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So Neurons are not just computer-logic-gates...
 Moderated by: Prof Trevor Marshall
 

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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Fri Oct 20th, 2017 03:43

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New paper in Nature Scientific Reports that sub-millimetre microwaves (Terahertz) are involved in the movement of Tubulin within cells, and that this seems to be associated with Anesthesia, and by implication, consciousness.

This turns what we thought we knew about Neurology upside down. Many see the Neuron as a 'decision element', but it is clear we have to stop underestimating the complexity and importance of Neurons. Maybe so many axons are only terminated at one end because they are excited by waves? Heaven forbid!

http://www.newswise.com/articles/consciousness-depends-on-tubulin-vibrations-inside-neurons-anesthesia-study-suggests

pdf of study:
http://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-09992-7.pdf


Here is an earlier study on cell to cell communication using microtubules:

http://www.nature.com/news/how-the-internet-of-cells-has-biologists-buzzing-1.22645


Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Fri Oct 20th, 2017 04:05

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Here is a bit more info on tubulin, one of the components of microtubules. Note that it changes shape in the GHz range (nanosecond time scale on the simulations), so it would (IMO) be susceptible to electromagnetic fields in that frequency range too.

https://twitter.com/mcer33/status/911321196880433152

..Trevor..

Edward Plum
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 Posted: Sun Oct 22nd, 2017 09:59

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Prof Trevor Marshall wrote: New paper in Nature Scientific Reports that sub-millimetre microwaves (Terahertz) are involved in the movement of Tubulin within cells, and that this seems to be associated with Anesthesia, and by implication, consciousness.

This turns what we thought we knew about Neurology upside down. Many see the Neuron as a 'decision element', but it is clear we have to stop underestimating the complexity and importance of Neurons. Maybe so many axons are only terminated at one end because they are excited by waves? Heaven forbid!




This is totally beyond me. But am I right when I guess that the impact of waves may have an even greater impact than expected and that shielding will be even more important? I get the feeling I am like an alien on this earth (ET).

Edward



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 Posted: Mon Oct 23rd, 2017 01:19

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:):):)



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lorenzo von matterhorn
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 Posted: Mon May 7th, 2018 20:50

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Does that mean Sir Roger Penrose is probably right about quantum mechanics being necessary for consciousness?



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Tue May 8th, 2018 00:53

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Well, the statement "quantum mechanics being necessary for consciousness" means nothing to me. Quantum mechanics is a method of description, and consciousness exists without us being able to describe it. Do you have the words he actually said?

lorenzo von matterhorn
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 Posted: Tue May 8th, 2018 09:05

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Sorry. He theorised a long time ago that quantum coherence takes place in protein structures called “microtubules”.


"Penrose determined wave function collapse was the only possible physical basis for a non-computable process. Dissatisfied with its randomness, Penrose proposed a new form of wave function collapse that occurred in isolation and called it objective reduction. He suggested each quantum superposition has its own piece of spacetime curvature and that when these become separated by more than one Planck length they become unstable and collapse.[19] Penrose suggested that objective reduction represented neither randomness nor algorithmic processing but instead a non-computable influence in spacetime geometry from which mathematical understanding and, by later extension, consciousness derived.[19]"

Last edited on Tue May 8th, 2018 09:13 by lorenzo von matterhorn



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Tue May 8th, 2018 09:11

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I wasn't aware of that hypothesis. Actually, if quantum coherence takes place in an entity as complex as a human body, I would expect it to be more widespread.

We do know that electromagnetic signals between molecules are probably capable of having an affect on surrounding molecules based on the binding of one of them :)

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 Posted: Tue May 8th, 2018 09:55

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http://nautil.us/issue/47/consciousness/roger-penrose-on-why-consciousness-does-not-compute

When you think about it, if the universe is non deterministic then for a conscious intelligence to exercise free will it must be able to alter the probability density of matter, or at the very least of energy which then alters the state of matter.  While discoveries in quantum biology are thus far minimal a picture is nonetheless emerging of coherence in biological systems, which suggests that Roger Penrose may be right - although I freely admit to being prejudiced by the belief that I do exercise independent thought.

Nine years ago I was incapable of independent thought or even basic arithmetic, but after eight years of olmesartan I can think about quantum mechanics again (although not with the clarity of twenty years ago, my body is wracked with pain).

Sadly I think the theories of quantum states making time travel possible are absurd, otherwise I would be working on a machine to send back to the year 1945 and programmed to shoot dead every mrs. Clinton living in the town of Hope Ar. before she can give birth to the evil that would cause so much human suffering on its incarnation.



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Tue May 8th, 2018 10:13

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I would not be so definite as to say "Roger Penrose might be right" as "right" implies a definity which we are arguing against. :)

Anticipating stochastic events is not at all an easy task :) But you are thinking along the correct pathways..

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 Posted: Wed May 9th, 2018 09:09

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Makes me think of Thomas W. Campbell who seems to think along those pathways too.

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 Posted: Thu May 10th, 2018 09:43

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and if the pathway is to be distinctive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penrose_tiling
:cool:



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Ron
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 Posted: Thu May 10th, 2018 22:08

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"Mathematical Structure for Electromagnetic Frequencies that May Reflect Pilot Waves of Bohm’s Implicate Order"

http://file.scirp.org/Html/5-7503432_83681.htm

This paper mentions Quantum Mechanics in relation to microtubules and a lot more stuff that seems to be of importance. :cool:

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 Posted: Tue Feb 19th, 2019 03:30

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Neuroscientists Say They've Found an Entirely New Form of Neural Communication

Scientists think they've identified a previously unknown form of neural communication that self-propagates across brain tissue, and can leap wirelessly from neurons in one section of brain tissue to another – even if they've been surgically severed.



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Tue Feb 19th, 2019 04:12

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"Wirelessly"? as in 4G/5G Wireless???

  Well, fancy that!

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 Posted: Fri May 24th, 2019 23:18

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Perhaps cell signaling is not through waves, but through nanowires.

Press release:
Scientists discover signalling circuit boards inside body's cells

Signals that tell the cell what to do were thought to be transmitted in waves and the frequency of the waves was the crucial part of the message.

Researchers at the University of Edinburgh found information is carried across a web of guide wires that transmit signals across tiny, nanoscale distances.


Here's the paper:
The cell-wide web coordinates cellular processes by directing site-specific Ca2+ flux across cytoplasmic nanocourses



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Sat May 25th, 2019 07:36

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The problem with that concept is that every molecule is affect by EM radiation, and Calcium metabolism is way downstream of that. By trying to mould a new understanding around a poorly understood, but comforting, old concept is a failing we often see these days in research papers. Scientists have to be ready to let everything go, and try to form new models which better describe the failure patients are actually experiencing, rather than the glossy image of Medicine still being on track.

The paper a few days ago showing chronic disease among Millennials is running at 54%, and that once past 27yo, it is all downhill, should be a wake-up call for anybody thinking Medicine is doing a good job, and that its models of human metabolism are accurate...

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 Posted: Sat May 25th, 2019 07:58

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Prof Trevor Marshall wrote: Scientists have to be ready to let everything go, and try to form new models which better describe the failure patients are actually experiencing, rather than the glossy image of Medicine still being on track.

Where's that like-button when you need it..? :P:dude:


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