducing the accumulation.

You will note that I am getting very involved in "Predictive and Preventative Medicine" which focuses on this very issue. Stopping people getting ill in the first place. We have many decades of work ahead of us, I think.

..Trevor..

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However, it is a test that doesn't take a decade, would be repeatable, and supports the model. Plus it would be relatively inexpensive. It might not be 100% persuasive but would cast serious doubt on the D3 in, goodness and health out pragma. (I have friends that would say it is not daylight outside at high noon.)

It might also be important just to see what protection is gained for our cohort from continued olmesartan use once they have reached their target symptom reduction levels.

Just some thoughts...

Thanks,
Mike

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lncRNA - organizers of genes

How some unusual RNA molecules home in on targets


The findings suggests a unique role for a class of RNAs, called lncRNAs, which Guttman and his colleagues at the Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard first characterized in 2009. Until then, these lncRNAs -- short for long, noncoding RNAs and pronounced "link RNAs" -- had been largely overlooked because they lie in between the genes that code for proteins. Guttman and others have since shown that lncRNAs scaffold, or bring together and organize, key proteins involved in the packaging of genetic information to regulate gene expression -- controlling cell fate in some stem cells, for example.
In the new work, the researchers found that lncRNAs can easily locate and bind to nearby genes. Then, with the help of proteins that reorganize genetic material, the molecules can pull in additional related genes and move to new sites, building up a "compartment" where many genes can be regulated all at once.
"You can now think about these lncRNAs as a way to bring together genes that are needed for common function into a single physical region and then regulate them as a set, rather than individually," Guttman says. "They are not just scaffolds of proteins but actual organizers of genes."


Functional organization, then, seems to be critical for cell behavior. It would not be a stretch to suspect intracellular innate immunity to also depend on such organizing lncRNA molecules. It also would suggest another pathway for immune disruption by diabolic bacteria invasion tools.

Last edited on Sun Jul 7th, 2013 23:57 by mvanwink5

Prof Trevor Marshall
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mvanwink5 wrote: It might also be important just to see what protection is gained for our cohort from continued olmesartan use once they have reached their target symptom reduction levels.
Mike, this is the wrong way of thinking about health. IMO Health has nothing to do with symptoms, but with body functioning. My symptoms (largely) disappeared years ago, yet my body (and especially my mind) continues to incrementally function better, year by year. It is important to be able to quantify health. That is one use for Prof Poletaev's natural autoantibody testing. It is not quantifying disease, but a sensitive indicator that homeostasis is getting along just fine :)

As for molecular complexity, that has been known for some time. For example, look at at this 2007 paper: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17368181

The recent work of Eva Nogale's lab has also underlined transcriptional complexity. Download the video from her paper at

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v495/n7442/full/nature11991.html

video: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v495/n7442/fig_tab/nature11991_SV1.html

for a real eye-opener...

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So what are we to make of this ARB-produced sprue-like enteropathy?

http://www.empr.com/fda-olmesartan-linked-to-intestinal-disorder/article/301689/?DCMP=EMC-MPR_WeeklyNewsbrief&CPN=eliqcard&spMailingID=6500088&spUserID=NDExODQ4MDI2NTUS1&spJobID=77570037&spReportId=Nzc1NzAwMzcS1

Prof Trevor Marshall
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"sprue-like enteropathy"

Why are we surprised that Olmesartan has properties which the FDA was not expecting? Old-fashioned thinking is what led Mayo to identify this one result of immunopathology, and no others. Sheer incompetence is what led FDA to myopia on this one aspect of Olmesartan's actions.

Any competent researcher would have used a Google search to locate our papers on Olmesartan's actions in the GI tract, such as "Immunostimulation in the era of the Metagenome," but competence seems severely lacking in most medical research these days...

The FDA also has inches of paperwork on file from us over the last seven years detailing Olmesartan's immune activity, and, to this date, their reaction has been disbelief. Not disbelief as in "tell us more," but disbelief as in "please go away: :)

..Trevor..

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I was thinking in a similar vein. Since celiac sprue is in the realm of "autoimmune" diseases, none of US are surprised with that type of reaction to olmasartan. Next they'll spend several million tax dollars and grant money that could be well-spent elsewhere trying to figure out why this would happen with an ARB. And the drug company will now need to spend millions fighting lawsuits because of this "unexpected adverse outcome, etc."

Even though I work in medicine, I am so distant from this whole phenomena and it still bothers me. I can't imagine how much it must bother you to have spent so much of your life and career on this and have people ignore your investigations.

All I can say is thanks for the help that you have given so many of us on the MP and..... Hang in there!

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Some more news on immune stimulating therapies.

"Revolutionary" Cancer Therapy Yields Extraordinary Results In Human Trials

http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/revolutionary-cancer-therapy-yields-unprecedented-results

I'm guessing some of this is what we call IP?

It’s important to note, however, that some patients experienced severe side-effects, including neurological problems and decreases in blood pressure, which the researchers are now working towards reducing.

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so they will come smack up against the usual immune restoration dilemma...
how to ameliorate the IP without helping microbes to stealthily suppress VDR functions :?

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Dr. Marshall..... just read "Timeline for MP" and saw that you were diagnosed with Pulmonary Hypertension at the beginning of your health problems. I have just been given the same diagnosis,but I disagree with the Drs. stated cause. I have never had high blood pressure and delayed starting the MP because BP was on the low side. As you know the MP has been very good to me and I credit it with getting me this far...83 in April. I had an ECHO because for several years I have been complaining that I felt I needed oxygen, but the tests would not confirm that. I went ahead and bought an oxygen concentrator and not amazing to me I no longer have tetany and can do a full body stretch without going into a full body spasm! So that is a good thing but how can I convince these Drs. not only do I not have low blood pressure, but I take 6 arbs a day!!! I have ascertained that these symptoms come and go with my use of antibiotics and until recently I was completely off and just started back with Benicar and Roxithromycin. This is also the pattern with my Lyme and what ever other bugs(Brucella) I have. I have had lung problems (4 spontaneous pneumothorax) years ago,but that was resolved by attaching lung to pleura and after exploratory surgery deemed lung in perfect condition. I guess what I am asking is how can I convince these guys that it's bacteria!!!!!

Thanks for listening.....Dian (minski)

Prof Trevor Marshall
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Dian, I am not a physician, so to me it sounds like there could be microwave radiation entering your environment. Ask for a Sniffer, and let's discuss the readings it gives you.

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Dr. Marshall,

I know you are not an MD but considerably more intelligent than the people I have access to. I already have my order in for the sniffer. Just this morning I had an AT&T installer here to change from Time Warner and he informed me that my WiFi has not been disconnected as Time Warner assured me! He disconnected it!!!!!! So I unknowingly have had it for the last 8 months or more when I requested the removal. I long for the good old days!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dian

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That's frustrating, Dian. Those things won't happen once you have a sniffer. It's grrrrrrrrrreat.

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Y, thanks for the encouragement! It's getting harder and harder to stay positive!
Dian

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Prof Trevor Marshall wrote: Dian, I am not a physician, so to me it sounds like there could be microwave radiation entering your environment. Ask for a Sniffer, and let's discuss the readings it gives you.


and here is Prof. Marshall's practical solution:- Building a DIY Faraday Cage

Sallie Q
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oh, well, since I posted in the wrong topic, I might as well use the space; by reminding you all to keep browsing in the MPKB
More research links are continually being added, thanks to Dmitry, who keeps finding them :dude:

Last edited on Sat Feb 9th, 2019 01:53 by Sallie Q

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I am re-posting this, as both health professionals and patients need to realise that if taking less than four X 40mg doses of olmesartan daily, they are not  'on the M.P.'

MP in a nutshell


At its essence, the MP involves five key elements, each of which is supported by the latest insights in molecular science.
MP patients must:
    * wean off any immunosuppressive or potentially immunosuppressive therapies
    * avoid the consumption of vitamin D, as well as certain other immunosuppressive foods;
    * avoid as far as possible stress and environmental immune suppression such as radio frequency radiation

The objective of the MP is to safely activate a highly versatile defense, the innate immune response.




Furthermore  

in 


 .frequent question.
Sometimes a person decides the MP “does not work” for them ….but it is very likely that MP is working 'too well' at the time, with great quantities of cytokines being produced by death of microbes

in 

.Hormonal adjustments.
The most common reason that patients who begin the Marshall Protocol incorrectly assume that they are suffering from side effects of olmesartan is that they mistakenly attribute the hormonal adjustments that accompany the onset of a olmesartan blockade to side effects of the drug......This adjustment often causes temporary neurological-type symptoms such as (but not limited to) fatigue, dizziness, headache, photosensitivity, irritability, sleep disturbances, brain fog


in 
.response rates.

I tried my best to be unbiased as I was expecting to see about a 20% improvement in health of members, or in other words a 20-25% success rate.    ..........................................................................................     What we who are a part of this forum, who stuck with the protocol long enough, who endured the IP and were able to keep a doctor, report is that this has a better than 50% success rate. Not just a 10% or the 20% I hoped for


see also other benefits of Olmesartan in
independent Olmesartan research

by entering the PMID of a research paper into
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?  

Last edited on Mon Jun 10th, 2019 02:56 by Sallie Q

Prof Trevor Marshall
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I would say:  40mg doses every 4-6 hours

You would be surprised how many people would prefer to take double doses twice a day in hope that would work...

I would suspect the exposure to light is far less important than controlling exposure to RF radiation. Yes, I know that complicates things, but...


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I know that 11 ng/ml and below for serum 25D is the therapeutic range, but my experience is that there is more immune activation with levels below that, increasing significantly with lowering levels, likely in an 'S' curve.

mvanwink5
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I tried my best to be unbiased as I was expecting to see about a 20% improvement in health of members, or in other words a 20-25% success rate. .......................................................................................... What we who are a part of this forum, who stuck with the protocol long enough, who endured the IP and were able to keep a doctor, report is that this has a better than 50% success rate. Not just a 10% or the 20% I hoped for
This was before identifying and addressing RF which suppresses the immune system and itself causes symptoms, plus directly effects the Microbiome.

I wonder what the success rate would be now with the same study?

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MP in a nutshell


At its essence, the MP involves five key elements, each of which is supported by the latest insights in molecular science.
MP patients must:

  1. take a minimum 40mg olmesartan (Benicar) every 4-6 hours;
  2. avoid as far as possible stress and environmental immune suppression such as radio frequency radiation;   
  3. avoid the consumption of vitamin D, as well as certain other immunosuppressive foods;  
  4. wean off any immunosuppressive or potentially immunosuppressive therapies;
  5. manage exposure to light, depending on blood levels of vitamin D and photosensitivity (if experienced)

The objective of the MP is to safely activate a highly versatile defense, the innate immune response.

mvanwink5
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The critical marker is serum 25D level needs to be below 11 ng/ml and the lower it is below this the more active the immune system becomes in an 'S' curve manner.



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