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New DNA research 'clutches at straws'
 Moderated by: Prof Trevor Marshall
 

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Frans
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 Posted: Wed Jun 6th, 2007 23:54

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Trevor, I just read this piece:

- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6724369.stm

I am wondering about something.

They state here that they screended the whole genome, but which DNA do these kind of researchers normally investigate ?

Is it the DNA in the stem cells ? Or from other cells ?

Since we know DNA per cell will be changed by th1 disease, isn't his shooting at a moving target ?

I don't know which genes they found, the article doesn't say that.

Sincerely, Frans



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Thu Jun 7th, 2007 03:57

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Frans,
The BBC left out a key factoid which is in the Reuters report:
The overall increase in risk of disease conferred by the various genetic risk factors was between 1.2 and 1.5 times, suggesting routine testing is not worthwhilehttp://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSL0690193120070606

So we are not talking about any 'smoking guns' here. Rather about 'clutching at straws.' There is so much noise in the results, so much randomness, and yet the researchers are still making bold claims about weak correlations.

This is the sad thing about medicine these days. Researchers feel the need to justify the money being spent on a study which gives poor results by over-hyping weak conclusions.

I don't know which tissues were tested, and, as you indicate, it would be very important to a better understanding their result, given that everybody is carrying a greater or lesser load of Th1 pathogens these days.
 

Ames
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 Posted: Thu Jun 7th, 2007 06:26

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i read a similar article this morning in the Times...

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/07/health/07disease.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Obviously as you said, they are desperately trying to make connections between similar mutuations, when really they are just looking at a genetic mess created by succesive mutation?

When it comes down to it, looking at the DNA of these patients is pretty useless right?

What they should be looking for is the L form bacteria CAUSING the mutations!

Would it be possible to help me better understand what happens to our DNA as we get rid of our L form bacteria while on the MP?

Thanks!

Amy



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Thu Jun 7th, 2007 14:11

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Amy,
I am sure you have seen the new 'perspective' I posted earlier today:)
http://www.marshallprotocol.com/forum39/9348.html

The issue is not just what happens to the host DNA, but what happens as the host tries to adapt to the host of foreign proteins and biochemicals which are being secreted by the pathogens.

Please take a look at
"Nucleotide sequence and characterization of the gene for secreted alkaline phosphatase from Lysobacter enzymogenes"
http://tinyurl.com/34q9hn  PMID: 1856159

Now imagine what happens in the human body as these bacterial alkaline phosphatases mix with those secreted by the host. Perhaps some will be able to substitute for some functions of the host's versions, others will not. However, the expression of genes by the host becomes a very haphazard and complicated affair.

Indeed, it is the change of expression in genes during an infection which outweighs mutational changes in the DNA. See, for example,
"Using a cDNA microarray to study cellular gene expression altered by Mycobacterium tuberculosis"
http://www.cmj.org/Periodical/paperlist.asp?id=LW9156&linkintype=pubmed
There were 25 known genes showing up-regulated expression and 341 known genes showing down-regulated expression in infected cells. In addition, 97 new genes were also influenced by M.tuberculosis infection.

The human body has sophisticated, and largely unknown, mechanisms for DNA-repair. Ii can be expected that these mechanisms, too, will be affected by the flood of metabolites from the persistent pathogens.

It is not generally appreciated that the bacterial organisms produce many metabolites which are remarkably similar to those of homo sapiens. The problems caused by the alkaline phosphatases fades into obscurity when all the metabolites from the 1000-10,000 genes in a typical bacterial genome start to be considered:)

I hope this helps:)
 

Ames
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 Posted: Thu Jun 7th, 2007 14:26

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Extremely helpful, thank you!

Trevor, I literally got giddy while reading your statements about capnine. It's amazing to be part of a complete, absolute revolution in medicine. Congratulations!!

Regarding the discussion in this thread...

I'm interested in DNA repair throughout the MP process. As bacteria are killed off in a cell, what happens to the host DNA? After many years on the MP, what can we expect our DNA to look like? Will we still pass on any mutated DNA to our children?

Thanks!

Amy



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Prof Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Thu Jun 7th, 2007 14:38

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I don't know whether you will pass on any mutated DNA to your children, although I rather doubt it. However I am sure that for the first time in many generations, your maternal line will not be starting your kids off in life with a load of pathogens which will haunt them, determining their good times, bad times, and their longevitity...

Did you see the message which Sam posted the other day?
http://tinyurl.com/2brdfe
 

Ames
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 Posted: Thu Jun 7th, 2007 15:12

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Wow...congrat to Sam!

I like to think that if my future husband and I were to both undergo MP therapy for a lengthy amount of time, we could have the "golden child", one of the most healthy babies in history.

It's sort of a dream, and I say it in a joking way...but I'm actually serious!

I can see it now.....always beaming, never crying, extremely intelligent and perceptive...

But I have been wondering lately if any bacterially induced mutations in my DNA would be permanent....making the child more suceptible to infection.

In any case, I'm thinking WAY to far ahead. Right now I have other fish to fry!



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jcwat101
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 Posted: Thu Jun 7th, 2007 15:43

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I did notice from Frans' link that they found one mutation related to:

<<The team also unexpectedly found a process known as autophagy - a process of clearing bacteria from within cells - is important in the development of Crohn's disease. >>

I hope that makes them think about the role of intracellular bacteria  :)

Joyce Waterhouse



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